Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 1

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:Not sure why, since it's months old, but the interview with TFA editor is making the rounds on tumblr again and it's interesting to think about the possible reasons why some things got cut, including the little boy Rey saw with Snoke.

http://dauntlesssubconscious.tumblr.com/post/147804335932/gwendy85-starwars-hell-this-is-interesting

Am I correct that some of the vision was altered at Rian's request, or is that in itself another rumor? Wonder if somehow we'll see an alternate version in VIII as we get more of Ben Solo's backstory

@BastilaBey

I am not sure if it has been confirmed as 100% legit, but I remember hearing that the part of the vision featuring little Rey being left on Jakku with Unkar was a last minute addition made on Rian's request.

That interview with TFA's editor is interesting. It also confirms that there's supposed to be a "lost boy" quality to Kylo.

@Kessel89
The only thing I find very annoying about that interview is the fact that people (Reywalkers) kept taking her joke about Rey's origins out-of-context in order to suggest that nobody actually knows the character's backstory, even though Daisy has confirmed on at least 3 separate occasions that she's known since TFA was being filmed and that her history hasn't changed since then. Pablo and JJ have also confirmed that they know. I don't see Daisy of all people jeopardizing her honest reputation by lying repeatedly. But I guess "it's all lies" is the only thing some people have left to latch onto.

@FrolickingFizzgig
The funny thing is that if they really weren't sure who Rey's parents were yet--and I agree they must have had it solidly decided since before filming tfa---but if they were still changing their minds, I think it actually makes it even less likely she would be related to Luke, because that is not something I think they could (or would) play around with as much as other characters like Kenobi or Palpatine, since Luke is in the movies and so close to the central story. The retconning would too messy to risk, I think, even if one is assuming the writers are incompetent.

Also I think she kinda thinks that Maz isn't a pirate anymore just because they took out the line about it (it isn't super clear she says "there was this vague idea she was a space pirate at one point" as if Maz isn't now)? But the visual dictionary says Maz is a pirate...so it is kind of official, that she is a pirate. She might not be very up-to-date on things, so...yeah idk I'm taking her comments as the grain-of-salt kind.

Tangent: I like how she says she thinks Rey is "attracted" to the lightsaber (rather than the lightsaber calling her), that she needs a lightsaber, and that when it shows her its power, she is afraid and doesn't want any part in it. It is just her interpretation but I like it and it is a fresh way of looking at it.

It's refreshing that even the editor of TFA doesn't know anything about it.

jakkusun wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:Not sure why, since it's months old, but the interview with TFA editor is making the rounds on tumblr again and it's interesting to think about the possible reasons why some things got cut, including the little boy Rey saw with Snoke.

http://dauntlesssubconscious.tumblr.com/post/147804335932/gwendy85-starwars-hell-this-is-interesting

Am I correct that some of the vision was altered at Rian's request, or is that in itself another rumor? Wonder if somehow we'll see an alternate version in VIII as we get more of Ben Solo's backstory

@BastilaBey

I am not sure if it has been confirmed as 100% legit, but I remember hearing that the part of the vision featuring little Rey being left on Jakku with Unkar was a last minute addition made on Rian's request.

That interview with TFA's editor is interesting. It also confirms that there's supposed to be a "lost boy" quality to Kylo.

@Kessel89
The only thing I find very annoying about that interview is the fact that people (Reywalkers) kept taking her joke about Rey's origins out-of-context in order to suggest that nobody actually knows the character's backstory, even though Daisy has confirmed on at least 3 separate occasions that she's known since TFA was being filmed and that her history hasn't changed since then. Pablo and JJ have also confirmed that they know. I don't see Daisy of all people jeopardizing her honest reputation by lying repeatedly. But I guess "it's all lies" is the only thing some people have left to latch onto.

@FrolickingFizzgig
The funny thing is that if they really weren't sure who Rey's parents were yet--and I agree they must have had it solidly decided since before filming tfa---but if they were still changing their minds, I think it actually makes it even less likely she would be related to Luke, because that is not something I think they could (or would) play around with as much as other characters like Kenobi or Palpatine, since Luke is in the movies and so close to the central story. The retconning would too messy to risk, I think, even if one is assuming the writers are incompetent.

Also I think she kinda thinks that Maz isn't a pirate anymore just because they took out the line about it (it isn't super clear she says "there was this vague idea she was a space pirate at one point" as if Maz isn't now)? But the visual dictionary says Maz is a pirate...so it is kind of official, that she is a pirate. She might not be very up-to-date on things, so...yeah idk I'm taking her comments as the grain-of-salt kind.

Tangent: I like how she says she thinks Rey is "attracted" to the lightsaber (rather than the lightsaber calling her), that she needs a lightsaber, and that when it shows her its power, she is afraid and doesn't want any part in it. It is just her interpretation but I like it and it is a fresh way of looking at it.

@jakkusun
It reminds me of that one Tweet from Pablo... "They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]." They obviously hadn't come up with her backstory then, but the only reason to decide who she "isn't" right at the beginning is to make up for other plot imperatives (such as the existence of Jedi Killer, who at that point had also become Han and Leia's kid). And deciding who Rey "isn't" speaks for itself. There is an identity that is associated with being a descendant of a known main character. What reason would there be to make it clear that Rey would not be connected to that idea of "identity" unless they knew she could not be a Skywalker or Solo. Other "identities" simply wouldn't have an impact on TFA in particular, therefore the decision would have to be aligned with Skywalker/Solo.

soulluos wrote:It's refreshing that even the editor of TFA doesn't know anything about it.

@soulluos
I agree, it is. It was need-to-know-basis, and in TFA, not many needed to know. The editor does at one point shrug and say she never considered Rey being related to Luke. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was in relation to that one super red-herring line "It was Luke's and his father's before him." She obviously doesn't know what Rey's backstory is, but I would say she (and many others) definitely know who Rey isn't.

It is all grain-of-salt though. She was just doing her job and taking advice from the director when editing.

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

vaderito wrote:

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

@vaderito

And another proof that Rey s origin is not crucial for the core story of ST.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

@vaderito

And another proof that Rey s origin is not crucial for the core story of ST.

@Darth_Awakened
Well, I'm not sure if I would say it proves that. Rey's origin was never going to be crucial to the story of TFA (the first film in the trilogy), and I think they knew that for a long, long time. There would be no reason for them to decide what it was that early on. I actually do expect it to be part of the story, otherwise it wouldn't have so much emphasis within the film itself ("Classified? Me too"). It's very fundamental to the development Rey needs to undergo. Her origins are likely going to be an obstacle she has to overcome. But still, I find it interesting that they knew who she couldn't be related to that early on.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

@vaderito

And another proof that Rey s origin is not crucial for the core story of ST.

@Darth_Awakened

Just wondering where that idea that she and her identity is not important to the core story of Star Wars and TFA comes from? She's the lead. This is what the director of the 3rd movie said about her character and who she is.

I’ve seen all of the theories… What I do know is that we’re going to make sure that that answer is deeply and profoundly satisfying, because Rey is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of The Force Awakens but in the entire galaxy, and she deserves it. So we’ll make sure that that answer is something that feels like it was—it’s something that happened a long time ago [in a galaxy] far, far away, we’re just telling you what happened.

@Gemini Daisy said that. Her parentage isn't a big deal. Who Rey is as herself is more important.

I think that people read into Trevorrow's statement that it means her parentage is some mind blowing reveal and I don't. What's deeply and profoundly satisfying doesn't automatically mean she's a legacy character. It could well mean that she is she.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

@vaderito

And another proof that Rey s origin is not crucial for the core story of ST.

@Darth_Awakened
Well, I'm not sure if I would say it proves that. Rey's origin was never going to be crucial to the story of TFA (the first film in the trilogy), and I think they knew that for a long, long time. There would be no reason for them to decide what it was that early on. I actually do expect it to be part of the story, otherwise it wouldn't have so much emphasis within the film itself ("Classified? Me too"). It's very fundamental to the development Rey needs to undergo. Her origins are likely going to be an obstacle she has to overcome. But still, I find it interesting that they knew who she couldn't be related to that early on.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I get what you saying, but there also Maz words "you know they are not coming back", "the belonging you seek is ahead and not behind" which suggest the notion that this problem is very near to be solved (especially when Rey accepts the call: "a saber").
I do think that whoever Rey is, in the end, is not going to influence the core of the story.
I see ST story about two heroes Kylo and Rey (+Finn with the development of his own and separate from the other two)
It is Skywalker saga after all - and putting too much into the explanation of the Rey origins will require time and unnecessary exposition.
As well, I do not think that the disclosure of Rey s origin will be her main conflict in it (it will be repetitive as well), I think she is going to have completely different kind of challenge in last two movies.
But, hey I could be wrong

I can't even stress how important Rey is to Luke, Leia and Ben solo

Gemini wrote:I can't even stress how important Rey is to Luke, Leia and Ben solo

@Gemini

This!

Rey is the super glue to bring the shattered Skywalker-Solo back together

Rey is George Lucas's character, not JJ,Kasdan,Arndt, or even KK, so the question to contemplate is, would George Lucas write his protagonist as a new character?




Also, interestingly, Mary Ann confirms in this interview that Maz’s lines “if you live long enough you will see the same eyes in different people” was originally said to Rey not Finn.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016/05/editor-maryann-brandon-on-reys-parents-the-original-opening-of-the-force-awakens-how-powerful-is-obi-wan-and-more.html

vaderito wrote:@Gemini Daisy said that. Her parentage isn't a big deal. Who Rey is as herself is more important.

I think that people read into Trevorrow's statement that it means her parentage is some mind blowing reveal and I don't. What's deeply and profoundly satisfying doesn't automatically mean she's a legacy character. It could well mean that she is she.

@vaderito

personally I think people are misinterpreting Daisy but that's just my opinion. Just because she says her parentage is not that important to her own personal journey, doesnt mean that she's not a legacy character. It's not the defining aspect of Kylo ren, he's captured a huge amount of fans because he is so complex and original yet he is still a legacy character connected to the most famous legacy of all. Adam driver could say the same thing about his own character.

Rey is important and her parentage shouldn't be the defining point agree, she is her own character in terms of choices etc but that does not mean she is not a legacy character. RENs choices are his own.

Gemini wrote:I can't even stress how important Rey is to Luke, Leia and Ben solo

@Gemini

And maybe that's what matters. Not where she came from but what she does next.

Maybe she will bring Kylo back to the light. Maybe she helps him take down the First Order.
Or maybe not.....but it would be nice to see Han and Leia's broken son finally find someone who understood him.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Gemini wrote:I can't even stress how important Rey is to Luke, Leia and Ben solo

@Gemini

And maybe that's what matters. Not where she came from but what she does next.

Maybe she will bring Kylo back to the light. Maybe she helps him take down the First Order.
Or maybe not.....but it would be nice to see Han and Leia's broken son finally find someone who understood him.

@motherofpearl1

I just don't think it's a coincidence that just when the skywalkers are seperated...again and one of them is seduced by the dark side...again that a random girl just suddenly makes her entrance into the saga and her destiny shown to her is to help the skywalkers, not only that but her role is being leias only hope and she steals the lightsaber from the villain and eventually gives it to Luke to get him back on the quest.

It's  a very particular moment in time that our hero gets called to adventure and starts her journey in the saga. It's a moment when the skywalkers are in trouble....again

While I buy into the related to Obi-Wan theory (and that it's not a coincidence that the two men who interact with her in her vision are both named Ben), I can see that particular bit of information not being revealed until the very end of the last movie, as the denouement. Because it sounds like they're trying to set her up literally as Maz's statement of "Who's the girl." She goes from being a nobody living in obscurity to being the wildcard that could change/upend the balance of power between the two sides. And having to figure that out for herself without getting sucked into the trap that the younger Ben has fallen into. She goes through the heroine's journey, saves the Day, saves the Force, saves the Prince, and then at the end somebody's doing genealogy or hanging out at the Imperial Archives and finds this curious old birth certificate for one of her parents. It'd be a wink at the end.

In terms of going full on into a scenario where her heritage eventually does matter, it depends on how much the filmmakers want to carry out the obvious parallels to the Vader-Emperor discussion about Luke in ESB. Because that scene in referenced in Snoke's first appearance and she's the Awakening the same way Luke is the disturbance - which may be part of why people believe she's his daughter. But in that scene, the Emperor's basically like "I know who his father is, that makes him our enemy, and imma need you to kill him." And Vader's trying to pretend like he didn't know and has been pursuing personal interests in tracking him down. So I'll be curious to see if that part gets repeated again, because logic would at least dictate that Snoke knows who she's connected to. And if the FO a point of going after Ren and Hux for their lineage to ye olden days, she's connected to somebody too. Full on crazy speculation is that one of her parents is related to Obi-Wan but keeps low profile as FS given hostile environment. Somehow somebody figures out (likely same forces who outed Leia), targets family especially because of small/mallable kid who's FS, and they go on the run. Parents are desperate, leave her in Jakku to try and ditch whomever's pursuing them, bad s**t goes down that kills them and makes it appear that she was killed with them, leaving tiny Rey to have a Dickensian childhood and adolescence at Unkar Plutt's workhouse.

Her back story has never changed since Lucas created her. And it never will change according to Daisy. Would lucas make a random? I don't think so. It's not how he rolls.

Lucas son says she's like anastasia. She's not a nobody, she's just someone who thinks she's random and she's presented as a scavenger  and a nobody, But little does she know she is connected to royalty or to a legacy character or both.

It's good to have so many new people on the board sharing opinions on her legacy and such. We can become a bit stagnant in here with opinions that don't like change lol. Myself included

Gemini wrote:Her back story has never changed since Lucas created her. And it never will change according to Daisy. Would lucas make a random? I don't think so. It's not how he rolls.

Lucas son says she's like anastasia. She's not a nobody, she's just someone who thinks she's random and she's presented as a scavenger  and a nobody, But little does she know she is connected to royalty or to a legacy character or both.

@Gemini

Hmm the Anastasia comment definitely means that her background is important or royal and that possibly there are people remaining who would be pretty happy to see her alive, because she was considered dead? Or am I taking it too literally?

MissG wrote:

Gemini wrote:Her back story has never changed since Lucas created her. And it never will change according to Daisy. Would lucas make a random? I don't think so. It's not how he rolls.

Lucas son says she's like anastasia. She's not a nobody, she's just someone who thinks she's random and she's presented as a scavenger  and a nobody, But little does she know she is connected to royalty or to a legacy character or both.

@Gemini

Hmm the Anastasia comment definitely means that her background is important or royal and that possibly there are people remaining who would be pretty happy to see her alive, because she was considered dead? Or am I taking it too literally?

@MissG

Yeah she's important which could be legacy character or Royal or both and if she was obi wans then that would tick both boxes because obi wans canon romance (George Lucas' retcon of his character) was between obi wan and royalty

snufkin wrote:While I buy into the related to Obi-Wan theory (and that it's not a coincidence that the two men who interact with her in her vision are both named Ben), I can see that particular bit of information not being revealed until the very end of the last movie, as the denouement. Because it sounds like they're trying to set her up literally as Maz's statement of "Who's the girl." She goes from being a nobody living in obscurity to being the wildcard that could change/upend the balance of power between the two sides. And having to figure that out for herself without getting sucked into the trap that the younger Ben has fallen into. She goes through the heroine's journey, saves the Day, saves the Force, saves the Prince, and then at the end somebody's doing genealogy or hanging out at the Imperial Archives and finds this curious old birth certificate for one of her parents. It'd be a wink at the end.

In terms of going full on into a scenario where her heritage eventually does matter, it depends on how much the filmmakers want to carry out the obvious parallels to the Vader-Emperor discussion about Luke in ESB. Because that scene in referenced in Snoke's first appearance and she's the Awakening the same way Luke is the disturbance - which may be part of why people believe she's his daughter. But in that scene, the Emperor's basically like "I know who his father is, that makes him our enemy, and imma need you to kill him." And Vader's trying to pretend like he didn't know and has been pursuing personal interests in tracking him down. So I'll be curious to see if that part gets repeated again, because logic would at least dictate that Snoke knows who she's connected to. And if the FO a point of going after Ren and Hux for their lineage to ye olden days, she's connected to somebody too. Full on crazy speculation is that one of her parents is related to Obi-Wan but keeps low profile as FS given hostile environment. Somehow somebody figures out (likely same forces who outed Leia), targets family especially because of small/mallable kid who's FS, and they go on the run. Parents are desperate, leave her in Jakku to try and ditch whomever's pursuing them, bad s**t goes down that kills them and makes it appear that she was killed with them, leaving tiny Rey to have a Dickensian childhood and adolescence at Unkar Plutt's workhouse.

@snufkin

FWIW, Leia getting outed as Vader's daughter was sort of a fluke occurrence.

Bloodline spoiler:

Gemini wrote:Her back story has never changed since Lucas created her. And it never will change according to Daisy. Would lucas make a random? I don't think so. It's not how he rolls.

Lucas son says she's like anastasia. She's not a nobody, she's just someone who thinks she's random and she's presented as a scavenger  and a nobody, But little does she know she is connected to royalty or to a legacy character or both.

@Gemini

Where has it been said that Rey's backstory has never changed since George Lucas's original treatment? It was my understanding that very few people had read it. From the comments GL has made since he sold LF to Disney, especially around the time TFA came out, it sounded like his treatment was a continuation of the Skywalker family soap opera. In fact, that is specifically what he said. I got the impression that the female Jedi he created in his treatment would have been a Skywalker. GL also seemed to have envisaged Luke as an Obi-Wan traditional Jedi type, so the bloodline would presumably have carried on through Leia. GL always talks about Anakin's grandchildren i.e more than one, which sounds like he planned on Han and Leia having two or more kids.

The Obi-Wan descendant stuff seems to have come from an earlier draft of the TFA script. Do we know if Michael Arndt ever read GL's original treatment? The article I read about the sale of LF to Disney stated that only a Disney executive and Kathleen Kennedy had read it.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:

"They knew who she wasn't [when JJ and KK started writing the script]."

In other words, not related to Skywalkers and Solos. Just like MSW reported in June 2015. None of kids (Rey, Finn) is related.

@vaderito

And another proof that Rey s origin is not crucial for the core story of ST.

@Darth_Awakened
Well, I'm not sure if I would say it proves that. Rey's origin was never going to be crucial to the story of TFA (the first film in the trilogy), and I think they knew that for a long, long time. There would be no reason for them to decide what it was that early on. I actually do expect it to be part of the story, otherwise it wouldn't have so much emphasis within the film itself ("Classified? Me too"). It's very fundamental to the development Rey needs to undergo. Her origins are likely going to be an obstacle she has to overcome. But still, I find it interesting that they knew who she couldn't be related to that early on.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I get what you saying, but there also Maz words "you know they are not coming back", "the belonging you seek is ahead and not behind" which suggest the notion that this problem is very near to be solved (especially when Rey accepts the call: "a saber").
I do think that whoever Rey is, in the end, is not going to influence the core of the story.
I see ST story about two heroes Kylo and Rey (+Finn with the development of his own and separate from the other two)
It is Skywalker saga after all - and putting too much into the explanation of the Rey origins will require time and unnecessary exposition.
As well, I do not think that the disclosure of Rey s origin will be her main conflict in it (it will be repetitive as well), I think she is going to have completely different kind of challenge in last two movies.
But, hey I could be wrong

@Darth_Awakened
I don't think we disagree on anything. I use the term "origins" to describe whatever backstory Rey will have. Rey's "parents" aren't necessarily important in themselves, but her backstory will be, including whatever elements happen to be included in that backstory (family identity... or simply why she was left on Jakku/why they never came back, which is what I see as the real mystery anyway). So yeah, it can be a little confusing, but I will not testify to Rey's "parents" or "family" being important. The "mystery of Rey" is important.

@Mrs Ben Solo
I've never seen that quote either... that her backstory never changed since "Lucas" created her. The quote was something like "Rey's backstory never changed since Daisy first heard it during the filming of TFA". Lucas didn't create Rey at all. JJ and KK did. "Rey" came from a female heroine concept that Lucas also worked with, but his story treatment was not used. @Gemini, I'm not sure where you heard that, but it's not something I've ever come across, and it sounds a little fishy considering the fact that Rey's backstory wasn't created until after JJ and KK took over the script (ages after Lucas' treatment was shot down). This is all just my understanding though. I could be wrong.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

FWIW, Leia getting outed as Vader's daughter was sort of a fluke occurrence.

Bloodline spoiler:

@ISeeAnIsland

Ah, gotcha. I'm still on my library's waiting list to read it.

Spoiler: