Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 1

I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

FWIW, Leia getting outed as Vader's daughter was sort of a fluke occurrence.

Bloodline spoiler:

@ISeeAnIsland

Ah, gotcha. I'm still on my library's waiting list to read it.

Spoiler:

@snufkin

Bloodline spoiler:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor  him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

@Mrs Ben Solo
I'm not convinced either, but I'm far from against it. I like it well enough. I found that the more evidence I heard the more I was starting to dislike it, so I decided to step away and just let it happen if it's meant to happen. I've expressed my doubt about it a bunch of times, but even so my reaction to Rey Kenobi would still be like:



Or maybe:



I presume it would be done well, and that's all I want. A good story. I also find the major evidence shaky at best, but that is just my opinion. I don't see it yet. I could come around to it in like five seconds flat.

Anyway, this stuff probably belongs in the lineage thread.

I'd be really surprised if Rey being a descendent of Obi-Wan is a holdover from whatever master plan GL already had on the books. Or at least that's my snap judgement because he appeared on television here in the U.S. and was slightly graceless in his response to what had been done to his characters. Not to mention the backhanded "it's what the fans would've wanted" comment after seeing it.

It's been interesting and surprising non-drama having the back story of some of TFA's "making things right" included finally following through with Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan's wished scenarios for the characters in RotJ. Also Mark Hamill's if "Luke goes a little crazy/dark" happens. That's also come out a little in stories about the 'divorce' with producer Gary Kurtz after ESB

Original Star Wars producer explains what went wrong after Empire Strikes Back

Kurtz also explains how Return Of The Jedi would have ended originally, in the outline that Lucas and he had come up with before Lucas decided to change everything to make it more of an upbeat toy-selling vehicle.

@ISeeAnIsland

Spoiler:

From my understanding of things being said gathered together. kiras  story is the same from when Lucas left them the treatments. The changes happened with Jedi killer and Sam.

Pretty sure Sam was originally Luke's son.

Not anymore though hence the anger from Lucas. Lucas always wants a skywalker fighting beside a kenobi in his stories it seems, starting out as kindred spirits. However ST is changing the formula slightly. It's not starting that way.

Look at the possible stage names given to the early concepts

Kira Kenobi?

Sam Skywalker?

Sam skywalker is no more and look at hardcore fan reaction to the lack of a Luke child. Lucas was right in that sense I think.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor  him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I'm not a huge fan of filling in gaps, that's the writers responsibility in the next two episodes.

My thought process and understanding of who she is comes mainly from TFA and film language, in terms of recurring themes, cinematic direction and choices made by JJ Abrams. I can see how they would possibly choose to explore the Rey kenobi explanation in the films from what is presented to us in TFA vision sequence.

It would work very easily and not be convoluted if Kylo Ren gets a vision through Obi Wans lightsaber when he was relic hunting.

I try to back up what I'm saying with solid things we have seen. We have Star Wars Twitter deciding to draw attention to the path of obi wans saber and then the following week, the path of anakins saber.

It's not reaching to assume he may have found obi wans lightsaber because he appears to be holding it in the rain and he appears to immediately see a vision of who is connected to that saber. I'm basing this on what TFA is presenting to us. visions through sabers is a theme set up TFA and I don't think it's something unique to anakins saber and Rey.

Why the lack of showing this saber clearly in his hand in TFA vision? is it because it's something rian wants to explore later instead? Just like other parts cut from the vision like Maz stealing the saber from ren is something to be explored later. They had no fear presenting the future in this vision. It's things delving into back stories and past events they decided to remove in TFA.

To remove it for future plot point purposes makes sense and this seems to be what happened with other parts of that sequence. The saber he is holding, he wrenches from the ground in the novel after a fight which appears to be in the past. I dont think it's Luke's. So why else would he be holding a random lightsaber and appeating to have a vision, unless they are going to explore how relics attached to people show you things about the history of that relic and connections? It seems vaders helmet did it once too.

Vaders helmet appears to be what stopped anakin reemerging(Pablo when talking about Ashoka and anakin)

So I think Vaders essence actually reached out to kylo ren when he first touched that helmet and showed him the power of the darkside

I remember reading originally in the concepts that they wanted to have a Vader/anakin force ghost with split personalities reaching out

Gemini wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor  him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I'm not a huge fan of filling in gaps, that's the writers responsibility in the next two episodes.

My thought process and understanding of who she is comes mainly from TFA and film language, in terms of recurring themes, cinematic direction and choices made by JJ Abrams. I can see how they would possibly choose to explore the Rey kenobi explanation in the films from what is presented to us in TFA vision sequence.

It would work very easily and not be convoluted if Kylo Ren gets a vision through Obi Wans lightsaber when he was relic hunting.

I try to back up what I'm saying with solid things we have seen. We have Star Wars Twitter deciding to draw attention to the path of obi wans saber and then the following week, the path of anakins saber.

It's not reaching to assume he may have found obi wans lightsaber because he appears to be holding it in the rain and he appears to immediately see a vision of who is connected to that saber. I'm basing this on what TFA is presenting to us. visions through sabers is a theme set up TFA and I don't think it's something unique to anakins saber and Rey.

Why the lack of showing this saber clearly in his hand in TFA vision? is it because it's something rian wants to explore later instead? Just like other parts cut from the vision like Maz stealing the saber from ren is something to be explored later. They had no fear presenting the future in this vision. It's things delving into back stories and past events they decided to remove in TFA.

To remove it for future plot point purposes makes sense and this seems to be what happened with other parts of that sequence. The saber he is holding, he wrenches from the ground in the novel after a fight which appears to be in the past. I dont think it's Luke's. So why else would he be holding a random lightsaber and appeating to have a vision, unless they are going to explore how relics attached to people show you things about the history of that relic and connections? It seems vaders helmet did it once too.

Vaders helmet appears to be what stopped anakin reemerging(Pablo when talking about Ashoka and anakin)

So I think Vaders essence actually reached out to kylo ren when he first touched that helmet and showed him the power of the darkside

I remember reading originally in the concepts that they wanted to have a Vader/anakin force ghost with split personalities reaching out

@Gemini

I never saw a tweet where Pablo was discussing Ahoska and Anakin/Vader. Do you have a screenshot of it, or is it recent? Pablo tweets a lot.

I am intrigued by the possibility of Vader's helmet and/or Vader's spirit being corrupted. If Vader was never really fully redeemed, that could be a big reason why Luke has seemingly gone off the rails and why he might feel so unequal to the task if "Corrupt Vader" or "Corrupt Vader helmet" is giving Kylo/Ben bad advice. Until I hear different, I am of the mind that Luke and Ben ran into something very nasty in their travels. The Vader helmet might just be one of the items.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor  him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

@Mrs Ben Solo
I'm not convinced either, but I'm far from against it. I like it well enough. I found that the more evidence I heard the more I was starting to dislike it, so I decided to step away and just let it happen if it's meant to happen. I've expressed my doubt about it a bunch of times, but even so my reaction to Rey Kenobi would still be like:



Or maybe:



I presume it would be done well, and that's all I want. A good story. I also find the major evidence shaky at best, but that is just my opinion. I don't see it yet. I could come around to it in like five seconds flat.

Anyway, this stuff probably belongs in the lineage thread.

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's true for a bunch of people, there are still Reywalkers and reysolos out there

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I've never seen anyone say that about Rey's backstory, either @FrolickingFizzgig and I've picked over a lot of old articles and interviews relating to George Lucas's original treatment and the evolution of the TFA script.

I've only ever found one source for the supposed Obi-Wan Kenobi descendant and I wouldn't say it was 100% reliable.

This is not me being down on the possibility of Rey being a descendant of Obi-Wan, I love that character and would be happy if they could factor  him in somehow, I'm just not convinced as yet. The key evidence supporting the theory seems a little shaky to me and there's a lot of reaching to fill in the gaps.

@Mrs Ben Solo
I'm not convinced either, but I'm far from against it. I like it well enough. I found that the more evidence I heard the more I was starting to dislike it, so I decided to step away and just let it happen if it's meant to happen. I've expressed my doubt about it a bunch of times, but even so my reaction to Rey Kenobi would still be like:



Or maybe:



I presume it would be done well, and that's all I want. A good story. I also find the major evidence shaky at best, but that is just my opinion. I don't see it yet. I could come around to it in like five seconds flat.

Anyway, this stuff probably belongs in the lineage thread.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with this....as long as we get a good story and Rey isn't a Skywalker or a Solo (except by marriage), I'll be happy.

But that being said, after reading Life Debt, I feel that Rey could have Nightsister blood from one parent (and it doesn't have to be Ventress or Talzin... it might be a more ancient bloodline)....... the other parent could be any sith, jedi, other force user, non-FS person, death stick vendor etc.

Gemini wrote:From my understanding of things being said gathered together. kiras  story is the same from when Lucas left them the treatments. The changes happened with Jedi killer and Sam.

Pretty sure Sam was originally Luke's son.

Not anymore though hence the anger from Lucas. Lucas always wants a skywalker fighting beside a kenobi in his stories it seems, starting out as kindred spirits. However ST is changing the formula slightly. It's not starting that way.

Look at the possible stage names given to the early concepts

Kira Kenobi?

Sam Skywalker?

Sam skywalker is no more and look at hardcore fan reaction to the lack of a Luke child. Lucas was right in that sense I think.

@Gemini

Sam = From the Hebrew name שִׁמְשׁוֹן (Shimshon) which meant "sun". Samson was an Old Testament hero granted exceptional strength by God.

Sam was the skywalker legacy I think but Disney done made it kylo ren lol

George Lucas must have had a big change of heart if he intended to give Luke Skywalker any children because his documented comments from the past do not tally with that. He never accepted Luke got married to Mara Jade in the EU and he is on record as saying he envisaged Luke as an Obi-Wan type, handing Excalibur onto a new generation.

As for the Vader concept art from TFA showing a corrupted Anakin/Vader, someone asked Pablo about that once. He said that all kinds of concept art gets done in advance of a movie and that doesn't mean it's going to be used in any way. It could have been his usual obfuscation. I guess he didn't rule out the possibility of it fitting in somewhere in the future. PH has been pretty derisive about people hanging onto stuff from concept art and earlier iterations of the script, though.

George says "what happened to anakins grandchildren?" plural when asking jj questions

You then get jj laughing because they knew that was a jab at what they had done to his treatments and I think he removed another skywalker from the story. I think originally there was supposed to be 2.

Not going to get into the concept art discussion because elements of it are also in TFA and episode 8 still. Often times some of the earliest ideas are the pillars the story is then expanded on.

Pablo has pretty much said that Rey is the character that George  Lucas left them

She is not JJs creation or anyone else's. Meanwhile sam was destroyed and rebuilt and so was Jedi killer.



Her back story has never changed as Daisy has said

Gemini wrote:From my understanding of things being said gathered together. kiras  story is the same from when Lucas left them the treatments. The changes happened with Jedi killer and Sam.

Pretty sure Sam was originally Luke's son.

Not anymore though hence the anger from Lucas. Lucas always wants a skywalker fighting beside a kenobi in his stories it seems, starting out as kindred spirits. However ST is changing the formula slightly. It's not starting that way.

Look at the possible stage names given to the early concepts

Kira Kenobi?

Sam Skywalker?

Sam skywalker is no more and look at hardcore fan reaction to the lack of a Luke child. Lucas was right in that sense I think.

@Gemini
But "Kira" is the female character concept from the Arndt script, not the Lucas treatment. The idea of a female protagonist came from Lucas according to Pablo, but that doesn't mean Kira herself (the scavenger) did. Information about the Lucas script never came out beyond "What happened to Vader's grandchildren?" revealing more than one grandchild and "it's what the fans would have wanted" possibly having something to do with Rey Solo/Skywalker. On the other hand, many seem to infer that Lucas wouldn't have wanted Luke to have children at all based on old interviews in which he reveals that he would have wanted Luke to play an Obi-Wan type character 30-years in the future, a wise old hermit with no wife and no kids. Luke's "future" in the EU with Mara Jade was never considered canon by Lucas partly because that wasn't how he envisioned Luke's character. Lucas seems pretty stuck in his ways, so I personally don't see his opinion changing about something like that.

We don't know that Sam was ever a Skywalker or that Kira was ever a Kenobi. I've only ever seen one source for the possible source for a Kenobi descendant, and it's just a rumour. That does not mean it didn't happen, but there's no reliable documentation that says it did.

I think there's a lot of guesswork about just how similar the three story concepts were (Arndt's, Lucas' and JJ's) even when it's beyond obvious the three were very different, and Arndt went through years of planning and basically getting nowhere (with literally hundreds of unused ideas) until JJ finally took over the script. We don't know what the Lucas script was about, just that there were grandchildren (plural). Jedi Killer wasn't even human for a long time during Arndt's planning of TFA, and I see no reason to think the character concepts overlapped greatly between the Lucas and Arndt treatments. They were different stories with different characters, sharing the fact that they both had a female protagonist.

We don't know how much inspiration JJ ultimately took from Arndt's treatment either, just that certain concepts obviously stuck around and eventually led us to the finished version of TFA with Jedi Killer as the legacy and Kira as the protagonist.

The whole sequence of events is shaky at best. We just don't have the answers. IMO there is a great deal of reaching to fill gaps when it comes with trying to figure out the planning-process that went into TFA over years and treatments by different writers. There is no proof that says Sam was ever a Skywalker or Kira was ever a Kenobi, and Lucas never seemed to be a big fan of the idea of Luke having a love-interest or kids, so I really doubt Sam was a Skywalker. A Solo, perhaps. Kira a Kenobi? Maybe. I guess the alliteration is there.

@Gemini
All Pablo said was that the idea of a female protagonist came from Lucas, not that "Rey" came from Lucas. A female protagonist just means a female protagonist, not a specific character with a defined personality and backstory. Pablo also said that he doubted JJ and KK knew Rey's origins/backstory when they first started writing TFA, just that they knew who she "wasn't." And Daisy said she heard Rey's backstory during the filming of TFA, and that it hasn't changed since then, not that it hasn't changed since ever.

Thing is fizz none of us know if the back story was always there or not right from the get go with Lucas. It seems like Reys story has not changed much at all during any of the process including what Lucas left them with. Sam and Jedi killer went through many changes. Rey, never it seems even from when they took it from Lucas right at the start as it says in the early days concept art section of the book. Kira remained the same right from the start. The start of the process was working from what Lucas gave them and they kept her the same from there.

What's more her earliest concept was mixed race and they were purposefully searching for mixed race girls to play obi wans 20 year old descendent. There is no other young girl in TFA, so this casting call must have been for Rey

Gemini wrote:Thing is fizz none of us know if the back story was always there or not right from the get go with Lucas. It seems like Reys story has not changed much at all during any of the process including what Lucas left them with. Sam and Jedi killer went through many changes. Rey, never it seems even from when they took it from Lucas right at the start as it says in the early days concept art section of the book. Kira remained the same right from the start. The start of the process was working from what Lucas gave them and they kept her the same from there.

What's more her earliest concept was mixed race and they were purposefully searching for mixed race girls to play obi wans  20 year old descendent. There is no other young girl in TFA, so this casting call must have been for Rey

@Gemini
That's what I was trying to say, Gem. There's no point trying to use this stuff as evidence for Rey Kenobi when it's like 80-90% guesswork. I don't know, I find it difficult to work with stuff like this. So many "what ifs".

All Pablo's Tweet tells me is that Lucas' treatment also had a female protagonist. Doesn't mean that female protagonist was identical to Rey.

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