Snoke in Episodes VIII

Hi, I searched and couldn't find a thread for general Snoke discussion. I've found a new piece of info that has interesting potential ramifications, and so I thought I'd create a place to share it. I hope that's okay!

I have just watched most of the special features on the TFA blu-ray, and while they’re mostly fluff best summarised by gifs I did notice something very intriguing that I haven’t seen anyone else pick up on.

It basically comes in a behind-the-scenes moment that shows Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher filming their key scene together on the Resistance Base. In character, they have the following exchange:

Leia: You could always see him clearer than I could.
Han: I don’t know what I saw.

While the documentary overall is very carefully designed to let nothing slip, this exchange is rather fascinating because it is - to the best of my knowledge - unique. It is not featured in any of the many tie-in novelisations, though it was clearly in the script and filmed.

I think there are two possibilities as to who they could be talking about: Ben Solo and Snoke. And while Ben might seem like the obvious choice, I find it more likely that the exchange is actually about Snoke.

It is subtlety implied elsewhere that Snoke knew Leia personally (he refers to her by her first name in the junior novelisation, for example), perhaps through their political connections, and I can see a scenario where he earned her trust and used their professional relationship to target the young Ben Solo. If my suspicion is correct, Han will have been the person looking at Snoke with clear eyes and finding him suspicious and unsettling. Thus, he sensed that something was off with Snoke but couldn’t pinpoint what until his son had already been corrupted.

That is what makes the most sense to me. What do you think about the exchange? As far as I’m concerned, it’s probably the most intriguing thing in the entire documentary (mostly because it’s largely PR and fluff, but still) because it has actual implications for the mystery of who.what Snoke is and how he wormed his way into Ben Solo’s life.

That's an interesting possibility. We don't know the order of scenes but it seems to me that dialog that continued was "we both dealt with it in our own ways". It was fairly muffled. But wasn't that part that came before "It was Snoke"?

Anyway, Snoke does deserve discussion thread. I'm reposting this from Reylo because I think that it gives another dimension to Han Slaying - Snoke's theme plays over the exact moment when Kylo goes blank face and stabs Han. This cannot be a coincidence. We know that Kylo was genuinly ready to leave with Han. Than sun was drained, darkness fell, Snoke theme kicked in, Kylo went blank face (what we call Manchurian!Kylo) and stabbed Han.

From 1:25 mark, you'll hear part later played in Torn Apart in the background:



Snoke theme dominates Torn Apart at 1:30 mark:



Coincidence? I think not. There was more going on in that moment than meets the eye.

I think he's controlling his mind 24/7. He's worse than Palpatine, I can feel it. Someone like Sauron

vaderito wrote:That's an interesting possibility. We don't know the order of scenes but it seems to me that dialog that continued was "we both dealt with it in our own ways". It was fairly muffled. But wasn't that part that came before "It was Snoke"?

I just checked the BTS footage, and you don't hear any audio from the characters on either side of the lines I cite. Therefore, we can only figure out the context by inference. For reference, let’s look at the full exchange in the script and figure out where things could fit:

HAN: Listen to me, will you?  I know every time you… every time you look at me, you’re reminded of him.  

LEIA: You think I want to forget him?  I want him back!

Han looks at her with sympathy.

HAN: There was nothing we could’ve done. (hard for him to say) There was too much Vader in him.

LEIA: That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke.  I just never should have sent him away.  That’s when I lost him.  That’s when I lost you both.

HAN: We both had to deal with it in our own way.  I went back to the only thing I was ever good at.

LEIA: We both did.

HAN: We lost our son, forever.

LEIA: No. (long beat) It was Snoke.

Han takes this in.

LEIA (CONT’D) He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him.  Me. You.

HAN: If Luke couldn’t reach him, how could I?

LEIA: Luke is a Jedi… you’re his father. There’s still light in him.  I know it.

If the cut lines do pertain to Snoke (and the more I think about it, the more certain I am), I believe they must have come after Leia says “It was Snoke” - that would have been the natural place to have the cut exchange. It’s also worth mentioning that the novelisations elaborate on Leia’s suspicions of Snoke, without including the lines from the BTS footage. The junior novelisation expands on the Han/Leia scene like this:

“No,” Leia said, “It was Snoke.”

“Snoke?”

“He knew our child would be strong with the Force,” Leia said. “That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”

“You knew this from the beginning? Why didn’t you tell me?” Han asked.

Leia said nothing in her defense. Han didn’t push. “So Snoke was watching our son.”

“Always. From the shadows,” Leia explained. “Even before I realised what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son towards the dark side.”

I expect that the JN exchange was also filmed in some capacity. The cut lines could well have been a continuation of Leia’s bit about Snoke pulling Ben to the dark side. The reference to Han’s “seeing him clearly” would work well alongside the reference to Snoke watching Ben from the shadows (i.e. Han was able to see past the shadows when Leia could not).

The more we learn the more clear it becomes that the film was brutally edited to excise information and clues that the filmmakers decided to hold back for VIII. I would really love to get my hands on the actual shooting script, since the one that’s widely available was clearly edited down to reflect the final cut of the film rather than what was actually shot.

But Han seems surprised by her reveal that it was Snoke. if Han could see Snoke more clearly than why was he surprised by Leia's reveal? oooor, as you say, he saw Snoke more clearly and Leia didn't take it seriously until too late. "I don't know what I saw."



Now, if hanleia convo was about Ben, than I see it like this:

"You could always see him more clearer than I could." Means he could understand Ben better...which sorta clashes with Leia's novelization opinion that patience wasn't among Han's wonderful qualities. But it supports "weak and foolish like his father", that for all FS that Ben had he was more like Han personality wise.

"I don't know what I saw". Han is unsure what to think about Ben. He thought he was one way, he turned out another way.

It's hard to gauge.

Oh yay! A Snoke thread! I'll just quote myself here about something I thought of earlier.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:My speculations ahead:

Am I the only one who thinks BDT is Young!Snoke Rey sees in Forceback visions/dreams?

I speculate that Rey will have a lot of Force Bond induced dreams about Ben Solo's past, which is caused by Kylo Ren suffering regret and emotional tumoil on the other end...
Ren has dreams of his childhood, and this leaks thru the bond. Rey sees those dreams along with other supressed memories.

She will see Ben being shunned and bullied being Vader's blood..and what I'm hoping for (because I'm a cruel bastard) is she sees him being held down by older padawans who cut off his arm with his own saber, implying he has a mecharm.

These visions may cause Rey to feel compassion for Ben and want to know more about him...so she asks Luke, after which she already has both sides of the story... This will confuse her feelings toward him. Hatred for Ren and Compassion for Ben... This time Rey will be the one torn.

Snoke might be one of Leia's 'allies' or a shady member of the republic... He is the one who casually drops hints on Ben that he can help Ben achieve Vader's legacy. He could be part of the growing Imperial Remnant and is a Vader worshipper.. He is a constant shadow, waiting for Ben to crack. Snoke twists every detail of history just to get Ben.. And when all seems lost for Ben after trying his best to resist the Dark, his parents neglect him, Luke wasnt able to protect him, he decided to take on Snoke's offer...

Snoke reveals he is the master of the KOR and he brings Ben under his wing... They attack the 'academy' where Ben kills/turns his fellow padawans and Luke uses *gasp* Force Lightning on Snoke, thus mutilating him into this skeletal Voldy wannabe... Snoke rendered frail, hands KOR leadership to Ben... And Luke, horrified by his own actions and also mourning his loss and failure, runs to exile.

Well, this isn't really a "who is Snoke?" theory, but I thought it might fit in this thread...

I came across this interesting tidbit about the Knights of the Fallen Empire game:

An interesting fact that Backus shared is that Director J.J. Abrams watched the KotFE blur trailer because he had carte blanche to decide whether what the BioWare team was doing contradicted the story he was telling in any way. He also added that Lucasfilm could draw on any of what BioWare writes for future Star Wars things.

From: http://massivelyop.com/2015/06/22/e3-2015-swtors-upcoming-expansion-builds-on-the-legacy-of-kotor/

That struck me as quite curious. The Old Republic games are set thousands of years before the timeline of the films. How on earth would they interfere with each other? Both are "Star Wars", but different universes, in a way. And the games aren't even officially canon.

Unless... they are actually planning to make the Old Republic canon. And the events from thousands of years back do somehow play a role in the current timeline.

This brought to mind a controversial leak from 2014 which included this:

EA and Disney have a brilliant plan for SWTOR. It will be upgraded to canon in the next expansion and will have some subtle tie-ins with Star Wars 7. (Specifically, a certain planet will be used and lord Vitiate will be an off-screen influence on the main villain of 7).

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/26jrrf/the_future_of_swtor/

The "certain planet" might be Malachor, or Rakata Prime, which both became canon; though in the context of TFA, it might also be Ahch-To - which might actually be Tython, where the Jedi originated.

Now, this rumour made some people theorise that Snoke might actually be Lord Vitiate (better known as the immortal Sith Emperor, and in a new incarnation as Valkorion in the Knights of the Fallen Empire mentioned above). Basically, he's an ancient and supremely powerful Dark Lord whose ultimate goal is to consume all life in the galaxy, consume the Force itself and become God. He has managed to make his spirit immortal - he can survive without a body, and he's capable of possessing people and controlling their minds. If Snoke is Vitiate, he'd be much scarier and much more dangerous than anyone could guess at this point. A bit like Sauron, as @Maria Antonietta says.

But I suppose that would depend on your definition of "main villain", as well as "off-screen". Can you really say that Snoke is "off screen" in TFA, even though he's a hologram? And isn't Snoke the "main villain"? It would be interesting if Vitiate were actually an off-screen influence on Snoke himself: it would go with Vitiate's M.O., as he switches bodies, controls and manipulates people's minds, and hides behind different levels of loyal "servants"l. Would that mean that Snoke himself is being used as a pawn - and there's a Big Bad, a.k.a. the Emperor, behind him?

Take all this with a grain of salt, but still - it's an interesting thought, IMO. Especially as Vitiate was the enemy to none other than Revan.

Possessing people and controlling their minds? Like when Manchurian!Kylo went blank faced while Snoke theme played? I bet that something happened in that scene that we will find out later which will make Kylo's redemption easier. And it won't be a cop out because they definitely set up something in there. Either Snoke Winter Soldier'd Kylo with a trigger (darkness triggers involuntary kill reaction, or something else does) or he was there but we couldn't see him. I'm thinking this because novelization stated that Rey heard a voice urging her to kill. So something was up when Han was killed. Kylo wanted to come with him and than the moment darkness fell he changed and then changed again like he woke up from a trance. I'm not trying to excuse him but it seems to me that there's a set up that he wasn't 100% himself at the moment of actual slaying. Snoke doesn't trust him so it makes sense if he found a way to ensure that Kylo goes through with murder (either trigger word/color/other or possessing/controlling his mind).

@Darth Dingbat

So i'm not the only one! I though about this too but i was sure it's just my vivid imagination. We know that Snoke has had many apprentices before Kylo but we don't know what happened to them all. My "theory" is that maybe he's using his apprentices to gain more power by "sucking" the Force out of them. So, he takes an apprentice, trains him/her until they reach their maximal potential, than takes away all their force and moves on to the next apprentice.
What made me think about this is Han's line "Snoke is only using you for your powers, when he gets what he wants, he'll crush you, you know it's true" And Kylo didn't deny that..maybe he knows what Snoke wants,but thinks that "It's too late" to get away from him
In the novel Rey hears Snoke's voice at the end of the duel, who says "Kill him" (Obviously he can affect other people on some level, maybe even control them like Valkorion did)? Maybe he even "pushed" Kylo so he can kill Han (i want to be free of this pain?). He could be torturing him mentally (visions, nightmares..things like that) What if Snoke felt that Kylo could go back to the light (and he doesn't want the light side powers, only dark) so he plans to get new, maybe even stronger apprentice. Then Kylo loses the duel but Rey doesn't kill him so Snoke has to go back to his original plan with Kylo.
Malachor is now cannon (Rebels) and Kylo's lightsaber was based on ancient design that dates back to the times of Malachor. Ezra found one (green). I don't watch every episode of Rebels but i saw the last one..they came across many, many Sith remains (from a battle that happened a long time ago) Maybe Snoke consumed their life force just like Valkorion did in EU.
And to me the biggest parallel between Valkorion and Snoke- Valkorion turned Revan to the dark side just like Snoke turned Kylo, and he fed on his Force (as maybe Snoke plans to do with Kylo)
I really thought it's just my silly theory so i didn't want to bother anyone with it..but now when i see that i'm not the only one i feel more confident to share it with You
EDIT: not to confuse anyone...Valkorion=Vitiate

Crap, I'll have to start watching Rebels. Is it on DVD yet?

vaderito wrote:Crap, I'll have to start watching Rebels. Is it on DVD yet?

@vaderito You can watch whole episodes on youtube

bela.mesecina wrote:

vaderito wrote:Crap, I'll have to start watching Rebels. Is it on DVD yet?

@vaderito You can watch whole episodes on youtube

@bela.mesecina

Oh, really? is there a list of episodes so that I start from the beginning? I could do that at work when I'm bored, muahahahaha.

vaderito wrote:

bela.mesecina wrote:

vaderito wrote:Crap, I'll have to start watching Rebels. Is it on DVD yet?

@vaderito You can watch whole episodes on youtube

@bela.mesecina

Oh, really? is there a list of episodes so that I start from the beginning? I could do that at work when I'm bored, muahahahaha.

@vaderito
Just search Star wars Rebels season 1 episode 1, then 2, 3, 4... Most of them are posted in HD

@bela.mesecina: Oh yes, the crossguard lightsaber!

And you know what else is curious? The Temple Guard in the vision, while masked, was made to sound exactly like Vitiate. The original Vitiate voice, not the Valkorion voice:



The vision Guard tells that Ezra "will become a servant of evil"... between that and the crossguard saber, I wonder if the end of Rebels will see the beginning of the Knights of Ren.

Anyway, if it's a silly theory, we'll be silly together

@bela.mesecina Thanks!

kanan is the guy whose saber called to Ezra even though Ezra is not related to him, right?

And here's the Vitiate voice for comparison:

Darth Dingbat wrote:@bela.mesecina: Oh yes, the crossguard lightsaber!

And you know what else is curious? The Temple Guard in the vision, while masked, was made to sound exactly like Vitiate. The original Vitiate voice, not the Valkorion voice:



The vision Guard tells that Ezra "will become a servant of evil"... between that and the crossguard saber, I wonder if the end of Rebels will see the beginning of the Knights of Ren.

Anyway, if it's a silly theory, we'll be silly together

@Darth Dingbat
How did i miss it?! Is it the same actor? He really sounds very similar. It's sooo good to know that i'm not alone with this
EDIT: I believe it will be the start of Knights of Ren, It fits perfectly with the rest of the story. I think it's even possible that Benicio Del Toro could be playing older Ezra, now KOR...He would be around 47 in TFA right?

@vaderito Yes, he becomes Ezra's teacher :-) And the scene when Ezra finds his lightsaber is very similar to Rey's..He enters unknown room and walks straight to the drawer/Maz's box and finds the saber, there isn't much light in the room, there's a droid following him...

@bela.mesecina: They only credit Jason Isaacs (who plays the Grand Inquisitor). So if the masked voice is Doug Bradley (Vitiate), he's uncredited... or else they transformed Jason Isaacs' voice to make him sound exactly like Doug Bradley as Vitiate!

BDT could be older Ezra, yes. Though I still cling to the idea of Benicio as King Prana Who knows, perhaps King Prana is Vitiate's new incarnation! "King Prana" does mean "cosmic ruler" or "ruler of all living beings", after all And Vitiate wanted to become the Force, so... prana = Force. Hmmmm.

(And Vitiate did have children as Valkorion... in this case, Rey Prana would have even more baggage than Rey Palpatine "Yes, Rey, I am your father. 5000-year-old immortal Emperor who wants to become a god. Join me, and together we can wipe out this galaxy and become the Force!")

Darth Dingbat wrote:@bela.mesecina: They only credit Jason Isaacs (who plays the Grand Inquisitor). So if the masked voice is Doug Bradley (Vitiate), he's uncredited... or else they transformed Jason Isaacs' voice to make him sound exactly like Doug Bradley as Vitiate!

BDT could be older Ezra, yes. Though I still cling to the idea of Benicio as King Prana Who knows, perhaps King Prana is Vitiate's new incarnation! "King Prana" does mean "cosmic ruler" or "ruler of all living beings", after all And Vitiate wanted to become the Force, so... prana = Force. Hmmmm.

(And Vitiate did have children as Valkorion... in this case, Rey Prana would have even more baggage than Rey Palpatine "Yes, Rey, I am your father. 5000-year-old immortal Emperor who wants to become a god. Join me, and together we can wipe out this galaxy and become the Force!")

@Darth Dingbat
Yeees that fits too! Can you remind me when they mentioned children, i don't remember that? And we know that Snoke is very old..hm..now i'm sure they were heavily inspired by all of this, but i think it would be better to have Snoke as new canon's version of Vitiate than BDT playing King Prana who's reincarnation of Vitiate...maybe he's one of his children? this theory becomes more and more interesting  with every minute
EDIT:Not his child, sorry, i meant descendant

bela.mesecina wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:@bela.mesecina: They only credit Jason Isaacs (who plays the Grand Inquisitor). So if the masked voice is Doug Bradley (Vitiate), he's uncredited... or else they transformed Jason Isaacs' voice to make him sound exactly like Doug Bradley as Vitiate!

BDT could be older Ezra, yes. Though I still cling to the idea of Benicio as King Prana Who knows, perhaps King Prana is Vitiate's new incarnation! "King Prana" does mean "cosmic ruler" or "ruler of all living beings", after all And Vitiate wanted to become the Force, so... prana = Force. Hmmmm.

(And Vitiate did have children as Valkorion... in this case, Rey Prana would have even more baggage than Rey Palpatine "Yes, Rey, I am your father. 5000-year-old immortal Emperor who wants to become a god. Join me, and together we can wipe out this galaxy and become the Force!")

@Darth Dingbat
Yeees that fits too! Can you remind me when they mentioned children, i don't remember that? And we know that Snoke is very old..hm..now i'm sure they were heavily inspired by all of this

@bela.mesecina

In Knights of the Fallen Empire, Valkorion has two sons (well, two to begin with, at least) and an evil daughter, who is his favourite. Their estranged mother was one of Valkorion's Knights of Zakuul.

@bela.mesecina: Snoke as Vitiate works too, of course! I suppose I'm a bit biased because, despite his scary theme song, I see Snoke as more of a slimy scumbag than as Vitiate-level menacing And Benicio plays menacing so well. He can be absolutely chilling.

@Darth Dingbat  I don't play video games, that must be why i don't know about them. I'll ask my brother, he played all of games
EDIT: I'm sure he would pull it off perfectly but i feel like Snoke is meant to be the big bad guy of this trilogy, if BDT gets that role than what will become of Snoke? BDT could fill in Kylo's place when he betrays Snoke

bela.mesecina wrote:@Darth Dingbat  I don't play video games, that must be why i don't know about them. I'll ask my brother, he played all of games

@bela.mesecina

These are the children of Valkorion:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arcann

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thexan

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vaylin

Darth Dingbat wrote:

bela.mesecina wrote:@Darth Dingbat  I don't play video games, that must be why i don't know about them. I'll ask my brother, he played all of games

@bela.mesecina

These are the children of Valkorion:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arcann

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thexan

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vaylin

@Darth Dingbat

Ohh, so that's where @Arcana got the idea for her name from

@bela.mesecina
Actually no...I wasn't a sw fan before tfa....my nick has been Arcana ever since this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura