Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 1

Little_Boots wrote:undefined
@panki

Yea and even better was that guy was framed and I remember being all "omg is no one gonna talk about this"!! Haha it was really interesting. I find it very difficult to believe they didnt get ideas from the EU. However Pablo says they didn't so I dont know

Why does it say undefined thats weird O_o

@Little_Boots

I deleted my post and added it to a previous post to avoid double posting

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Mana wrote:hmm...I don't know how much we should look into the EU to predict what they are going for in the sequel trilogy. Both JJ and Daisy said that they weren't taking anything from materials from the expanded universe...they're telling a completely new story...

@Mana

Maybe they meant a "new story" in regards to the movies and what the GA has seen. But when you compare it to the EU, there's a lot of similarities, which the writers more than likely took inspiration from:

Hero/Villain romance + redemption arc = Reylo in the movies, Basitla Shan/Darth Revan, Luke/Mara, Garen Marek/Juno Eclipse etc in EU.
Han and Leia's son turning to the dark side and killing a family member = Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren and killing Han in the ST, Jacen Solo becoming Darth Caedus and killing Mara in EU.
Force Bond - Revan and Bastila in EU, Reylo in movies (if true)
Han and Rey's father/daughter relationship is similar to Han and his daughter Jaina.
Questioning of the use of the force and whether you can use both the light and the dark side = Snoke believes Kylo Ren to be the embodiment of both, and Jacen Solo questioned this and went on a personal journey to see if he could do it. It's possible that they could use this storyline for Episode VIII.

That's all I can remember at the minute, I'm sure I'll think of more when I'm less tired .

@AppleCrumble122

those are all inspirations....you could say they drew inspirations from the EU, but even Pablo said, neither JJ nor Lawrence were familiar with the EU when they wrote the story

Mana wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Mana wrote:hmm...I don't know how much we should look into the EU to predict what they are going for in the sequel trilogy. Both JJ and Daisy said that they weren't taking anything from materials from the expanded universe...they're telling a completely new story...

@Mana

Maybe they meant a "new story" in regards to the movies and what the GA has seen. But when you compare it to the EU, there's a lot of similarities, which the writers more than likely took inspiration from:

Hero/Villain romance + redemption arc = Reylo in the movies, Basitla Shan/Darth Revan, Luke/Mara, Garen Marek/Juno Eclipse etc in EU.
Han and Leia's son turning to the dark side and killing a family member = Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren and killing Han in the ST, Jacen Solo becoming Darth Caedus and killing Mara in EU.
Force Bond - Revan and Bastila in EU, Reylo in movies (if true)
Han and Rey's father/daughter relationship is similar to Han and his daughter Jaina.
Questioning of the use of the force and whether you can use both the light and the dark side = Snoke believes Kylo Ren to be the embodiment of both, and Jacen Solo questioned this and went on a personal journey to see if he could do it. It's possible that they could use this storyline for Episode VIII.

That's all I can remember at the minute, I'm sure I'll think of more when I'm less tired .

@AppleCrumble122

those are all inspirations....you could say they drew inspirations from the EU, but even Pablo said, neither JJ nor Lawrence were familiar with the EU when they wrote the story

@Mana

I did say that . And personally I think Pablo is lying to avoid the wrath of the hardcore EU fans.

I believe Pablo when he said JJ and Larry knew nothing about the EU, its his job to advise them on the lore of Star Wars as he is a 'loremaster'...

I have already written that Star Wars is Myth, and because of that it is too late in the narrative  for Rey Random or Somebody important we have never met. Now I am going to address the other element that ST is Soap.
 
“People don’t actually realize it’s actually a soap opera and it’s all about family problems — it’s not about spaceships.” George Lucas
 
 
Soaps are daytime saga's but unlike Star Wars they are not sci fi myth. Instead Soaps are dealing with more real world issues in an everyday context. However, what they do have in common are Core Families i.e. Skywalkers & Legacy Characters Kenobi
 
 
Core Family – Most soap operas are not made up of individual characters, they are made up of two or more core families. Sometimes what are the core families change over the years and new families are written in or out
  
 
Legacy Character – Although this is an incredibly soft term and seems to be used different ways by different people, a true legacy character is one that actually was born on the show. Other people use it to describe a member of aer core family or even someone who has merely been on the show a long time. These are considerable weakening of a term that is almost exclusive to soap operas. Only on a long running soap or possibly a science fiction franchise with multiple outlets do you have the possibility of literally knowing a character from cradle to grave in real time (with allowances made for SORAS-ing) I have not included “sudden” children that were rewritten into the soap’s history
 

There are obvious reasons the writers prefer to deal with Core families and Legacy characters there is a deep history to mine of relationships, situations and just plain drama. Some situations just write themselves.
 
Actors love this deep history also it gives context to what they are doing.  Every actor in a soap WANTS to be a core family legacy character it almost guarantees then job security and character longevity. Every actor on a soap wants their character to have children because it is almost a lifetime job guarantee. Children and grandchildren work better in a family context.The audience loves core families and legacy characters it makes the audience feel a part of it all. They know the history sometimes better than the writers.
 
What they have created for Obi Wan Kenobi is a legacy descendant , Sir Alec deserves this and so does Ewan. Ewan put the PT on his back and carried it. Almost in a way mirroring Obi Wan’s role to the OT & PT itself, life truly imitated art.Now Kenobi will be a core family expanding ST but at the same time mining its deep history with a character and family that the AUDIENCE has a RELATIONSHIP WITH. Instead of people heretofore unknown.

@panki

Another soap term retcon... tptb can retcon cannon anytime tptb want to create a family for Obi Wan.

Mana wrote:yes, they've certainly drawn a lot of inspiration from the EU..but I don't think we should expect to find tales of Rey's relatives anywhere in the EU...JJ really wants to tell a fresh and new story...you could say Ben was inspired by Jacen Solo, but their stories and backgrounds are extremely different, and Ben most certainly won't share the fate of Jacen...

@Mana

Not to mention Luke's son was also called Ben . Ugh, I personally disliked what they did with Jacen and the Legacy of the Force books (who turned Han and Leia into such idiots!) in general. Despite the epic and conflicted journey Jacen went in the New Jedi Order series, what made him fully turn dark was too similar to Anakin - he saw a vision that threatened the lives of his lover and child. After all that great development, he just became an evil dictator and nothing else in my opinion - very little inner conflict and zero interest. Also everyone (apart from Luke I think) resolved to kill him for his crimes, and didn't offer him a chance a redemption - which goes against the theme of SW. Thankfully we now have Kylo Ren, who is ten times more interesting!

Mana wrote:I believe Pablo when he said JJ and Larry knew nothing about the EU, its his job to advise them on the lore of Star Wars as he is a 'loremaster'...

@Mana

Fair enough .

I thought Pablo was specifically referring to the Jacen and Jaina story...not the whole EU in the context of TFA....I don't remember the exact tweet.

It is a retcon....but in the contet of TFA, even if PH says JJ and Larry know nothing of the EU there are too many coincidences between the new canon materials and the EU to just dismiss it as a coincidence....there are too many callbacks to old events and several characters to call it a completely new story....for all we know, they're just saying this as a disclaimer to avoid antagonizing old fans.

I like Obi-wan Kenobi but unless they reveal some new information, I find it hard to believe he has a direct descendant based on what materials have been released so far...Everything I have seen and read point to him being only the spiritual guide of all three trilogies. Rey's dark side propensities cannot just be dismissed.

Pablo said that about whether Rey and Kylo were 'inspired by revan and Bastila'. The visual similarities would certainly make it an odd coincidence, although I think he is being honest when he says the story will not be the same. @panki you are right, though, there's no way the EU has just not been looked at for this stuff - even if to make sure that they're not repeating the exact same plots. It still has to feel like Star Wars, even if they bring new elements in. He just can't say stuff is from the eu because then it's confusing as to how that's legend now rather than canon. People might then get their hopes up to see certain characters in coming movies and that.

BastilaBey wrote:Pablo said that about whether Rey and Kylo were 'inspired by revan and Bastila'. The visual similarities would certainly make it an odd coincidence, although I think he is being honest when he says the story will not be the same. @panki you are right, though, there's no way the EU has just not been looked at for this stuff - even if to make sure that they're not repeating the exact same plots. It still has to feel like Star Wars, even if they bring new elements in. He just can't say stuff is from the eu because then it's confusing as to how that's legend now rather than canon. People might then get their hopes up to see certain characters in coming movies and that.

@BastilaBey

Thanks.....I forgot which story PH was talking about....

I have the same view on Obi-Wan having a child as I do with Luke: it just feels off. Back when TFA came out and people debated Rey Skywalker, I couldn't reconcile this with what we've seen of Luke in RoTJ, someone who just seemed detached and above it all somehow, despite his youth. I couldn't imagine him hooking up with anyone. Obi-Wan to me pretty much felt the same in all four movies he appeared in. Now of course that wouldn't stop the writers from giving him an offspring if they really wanted to, but it's my personal strong impression.

for me if rey a kenobi it will be more poetic and fit ring theory than any other lineage but if she from dark side origin or from non legacy character it will be parallel to ren origin like yin yang thing. I wish she both kenobi and from the darkside origin but im not really sure lucasfilm will go this direction. Actually i can accept whoever her parents are as long its not solo or skywalker and i hope her parent will be put more weight to her journey because so far she just a girl with the force who dont have any other choice than to help the resistance now.

i hope the story about her parent is more layered and complicated not just when it revealed who her parent are or they have died and she just move on and forgetting the past . I hope maybe like ezra in rebel where she want justice for them and it will be more interesting if turned out the resistance maybe the new republic or luke is the cause of her parent dead it will be parallel ren too in some way because she fight for the new republic/resistance and turn out her parents are fighting for empire/first order

With ren they have purposefully made him connect with his grand father

In parallel, this naturally makes me link Rey with her possible grandfather and I don't think they did this by accident

Again the parallels between ren an rey automatically make me wonder who her grandfather is

Little_Boots wrote:@Gemini Kylo says this in the film. After he says "at night desperate to sleep" he pauses..... And says "you imagine an ocean". Dreams aren't mentioned so in my view it wasn't a dream. Then again it might be a dream, I'm just saying I'm sure the word dream wasn't mentioned. It might not be Luke's Island. It could be just something she imagines to help her get to sleep since the statement before was she is desperate to sleep.

@Little_Boots

Yeah sorry I remembered he said imagined right after I left and went to bed haha

Saracene wrote:I have the same view on Obi-Wan having a child as I do with Luke: it just feels off. Back when TFA came out and people debated Rey Skywalker, I couldn't reconcile this with what we've seen of Luke in RoTJ, someone who just seemed detached and above it all somehow, despite his youth. I couldn't imagine him hooking up with anyone. Obi-Wan to me pretty much felt the same in all four movies he appeared in. Now of course that wouldn't stop the writers from giving him an offspring if they really wanted to, but it's my personal strong impression.

Obi-Wan being Rey's actual blood grandfather would just be so contrived and messy no matter how they explained it in this trilogy, which means we would have to wait for the Obi-Wan standalone movie to flesh out the details (even though it's been repeatedly stated by those at the top that the standalone movies have nothing to do with the major trilogies).

The fact is they need to give Rey a satisfying backstory in this story first, one that explains why her family never came back, why they left her on Jakku and why she can't remember anything about them. Revealing the secrets of Rey's past is already going to take a decent amount of screen-time, but Obi-Wan being her grandfather would require two generations of exposition in order to connect Obi-Wan to Rey. It would be like "All this stuff happened to your family, dark side parents, abandonment, Snoke was after you, blah blah, also Obi-Wan Kenobi is your grandfather."

I'm also among the camp who thinks it would be out-of-character and unlikely for Obi-Wan to have had a child. I just don't see him that way at all, and he isn't like Han (who needed a legacy son to be brought into the next generation). Obi-Wan is going to live forever in the Force, always remaining a small part of the franchise. He has not been "left behind". He exists in the Force.

Simple fact of the matter is as  already discussed. George Lucas created a relationship for OBI during Clone Wars that gives us the possibility that Obi Wan loved a woman passionately. He is capable of that.... That is canon. 

The Obi Wan stand alone is definitely coming. LF loves Ewan and Ewan loves the ST franchise and he is so excited right now, almost like he knows something.( like Obi Wan is  grandpa something)  (yes that is wild speculation and tea leave reading on my part, but I am in sales and I see and hear "buy signals") 

Look at this beautiful cinnamon roll!   Of course he is Rey's grandpa,  she is his perfect cinnamon roll match

Rey Kenobi is built into the TFA narrative cake... to late to take her out now. We can disagree or agree but here are the facts established as George Lucas the creator himself has commented how he put together his saga. 

1. Star Wars is myth - As heroes in myth function or ( random hero introductions) brand new heroes narratives begin when they are babies or very small children. i.e. Moses, Harry Potter, or Anakin. Legacy mystery heroes narratives can begin as adults but you get to know their identity through special gifts, talents and traits that mirror their ancestors. It is too late to start the Rey Random Somebody we never met story, the first part of the trilogy is over. 

2. Star Wars is a soap in space. - Legacy Characters and Core families are narrative staples... because of audience familiarity and the deep history to mine for the writers. Some situations simply write themselves when you are dealing with inter generational drama and heritage. 

3. Ring Composition, It is poetry it rhymes. this is the narrative structure of the ST Saga. ESB is perfectly symmetrical, Kasdan wrote ESB Kasdan wrote TFA.. Ring Comp is not some conspiracy theory thought up by the Internets. 

4. OT, PT  Kenobi is the most intergral character in both trilogies. This has already been proven by a statistician. Yes, the math has been done on that  http://www.vocativ.com/262505/visualized-how-obi-wan-kenobi-rules-the-star-wars-universe/



5. JJ used call backs exclusively to give us Rey's narrative. "Show not tell." It was Rian who late in the game threw in the vision. So we the audience  can refer to this call backs to decipher WHO Rey is. They are not there "just because" " reasons"  they are call backs with a purpose. 

6.. Head fake red herring call backs, JJ has an MO with this for sure, he throws in random visuals or random call backs that actually go nowhere and don't support the narrative but when you look deeper at the REAL call back for Rey it is always narrative Kenobi things she is actually doing. Even in the vision this rhythm is there. You here random force users, Luke, Yoda, Darth breathing, Palps, but Kenobi is the only one talking to her calling her name and actually making a coherent thought.

 If you watch the Whole trilogy in order in one sitting you realize that TFA is missing a Kenobi. A film that is a pastiche to OT & PT can not NOT have a Kenobi or it would not be a "pastiche" But when you break down Rey's real call backs, you realize Kenobi was hidden in plain sight.

spacebaby45678 wrote:Simple fact of the matter is as  already discussed. George Lucas created a relationship for OBI during Clone Wars that gives us the possibility that Obi Wan loved a woman passionately. He is capable of that.... That is canon. 

The Obi Wan stand alone is definitely coming. LF loves Ewan and Ewan loves the ST franchise and he is so excited right now, almost like he knows something.( like Obi Wan is  grandpa something)  (yes that is wild speculation and tea leave reading on my part, but I am in sales and I see and hear "buy signals") 

Look at this beautiful cinnamon roll!   Of course he is Rey's grandpa,  she is his perfect cinnamon roll match

@spacebaby45678

When he was asked about tfa, he made a smile just like a proud grandpa

Maria Antonietta wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:Simple fact of the matter is as  already discussed. George Lucas created a relationship for OBI during Clone Wars that gives us the possibility that Obi Wan loved a woman passionately. He is capable of that.... That is canon. 

The Obi Wan stand alone is definitely coming. LF loves Ewan and Ewan loves the ST franchise and he is so excited right now, almost like he knows something.( like Obi Wan is  grandpa something)  (yes that is wild speculation and tea leave reading on my part, but I am in sales and I see and hear "buy signals") 

Look at this beautiful cinnamon roll!   Of course he is Rey's grandpa,  she is his perfect cinnamon roll match

@spacebaby45678

When he was asked about tfa, he made a smile just like a proud grandpa

@Maria Antonietta

I'd like Rey to be Kenobi but only if it's done right...she can be his grand niece, maybe he had a brother, it would be easier to explain..i don't know...i'm not objective about this because i like Obi Wan too much If they're not related he can still appear and talk to her as a ghost. He does look like he knows something in that video

@bela.mesecina he knows everything!!!

Maria Antonietta wrote:@bela.mesecina he knows everything!!!

@Maria Antonietta

Yes he does! It is so obvious, he can barely contain himself. 

Man, Obi-Wan being Rey's grandfather would be the most poetic thing EVER!

I don't know how they could pull it off and have it make sense, but if they could...

Why does it feel off to that he would have a child? He has a canon love interest

Gemini wrote:Why does it feel off to that he would have a child? He has a canon love interest

@Gemini

I know he has and i would love to see it, but i don't know how would they explain it..Maybe at the very end of trilogy

Gemini wrote:Why does it feel off to that he would have a child? He has a canon love interest

@Gemini

Obi Wan had a love interest in the EU also, Siri Tachi,  



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Siri_Tachi