Re: ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1

by FrolickingFizzgig Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:05 pm

I think it's important to remember that the oscillator had a giant hole blown into it by Chewbacca right after Kylo had a giant hole blown into his side by Chewbacca. Symbolism and parallels. Great stuff. They didn't even bother giving it a rest on the Starkiller Base/Light of the Sun/Rebirth of the Son metaphor.

by vaderito Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:33 pm

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Yep! Bang on! For all their talk about being "progressive", I've always found [redacted] to be one of the most regressive groups ever, not to mention one of the most hypocritical.

Hear, hear! Take Finnrey, for example. Most Finnrey fans who are [redacted] admit that the pairing isn't engaging. They call it 1)safe 2)easy 3) sends message to little girls to choose "healthy" relationships and 4) interracial. Those are the only reasons why they want it to happen, not because it engages them story-wise but because it pushes agenda. They have no passion for that ship - there's barely any fan art (read: ship isn't inspirational), there's far more passion put in hating Reylo so I think they must be closet Reylos considering obsession - yet they want to force the ship, that they find boring, obviously, on billions of movie goers around the world (majority that doesn't care about agenda in particular #3 and #4) and ruin their movie experience. Just ugh.

by Mana Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:40 pm

vaderito wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Yep! Bang on! For all their talk about being "progressive", I've always found [redacted] to be one of the most regressive groups ever, not to mention one of the most hypocritical.

Hear, hear! Take Finnrey, for example. Most Finnrey fans who are [redacted] admit that the pairing isn't engaging. They call it 1)safe 2)easy 3) sends message to little girls to choose "healthy" relationships and 4) interracial. Those are the only reasons why they want it to happen, not because it engages them story-wise but because it pushes agenda. They have no passion for that ship - there's barely any fan art (read: ship isn't inspirational), there's far more passion put in hating Reylo so I think they must be closet Reylos considering obsession - yet they want to force the ship, that they find boring, obviously, on billions of movie goers around the world (majority that doesn't care about agenda in particular #3 and #4) and ruin their movie experience. Just ugh.

no kidding @Vaderito, look at the number of anti-Reylo blogs!!! They are way more passionate about Reylo than they are about their own ships or their 'cause'...

by AnneNeville Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:43 pm

What other evidence for redemption do we have?

by vaderito Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:51 pm

To me, redemption is a foregone conclusion. The only question is when and how. Will they wait to do it in the last 15 min of the last movie or we get a twist where it happens much earlier (so that Ben could fly MF so to speak Very Happy

)?

@Mana Finnrey is passion-free relationship because it's meant to be friendship. Friendships are not passionate. It's a different type of love. Therefore, those who are pushing their agenda through that ship are having hard time caring for the couple because they are not a romance in any sense of the word. They are not romantic, they are not sexual, they are not sensual, they don't project intimacy, they are not epic. And their shippers know it and therefore are not real shippers. Real shippers care. Look at Reylo! Shippers care, fans who don't consider themselves shippers care, antis care. They all care about characters as a couple (yes, even antis hence spending so much time thinking/writing/obsessing about Reylo). ***

by BastilaBey Mon 28 Mar 2016, 6:55 pm

I think the obsession with being against Reylo makes sense to an extent at this point in the trilogy, even though it's not how I feel at all. It's a controversial dynamic and we only have one piece of the puzzle. Lots of people like to conflate movies with real life, even ones like SW that aren't meant to be realistic or gritty. Ben solo has to be redeemed for leia and Han, I just do not believe the writers would do that to those beloved ot characters. How could that be their legacy in a franchise that's meant to be filled with hope? Finn and Rey pairing doesn't inspire nearly as much passion, which is why they will stay friends. It's not the responsibility of movies to only show sexless, nice, safe relationships.

by Guest Mon 28 Mar 2016, 7:04 pm

vaderito wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Yep! Bang on! For all their talk about being "progressive", I've always found [redacted] to be one of the most regressive groups ever, not to mention one of the most hypocritical.

Hear, hear! Take Finnrey, for example. Most Finnrey fans who are [redacted] admit that the pairing isn't engaging. They call it 1)safe 2)easy 3) sends message to little girls to choose "healthy" relationships and 4) interracial. Those are the only reasons why they want it to happen, not because it engages them story-wise but because it pushes agenda. They have no passion for that ship - there's barely any fan art (read: ship isn't inspirational), there's far more passion put in hating Reylo so I think they must be closet Reylos considering obsession - yet they want to force the ship, that they find boring, obviously, on billions of movie goers around the world (majority that doesn't care about agenda in particular #3 and #4) and ruin their movie experience. Just ugh.

As a Finnrey fan as well as a Reylo one, I completely agree. Finnrey isn't one of my big OTPs - in fact I wouldn't put it in my Top 5 Star Wars pairings - I hardly search for any fan art of it and I've not once read a Finnrey fanfic. But I genuinely think it's very sweet and cute, and I indeed sympathise with the people who want to see a positive portrayal of an interracial relationship in a Hollywood Blockbuster. But to call people racist for liking a pairing that just happens to pair two Caucasians together, simply because it's more interesting and has more potential is just disgusting as well as completely hypocritical. Why? Well many Reylo shippers are Stormpilot fans - which is also an interracial couple and a homosexual one at that. Racist and "non-progressive"? I think not! Also look at the hate Kelly Marie Tran received from Finnrey fans since it's rumoured that she's Finn's new love interest. They claim they are "progressive" and want interracial relationship in SW, yet they hate the idea of a Black man hooking up with an Asian woman because it "gets in the way" of Finnrey!? I personally think seeing a relationship between a White person and a Black person would be one thing, but seeing a relationship between a Black Person and an Asian person would be something else entirely, as I can't think of a single movie or TV show that has this - the only thing that I've personally seen portray a relationship between a Black Person and an Asian person is a video game called Until Dawn, and that was entirely a negative one. I just don't understand *** logic.

Anyway are we going off-topic? Feel free to PM me if you wanna continue. Smile

by AnneNeville Mon 28 Mar 2016, 7:16 pm

There are lots of issues of unfortunate assumptions to mine in the fandom, including the irksome belief that Rey is definitely/obviously Luke's, but not Finn, even though both Rey and Finn were cast colorblind. The likelihood of a parent-child relationship between Luke and those two are equal.

There's a Finn/Rey friendship thread on this board for discussing them in greater detail. Smile

by Guest Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:47 pm

I don't get people who say that Kylo will go darker because that's the reason he killed Han. Did they ignore Kylo's reaction to killing his father? It seems like it.

Yeah, maybe that was why he did it. Doesn't mean it worked. Quite the opposite happened. He got weaker, not strong with the power of the dark side anymore. I think Kylo Ren died right there on that bridge along with Han.

If that's the case, then Han did fulfill his mission to bring his son back. I'm thinking we'll see more of Ben Solo as the story continues, and less of Kylo Ren.

by vaderito Tue 29 Mar 2016, 5:23 am

WhatGirl wrote:I don't get people who say that Kylo will go darker because that's the reason he killed Han. Did they ignore Kylo's reaction to killing his father? It seems like it.

Yeah, maybe that was why he did it. Doesn't mean it worked. Quite the opposite happened. He got weaker, not strong with the power of the dark side anymore. I think Kylo Ren died right there on that bridge along with Han.

If that's the case, then Han did fulfill his mission to bring his son back. I'm thinking we'll see more of Ben Solo as the story continues, and less of Kylo Ren.

Also, what darker even means? He killed his father, that's as dark as it gets. He can only go up unless they have him sacrifice his firstborn which they won't. It makes no narrative sense to have him kill Leia and Luke because shock value is always with the first big kill and that was Han.

Point is, darker means doing something worse than previous worst act and patricide is the worst. You really can't go worse, only same level (matricide, uncle-cide).

by AnneNeville Tue 29 Mar 2016, 5:29 am

@vaderito Genocide would be darker, so I guess if Kylo Ren decided to actively promote building another Starkiller and destroying planets, that could be objectively worse than patricide. Not much would have the dramatic effect that killing Han did, and I don't see why they would consider going in that direction when they have Hux there to offer contrast to Kylo. No point in creating Hux if Kylo is going to become more like Hux.

by vaderito Tue 29 Mar 2016, 5:42 am

AnneNeville wrote:@vaderito Genocide would be darker, so I guess if Kylo Ren decided to actively promote building another Starkiller and destroying planets, that could be objectively worse than patricide. Not much would have the dramatic effect that killing Han did, and I don't see why they would consider going in that direction when they have Hux there to offer contrast to Kylo. No point in creating Hux if Kylo is going to become more like Hux.

Yet people never get hung up on acts of evil against faceless masses. It's characters we care about. So from viewer's POV, killing Han is worse than blowing up trillions of I-don't-care-about canon fodders.

by Reylo Lemon Tue 29 Mar 2016, 7:03 am

I think it's pretty clear that he will be redeemed, from Mustafar with snow (Rey symbolically extinguishes his rage) and Han Solo tomb becomes a star. The trilogy will focus on this issue.

by vaderito Tue 29 Mar 2016, 7:47 am

If Ben doesn't get redeemed than Han died in vain. The whole point of the scene was that Han managed to thwart Snoke's plan to kill all light in Ben. Nobody expected that Han would touch his face and that the touch would mean something to Ben. But it did.

by guardienne Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:04 am

darker could mean more madness and random killing but i don't see star wars going that direction at all.

by **Darth Rowan** Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:08 am

Hi, just a heads up that we moved this thread to the Episode VIII section because the topic pertains more to upcoming episodes.

We've also gone through and edited some of the earlier posts in this thread that have some discussion about fans rather than ideas. We've removed offensive labels for people but have left the posts themselves unchanged. PM us if you have questions.

by CienaRee Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:14 am

Exactly.How much darker can Kylo get?aif they wanted to make him a fail on monster they could have prolonged his conflict with the Light to episode 8 where he kills Han and has the fight with Rey (which by the time the battle happens would have had some retaining with Luke and defeating him might have made more sence if they didn't want to have a abraded/Luke rehas from ESB!And then in episode 9 Rey and Kylo have a fight one last time where Rey finally kills him.
Instead they had him do the most awful thing he possibly can in the very first movie in the trilogy then have a duel with Rey where she defeats him?Him being a one note villain n the next two movies will be boring and prdiatble.If that's what they were going for they should have had Rey kill him at the end of TFA because having her hating him and he obsessing over fining and maybe killing or seducing her to the Dark Side would be boring.I choose to believe the writers did those things so the dynamic between Kylo and Rey will drastically changed in the next movies.
Seriously I see so many people believing in th scenario where Rey becomes one note villain for the rest of the trilogy and Rey's main prisoners is to kill him in the end and I wonder why they think this would make for an interesting storyline?I don't mean to offend them because everyone has different tastes but this is just so superficial and oversimplified.

by CienaRee Tue 29 Mar 2016, 8:16 am

I meant Kylo being one note villain but Rey being tempted or falling to the Dark side for a little bit would be interesting and is pecked in a good way since a large group of people spit her to have the same story as Like.

by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:01 am

-

Photographic proof that Kylo Ren CAN be redeemed -

ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1 - Page 3 Kylo%20Ren%20smile_zps0vyam9n5

Just LOOK at that face.
He is thinking about his Rey.....for sure....

Cool

-

by Reylo Lemon Tue 29 Mar 2016, 11:56 am

Kylo Ren's 8-Pack wrote:-

Photographic proof that Kylo Ren CAN be redeemed -

Just LOOK at that face.
He is thinking about his Rey.....for sure....

-

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww

by AnneNeville Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:12 pm

Redemption fans, everyone simply must go read this amazing piece of meta, Kylo Ren as Persona. It is absolutely dynamite, and has identified to me what might be the key to why the fandom is so split about Ben/Kylo's capacity for redemption.

Microexpressions.

Why are (largely) women reading Kylo Ren as redeemable? What are people missing? We keep thinking--how can the antis not see what is right in front of them? Right on the screen?

Well, the answer may well be . . . because of microexpressions. Which are the basis of Adam Driver's performance.

Which women are generally better than picking up emotions than men. And which certainly some people (of whichever gender) are more skillful than reading than other people (of whichever gender).

by BastilaBey Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:19 pm

AnneNeville wrote:Redemption fans, everyone simply must go read this amazing piece of meta, Kylo Ren as Persona. It is absolutely dynamite, and has identified to me what might be the key to why the fandom is so split about Ben/Kylo's capacity for redemption.

Microexpressions.

Why are (largely) women reading Kylo Ren as redeemable? What are people missing? We keep thinking--how can the antis not see what is right in front of them? Right on the screen?

Well, the answer may well be . . . because of microexpressions. Which are the basis of Adam Driver's performance.

Which women are generally http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/6409911/Women-better-at-picking-up-on-emotions-than-men.html. And which certainly some people (of whichever gender) are more skillful than reading than other people (of whichever gender).

It's so good! Adam is an incredible actor and it makes complete sense that so many did not pick up on this and just saw kylo ren.

by vaderito Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:22 pm

AnneNeville wrote:Redemption fans, everyone simply must go read this amazing piece of meta, Kylo Ren as Persona. It is absolutely dynamite, and has identified to me what might be the key to why the fandom is so split about Ben/Kylo's capacity for redemption.

Microexpressions.

Why are (largely) women reading Kylo Ren as redeemable? What are people missing? We keep thinking--how can the antis not see what is right in front of them? Right on the screen?

Well, the answer may well be . . . because of microexpressions. Which are the basis of Adam Driver's performance.

Which women are generally http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/6409911/Women-better-at-picking-up-on-emotions-than-men.html. And which certainly some people (of whichever gender) are more skillful than reading than other people (of whichever gender).

Where's the link to meta? I only see Telegraph.

by BastilaBey Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:25 pm

@anneneville it also really shows why the mask is so important to Kylo Ren. All of these emotions flit across his face constantly, if he was walking around barefaced people would immediately pick up on his conflict. I'm so interested to see if he's wearing it again in the next film.

by AnneNeville Tue 29 Mar 2016, 10:26 pm

vaderito wrote:
AnneNeville wrote:Redemption fans, everyone simply must go read this amazing piece of meta, Kylo Ren as Persona. It is absolutely dynamite, and has identified to me what might be the key to why the fandom is so split about Ben/Kylo's capacity for redemption.

Microexpressions.

Why are (largely) women reading Kylo Ren as redeemable? What are people missing? We keep thinking--how can the antis not see what is right in front of them? Right on the screen?

Well, the answer may well be . . . because of microexpressions. Which are the basis of Adam Driver's performance.

Which women are generally http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/6409911/Women-better-at-picking-up-on-emotions-than-men.html. And which certainly some people (of whichever gender) are more skillful than reading than other people (of whichever gender).

Where's the link to meta? I only see Telegraph.

http://ms-qualia.tumblr.com/post/141925375404/kylo-ren-as-persona

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