ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 12

I have to say when JJ said: "the moment of course when Kylo learns about Rey. And now these two disparate pieces come together." just says it all!

Like I guess Luke's agency was robbed when he asked to be trained by a little green goblin?
That's not how the force works! You always have to learn from someone. Her agency comes in when she decides to use the power she just learned about to help herself escape, instead of crying "woe is me" and waiting for someone else to rescue her.

Darth Dementor wrote:I have to say when JJ said: "the moment of course when Kylo learns about Rey. And now these two disparate pieces come together." just says it all!

@Darth Dementor

At this point, I don't think anyone ships it harder than JJ himself...

Gemini wrote:Poe was easy to break and not force sensitive, kylo could have easily told him to just sit if he could control minds but nope, had to tie him up.

@Gemini

Poe wasn't all that easy to break. Keep in mind that Kylo went at him after he'd already been physically tortured. I think it's heavily implied that Poe is pretty strong-minded.

Also, why would he bother mindtricking him to sit? Why waste energy when there's no reason?

Gemini wrote:Poe was easy to break and not force sensitive, kylo could have easily told him to just sit if he could control minds but nope, had to tie him up.

@Gemini

Poe wasn't easy to break. The whole reason Kylo came in to deal with him was because the others failed at getting him to talk.

"I'm impressed... no one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map." Poe was strong enough to resist interrogations that didn't involve use of the Force.

I'm not saying kylo doesnt have the knowledge of it. I just don't think the success rey has with the trick is from kylo. It's her own strength

I think wires are getting crossed here lol

@Gemini
Both mind reading and mind control indeed different force ability. Ren actually mix/use both in the movie first he said some command to victim (mind control)
then he read their minds ( what happen to Rey and Poe)

mind control involving some command said to the victim to obey( Ren ask poe to show him the map and what he said to Rey in interoggation "I know you seen the map now you give it me" similar to what Rey and Obi wan do in ANH to stormtrooper) while mind reading usually did not involving some command ( what Ren did to Rey in takodana forest and what Vader did to Luke in ROTJ)

i think it still make sense that Rey  learned mind control from Kylo Ren mind

Xylo Ren wrote:Like I guess Luke's agency was robbed when he asked to be trained by a little green goblin?
That's not how the force works! You always have to learn from someone. Her agency comes in when she decides to use the power she just learned about to help herself escape, instead of crying "woe is me" and waiting for someone else to rescue her.

@Xylo Ren

Agency points doubled when Kylo has her backed to the cliff's edge and she uses the knowledge/dark side/whatever he's pushing into her to charge up before turning it on him. 10/10 for irony!

WhatGirl wrote:

Gemini wrote:Poe was easy to break and not force sensitive, kylo could have easily told him to just sit if he could control minds but nope, had to tie him up.

@Gemini

Poe wasn't easy to break. The whole reason Kylo came in to deal with him was because the others failed at getting him to talk.

"I'm impressed... no one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map." Poe was strong enough to resist interrogations that didn't involve use of the Force.

@WhatGirl

Others were beating him up, not using force powers on him. That's like comparing chalk to cheese and calling it the same

Gemini wrote:I'm not saying kylo doesnt have the knowledge of it. I just don't think the success rey has with the trick is from kylo. It's her own strength

I think wires are getting crossed here lol

@Gemini

I don't even understand why this debate is taking place, because absolutely nobody has contradicted the bolded. Wires are absolutely getting crossed. JJ's explanation makes sense, Rey realizes as a result of her interactions with Kylo that she is force sensitive and can perhaps control the stormtrooper's mind. It's that simple. She isn't a mary sue as so many have said, she has the power and the interrogation unlocks it for her.

Gemini wrote:I'm not saying kylo doesnt have the knowledge of it. I just don't think the success rey has with the trick is from kylo. It's her own strength

I think wires are getting crossed here lol

@Gemini

They're getting crossed big time and I'm trying SO hard to explain this.

Rey learns she CAN mind trick from Kylo's mind.

Rey does not get the ability to mind trick from Kylo.

Rey's success is not because of Kylo.

Just. The. Knowledge.

Yes^^^

What the disagreement is about is if kylo is successful at it or not.

Gemini wrote:What the disagreement is about is if kylo is successful at it or not.

@Gemini

Which is a pointless argument to have because Kylo never attempts to mindtrick anyone in TFA. Anything about it is pure speculation, though I think he most likely can because all Jedi seem to learn it.

Gemini wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

Gemini wrote:Poe was easy to break and not force sensitive, kylo could have easily told him to just sit if he could control minds but nope, had to tie him up.

@Gemini

Poe wasn't easy to break. The whole reason Kylo came in to deal with him was because the others failed at getting him to talk.

"I'm impressed... no one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map." Poe was strong enough to resist interrogations that didn't involve use of the Force.

@WhatGirl

Others were beating him up, not using force powers on him. That's like comparing chalk to cheese and calling it the same

@Gemini

Kylo had left it to subordinates at first to get information from Poe. Probably just normal storm troopers, which is why Poe was tied down. Not because he was unable to restrain him with the Force.

And given how sassy Poe was being, I think Kylo wanted to drag the information out of him in the most painful manner possible. No tricks, just torture. The scene was meant to be done in total contrast to Rey's interrogation, in which he tries his best to be gentle.

ZioRen wrote:

Gemini wrote:What the disagreement is about is if kylo is successful at it or not.

@Gemini

Which is a pointless argument to have because Kylo never attempts to mindtrick anyone in TFA. Anything about it is pure speculation, though I think he most likely can because all Jedi seem to learn it.

@ZioRen

So we're not allowed to speculate? It's a spoilers and speculation forum?

I just don't think kylo can do it. The fact he has to use different techniques on 2 people point to that. You don't even see him attempt it. He doesn't bother. That upsets people for some reason?

Gemini wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

Gemini wrote:What the disagreement is about is if kylo is successful at it or not.

@Gemini

Which is a pointless argument to have because Kylo never attempts to mindtrick anyone in TFA. Anything about it is pure speculation, though I think he most likely can because all Jedi seem to learn it.

@ZioRen

So we're not allowed to speculate? It's a spoilers and speculation forum?

@Gemini

It's not pointless to speculate. It's pointless to argue as if we know or as if anything in TFA supports any points about it.

We're talking about a guy who can stop effing blaster bolts in midair. Even though it's not in the film, I'm sure he can perform the JMT just fine (although I doubt he calls it that anymore... )

I am pretty sure JJ said that Rey believes she can over come a weaker mind like the stormtrooper because she overcame Kylo who was strong... Not that she got the info from Kylo's mind or a forcebond..

I'm not trying to argue. I just say my opinion that makes kylo seem weak on one area and it's upset people ?

Gemini wrote:I'm not trying to argue. I just say my opinion that makes kylo seem weak on one area and it's upset people ?

@Gemini

It doesn't upset people, I think we just don't get why you'd think TFA suggests he can't do it. Why jump to upset?

I just feel like ive upset people if they are saying it's an argument. It's not meant to be an argument.

Gemini wrote:I just feel like ive upset people if they are saying it's an argument. It's not meant to be an argument.

@Gemini

Oh, well I call lots of things an argument even if there's no angry feelings! I suppose debate might be the more accurate word.

Sorry if it got heated, wasn't intentional. I am pretty blunt with opinions of mine. I don't think they are facts but my bluntness makes it seem like I'm trying to portray them as fact?

Apologies if so

Guys, the topic at hand is hardly important. No need to bite and claw for 3 pages.

Let's simply put it at "Kylo Ren accidentally help Rey realize her powers."