ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 5

BastilaBey wrote:Is anyone familiar with Rian Johnson's other movies? I don't have strong memories of Looper so will need to watch again sometime soon, but based on Brick and The Brothers Bloom, I think there could be some very witty, fast-paced dialogue between Rey and Kylo. We already saw some of their mutual snark in the interrogation scene but I can't wait for more.

@BastilaBey

I saw Brick when it came out, coincidentally around the same time frame as Veronica Mars. Both play with classic noir tropes/characters with the protagonist/detective being a teenager who's an outsider to the cliques. Both lean heavily on Dashiell Hammett (the Thin Man!), Brick definitely is full of very witty, face paced dialogue. Brothers Bloom also awhile, but same thing with the witty dialogue and shifting trust/who's using who/the truth. Looper is excellent, but much more straight forward and serious (equally as violent as Brick), not quite the flights of fancy in dialogue that the other two have. I could definitely see it being set up as a Who's Using Whom/Mutually Beneficial Agreement scenario, although spending time together starts to blur whatever agenda they're playing against each other. Also both Brothers Bloom and Looper, it's somebody who's morally compromised, thinks that he could be a better person, and the relationship pushes him towards actually changing.

@snufkin Yes, exactly - you can see the change happening, even though the character goes in with 'bad' intentions. Fascinating. Also, Adam Driver actually reminds me quite a bit of Adrien Brody who plays that similar character in The Brothers Bloom. Beautiful brooding men who may not be quite what they seem

Wouldn't that be cool if both Rey and Kylo were interacting and trying to use each other for something, but as time goes on their opinions of each other are reassessed and it changes them? Rey is currently completely convinced he's a monster. He is in awe of her, but will probably be obsessively pursuing her so that he can somehow harness her power for his own gain. They won't be trusting of each other at first, although we know Kylo doesn't make a habit of lying to anyone but Snoke. Perhaps Rey would come to value his honesty.

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Yes, exactly - you can see the change happening, even though the character goes in with 'bad' intentions. Fascinating. Also, Adam Driver actually reminds me quite a bit of Adrien Brody who plays that similar character in The Brothers Bloom. Beautiful brooding men who may not be quite what they seem

Wouldn't that be cool if both Rey and Kylo were interacting and trying to use each other for something, but as time goes on their opinions of each other are reassessed and it changes them? Rey is currently completely convinced he's a monster. He is in awe of her, but will probably be obsessively pursuing her so that he can somehow harness her power for his own gain. They won't be trusting of each other at first, although we know Kylo doesn't make a habit of lying to anyone but Snoke. Perhaps Rey would come to value his honesty.

@BastilaBey

Yes! I love the radical honesty! Please keep the radical honesty Rian Johnson! (Actually if they do go with the Force Bond, radical honesty will be a must, because there will be little hiding from the other).

Weird, after re watching the scene where Kylo giving Han his saber, I hear a short Swan Lake theme around that moment

@BastilaBey and @SoloSideCousin Speaking of which!

http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/the-best-movie-you-never-saw-the-brothers-bloom-384#image-23
The Best Movie You Never Saw: The Brothers Bloom

THE BROTHERS BLOOM feels like a caper film in the classic Hollywood sense - like something Cary Grant and Tony Curtis might star in - albeit one that willfully loses itself in the sheer amount of fun it's having as it and its characters weave this web of fantasy for us and for each other. They do it because they're searching for love, for identity, for meaning, for something larger than their natural lives. They do it because they can, and because they can't help themselves. They do it because an audience exists.

Okay I thought I'd take a little look at the claims made by many people (anti's) that Kylo Ren is the aggressor in his interactions with Poe, Finn and Rey.  So I watched TFA (again ) and found the following:

Poe shoots first during their very first interaction on Jakku.  Yes Kylo may have just killed LST but Poe fires his blaster at Kylo. During their second interaction Kylo is the aggressor during the interrogation. (Poe 1- Kylo 1 - this is for who started as the aggressor in the interaction)

Not including the first interaction with Finn on Jakku because that wasn't really an interaction as such - more a v brief stare off. So when Kylo and Finn come face to face on SKB Finn is the aggressor.  He charges at Kylo with the lightsaber.  Fine Kylo has just thrown Rey into a tree, so yes Finn is angry and upset. (Finn 1- Kylo 0)

In Kylo's very first interaction with Rey on Takodana she is the aggressor.  She shoots at him first (even the novel states this). (Rey 1 - Kylo 0)
Their second interaction is the interrogation scene (which sooooo many people are hung up on saying it's abuse) where he is the aggressor because he's mind probing her, but she levels the playing field by turning the tables back on him. (Rey 1 - Kylo 1)
Their third interaction - she pulls the blaster on him with the clear intention to shoot, so he throws her into a tree (not the tree!!!) (Rey 2 - Kylo 1)
Their fourth interaction - she calls the lightsaber (to his very clear astonishment) and then ignites it and charges at him = she's the aggressor. (Rey 3 - Kylo 1)

Kinda makes you wonder I guess about the whole aggressor thing.  He's more powerful at later stages during many of the interactions (with Poe - freezes him.  With Finn - beats him.  His first interaction with Rey - he freezes her.  His third interaction with Rey - tree!!) but that's possibly because he's strong in the Force (v Poe, vRey 1 + 3) and clearly has a higher level of fight training than Finn (v Finn) so he's more likely to be the 'victor' in those instances.  But once Rey harnesses her own FS she becomes his equal and even surpasses him (vRey 2 + 4) - he says it twice in the film about her abilities and strength with the Force - to Snoke and the stormtrooper when they're looking for her.

But with my little points scoring system it shows that Kylo Ren isn't the one who starts off on the attack each time, he mostly ends it tho.

This probably doesn't make a single word of sense for which sorry!

I sorta think it doesn't really matter who initiates the aggression in their confrontations. The situations with Rey are hard to judge anyway; yes she shoots first in the Takodana scene, but the whole place is under the First Order attack, he's clearly coming towards her with a drawn weapon and she's got zero reasons to think that he might be a peaceful villager looking for the way to the local market. In the forest fight, she pulls the blaster on him but again, he shows up and blocks their path with a drawn weapon and says that they're not done yet and that Han can't save them anymore. I don't see how she was supposed to think that he was there with peaceful intentions.

Bottom line is, they're enemies on the opposite sides in the war, the fact they're perfectly aware of. There's no point judging it like it's some kind of everyday situation in a domestic/peaceful setting, and Kylo is not a bad boyfriend knocking his girlfriend around.

Saracene wrote:I sorta think it doesn't really matter who initiates the aggression in their confrontations. The situations with Rey are hard to judge anyway; yes she shoots first in the Takodana scene, but the whole place is under the First Order attack, he's clearly coming towards her with a drawn weapon and she's got zero reasons to think that he might be a peaceful villager looking for the way to the local market. In the forest fight, she pulls the blaster on him but again, he shows up and blocks their path with a drawn weapon and says that they're not done yet and that Han can't save them anymore. I don't see how she was supposed to think that he was there with peaceful intentions.

Bottom line is, they're enemies on the opposite sides in the war, the fact they're perfectly aware of. There's no point judging it like it's some kind of everyday situation in a domestic/peaceful setting, and Kylo is not a bad boyfriend knocking his girlfriend around.

@Saracene

I'm not judging it at all. I just wanted to see what some of these very vocal people are using as examples against Kylo Ren. it doesn't bother me who the 'aggressor' in any interaction is because it's not real, it's fantasy fiction.

I just wanted to put myself in the shoes of the Kylo Ren haters and try and see what they see.

@Rogue Rey

When I said "judging", I meant it was the haters/antis doing the judging, not yourself. Sorry if that didn't come across clearly enough.

Saracene wrote:@Rogue Rey

When I said "judging", I meant it was the haters/antis doing the judging, not yourself. Sorry if that didn't come across clearly enough.

@Saracene

Sorry I probably didn't read your post right.

Well, check this out, water archetype:

Water: birth-death-resurrection; creation; purification and redemption; fertility and growth.

Sea/ocean: the mother of all life; spiritual mystery; death and/or rebirth; timelessness and eternity.

Rivers: death and rebirth (baptism); the flowing of time into eternity; transitional phases of the life cycle. . . .

http://www.billstifler.org/en111/archetype.html

Water - a symbol of life cleansing and rebirth, represents the mystery of creation

http://www.uiltexas.org/files/capitalconference/ArchetypalSymbols1.pdf



It makes perfect sense that at least one Rey and Kylo scene takes place around/in the water. I really think that rumor about AD filming a waterfall scene at Glenevin waterfall (picture above) is AD and DR (since she is located close).

They met in the woods and now next stage/archetype is water.

@vaderito That waterfall is GORGEOUS.

If Reylo is not canon then it makes little sense for them to keep putting those two alone together in romantic settings (lush green woods, snowy forest, now rumored a waterfall).

They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too. It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending.... You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm thinking that they could leave and later return. KoR scene doesn't make sense as anything but end. So there's gotta be some flying from one location to another.

However, considering how long they are filming in Ireland, it's either lots of Ahch-to or Ireland stands in for more planets.

Based on some of what's been posted on here about the Leia novel and her (admittedly one sided) thoughts about her son, made me think of the Interrogation Scene. We're all pretty sure a big part of why he grabbed her was dumb male, "you seem cool/cute, I really want an excuse to talk to you." But everything he does that's 'out of character' to try and not be threatening, he has to be thinking back to what his mother (who had said in the previous scene that she knows he still has light in him) has told him about her experiences as a 19 year old taken prisoner and interrogated. Part of the reason why he's treating her that way is because of what his mother went through.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too.  It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending....  You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland

On the bolded, this would be incredible. People would be gasping in the theatre if it ended like that.

And on the B-plot meet up thing ...hmmm ... wasn't there a ton of separation in The Two Towers? I am not a LOTR expert by any means, but Frodo and Sam were separated for a long time.  What if they don't follow the old pattern? What if they actually separate Rey and Finn during the entire movie? And then when they all return in IX, maybe some time has passed, and Rey and Kylo (and maybe Luke) have been doing some thing and we find Finn and Poe and Leia in some hardscrabble place of defeat ... and when Rey returns with Kylo, Finn loses his mind ... but they have to work together to take down both FO and Snoke.

@SoloSideCousin They film in Ireland for so long one has to wonder if it's all Ahch-to or another planet. If it's Ahch-to than there could be big separation. Now, what makes things confusing are reports that Luke double was in Dubrovnik (Sforza + MSW), that Chloe Bruce (DR stunt double) was there too (but supposedly not dressed like Rey) and, of course, that elevator scene with Rey, Finn, BDT and 2 Princes dressed like Storm Troopers. That may be for the movie or for something else (if butt-slapping report is true).

But one things seems to be more and more plausible - Rey and Kylo are meeting on Ahch-to somehow.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too.  It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending....  You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland

On the bolded, this would be incredible. People would be gasping in the theatre if it ended like that.

And on the B-plot meet up thing ...hmmm ... wasn't there a ton of separation in The Two Towers? I am not a LOTR expert by any means, but Frodo and Sam were separated for a long time.  What if they don't follow the old pattern? What if they actually separate Rey and Finn during the entire movie? And then when they all return in IX, maybe some time has passed, and Rey and Kylo (and maybe Luke) have been doing some thing and we find Finn and Poe and Leia in some hardscrabble place of defeat ... and when Rey returns with Kylo, Finn loses his mind ... but they have to work together to take down both FO and Snoke.

@SoloSideCousin

That's what I've been thinking about, too. Separation of the two plots, LOTR style, would make a lot of narrative sense to me.

vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin They film in Ireland for so long one has to wonder if it's all Ahch-to or another planet. If it's Ahch-to than there could be big separation. Now, what makes things confusing are reports that Luke double was in Dubrovnik (Sforza + MSW), that Chloe Bruce (DR stunt double) was there too (but supposedly not dressed like Rey) and, of course, that elevator scene with Rey, Finn, BDT and 2 Princes dressed like Storm Troopers. That may be for the movie or for something else (if butt-slapping report is true).

But one things seems to be more and more plausible - Rey and Kylo are meeting on Ahch-to somehow.

@vaderito

Absolutely. :-)

Also on the bit with the princes, I seem to remember that information about the butt slapping seeming pretty reliable.  Does anyone remember where that bit came from? Because if that's the case, that's just not in the movie.  That's a charity comedy thing.  And in fact, there has not been a solid lead of Rey and Finn together besides that.  We know Finn, KMT and Luke are in Dubrovnik, but we are not sure on Rey.  Also, JB is really selling KMT.  He and she may have to hold up a third of the movie if Poe really does get sidelined with Laura Dern.  By keeping them separated the whole time would be a different approach to SW for sure.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too.  It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending....  You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland

On the bolded, this would be incredible. People would be gasping in the theatre if it ended like that.

And on the B-plot meet up thing ...hmmm ... wasn't there a ton of separation in The Two Towers? I am not a LOTR expert by any means, but Frodo and Sam were separated for a long time.  What if they don't follow the old pattern? What if they actually separate Rey and Finn during the entire movie? And then when they all return in IX, maybe some time has passed, and Rey and Kylo (and maybe Luke) have been doing some thing and we find Finn and Poe and Leia in some hardscrabble place of defeat ... and when Rey returns with Kylo, Finn loses his mind ... but they have to work together to take down both FO and Snoke.

@SoloSideCousin

Agreed on all of this. That could set things up for a VERY interesting Episode IX. I've been hoping all along that Kylo would be on his "redemption path" by the start of IX so that we could see him struggle with that, rather than doing a turn late in IX.

With the Luke walking through the casino scene, maybe there's a scenario where Luke takes off for whatever reason, leaving Rey alone on Ahch-To, which is why she's left alone when the KOR show up.

Bottom slapping @SoloSideCousin

E! News (I know...) has a new report on what Princes William and Harry got up to on the Episode VIII set:

“When they visited the Star Wars set they [William and Harry] spent part of the day shooting a secret scene,” a source told E! News. “During what was meant to be a lunch break on the official schedule of the royal tour at Pinewood, they actually sneaked off to Wardrobe and were dressed up as Stormtroopers for a scene with Daisy, John and Benicio.”

“I know that one of the Stormtroopers, not sure if William or Harry, was required to pat Daisy’s bottom as he walked past her,” the source added.

So will Star Wars: Episode VIII feature two certified princes? The source told E! News they were unsure if William and Harry’s scene was filmed for the movie, another project, such as a charity campaign, or just for fun. They added the set was cleared for the occasion, with a skeleton crew enlisted for the job.

http://www.eonline.com/news/760917/prince-william-prince-harry-filmed-a-secret-naughty-star-wars-scene-with-daisy-ridley

Darth Dingbat wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too.  It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending....  You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland

On the bolded, this would be incredible. People would be gasping in the theatre if it ended like that.

And on the B-plot meet up thing ...hmmm ... wasn't there a ton of separation in The Two Towers? I am not a LOTR expert by any means, but Frodo and Sam were separated for a long time.  What if they don't follow the old pattern? What if they actually separate Rey and Finn during the entire movie? And then when they all return in IX, maybe some time has passed, and Rey and Kylo (and maybe Luke) have been doing some thing and we find Finn and Poe and Leia in some hardscrabble place of defeat ... and when Rey returns with Kylo, Finn loses his mind ... but they have to work together to take down both FO and Snoke.

@SoloSideCousin

That's what I've been thinking about, too. Separation of the two plots, LOTR style, would make a lot of narrative sense to me.

@Darth Dingbat

Exactly.  They shouldn't have to invent a reason because of SW tradition to artificially break up a good narrative.  The ending between Finn and Rey in TFA sets up an expectation of a long separation IMO.  "I will see you again (paraphrase) ... I believe that."  It's not even a sure thing.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

vaderito wrote:They are canon. Waterfall makes perfect sense especially if we also get rain scene with KoR. Water + water. TFA was forest (spring) + forest (winter).

Holy sith, I'm thinking something. What if rain scene is from the end of the movie? Like SKB vision was from the end of the movie, rain is from the end too?

@vaderito

I've thought about that, too.  It would make for a pretty big punch of an ending....  You've got Kylo killing his own man to save Rey, thus really severing ties with the FO, they either fight or flee the remaining KOR, and then you've got a logical setup to possibly end VIII with an audience-shocking kiss.

The biggest argument against that is that it means that Rey and/or Kylo are spending most, if not all, of the movie on Ahch-To, and Rey isn't meeting up with the B Plot at all, unless there's a stretch where they leave Ahch-To and later return.

@ISeeAnIsland

On the bolded, this would be incredible. People would be gasping in the theatre if it ended like that.

And on the B-plot meet up thing ...hmmm ... wasn't there a ton of separation in The Two Towers? I am not a LOTR expert by any means, but Frodo and Sam were separated for a long time.  What if they don't follow the old pattern? What if they actually separate Rey and Finn during the entire movie? And then when they all return in IX, maybe some time has passed, and Rey and Kylo (and maybe Luke) have been doing some thing and we find Finn and Poe and Leia in some hardscrabble place of defeat ... and when Rey returns with Kylo, Finn loses his mind ... but they have to work together to take down both FO and Snoke.

@SoloSideCousin

Agreed on all of this. That could set things up for a VERY interesting Episode IX. I've been hoping all along that Kylo would be on his "redemption path" by the start of IX so that we could see him struggle with that, rather than doing a turn late in IX.

With the Luke walking through the casino scene, maybe there's a scenario where Luke takes off for whatever reason, leaving Rey alone on Ahch-To, which is why she's left alone when the KOR show up.

@ISeeAnIsland

Exactly ... Exactly ... to all of it! And it would be a very good thing if she was left alone with Kylo for a while without Luke hovering. They didn't want Luke to take over scenes in TFA either. They will need to do similar breathing room in Episode VIII. Even Harrison Ford didn't get to step on much of Rey and Kylo. Finn got more time with them, but Finn's part of the new crowd. They want to feature the new crowd. Luke being "wise and crazy Jedi" hanging around all the time will mess with that.

Giving Finn another girl to hang out with does hint at longer separation. In good old Hollywood tradition, there's always only 1 girl per team (even Civil war has Nat in Team Tony and Wanda in Team Cap). So Finn gets a girl to hang out with and fall in love with because the other girl is doing her business with other guys. Plot A has a girl and plot B has a girl.