ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 5

I'm also not feeling the Renperor ending.
I want to see this:


Edit: I am looking for the credit for this image, will update when I find it. (Help appreciated if anyone knows, lol.)

Rey and Ren just walking away from it all, from power/influence and everything political in the end.
Twe two of them (and BB-8, if they can steal him from Poe lol) going off to do their own thing together, to study the Force as Grey Jedi and eventually teach others. That's my dream ending. n_n

@Darth Rowan, that's so beautiful... it's my dream ending as well. Though if the galaxy is still a shambles, I'd like to see them face their responsibilities as well, so I can't really decide what I want. But I do feel like there should be some kind of a sense of renunciation about the ending - a sense of them having found a very simple and pure happiness in each other. That's the way I'd like it to be.

One more thing on the subject of Emperors: the Kylo we meet in TFA doesn't really exhibit any leadership qualities at all, killing his father supposedly weakened him, and he fell apart in the end, so if he suddenly emerged as a leadership-worthy hardnosed darksider in Ep. VIII, that would be the most puzzling and WTF piece of character development I've ever seen.

Somebody in TFA does strike me as a natural leader, though. Rey. Despite being a childish little cinnamon roll. She's charismatic, people seem to automatically trust and defer to her, she's fair, she keeps her word, she gives orders, she speaks with fearless authority even to someone like Kylo, and once powered up by the Force, she's very intimidating and has the body language of someone completely in charge. If I had to pick someone to rule the galaxy, I'd pick an Empress rather than an Emperor. At some point, I really quite liked the idea of the girl whose name means "king" being Palpatine's heiress.

@Darth Rowan that is my favorite piece of Reylo artwork to date! If I come across the artist, I will let you know!

No offense to Kylo Ren, but Renperor is impossible. This guy has zero cunning, is honest with her to keep what he perceives as his moral high ground. He's that nice schoolboy next door compared to real evil leader types like Snoke or Palpatine (and both of them relied on their cunning and manipulative ways, so far Kylo has only attempted to get his will through violence - LST, Rey - and it never worked out so far).

Also, I don't know if anyone's noticed - but there's a card game set of Star Wars with Rey as Queen and Ren as King. (It was somewhere on tumblr, can't find it right now >.<)

Rimfaxe96 wrote:No offense to Kylo Ren, but Renperor is impossible. This guy has zero cunning, is honest with her to keep what he perceives as his moral high ground. He's that nice schoolboy next door compared to real evil leader types like Snoke or Palpatine (and both of them relied on their cunning and manipulative ways, so far Kylo has only attempted to get his will through violence - LST, Rey - and it never worked out so far).

Also, I don't know if anyone's noticed - but there's a card game set of Star Wars with Rey as Queen and Ren as King. (It was somewhere on tumblr, can't find it right now >.<)

@Rimfaxe96

Real of fanmade? probably fanmade. can you search?

vaderito wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:No offense to Kylo Ren, but Renperor is impossible. This guy has zero cunning, is honest with her to keep what he perceives as his moral high ground. He's that nice schoolboy next door compared to real evil leader types like Snoke or Palpatine (and both of them relied on their cunning and manipulative ways, so far Kylo has only attempted to get his will through violence - LST, Rey - and it never worked out so far).

Also, I don't know if anyone's noticed - but there's a card game set of Star Wars with Rey as Queen and Ren as King. (It was somewhere on tumblr, can't find it right now >.<)

@Rimfaxe96

Real of fanmade? probably fanmade. can you search?

@vaderito

I'm on it. And I don't think they were fake (they weren't fanmade tarot cards or something like that, just normal game cards).

vaderito wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:No offense to Kylo Ren, but Renperor is impossible. This guy has zero cunning, is honest with her to keep what he perceives as his moral high ground. He's that nice schoolboy next door compared to real evil leader types like Snoke or Palpatine (and both of them relied on their cunning and manipulative ways, so far Kylo has only attempted to get his will through violence - LST, Rey - and it never worked out so far).

Also, I don't know if anyone's noticed - but there's a card game set of Star Wars with Rey as Queen and Ren as King. (It was somewhere on tumblr, can't find it right now >.<)

@Rimfaxe96

Real of fanmade? probably fanmade. can you search?

@vaderito

It's real, but I don't think it's that big a deal, tbh. Of course Kylo is the king of both black suits, and Rey is the queen of both red suits. Phasma is the queen of both clubs and spades. Finn is the king of diamonds, Poe is the king of hearts. Kind of obvious really (though I imagine Finnreys would have been over the moon if Finn had been the king of hearts as well).

https://geekritique.net/2015/10/03/new-star-wars-the-force-awakens-promo-art-appears-on-playing-cards/

There may be other decks, too, though, that I don't know of.

I saw that deck on tumblr. I want that!!!

Darth Dingbat wrote:

It's real, but I don't think it's that big a deal, tbh. Of course Kylo is the king of both black suits, and Rey is the queen of both red suits. Phasma is the queen of both clubs and spades. Finn is the king of diamonds, Poe is the king of hearts. Kind of obvious really (though I imagine Finnreys would have been over the moon if Finn had been the king of hearts as well).

https://geekritique.net/2015/10/03/new-star-wars-the-force-awakens-promo-art-appears-on-playing-cards/

There may be other decks, too, though, that I don't know of.

@Darth Dingbat

yeah, not a big deal though points for not making Finn King of hearts.

vaderito wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

It's real, but I don't think it's that big a deal, tbh. Of course Kylo is the king of both black suits, and Rey is the queen of both red suits. Phasma is the queen of both clubs and spades. Finn is the king of diamonds, Poe is the king of hearts. Kind of obvious really (though I imagine Finnreys would have been over the moon if Finn had been the king of hearts as well).

https://geekritique.net/2015/10/03/new-star-wars-the-force-awakens-promo-art-appears-on-playing-cards/

There may be other decks, too, though, that I don't know of.

@Darth Dingbat

yeah, not a big deal though points for not making Finn King of hearts.

@vaderito

Hux should have been represented more....and we need more of TR8R as well.....

I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

panki wrote:

vaderito wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

It's real, but I don't think it's that big a deal, tbh. Of course Kylo is the king of both black suits, and Rey is the queen of both red suits. Phasma is the queen of both clubs and spades. Finn is the king of diamonds, Poe is the king of hearts. Kind of obvious really (though I imagine Finnreys would have been over the moon if Finn had been the king of hearts as well).

https://geekritique.net/2015/10/03/new-star-wars-the-force-awakens-promo-art-appears-on-playing-cards/

There may be other decks, too, though, that I don't know of.

@Darth Dingbat

yeah, not a big deal though points for not making Finn King of hearts.

@vaderito

Hux should have been represented more....and we need more of TR8R as well.....

@panki

Don't forget those were released before TFA, so I assume there's no Hux or Snoke - or Leia, Luke and Han - because they wanted to avoid spoilers.

SUCCESS (even though you guys have been faster than me D:)



aren't we all

Redacted

I know it doesn't have to mean anything, but it's still sweet. *-*

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is that a space pomegranate?

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is that a space pomegranate?

@Darth Dingbat

It's an apple with a romanesco broccoli inside

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is that a space pomegranate?

@Darth Dingbat
LOL I don't know. It just looks like a peach with something green placed inside it xD

This scene also directly follows Kylo's "pull to the light" confession.

vaderito wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

It's real, but I don't think it's that big a deal, tbh. Of course Kylo is the king of both black suits, and Rey is the queen of both red suits. Phasma is the queen of both clubs and spades. Finn is the king of diamonds, Poe is the king of hearts. Kind of obvious really (though I imagine Finnreys would have been over the moon if Finn had been the king of hearts as well).

https://geekritique.net/2015/10/03/new-star-wars-the-force-awakens-promo-art-appears-on-playing-cards/

There may be other decks, too, though, that I don't know of.

@Darth Dingbat

yeah, not a big deal though points for not making Finn King of hearts.  

@vaderito

Agreed on points for not making Finn the King of Hearts. It wouldn't fit anyway. While it really doesn't mean much, if Finnrey was such a sure thing, shouldn't Finn be the King of Hearts?  

I think it's funny that both Poe and Finn are kings of the red suits instead of it being only Finn, like Phasma being queen of both black suits (I know she's the only FO female).

It's a space pomegranate. C'mon. She descends into underworld right after.

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is that a space pomegranate?

@Darth Dingbat

It's an apple with a romanesco broccoli inside

@Maria Antonietta

In this galaxy, sure, but do they really have regular apples and broccoli in the GFFA?

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just realized that Rey is doing something kind of interesting when she hears about the "fight against the Dark Side" for the first time from Maz.



Eating a fruit, as in forbidden fruit mise-en-scene. I can't say if this was intentional but the fact that it's aligned with Rey learning about the dark side is definitely something to consider.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Is that a space pomegranate?

@Darth Dingbat

It's an apple with a romanesco broccoli inside

@Maria Antonietta

In this galaxy, sure, but do they really have regular apples and broccoli in the GFFA?

@Darth Dingbat

Sometimes it's a curse to be Italian, I quickly recognized the broccoli on my first viewing xD it seems like space food but it's just a broccoli and it tastes better with spaghetti

Some more stuff;

1. In the novel, during the Resistance's attack on SKB, Hux is hanging around the control center and watching his underlings work. But due to Finn's treachery, Hux is apparently becoming somewhat paranoid, wondering if there are more traitors among the personnel while watching. Perhaps he'll have a mental breakdown at some point á la Azula (aka "Woe is me, I can't trust anyone!")?

2. After Han Solo fell;



We've already talked at length about cinematic expressionism. Notice how instead of darkness and red everything is turning to bright blue colors, while red is receding?

@Rimfaxe96
Everything about the oscillator/Starkiller can be taken as a direct metaphor for Kylo's undoing. That oscillator quite literally contains the light of a sun that is being turned into a weapon. "It uses the power of the sun/Snoke is just using you for your power." When the oscillator gets blown up the first time by Chewie he also shoots Kylo. The exact same music even plays when Starkiller destroys Hosnian Prime/when Kylo kills Han, and Kylo's trumpets sound as the sun is reborn. The music tells you all you need to know.

This part of the end credits is my favourite version of Rey's theme. It's mixed with Kylo's very signature trumpet solo (the same one that plays during his introduction, Han slaying and the sun's rebirth), and it almost feels like they used Kylo's half-step... someone who knows music better would have to tell me because it genuinely sounds darker than Rey's theme normally does.

Go to 3:31

Rey eats space pomegranate in the witch's castle right before Prince's saber calls out ot her and she has the vision of the Prince in shiny armor who saves her life. But she's scared of him so she runs into enchanted woods where she meets him in person. he puts her in enchated sleep and carries her like a bride to his ship, across threshold. Yeah.

ÑForce22 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Force22 wrote:
I think we all trust that the ending will be happy and hopeful, I don't think we should be too picky about how it's going to play out.

@Force22

To me, the journey is the most important thing, though. Sometimes I love fictional characters to bits, but if the story becomes unsatisfying or loses credibility, I simply don't care about the outcome anymore. An unsatisfying story has the power to make even the happiest of happy endings completely "meh" and the characters ultimately uninteresting in my eyes. My love is conditional

I'm just surprised that "Renperor" appears to be so popular among Reylos Well, I'll be in the minority, then.

If they're planning to turn the audience's perception of Kylo around, then "Renperor" is absolutely not the way to go, IMO. Let's not forget he's not just any ambitious Dark Side user - he killed Han Solo. His own father. His redemption is already going to be hard earned and an uphill climb within the space of two remaining films that are crowded in terms of cast, plot, and action. If the climax of Episode VIII were to be "Renperor", I'd have to conclude that they're taking the "interesting villain" route with the character, nothing more.

I guess I just never saw Kylo as a hot villain, but as a character with great potential to be moving.

Edited to add: While I do think, again, that an exploration of power and shades of evil would be interesting in a different kind of story, I don't believe there's any way they can sell "POWAH, UNLIMITED POWAH" as anything but villainous in the context of these films. There's no way the "message" will be "well, sometimes you just need a dictator to get things done, like freeing the slaves and stuff".

And if Reylo happens in this context, it will likely be the opposite of what I wanted from it.

@Darth Dingbat

I agree with you, but I just think that the path to Reylo is tortuous and difficult, and needs to remain so. And I don't think Renperor would mean Kylo would suddenly become like the OT Emperor. (If that's what you mean, then we're misunderstanding each other, I just mean Kylo being in a position of power, sort of like Riddick in the clip I showed).

I also appreciate the journey, but the journey needs to be difficult and conflicted. If Renperor is the way to go, then fine, it would still not be Kylo wanting UNLIMITED POWER!!!! cause that's not his thing, it would be for a sense of duty, to do whatever he thinks he needs to do, which I'm assuming is not completely evil, or else why so cryptic. He would still be Kylo, feeling more than ever the pull to the light, but suddenly with the FO at his feet, which could be a temptation away from the light, I don't know.

Don't forget that the climax of ESB is Vader cutting Luke's hand, and he got a redemption. It was rushed, yes, but I always liked that moment, I find father and son touching.

But then again, Snoke is the big bad, and will remain so, and I think Kylo is more like a warrior, a monk, someone on a mission. I don't see Renperor happening.

@Force22

Perhaps my headcanon, which I am trying to avoid, LOL, makes me see Kylo in a too romantic way but I see him as some sort of idealist, misguided and deluded but idealistic, not practical and ambitious like most rulers tend to be but rather the lonely knight on a enormous quest, capable of anything for a cause he sees as just and necessary. I agree with those who think he could lay down his life and soul for something important enough. The guys who end up ruling are not usually made of the same flesh and blood as the ones who fight and are willing to give their lives on this fight. 

Warriors are the passionate idealistic type and rulers are ambitious and more down to earth. I think Kylo is the first type and not the second.  Also, Kylo is the type who loves deeply and his personal life would become everything for him if he was loved  back. He also knows what it is like to have a mother who dedicated her life to politics and held a lot of power. I don't see him doing the same. 

For me the path is what matters rather than the ending. I didn't feel so happy when Vader was redeemed because he died and that is not what I would like for Kylo. In fact I dig convincing stories and prefer a tragic ending that feels right than a happy ending that feels strained and unconvincing. If Kylo turns into a character I no longer can like his ending won't matter to me any more. For me stories are about the journey and the ending should be good, not necessarily happy but good. In this case I think Kylo will find some measure of happiness for the reasons we have commented on this board but if his trajectory is not satisfying I won't be there to watch the ending, I could care less.

It's funny though, if I only had the novelisation to go by, I'd have no problem believing in wannabe Renperor. Novel!Kylo is a pompous a**, and not even an interesting one. Just a self-important, pompous a**. The interesting moments are few - like the compassion dialogue, and his gentleness in the interrogation scene - and they don't really mesh with the rest of the characterisation. Novel!Kylo has none of the emotional depth and nuance of Adam's Kylo - like, none at all: there are some hilarious attempts at profundity that just make him sound like even more of a pompous a** - and his interactions with novel!Rey are mostly uninteresting. Apart from his penchant for stroking her face and murmuring at her, of course. The novel lacks the fairytale elements and all the rich imagery. And of course, Adam's expressive eyes and voice. It's amazing how much of the depth I got out of TFA relies on the visuals and sounds alone.

So if it turned out novel!Kylo was a wannabe dictator, yeah, whatever. Not surprised, and not particularly interested either. The novel character is totally forgettable anyway, in all his pompousness. If that had been in the film, I wouldn't be on this forum today.

It would be a bizarre turn of events, but absurdly funny in a way, if novel!Kylo turned out to be the "real" Kylo and all the depth, nuanced emotion, symbolism and powerful imagery of the film was somehow misleading. I don't believe this to be the case - it's an absurd idea - but it would certainly be the biggest film WTF of all time, for me.