Snoke in Episodes VIII

@SanghaRen

Don't be sorry! I didn't mention my old post to say "I was first!" I was really happy someone thinks like me, cause nobody really reacted to my post before (that's why you didn't notice it). I guess I'm not that good at expressing my thoughts in English

You're right, that is a long term plan... That's why I like the idea of Snoke being ancient, hiding in the shadows, "seeing the Empire rise and fall" and having some sort of a master plan all this time. I don't know if he would have to be on the watch at all times (he organised the First Order on the side), but definitely Kylo was a priority. Now, why?

I don't think it's because Kylo's more powerful (Snoke is a fearful type so he wouldn't want someone more powerful than him, maybe that's why he didn't finish Kylo's training). Prophecy... hm. We know of "bringing balance to the force" and many of us like the idea that this time it means the rise of grey Jedi. So maybe Snoke, wanting the Force to remain unbalanced, encourages Kylo to embrace only the darkness and in this way prevents him from fulfilling the prophecy? And yeah, probably he hates Jedis/Skywalkers, though i get the feeling that mainly he's scared of them.

I think that he wanted a DS user that would follow his commands cause he himself prefers to stay hidden. Once Snoke gets what he wants - FO ruling the galaxy and JEdi gone - he will crush poor Kylo, like Han said.

@Jozie

Your English is good. Honestly. You should not worry about it. I make mistakes in English all the time. I notice after I post. But then it's not important as long as we all understand each other. It's fun to be an international bunch. I did not see your post because I scanned through the pages too fast. I think sometimes some posts do not get full attention because we are all looking at something else at that precise moment. Nothing to do with quality of the post at all

I was saying "on the watch" because I was thinking about the imaginary friend who shows up when the kid calls him / her. I could see Little Ben call Snoke through the Force not even realizing he is using the Force. I also wonder how Snoke would appear to Kylo. Is there anything in canon material that indicates that force users can actually project themselves to other people? Apart from as a force ghost when you're dead.

I think Kylo might be more powerful than Snoke, but Snoke is somehow keeping him from reaching full power. I think this has been discussed by several posters. And I agree that's probably why he did not want to finish his training. Have you looked into the spoilers/rumors thread? There was apparently a leak from Croatian hackers that Kylo is going to do something crazy and mindblowing against the FO at the end of VIII. The leak is no longer on Internet so details are lost and it might be totally wrong. But it's easy to jump to the conclusion that the further Kylo goes from Snoke, the more his powers will rise and he does something insane against the FO once freed from Snoke's clutch.

Yes, that guy likes to remain hidden. And would crush Kylo when no longer needed, like Han said. Sneaky Creepy Snoke...

Another idea came to my mind regarding Snoke - maybe that one also went around already and I missed it.

My main issue with Snoke is that he is ancient - I think that was confirmed officially, but I am not sure so if anyone has an official source to add, would be good. Still no one seems to know him in the past trilogies so where was this guy?

In Underworld you have a trio of Eldest vampires who take turns in ruling. Two hibernates while one rules. And every X years, they switch. Might sound crazy, but what if the reason why Snoke was not known during the previous trilogies is because he was hibernating? When the Emperor died, he was awoken. I know that this idea does not really fit with the Emperor being a Sith while Snoke is not a Sith so why would they be part of a rotating rulership? But this rotating rulership might have been made out of necessity so even if their ideas of rulership are different, they still have to make it work for their own survival.

SanghaRen wrote:Another idea came to my mind regarding Snoke - maybe that one also went around already and I missed it.

My main issue with Snoke is that he is ancient - I think that was confirmed officially, but I am not sure so if anyone has an official source to add, would be good. Still no one seems to know him in the past trilogies so where was this guy?

In Underworld you have a trio of Eldest vampires who take turns in ruling. Two hibernates while one rules. And every X years, they switch. Might sound crazy, but what if the reason why Snoke was not known during the previous trilogies is because he was hibernating? When the Emperor died, he was awoken. I know that this idea does not really fit with the Emperor being a Sith while Snoke is not a Sith so why would they be part of a rotating rulership? But this rotating rulership might have been made out of necessity so even if their ideas of rulership are different, they still have to make it work for their own survival.

@SanghaRen

Did anyone ask Pablo about how ancient he is?

Maria Antonietta wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:Another idea came to my mind regarding Snoke - maybe that one also went around already and I missed it.

My main issue with Snoke is that he is ancient - I think that was confirmed officially, but I am not sure so if anyone has an official source to add, would be good. Still no one seems to know him in the past trilogies so where was this guy?

In Underworld you have a trio of Eldest vampires who take turns in ruling. Two hibernates while one rules. And every X years, they switch. Might sound crazy, but what if the reason why Snoke was not known during the previous trilogies is because he was hibernating? When the Emperor died, he was awoken. I know that this idea does not really fit with the Emperor being a Sith while Snoke is not a Sith so why would they be part of a rotating rulership? But this rotating rulership might have been made out of necessity so even if their ideas of rulership are different, they still have to make it work for their own survival.

@SanghaRen

Did anyone ask Pablo about how ancient he is?

I am quite sure that someone asked Pablo and he confirmed. The problem is I think it's an old tweet. I checked starwars.com but Snoke's description is very brief.

How is this for a crack theory, that might play into Renperor

Snoke Is A Yuuzhan Vong
ModernMrDarcy on Reddit theorizes that Supreme Leader Snoke is not Darth Plagueis, but a Yuuzhan Vong. The Yuuzhan Vong are described as “tall, muscular, and humanlike, but his face and body were horribly scarred and disfigured. He had no hair, and his nose was practically missing” with grey skin tony, which certainly sounds like an apt description.

The other strong point is that the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong is called the Supreme Overlord, or alternately, the Supreme One. Both Hux and (I think) Kylo are eager to refer to Snoke as ‘Supreme Leader Snoke’ which fits nicely with the semantics of the Yuuzhan Vong’s strictly regimented caste system. There are a host of other, less convincing points that I want to address, the first being that the Yuuzhan Vong use almost exclusively organic technology. One of my favorite fan theories refers to the fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are capable of turning planets into organic instruments of war. While the old canon (now de-canonized) only had these planets churning out troops, it doesn’t seem far-fetched to me to wonder if the Starkiller base could have been helped along with some Yuuzhan Vong technology. Think about the differences between Starkiller and the Death Star. Starkiller represents a modification of an existing planet, a marriage of Yuuzhan Vong and old imperial technology. The other notable point about their organic technology is that it is oftentimes better than the mechanical version. I noticed that the hologram that Snoke uses to communicate a) only works in that weird water-chamber (possible because they had to grow technology in order to communicate with him?) and b) is a lot clearer than the holograms that BB-8 was using. Possibly this is because the rebels had a terrible time of getting solid hologram tech, but similarly possibly it’s because they were using different technologies.

http://www.slashfilm.com/even-more-force-awakens-theories/2/

spacebaby45678 wrote:How is this for a crack theory, that might play into Renperor

Snoke Is A Yuuzhan Vong
ModernMrDarcy on Reddit theorizes that Supreme Leader Snoke is not Darth Plagueis, but a Yuuzhan Vong. The Yuuzhan Vong are described as “tall, muscular, and humanlike, but his face and body were horribly scarred and disfigured. He had no hair, and his nose was practically missing” with grey skin tony, which certainly sounds like an apt description.

The other strong point is that the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong is called the Supreme Overlord, or alternately, the Supreme One. Both Hux and (I think) Kylo are eager to refer to Snoke as ‘Supreme Leader Snoke’ which fits nicely with the semantics of the Yuuzhan Vong’s strictly regimented caste system. There are a host of other, less convincing points that I want to address, the first being that the Yuuzhan Vong use almost exclusively organic technology. One of my favorite fan theories refers to the fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are capable of turning planets into organic instruments of war. While the old canon (now de-canonized) only had these planets churning out troops, it doesn’t seem far-fetched to me to wonder if the Starkiller base could have been helped along with some Yuuzhan Vong technology. Think about the differences between Starkiller and the Death Star. Starkiller represents a modification of an existing planet, a marriage of Yuuzhan Vong and old imperial technology. The other notable point about their organic technology is that it is oftentimes better than the mechanical version. I noticed that the hologram that Snoke uses to communicate a) only works in that weird water-chamber (possible because they had to grow technology in order to communicate with him?) and b) is a lot clearer than the holograms that BB-8 was using. Possibly this is because the rebels had a terrible time of getting solid hologram tech, but similarly possibly it’s because they were using different technologies.

http://www.slashfilm.com/even-more-force-awakens-theories/2/

I don't see the link to Renperor. Unless you mean that he would be the next Supreme Overlord.

I think I'm the only person here who's read Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. Anyways, Snoke strikes me as maybe having a pretty strong Gentleman with Thistledown Hair vibe, an ancient entity who rules over an unseen realm (known as Lost Hell) and who has no problem with charming/taking control over humans for his own self interests. More important, he sees himself as the final arbiter over Magic (which is the same thing as the Force, a wild/powerful entity that only a few gifted souls can conjure/control) and in direct conflict with the two magicians in the title. He also seems to have emerged from the shadows to act in his own self interests after being a sideline player b/c the main controller of Magic (character known as the Raven King) has disappeared off to other worlds. So part of what he's doing is a power play,

He spends most of the story in the shadows, manipulating the human realm (and enchanting several characters to do his bidding against their wills), and finally emerging as the nemesis they need to defeat. I would be curious if Snoke is the same way, wanting to control the Force, along with my guess that he's directly responsible for what happened to Rey, including the likely death of her parents.

https://hurtfew.wikispaces.com/the+gentleman+with+the+thistle-down+hair

My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia. Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him." Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3. Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3. After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

Still trying to figure out how to edit from a smartphone.

Item 2 should read that over time Han would be less likely to be inclined to be scared FOR his son and more likely to be scared OF his son.

Macha Ren wrote:My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia. Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him." Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3. Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3. After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

@Macha Ren

Brilliant post! I agree with every word. Kylo/Ben needs to shake off Snoke if he is going to get anywhere, and I don't know if he is capable of doing it without some support. So far no one has either helped or been successful in helping him do that. That's where I hope Rey comes in.

Macha Ren wrote:My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia. Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him." Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3. Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3. After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

@Macha Ren

I just want to say that this is a fantastic post. Would "like" 100 times if I could.

Macha Ren wrote:My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia. Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him." Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3. Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3. After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

@Macha Ren

That is interesting because you see him as a bogeyman, wile @Jozie and I were seeing him as the imaginary friend, which would look more positive to Ben at least at the start. I think we can all agree that even in an imaginary friend scenario, he'd manipulate Ben.

I fear that you might be right about the scars. What I dislike about the idea is the sort of Frankenstein image it would give. Would it make any sense if instead he'd get hurt and bacta tank time, hurt again and then bacta tank time. The scars and physical pain would be gone, but the psychological effect would remain and maybe only some small fading scars.

Just hope Adam either learns to appreciate a very quiet hobby or the finer art of napping in makeup chair purgatory, because I have a feeling he's going to be there for hours on end.

some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

Macha Ren wrote:some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

@Macha Ren

Excellent! I kind of see Snoke as the master manipulator, using the end of the Empire and political/military instability as a power grab and carrying out a master plan about controlling/snuffing out the Force. Also the bit with Ben seems equal parts opportunistic (taking advantage of family instability) and downright persona/vicious in using him against his parents. That's some pretty nasty, pretty personal stuff. Especially with grooming him to emulate the biological father who did so much harm against his mother.

Haven't read Paradise Lost, but the book I always go on about as one of my favorites, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, has a similar world and master antagonist, the Man with the Thistledown Hair. Who was a minor/sideline individual who came to power after the departure of a previous powerful magician. And uses said powers in part to thwart/hurt the two magicians who emerge and in his mind, usurp the natural order of things. Also does some seriously personal and nasty things to one of the magicians as part of his agenda.

snufkin wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

@Macha Ren

Excellent! I kind of see Snoke as the master manipulator, using the end of the Empire and political/military instability as a power grab and carrying out a master plan about controlling/snuffing out the Force. Also the bit with Ben seems equal parts opportunistic (taking advantage of family instability) and downright persona/vicious in using him against his parents. That's some pretty nasty, pretty personal stuff. Especially with grooming him to emulate the biological father who did so much harm against his mother.

Haven't read Paradise Lost, but the book I always go on about as one of my favorites, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, has a similar world and master antagonist, the Man with the Thistledown Hair. Who was a minor/sideline individual who came to power after the departure of a previous powerful magician. And uses said powers in part to thwart/hurt the two magicians who emerge and in his mind, usurp the natural order of things. Also does some seriously personal and nasty things to one of the magicians as part of his agenda.

@snufkin

Ooh...that's very thought-provoking. And haven't we assumed that Leia and Snoke knew each other at some point? Putting it like that, it seems possible that Snoke has a personal axe to grind with Leia.

@ISeeAnIsland - I think that it's very personal and vicious towards her what he's enabled Ben to become. Question is when/if Ben wakes up to this reality, regardless of his complicated relationship with her. That Snoke is using him to damage her both as an enforcer/tool and by destroying the child she loves. And with the mentions of Fairy Tales, isn't it always the evil witch/sorcerer/whatever who's not invited or who's shut out and in turn curses the King/Queen's child as revenge?  

This is kind of the same conclusion that I came to after the first viewing of TFA in regards to Rey potentially being related to any OT/PT characters, specifically Obi-Wan. Her abandonment was the fall out from Snoke also going after the Kenobi family for some nasty score settling and power grab of taking away their FS child. Even if he's a brand new character, he knew people is my guess.

Macha Ren wrote:some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

@Macha Ren

This is completely brilliant. Seriously, I love this, all of it. We have talked a lot here about Kylo and Rey being a new Adam and Eve. And with all this business about Luke going to the first Jedi temple, it makes sense for Snoke to be an ancient long-term evil. There are also Expanded Universe plots (some of which have been incorporated into new canon and some which might still be) that deal with these kind of Ultra-Evil/Unnaturally Long Life type of characters who want to control the force itself. @panki and @Darth Dingbat and "Sylvia Snow" can tell you more about it. They are the EU and new canon experts. (If there are more such experts out there, jump right in :-)).

@snufkin an @ISeeAnIsland, I definitely think Snoke knew Leia. The way she spoke about Snoke to Han could be interpreted as hinting at some familiarity on both of their parts. Also, there is a bit in the novelization for TFA (which is very poorly written, but useful for certain bits of information) where Snoke, who says "Han Solo" very formally, mentions Leia as "Leia", not "Princess Leia or General Organa" or whatever, but "Leia." And when he says "Leia," Kylo immediately cuts Snoke off and tells him something that will make him happy, something like he'll destroy the Jedi or destroy the Resistance. Kylo never has a bad word to say about his mother and after a lot of discussions a number of us on the board think that he is actually protective of her. (It's a whole thing, so I don't want to go overboard with it here, but we can talk about it if you want in another post).

@Macha Ren, I do hope that you expand on these thoughts here, whether you want to call it a meta or not, because you are really onto something excellent here.

@snufkin, you make an great point about it being personal with Leia. I suppose Ben's perfect dark/light composition would make him a huge target for Snoke ... but there is such an insidiousness as to how he's done it (instead of just stealing Ben as a child for example), that makes me think he wants to destroy not just Ben, but the family ... by making them all turn on each other.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

@Macha Ren

This is completely brilliant. Seriously, I love this, all of it. We have talked a lot here about Kylo and Rey being a new Adam and Eve. And with all this business about Luke going to the first Jedi temple, it makes sense for Snoke to be an ancient long-term evil. There are also Expanded Universe plots (some of which have been incorporated into new canon and some which might still be) that deal with these kind of Ultra-Evil/Unnaturally Long Life type of characters who want to control the force itself. @panki and @Darth Dingbat and "Sylvia Snow" can tell you more about it. They are the EU and new canon experts. (If there are more such experts out there, jump right in :-)).

@snufkin an @ISeeAnIsland, I definitely think Snoke knew Leia. The way she spoke about Snoke to Han could be interpreted as hinting at some familiarity on both of their parts. Also, there is a bit in the novelization for TFA (which is very poorly written, but useful for certain bits of information) where Snoke, who says "Han Solo" very formally, mentions Leia as "Leia", not "Princess Leia or General Organa" or whatever, but "Leia." And when he says "Leia," Kylo immediately cuts Snoke off and tells him something that will make him happy, something like he'll destroy the Jedi or destroy the Resistance. Kylo never has a bad word to say about his mother and after a lot of discussions a number of us on the board think that he is actually protective of her. (It's a whole thing, so I don't want to go overboard with it here, but we can talk about it if you want in another post).

@Macha Ren, I do hope that you expand on these thoughts here, whether you want to call it a meta or not, because you are really onto something excellent here.

@snufkin, you make an great point about it being personal with Leia. I suppose Ben's perfect dark/light composition would make him a huge target for Snoke ... but there is such an insidiousness as to how he's done it (instead of just stealing Ben as a child for example), that makes me think he wants to destroy not just Ben, but the family ... by making them all turn on each other.

@SoloSideCousin

This is all really brilliant. And I don't know why I hadn't thought of any this before, but when you put everything together, it really does seem like Snoke has some sort of personal vendetta against the Skywalker family. I couldn't even begin to guess at why, but I do think that will be one of the "reveals" when we hear more about what happened to Ben/Luke.

I also think that you're all onto something with Snoke's primary motivation being Force-related. I wonder how the Skywalker family ties into that.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Macha Ren

This is completely brilliant. Seriously, I love this, all of it. We have talked a lot here about Kylo and Rey being a new Adam and Eve. And with all this business about Luke going to the first Jedi temple, it makes sense for Snoke to be an ancient long-term evil. There are also Expanded Universe plots (some of which have been incorporated into new canon and some which might still be) that deal with these kind of Ultra-Evil/Unnaturally Long Life type of characters who want to control the force itself. @panki and @Darth Dingbat and "Sylvia Snow" can tell you more about it. They are the EU and new canon experts. (If there are more such experts out there, jump right in :-)).

@snufkin an @ISeeAnIsland, I definitely think Snoke knew Leia. The way she spoke about Snoke to Han could be interpreted as hinting at some familiarity on both of their parts. Also, there is a bit in the novelization for TFA (which is very poorly written, but useful for certain bits of information) where Snoke, who says "Han Solo" very formally, mentions Leia as "Leia", not "Princess Leia or General Organa" or whatever, but "Leia." And when he says "Leia," Kylo immediately cuts Snoke off and tells him something that will make him happy, something like he'll destroy the Jedi or destroy the Resistance. Kylo never has a bad word to say about his mother and after a lot of discussions a number of us on the board think that he is actually protective of her. (It's a whole thing, so I don't want to go overboard with it here, but we can talk about it if you want in another post).

@Macha Ren, I do hope that you expand on these thoughts here, whether you want to call it a meta or not, because you are really onto something excellent here.

@snufkin, you make an great point about it being personal with Leia. I suppose Ben's perfect dark/light composition would make him a huge target for Snoke ... but there is such an insidiousness as to how he's done it (instead of just stealing Ben as a child for example), that makes me think he wants to destroy not just Ben, but the family ... by making them all turn on each other.

@SoloSideCousin

It just strikes me a very much the kidnapped/cursed loved one trope from fairy tales. Like I've said, the book (and BBC adaption) I keep thinking of, Susanna Clark's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell has a very nasty/vindictive Snoke-like character, who does something pretty similar to one of the main characters and has an agenda involving control over Magic (that book's equivalent to the Force). Or when Stephen Moffat took over as the showrunner for Doctor Who, the theme was dark fairy tales and the same thing happened with an act of revenge by enemies that involved a kidnapped/brainwashed child. It's very very personal with targeting Leia's son and Luke's (maybe misguided but no doubt well-intentioned) attempt to restart the Jedi. And from what you all have said about the tie-in book, she also had her political career destroyed in the process. So they've all had their lives ruined, turned against each other in a way, and even set it up that if it weren't for Poe's quick thinking and Rey intercepting BB-8, there would've been an immediate confrontation where Luke and Ben may have killed each other. Even still, telling her son to murder his father/her husband is vicious and devastating blow to Leia.

tl;dr - it seems pretty personal and nasty to me, so I hope that either Rey or Leia punches Snoke in the balls pretty hard when there's a final showdown.

Macha Ren wrote:some thoughts about the role of Snoke. I originally wrote it elsewhere, but want this group's thoughts on it...

Snoke strikes me as evil since the dawn of time type of badness, perhaps in a Milton-esque Force version of Paradise Lost where he embodies the dark side in a civil war against the light. What if the force has splintered because of schism much like Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven leading to his expulsion. What if the Force was once a single entity that has undergone a split which has caused the imbalance in the Force.

So what would Snoke want in his long game? Control of Force, and he is trying to do it be extinguishing the light. Controlling the galaxy is a more secular goal, and I don't think he's the Supreme Leader to command the galaxy. Rather, that is someone like Hux's goal. Hux is the one that gives the soaring rhetoric before destroying the Hosnian System. The First Order is merely the muscle to extinguish and purge the light from the Galaxy.

But then you have these balanced characters born with equal portions of light and dark representing balance. If we are using the Paradise Lost analogy, these are the ones that were "created in God's favor" per Milton--Adam and Eve

You have Ben Solo who embodied that equal parts imagery of the Force. (And there may also be Rey whom I would not be surprised is also equal parts light and dark.) That perfect balance in the force could possibly represent the "created without sin" imagery of humanity before Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Adam and Eve were created to be perfect entities, created in the Maker's likeness to be the caretakers and guardians of the Maker's creation.

What if those born grey were supposed to be the Force's caretakers? If Rey is balanced as well, then she is a target of Snoke's for the same reason.

Getting back to Paradise Lost, Lucifer waged his war by corrupting the Maker/Force's perfect creation--humanity by instilling sin. He tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and those of us who went to Sunday School know the rest of that story.

But in the case of Star Wars, it wasn't Eve that was corrupted, it was Ben Solo. He wasn't groomed to succeed Snoke or be his right hand in an secular battle. He is a pawn in the upper story of the Force civil war. Corrupting a balanced force adept would make destroying the light all the easier.

And Han was absolutely right, as Kylo Ren is not Snoke's heir apparent, once that balance is destroyed forever, Kylo's purpose has been fulfilled and Snoke can crush and toss out like garbage.

Way too ambitious of a stab at meta, but it could be a plausible scenario with Snoke.

@Macha Ren

Did y'all see the Jim Hensen movie The Dark Crystal from the 1980's?

Macha Ren wrote:My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman  under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia.  Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him."  Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3.  Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3.  After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

@Macha Ren

This is great, all of it!
1.  Re bolded:  this isn't canon, is it?  I agree with you that this is what happened, but not canon (yet), right?
3.  Re bolded:  again, agree, but it isn't canon that snoke abused him, is it? (I'm trying to separate canon from head canon).  A few observations:  Kylo stands up to Snoke, albeit halfheartedly, when he says "I can get the map; I just need your guidance." So it isn't clear to me how Kylo feels about Snoke, other than rather desperately wanting his approval. Does he ever address snoke as "supreme leader"?  I can't remember.  He isn't all foot-kissy to snoke like vader was to palpatine.  

Again, great job!

Slade wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:My thoughts on Snoke:

1. he's been in Ben Solo's head since Ben was a toddler. He is some of Ben's first memories and was the real bogeyman  under the bed. And he was adept at hiding his Force signature from Leia.  Some of Kylo's resentment for his parents stems from early pleas to search the closet and under the bed for monsters like many small kids do and getting the typical blow off reassurance that kids do that "there are no such things as monsters," only the monster was very much real and a little boy was defenseless to fight off the monster when he was alone in the dead of night.

2. Many of Ben's outbursts/behaviors As a child were Snike-mediated. The hot temper, volatile behavior. This was an intentional move to distance Han from his son, to make him intentionally feel there was "too much Vader in him."  Han would not be aware of Snoke's interference and such behavior would, over time, make Han less scared FOR his son. This would also ultimately be part of the plan to distance Ben's parents from each other. In other words, Ben wasn't the only one manipulated. All three of them were played.

3.  Kylo Ren is afraid of Snoke to this day. He's an alpha male complete with territorial marking of all the corners when in the same room as Hux. He tried to establish dominance over the captives he interrogates. Yet he is very submissive with Snoke. In the unmasked meeting with Snoke, he looks like he's either going to cry or vomit as if he's waiting for the other shoe to fall. He acts like an abused child trying to make himself as small as possible and not draw attention from a raging abuser. This makes me think that Snoke's training is centered on fear, intimidation and mental/physical pain. Look at the anguished lion on Poe and Rey's faces when Kylo goes into their heads. Put that on steroids and you have Snoke going into Kylo's head. Also he just about every inch of skin is covered, minus his face. I would not be surprised (and I've said it another post) that there is a reveal on par with unmasked Vader in ESB where we see that he is covered in scars and that the one Rey put on his face is just the latest of many.

3.  After his failed duel w Rey, Kylo is summoned to "complete his training."!it includes discipline for no map, no droid, no Rey, no Starkiller Base, and offering to teach Rey and not hand Rey over to Snoke. The big question is whether this maltreatment coupled with his father's warning that Snoke will crush him when he gets what he wants enough of a catalyst to move Kylo toward open rebellion with his master.

4. Kylo will have an "aha!" Moment when he realizes that the Supreme Leader is not wise, as he tells his father in a regurgitated mantra and changes his tune to "the Supreme Leader is a thief."

Snoke has mentally molested Ben Solo for as long as he can remember. It has shattered his moral compass. If he has any shot at survival, and ultimately redemption, he needs to acknowledge that he is a manipulated victim.

Hopefully that first step toward freedom and healing will come with him asking Rey for help

@Macha Ren

This is great, all of it!
1.  Re bolded:  this isn't canon, is it?  I agree with you that this is what happened, but not canon (yet), right?
3.  Re bolded:  again, agree, but it isn't canon that snoke abused him, is it? (I'm trying to separate canon from head canon).  A few observations:  Kylo stands up to Snoke, albeit halfheartedly, when he says "I can get the map; I just need your guidance." So it isn't clear to me how Kylo feels about Snoke, other than rather desperately wanting his approval. Does he ever address snoke as "supreme leader"?  I can't remember.  He isn't all foot-kissy to snoke like vader was to palpatine.  

Again, great job!

@Slade

Number 1 is canon from TFA novel which mentioned Snoke being there from the earliest ages.

It's canon that Snoke abused him to the extent that (1) the novel said Snoke was trying to push Ben to the dark from the earliest ages ... that's mental infiltration of a child towards something harmful to him, that's abuse whether they use the word or not, (2) In the documentary JJ Abrams specifically said, "someone was watching their boy" ... "their boy had a target on his back, (3) All the acting choices by Adam Driver that "code" Kylo as abused, (4) Han's reaction to "It was Snoke," where he completely changes his tune on Kylo, and (5) the generally pervy differential between Snoke and Kylo and Snoke and Kylo & Hux (beautiful men fighting); (6) Kylo's complete lack of glee with the dark side, (7) Kylo talking to a haunted helmet like he's his only friend, and ( the producers called Kylo's room "the padded cell" ... Han and Leia might raise a kid with issues, but not a "padded cell" type of kid ... that's Snoke's doing.

Kind of  necroposting here.  I've been thinking about Kylo and Snoke's relationship.  It may seem like I"m beating a dead horse, but what traits/behaviours of Kylo's make you (plural you) think Kylo was abused by snoke (as opposed to kylo's behavior being caused by other trauma)?  I tend to think Snoke did abuse him somehow, but I'm just curious to hear other takes on this.  I'm wondering of some of y'all picked up on different behaviors than I did.  

What do you think of the people out there who don't see anything wrong with Kylo/snoke's relationship?  I have seen some people say it was a healthy mentor/student relationship (??).  Do you think those people just were not paying attention?

Also, what elements are making us identify snoke/snoke's relationship with kylo as pervy?  I agree that it is pervy; I'm just wondering what things led other people to that conclusion.