ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1

YoloKylo wrote:I was just looking at Mara Jade's bio on wookiepedia and she started out being an assassin for palatine and killing rebels and the OT fanboys looove her.  So if the fans can accept her redemption then they can redeem Kylo.

MeadowofAshes wrote:This is a speculation about redemption rather than an Ep 7 sign but... in EU, specifically KotOR the Force can be used to heal those near death. In the case of Revan/Bastila this created a Force Bond. Suppose in Ep 9 Kylo saves Rey and comes close to death and she heals him, infinitely strengthening the FB we already assume they have. So he redeems himself with a near/symbolic death and then they're even more strongly bonded. Oh the possibilities...

Reynak wrote:

vaderito wrote:Remove brackets around http when pasting this link to this magnificent Redemption Meta that should give everyone some food for thought:

(http)://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/

I wrote the following after reading @frolickingfizzgig's, which is fantastic and you can't miss. It is also about Kylo's redeption arc and related to what she explains in hers.

Beautiful and so well expressed. Thanks @frolickingfizzgig for sharing this insightful essay with all of us.

I especially love the part about this fallen son/sun’s rebirth and how the old SK weapon turned into a new star containg Han’s body as the ultimate resting place fpr a hero. This couldn’t be any more poetic and meaningful.

At the Resistance base, Leia told Han he had only been able to help when he aided to destroy Death Star (in ANH), which is not exactly true, he did much more than that to help her and Luke, but probably, he was no use to help their son when he needed them, when Ben needed him. So these words work as a beautiful example of foreshadowing as Han will save the day once more by helping destroy another DS, now called Star Killer.

And not only does he become the Resistance hero once again but this time he is also able to, in some mysterious way, save his wayward son. He approached Ben, which mean “son”, by the way, willing to do anything for him, ANYTHING. That felt like a sacrifice on his part and meant the beginning of Kylo/Ben’s redemption.

Kylo said to his father when he approahed him:

“Han Solo, I’ve been waiting for this day for a long time."
What did he mean? The most obvious take would be that he’s wanted to confront and kill his father for a long time, but the first and most obvious reading is never the right one with Kylo. I think he is hurt, deeply hurt, because for years he hoped Han Solo, the hero, his father, would come and save him, from his fears, his loneliness, his pain and finally the Dark Side. But Han never came for him until now. Now he tells him to go home with him, that he is missed, but now it’s too late for Kylo, or is it?

"It’s too late”
But Han saves the day again, SK is destroyed . What’s more, he also gives his life to change his son’s fate. It’s as if he exchanged his life for his son’s now that he has become a creature of Darkness who denies himself any semblablance of a life.

A new sun is reborn from that SK weapon , and a former source of death (SK) becomes the opposite, a source of life, a sun. This is what will happen to Kylo, we knew him first as a killer in the Jakku village but Han opened up the way back for him.

He feels weakened because he no longer feels empowered by the Dark. When he killed him, his father payed him back with love and forgiveness instead of resentment and hate, so he runs away towards the Light, embodied in the person of Ray.

I agree that he is like a medieval warrior monk who’s denied himself any form of positive feeling or pleasure for years, but he craves love and a life, also joy and company, so he can only chase Rey as he can’t restrain his emotions and deny his needs any more. He will have to find his way out of the Dark Side, and it won’t be easy but hard and painful.

However, the seeds are already there. He needs help, though, and I think Leia, Luke and Rey will be willing to help him in his struggle. Nobody was able to help him as a kid and this is a family friendly franchise. It would’t make sense to show kids there’s no hope for those who have fallen. Redemption is always possible if one gives up one’s old ways, regrets the wrongs made to others and oneself and really wants to come back to the Light/ right path.

I also love where Han will rest for ever, at the heart of sun, a burning resting place that resembles a burning Viking ship. It suits an old pirate /smuggler that was also a hero, not a perfect hero but more endearing , with his human flaws and loads of charm.

I want to believe this mirrors where he’ll always have a place, inside another sun(his son)’s heart, in Ben’s heart. He will feel like a burning wound now in his son’s heart, but one day the wound will hurt less and love will have won the battle.

How many real Han’s fans would want him to have died for nothing ? It’s only fair life and this saga bestowes him his ultimate wish, bringing his son back. This is anther reason why Kylo/Ben’s Redemption must happen and will happen. Han and Leia deserve it and Luke deserves it. The last Skywalker, the man they couldn’t protect or save as a kid , can’t die alone, desperate and lost in the the Dark.

jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:

”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

Armadeus wrote:Why do I think Kylo will/should be redeemed? Because I watched The Force Awakens and I noticed a few things.

KYLO REN: Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.

Sorry, but hearing the way that line is delivered, I don't think Ren believes that; there isn't an ounce of confidence in it. He sounds like he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince Han.

KYLO REN: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

I swear you can hear his voice tremble on the word 'time'.

REY: You're a monster!

Rey sounds so certain about that. Remember: Act II of a three act story is where the protagonist's worldview gets turned on its head.

Also, seeing as how many people like to think the Starkiller base is a metaphor for Kylo, I noticed this interesting bit of dialogue between the X-Wing pilots.

JESS TESTOR: What do we do? It isn't working!

PILOT: There's a brand new hole in that oscillator. Looks like our friends got in.

POE: Hit the target hard, give it everything you got!

I can't help, but think this exchange might be a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe the 'brand new hole' is Kylo's killing of Han Solo.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:

”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

vaderito wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:

”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

Mournful stance similar to (legal image from our library of legal images):



he's standing more straight in the Weapon scene (considering he isn't alone but on the bridge) but the gist is the same, I think?

vaderito wrote:Like father like son. OK, I'm now convinced that Kylo knows how to fly MF and that he'll fly it sometime in the movies.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:Next to all the quotes Armadeus mentioned, what really stood out to me was "It's too late". He feels like he's long passed the point of no return. But if there was a way to convince him otherwise...

vaderito wrote:Like father like son. OK, I'm now convinced that Kylo knows how to fly MF and that he'll fly it sometime in the movies.

Pablo Hidalgo basically confirmed a flight scene with him via Twitter. I can't wait...!

vaderito wrote:No cause whole cinema will do that if they use it as his heroic moment, like, something that nobody expected.

Armadeus wrote:
JESS TESTOR: What do we do? It isn't working!

PILOT: There's a brand new hole in that oscillator. Looks like our friends got in.

POE: Hit the target hard, give it everything you got!

I can't help, but think this exchange might be a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe the 'brand new hole' is Kylo's killing of Han Solo.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

vaderito wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I don't even know what to make of this quote and photo pairing I saw on tumblr:

”When the weapons engineers fired the device, a breach was induced in the containment field. At incredible velocity and accelerating exponentially, the concentrated volume of quintessence escaped, transforming as it did so into a state known as phantom energy and following the artificial line of egress that had been provided. Assuming that the rotation and inclination of the planet had been taken into account, the released blast of concentrated phantom energy would travel along a perfectly linear path, punching a small Big Rip through hyperspace itself until it left the galaxy — or encountered something in its path that was of sufficient mass to intercept it.”

It just made me think a lot....
This is such an interesting and mysterious shot. The thing is The Kylo Ren can't and doesn't "intercept" or stop Starkiller Base, but maybe he wants to. He probably spent a lot of his childhood on these Republic planets. And now he is visually being shot by the weapon along with them....but the the camera goes to his face and he is watching from the sidelines, unable to do anything, unable to truly come between the weapon and its targets.
Most of this has been said a lot, but I like the photo/quote association.

He definitely doesn't want this to happen.  This shot is huge in terms of his visual meaning.  He is separate from the rest.  He is holding himself up and has a mournful stance as he watches it.  Yet he forces himself to watch it.  There have been other shots like this in movies where some truthteller, some person who knows better but can't stop some destruction forces themselves to watch it, like the moment has to be respected and honored.  Ugh! I know I have seen this kind of shot before.  I just cannot remember a good specific example right now ... but I think this shot is a mix of silent horror and foreshadowing.  He doesn't approve of this and he can't stop this, but *this*, things like this are the reason he is doing whatever he is doing (I am convinced he has his own agenda ... it may be wrong-minded, but he's not in lockstep with Snoke), and perhaps he also forces himself to watch it to give him the push to keep going ... so that he might one day be in the position to stop these things.

Mournful stance similar to (legal image from our library of legal images):



he's standing more straight in the Weapon scene (considering he isn't alone but on the bridge) but the gist is the same, I think?

Also this: https://i.imgur.com/LRqyuku.png

This is the first time they've both entered the cockpit in years, and they do the same thing (place their hands on both chairs).

Darth Dementor wrote:

vaderito wrote:No cause whole cinema will do that if they use it as his heroic moment, like, something that nobody expected.

Could it also be the "hole" in Kylo's armor that Rey has somehow created?

MeadowofAshes wrote:@YoloKylo I've said if before, I'll say it again: it's a sexist double standard. Hero/villainess pairings are totally a thing in comics and no one cares. But suggest a heroine should go for the bad guy and suddenly legions of dudebros and feminazis unite to slaughter your firstborn.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:@YoloKylo I've said if before, I'll say it again: it's a sexist double standard. Hero/villainess pairings are totally a thing in comics and no one cares. But suggest a heroine should go for the bad guy and suddenly legions of dudebros and feminazis unite to slaughter your firstborn.

This for me is the biggest reason why I want Reylo to be canon. It never fails to infuriate me when [redacted] say that the "strong" heroine can't be attracted to/fall in love with/redeem the villain because it's somehow abusive and makes a woman weak? What!? I personally think, as a woman, that it's more "empowering" for a flawed heroine to redeem a villain the same way a hero redeems a villainess (like Luke and Mara for example), instead of being a sexless, non-feminine, butt-kicking heroine with no flaws that media and society prefers today. Reylo happening will knock the idea that a heroine can't be anything other what I've described above out of the water.

Also, another sexist double standard I despise is F/M heroine/villain pairings can't be a thing, but have a M/M hero/villain pairing and the [redacted] will go absolutely gaga and drool over it, no matter how abusive it is. They'll even go as far as to hate any female character that poses the slightest threat to an M/M pairing - just look at Hannibal! The fangirls went absolutely crazy for the Will/Hannibal pairing, even though Hannibal did horrendous things to Will, such as manipulating him into thinking he was going insane, framed him for murder and even tried turning him into a murderer as well. These same fangirls hate on Alana and (one of my personal, favourite heroines of all time) Clarice Starling, for having a relationship with Hannibal - they even go as far as to call the relationship between Clarice and Hannibal abusive and while that is true in some retrospect, it's no where near abusive as Will/Hannibal. (No offense to anyone who likes this show or pairing, this is just my personal opinion).

vaderito wrote:All of this! There's some twisted double standard which is think is because Heroine/Villain doesn't check [redacted] boxes. Hero/Villainess is approved because villainess = girl has fun being bad, body count = strong female character (you'll notice that strong female characters are exclusively judged by ability to unleash physical harm or how many people they kill, not by mental strength). Hero/Villain = gay, progressive OMG.