Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 7

by Sylvia Snow Wed 15 Jun 2016, 6:22 pm

@Rimfaxe96

Totally agree with you there. The more I think about TFA, it's clearly build on the way of how Yin and Yang work. Rey is the Day and Kylo is the Night. It's said that the Force is seeking balance and the neither Sith nor Jedi were able to understand the Force. The Sith on take root in the Dark side of the Force and in emotions such as hatred or pains, ignore the Light while the Jedi fore sake emotions in fear of corruption which eventually led to their downfall.

But during the timeline in TFA, there're no long any Sith exist, according to the producers, Snoke and Kylo are not Sith, just some Dark Side Force users. With that Kylo can use the advantage from both the Jedi and the Sith in order to thrive, he already becoming the "Yin " half. This means that the rest will be on Rey, in other to bring balance to the Force, she must not become a Jedi for that name is no longer needed, but instead just be a Light side Force user who can also touch into the DarkSide power if necessary. Clearly they're bonded with each other and the story is heading toward the "Grey" because it would be a total waste and mistakes to introduce these kind of characters and just having the traditional, hero/heroine defeat the villain then end with the usual happy ending

by **Darth Dementor** Wed 15 Jun 2016, 6:56 pm

This video seems to good to be true, if accurate. It alleges, after Rey's force vision, a voice whispered "it's Ben." For more details give the clip a go.

by Krafty Wed 15 Jun 2016, 8:36 pm

@Darth Dementor
I stopped breathing when I heard it. It seems legit.
I thought it was a joke before I actually heard it on the Blu Ray disc. Shocked

by Sylvia Snow Wed 15 Jun 2016, 9:08 pm

@Krafty

My reaction upon hearing that line.
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 7 - Page 30 T8li2tnkprpl

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 7 - Page 30 T8li2tnkprpl

The existence of that line is the proof that I need to know that the producers are planning something big for Kylo/Ben, possibly his redemption. They even using his birth name, Ben, and later Han also use that name to called out to him. Which mean that, to all those who are matter, they still sees him as "Ben" the son of Leia and Han, who just a little lost on his way just like his grandpa, Anakin, did. But unlike Anakin, Kylo stills have people to fight and be there waiting for his return.

Sneaky JJ + the producers team Twisted Evil

by Krafty Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:03 pm

@Sylvia Snow
Same! I feel like its just a matter of time before all these circumstantial pieces of evidence coalesce and make for the unbreakable outcome of Reylo.

I hope we get some more little bits like this in the future to hold us over until VIII.
Until then, I'm just going to keep looking at these beauties and know they are both metaphorically screwed.
You don't look at somebody in films like this and have it go nowhere. Mwehe

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 7 - Page 30 13479300_964446557009779_1163915030_n

by Saracene Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:06 pm

BastilaBey wrote:
Mana wrote:Rey At Risk: Keeping Lucasfilm Accountable to Her Potential
Rey At Risk : Keeping Lucasfilm accountable to her potential wrote:Rey discovers and accesses Force powers – mind control, telekinesis, and lightsaber dueling – not from mentors Maz or Han Solo, but from the next-generation Skywalker character, Kylo Ren.
(Rey) successfully injures Kylo – but is denied the opportunity to make an active choice between the light and dark sides of the Force in how to finish the duel with him by a literal chasm opening between them

Again...is this like a blatant refusal to accept the importance of the dynamic between Kylo and Rey??? its frickin staring them right in the face...
@Mana

This article is a good example of something I've mentioned before - the danger of a backlash once people realize that the ST is about Kylo just as much, if not more, than Rey. As the protagonist she is our eyes into the Skywalker family and the audience's perception of Kylo will change as hers does.

But some people are going to be pissed if they then think TFA was not as progressive as they first thought, that even though a woman and a black man were the heroes, underneath the ST will be about the last Skywalker redeeming himself, seemingly against the odds.

I know Rey is going to be critical to that process and will develop in herself, but the idea won't sit right with some people, especially not before the story is told (these few months in the fandom have taught me people love to judge stories before they're told!). It's one of the criticisms I've seen of Reylo, as if by us pointing out what looks likely with the evolution of this trilogy, we are being sexist by 'diminishing Rey's character'.

@BastilaBey

Yes I think some backlash of this kind is inevitable. Thing is though, I suspect many people who would complain about this are also the same people who gushed about what an awesome and perfect heroine Rey was in TFA. Problem is, while making your lead character so capable and amazing in the very first film can be instantly gratifying to the audience, it doesn't leave much room for growth over the course of the trilogy. And films like Star Wars need this - big transformative arcs, drama etc. Of course one way to handle this would be to make Rey darker and tempted, but as much as I would have liked to see it happen, I doubt it will, especially with these rumours of dark!Luke which would then position Rey as the real moral centre who proves him wrong. There's also a possible arc of Rey growing up as a sexual being, but this is not really the kind of stuff that drives an adventure/epic space saga. It's more like a subject for a character piece or low-key drama.

In short, if Rey's character is mainly in the story to be an adored heroine who kicks a** from the get-go and is unfailingly moral, it's inevitably the other characters who provide the sort of fireworks Star Wars movies need.

by Mana Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:04 pm

Combining Rey's and Kylo's stories will give Rey a transformative arc...which would never happen any other way. The reason Kylo is such a central a central character in Rey's story is because he's important to her...or I'll just say, he will be important to her.

by Saracene Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:14 pm

Mana wrote:Combining Rey's and Kylo's stories will give Rey a transformative arc...which would never happen any other way. The reason Kylo is such a central a central character in Rey's story is because he's important to her...or I'll just say, he will be important to her.

@Mana

While this arc would be transformative for Kylo, I don't necessarily see how it would transform Rey to be honest, other than turning her into a girl who is in love. If you look at Beauty and the Beast, it's really the Beast who undergoes a transformation, whereas Belle pretty much starts off awesome and keeps on being awesome till the end.

For all that, no one ever says that Belle is just a player in Beast's arc or whatever, or that the story is not really about her. With Rey and Kylo, it's more the issue of who's continuing the Skywalker line that makes people question who the story is really about.

by snufkin Thu 16 Jun 2016, 1:43 am

Transformative for her is at least initially about getting out of poverty and starting to use her talents/skills for more than just survival. Wish I could remember where I read it, but I made the mistake of looking at the comments for a review and in the middle of the "Mary Sue" comments was somebody who worked in Education. Stating that Rey made her think of some of the kids she worked with, where they came from rough/deprived backgrounds. But that if you gave them access to the resources Middle Class kids and the type of support that wasn't available in a situation where people are trying to get by day to day, how much those kids finally had the opportunity to flourish. It's not hugely sexy, but it is definitely something that's a thing and inspiring in its own realistic way.

by Mana Thu 16 Jun 2016, 2:15 am

Whatever they've planned for Rey, I cant wait to see it. Seeing Rey and Kylo again is gonna be so epic...

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:30 am

Saracene wrote:
Mana wrote:Combining Rey's and Kylo's stories will give Rey a transformative arc...which would never happen any other way. The reason Kylo is such a central a central character in Rey's story is because he's important to her...or I'll just say, he will be important to her.
@Mana

While this arc would be transformative for Kylo, I don't necessarily see how it would transform Rey to be honest, other than turning her into a girl who is in love. If you look at Beauty and the Beast, it's really the Beast who undergoes a transformation, whereas Belle pretty much starts off awesome and keeps on being awesome till the end.

For all that, no one ever says that Belle is just a player in Beast's arc or whatever, or that the story is not really about her. With Rey and Kylo, it's more the issue of who's continuing the Skywalker line that makes people question who the story is really about.

@Saracene

Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.I don't think there would be any backlash if they advertised her as the new Leia for example.I Mean while Leia was a kick a** heroine she didn't have as much character development,net as Luke and Han did her main arc was falling in love with Han basically .However that hasn't stopped her from becoming an iconic character just like Belle.
With Rey however if not only her parentage but her entire role in the ST is a re herring than I fear that there will be backlash and I wouldn't blame them to be honest.I want Rey to evolve just as much as the other characters especially if she's truly meant to be the new heroine.
There's also the issue with Reylo romance.Kylo is a very complicated character who's done many messed up things if Rey stays the same person she is in TFA and her only arc would be falling in love with him would she be suitable enough to be with him as she is right now?To be able to understand why he's done some of ten things he did and why he became Kylo Ren in the first place she should have to go through some of the things he did she should be tempted by the DS or even fall to it temporarily.

by Saracene Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:51 am

CienaRee wrote:Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.

@CienaRee

I hope that Rey has an arc of her own too, I just find it hard to see what it could be, at the moment. Luke in the OT was easy - he wanted to become a Jedi like his father and that's what his arc was all about. In the ST, I can see the possibilities for Kylo (redemption), Finn (becoming more heroic and leader-like), Luke (rediscovering his Jedi master mojo), but Rey is a bit of a blank. One could say that maybe her arc is about mirroring Luke and becoming a Jedi warrior herself, but considering that in TFA she already mastered the Jedi mind trick in a blink of an eye and beat her main opponent in a lightsaber fight, there's not exactly much excitement left in that arc.

by MindAndMagic Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:53 am

That's the thing. I've never been a passionate fan as some SW fanatics. For the first time ever it deals with themes I'm interested in as a reader and viewer. Still, the OT films are cinematic classics, very original for their time. Luke was my undisputed favourite even though Han Solo had a more vocal following. I love Luke, he is awesome and I don't mean to diminish his character by any means, but Luke didn't really have that much of a development over the course of the three movies. At least not in the way I understand it, i.e. radical change of beliefs. Sure he discovered and developed his force abilities, underwent Jedi training, learned the truth about his family, saved his father. Those are all big things. However, he never changed at heart, as a person except, of course, that he became stronger and learned to believe in himself, which was the point of his coming of age story. The Emperor (who I also love because I always appreciate the chess master, especially if the actor is good) tried to lure him into the Dark side, but Luke resisted. I actually think he will change more radically as a character in this trilogy where he is no longer the protagonist. Anakin/Vader, on the other hand, was the true centre of everything from the start if you look back at all six movies, he underwent massive development and reached full circle in his convictions. That's what will happen with Kylo, I think. Hopefully not too painful and sooner than expected. He is no redemption by death material. While Kylo connects the dots in this case, Rey is more of a Luke type character (maybe that's one of the reasons some people got confused that they're related), which is not a bad thing. As it was already said, the protagonist is not necessarily the one that drives the main conflict. Kylo is her designated adversary, the obstacle she has to overcome. They are destined to develop in parallel and achieve balance together.

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:58 am

Saracene wrote:
CienaRee wrote:Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.
@CienaRee

I hope that Rey has an arc of her own too, I just find it hard to see what it could be, at the moment. Luke in the OT was easy - he wanted to become a Jedi like his father and that's what his arc was all about. In the ST, I can see the possibilities for Kylo (redemption), Finn (becoming more heroic and leader-like), Luke (rediscovering his Jedi master mojo), but Rey is a bit of a blank. One could say that maybe her arc is about mirroring Luke and becoming a Jedi warrior herself, but considering that in TFA she already mastered the Jedi mind trick in a blink of an eye and beat her main opponent in a lightsaber fight, there's not exactly much excitement left in that arc.

@Saracene

I agree.That's why the only arc that would somewhat makes sense to me is if she becomes darker.I mean like you said Rey did everything Luke learned and did in the course of the OT(learned she's FS and defeated the villian in the first movie of the trilogy) and his character progression made sense.With Rey what's left for her?If she doesn't fall to the DS or isn't tempted by it her only function would be being awesome which would be great for little girls but boring and not very memorable to others.

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 6:11 am

Queen of the Knights wrote:That's the thing. I've never been a passionate fan as some SW fanatics. For the first time ever it deals with themes I'm interested in as a reader and viewer. Still, the OT films are cinematic classics, very original for their time. Luke was my undisputed favourite even though Han Solo had a more vocal following. I love Luke, he is awesome and I don't mean to diminish his character by any means, but Luke didn't really have that much of a development over the course of the three movies. At least not in the way I understand it, i.e. radical change of beliefs. Sure he discovered and developed his force abilities, underwent Jedi training, learned the truth about his family, saved his father. Those are all big things. However, he never changed at heart, as a person except, of course, that he became stronger and learned to believe in himself. The Emperor (who I also love because I always appreciate the chess master, especially if the actor is good) tried to lure him into the Dark side, but Luke resisted. I actually think he will change more radically as a character in this trilogy where he is no longer the protagonist. Anakin/Vader, on the other hand, was actually the true centre of everything from the start, he underwent massive development and reached full circle in his convictions. That's what will happen with Kylo, I think. Hopefully not too painful and sooner than expected. While he connect the dots in this case, Rey is more of a Luke type character (maybe that's one of the reasons some people got confused that they're related), which is by no means bad. As it was already said, the protagonist is not necessarily the one that drives the main conflict. Kylo is her designated adversary, the obstacle she has to overcome. They are destined to develop in parallel and achieve balance together.

@Queen of the Knights
You make some great points( I wasn't a passionate SW fan either it's TFA that got me interested in the SW universe) but I think Kylo and Rey paralleling each other would have worked much better if they had made are more of a female version Han Solo-more hare need by the life she had to live,not beliving in the Force,etc and during the course of the trilogy her opinion starts changing as she discovers her powers and as a result of that becomes much more optimistic and hopeful.Now that would have been a great arc which could have mirrored Kylo's but since they already made her hopeful and sweet and super powerful it's hard to imagine what more they could do with her that wouldn't make her look like the perfect MarySue who never makes any mistake.
I don't know maybe it's the feminist in me who wants to see Rey go through as much character development as Kylo does.

by Saracene Thu 16 Jun 2016, 6:34 am

Re: Luke and Vader in the OT, I don't know if I'm onboard with the idea that the OT is really Vader's story. To me, the OT is very much Luke's coming-of-age story and Vader is just a part of that. I guess my view is partially about the fact that I have trouble seeing the PT and OT as one whole thing, and it's really the PT that elevated Anakin/Vader to the significance that he never had in the OT, the Chosen One and all that stuff. Rewatching ANH, it's just so obvious that Vader was never intended to be this grand figure, I was in fact shocked by how unimportant he feels in that movie. Kylo in TFA by comparison feels like a totally different deal with a completely different setup, the biggest difference IMO being that he's the younger generation going forward, not an older villain to the young hero.

by Darth Dingbat Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:20 am

CienaRee wrote:
Saracene wrote:
CienaRee wrote:Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.
@CienaRee

I hope that Rey has an arc of her own too, I just find it hard to see what it could be, at the moment. Luke in the OT was easy - he wanted to become a Jedi like his father and that's what his arc was all about. In the ST, I can see the possibilities for Kylo (redemption), Finn (becoming more heroic and leader-like), Luke (rediscovering his Jedi master mojo), but Rey is a bit of a blank. One could say that maybe her arc is about mirroring Luke and becoming a Jedi warrior herself, but considering that in TFA she already mastered the Jedi mind trick in a blink of an eye and beat her main opponent in a lightsaber fight, there's not exactly much excitement left in that arc.
@Saracene

I agree.That's why the only arc that would somewhat makes sense to me is if she becomes darker.I mean like you said Rey did everything Luke learned and did in the course of the OT(learned she's FS and defeated the villian in the first movie of the trilogy) and his character progression made sense.With Rey what's left for her?If she doesn't fall to the DS or isn't tempted by it her only function would be being awesome which would be great for little girls but boring and not very memorable to others.

@CienaRee

I know I keep saying this, but the parentage mystery is the only thing that's entirely Rey's own in this story (so far). And I don't mean this in the sense of her being so boring that the parentage mystery is the only interesting thing about her: her stubborn loyalty to the family she's waiting for is her defining characteristic in most of TFA. There's something almost pathological about that desperate need to stay on Jakku, and even though she has nominally set it aside at the end of TFA, I'd honestly be surprised if that family doesn't come back to haunt her, one way or another.

In fact, I'd be very disappointed if it doesn't, because that stubborn loyalty is one of the most interesting things about Rey. If she was really capable of brushing the whole thing off as quickly as that - after about 15 years of single-minded waiting! - then the stubborn loyalty was little more than an empty plot contrivance to begin with.

I don't think the family issue is anywhere near resolved for Rey's character just because she found a new "family" and accepted that she can't stay on Jakku forever. Just because she has embraced a new future, that doesn't mean the past can't come back to haunt her.

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:11 am

Have you guys seen this post by oldadastra.tumblr.com: https://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/145999835464/shifting-terrain-conflicting-canon-and-snokes
Here she discusses how much influence Snoke had over Kylo and to what extent that has changed from one director to another:

Some time ago a question from an anon prompted me to look at what we know (or more accurately, what we don’t know) about Snoke’s influence on Ben Solo in the time before The Force Awakens. An examination of the different canon texts now available to us: Alan Dean Foster’s novelization, the film itself, and Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, suggest a tale in motion as the new saga’s storytelling shifts from JJ Abrams’ hands into Rian Johnson’s.
The chronological positions of the three versions of past events, all describing fragments of Ben Solo’s backstory with Snoke; and the ways in which they differ, suggest that what the creators are choosing to tell us about this relationship is changing. Might what eventually becomes canon regarding Snoke’s influence on Ben Solo also be in flux?

Pablo Hidalgo on multiple canon sources
Pablo Hidalgo has told us to consider the film the most canon of sources when there are apparent conflicts or contradictions in the story; the novels are considered “adaptations” of canon events.
By this reasoning, apparent contradictions between the novel and the film may eventually be resolved by the novel being considered an “adaptation of a canon event,” i.e., less canon than the event as it is told in the film. Even so, the presence of the contradictory information hints at creators’ earlier and/or original intent; and tells us something about the direction of the story, as does its alteration. In this essay, I’m looking at the differences between these canon sources, and asking how these apparently evolving changes may play out in Episodes VIII and IX.
Alan Dean Foster’s novelization lies at the earliest point in a storytelling timeline, and offers the most clues to the creators’ original storytelling intent. While it was released simultaneously with the film, Foster was working from an earlier draft of the script, and his novelization includes quite a bit of material which did not reach the screen, including entire scenes: Unkar Plutt following Rey to Jakku, and the story of Poe’s escape from the Tie fighter crash and his return to the Resistance, for example. In other instances (the interrogation scene and Maz’s conversation with Han Solo on Takodana are especially notable), Foster’s dialogue follows that of the film quite closely, but also includes additional lines which serve as a kind of forensic evidence of the creators’ early intent; a palimpsest showing the “underwriting” behind what is the most canon text: the film.

What was the nature of Snoke’s influence on Ben Solo?
Alan Dean Foster’s novelization
Alan Dean Foster’s novelization, the earliest of the three canonical versions of the story, suggests that Leia did have early awareness of Snoke’s influence on Ben, which she kept from Han. How much of this she learned after Ben’s fall is unclear. Of the three canon versions of Ben Solo’s backstory and Snoke’s influence on him, this one is the most detailed and most troubling (begins loc 3095):
“No. It was Snoke.”
Han drew back slightly. “Snoke?”
She nodded. “He knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”
“You knew this from the beginning? Why didn’t you tell me?”
She sighed. “Many reasons. I was hoping that I was wrong, that it wasn’t true. I hoped I could sway him, turn him away from the dark side, without having to involve you.” A small smile appeared. “You had— you have— wonderful qualities, Han, but patience and understanding were never among them. I was afraid that your reactions would only drive him farther to the dark side. I thought I could shield him from Snoke’s influence and you from what was happening.” Her voice dropped. “It’s clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvement would have made a difference, we’ll never know.”
He had trouble believing what he was hearing. “So Snoke was watching our son.”
“Always,” she told him. “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side.”
In this version of events, we are told that Snoke was watching Ben, manipulating him from the shadows, from “the beginning,” to pull Ben to the dark side. Perhaps even worse, Leia knew it was going on, tried and failed to intervene; AND chose not to tell Han what was happening to their son.
In the novelization’s description of the Snoke’s influence on Ben, the degree of agency Ben might have been able to exercise in determining his own fate is very much in doubt. The Tumblr fandom has quite justifiably interpreted this version of Snoke’s influence on/interaction with Ben as that of a predatory adult grooming a child for abuse. I know I’m not alone in having experienced a sort of choking horror at the novel’s implication that Ben Solo was a profoundly victimized child – a conclusion one can reasonably draw from this version of events in Ben Solo’s backstory.
Aside: In the “shipping” fandom, there’s talk ad nauseam about the “problematic” nature of any relationship which includes the character Kylo Ren. I’d argue that the most problematic ‘ship’ of all is presented in Foster’s novelization, in a dynamic between the child Ben Solo and a thinly-coded adult predator, Snoke.
The Force Awakens film
“No, it was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side.”
In the most canon version of events, the film, we have only Leia’s line, “No, it was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side,” on which to base our conclusions about Snoke’s influence on Ben.
Gone are all references to Leia’s having known what was happening to Ben before his fall to the dark. There are no clues remaining to tell us when Snoke’s influence began. While the dialogue still suggests that Leia knew more about the situation than Han, we are spared having to wrestle with the suggestion that she might have known, but chose not to tell her husband that their child was in danger from an outside influence that had targeted him from “the beginning.”
We have comments from both JJ Abrams and Adam Driver discussing the character of Kylo Ren in the “Behind the Scenes” documentary which was part of The Force Awakens DVD release. Both describe a degree of absentee parenting as a formative part of Ben Solo’s childhood. Abrams’ comments refer directly to Snoke as an outside influence targeting Han and Leia’s child to gain his allegiance. Driver’s comments focus on a lack of parental/familial guidance, a sense of abandonment, and his character’s resulting anger:
Abrams:
“It’s more than just having a ‘bad seed’ as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally. So this mother and father had a target as a son, someone who’s watching their boy, and these parents aren’t there enough to guide him.”
Driver:
“If you really imagine the stakes of him, in his youth, having all these special powers and having your parents kind of be absent during that process on their own agendas, [being] equally as selfish, he’s lost in the world that he was raised in, and feels that he was kind of abandoned by the people that he’s closest with. He’s angry because of that, I think, and he has a huge grudge on his shoulder.”
Bloodline
Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, the most recent of the three canon descriptions of Snoke’s influence on Ben, and the version which was most shaped by Rian Johnson’s story in Episode VIII, provides even less information about the nature of Snoke’s manipulation of Ben Solo than the film or Foster’s novelization.
Bloodline gives us NO indication at all that Leia was concerned about Snoke’s influence on Ben during the timeline of the novel. During the course of the book, Leia remembers Ben fondly as a boy:
“…His expression reminded her a little bit of Ben’s when he was little, running in after an afternoon of roughhousing with his friends, hair mussed, absolutely filthy, and proud of himself.” (loc 1197)
As far as we know, Ben is training with Luke during the timeframe of the novel. Leia tries and fails to reach them via comm (but is not particularly worried by this failure to connect), and generally behaves as though she feels all is well with Ben and Luke; at least until the bombshell of the Vader family relationship is revealed, and she realizes that she should have told Ben the truth about his grandfather much earlier.
Examined together from earliest to most recent, these three canonical texts move sharply in a direction from more to LESS specificity about the exact nature of Snoke’s influence over Ben Solo and what Ben’s family knew about this influence in the time before Ben’s fall to the dark.

What to make of all this?
I think it possible that this conflicting canon is evidence of a change in some of the deep architecture of the story as the saga moves from JJ Abrams’ to Rian Johnson’s hands.
The darkest and most troubling version of Ben’s backstory; that described in Alan Dean Foster’s novelization, is also the earliest. Is it possible that the creators – or more specifically, Rian Johnson, is “walking back” this version of Snoke’s influence on Ben Solo? If so, why? If we eventually learn that a change was made, what are the implications of this change to the story?
In examining these examples of conflicting canon, it’s interesting to look at how JJ Abrams described Rian Johnson’s involvement in the creation of The Force Awakens. While each filmmaker brings their own vision to their part of the story, there is a clear articulation of the need to create a cohesive narrative across the three films of the new saga.
Bloodline already tells us that one of the early beliefs of the fandom, that Ben Solo fell to the dark when he was a teenager, was not the case. In other analyses I’ve written about The Force Awakens and Bloodline, I hypothesize that Ben’s turn to the dark as a young adult actually implies quite a bit of agency on his part.
Tweets from Pablo Hidalgo in April 2016 appear to support the notion that Ben Solo was acting under his own agency when he turned to the dark. The tenor of Hidalgo’s comments deny any suggestion that the audience consider Ben as Snoke’s victim; on the contrary, Ben/Kylo Ren is to blame for his bad choices and their repercussions. These comments suggest two possibilities: that the version of Ben’s backstory described in Alan Dean Foster’s novelization may no longer be a dominant underpinning of the character’s past; or that we, the audience, are not supposed to feel any sympathy for the character of Kylo Ren at this point in the story.
It’s also possible that Hidalgo’s commentary on the character of Kylo Ren may represent his own personal views or biases, but I think it far more likely that his contributions to our canon understanding of the characters and their histories are carefully crafted and designed to shape the audience’s perception of the story at a given point in time.
Really, I don’t know
All I can do here is to note what appear to be conflicts in existing canon sources and speculate about what it might mean. I don’t expect to learn any more about this until VIII arrives.
My view (and I recognize that it is very much a minority opinion at this point in time) is that we will eventually learn that Ben Solo allied himself with Snoke and the First Order largely under his own agency for reasons which will prove to have been motivated significantly by politics, ideology, and youthful anger; and less by a victim’s brainwashing, a deep commitment to the dark side, or a berserker’s bloodlust.
If the “terrain” of what we know about Snoke’s influence on Ben is in fact shifting away from the version of events as they were originally described to us in Alan Dean Foster’s novelization, then the shift itself may be a sign that Rian Johnson is moving the story in this direction.

I'm not sure I agree on her on the last part.Personally I hope they do keep the brainwashing from Snoke I think i would add an even more disturbing element to him falling to the DS otherwsise it seems to much like Anakin's fall(but I'll reserve my opinion of whether that will end up being true or not since we don't have the whole story though I don't think it will be the same)

by Force22 Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:18 am

Darth Dingbat wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
Saracene wrote:
CienaRee wrote:Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.
@CienaRee

I hope that Rey has an arc of her own too, I just find it hard to see what it could be, at the moment. Luke in the OT was easy - he wanted to become a Jedi like his father and that's what his arc was all about. In the ST, I can see the possibilities for Kylo (redemption), Finn (becoming more heroic and leader-like), Luke (rediscovering his Jedi master mojo), but Rey is a bit of a blank. One could say that maybe her arc is about mirroring Luke and becoming a Jedi warrior herself, but considering that in TFA she already mastered the Jedi mind trick in a blink of an eye and beat her main opponent in a lightsaber fight, there's not exactly much excitement left in that arc.
@Saracene

I agree.That's why the only arc that would somewhat makes sense to me is if she becomes darker.I mean like you said Rey did everything Luke learned and did in the course of the OT(learned she's FS and defeated the villian in the first movie of the trilogy) and his character progression made sense.With Rey what's left for her?If she doesn't fall to the DS or isn't tempted by it her only function would be being awesome which would be great for little girls but boring and not very memorable to others.
@CienaRee

I know I keep saying this, but the parentage mystery is the only thing that's entirely Rey's own in this story (so far). And I don't mean this in the sense of her being so boring that the parentage mystery is the only interesting thing about her: her stubborn loyalty to the family she's waiting for is her defining characteristic in most of TFA. There's something almost pathological about that desperate need to stay on Jakku, and even though she has nominally set it aside at the end of TFA, I'd honestly be surprised if that family doesn't come back to haunt her, one way or another.

In fact, I'd be very disappointed if it doesn't, because that stubborn loyalty is one of the most interesting things about Rey. If she was really capable of brushing the whole thing off as quickly as that - after about 15 years of single-minded waiting! - then the stubborn loyalty was little more than an empty plot contrivance to begin with.

I don't think the family issue is anywhere near resolved for Rey's character just because she found a new "family" and accepted that she can't stay on Jakku forever. Just because she has embraced a new future, that doesn't mean the past can't come back to haunt her.

@Darth Dingbat

I'm hoping for her parentage (and her time waiting for her family) comes up in the next movies adding conflict, and is somehow relevant to the plot, and for her development. It seems there's something unresolved about it.

If her background and her stubborn loyalty to the family she never knew doesn't bring conflict, it's lazy storytelling. I wouldn't be surprised at lazy storytelling, though, considering Finn was a victim of lazy storytelling.

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:32 am

Darth Dingbat wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
Saracene wrote:
CienaRee wrote:Honestly,if that's the case then they shouldn't have said that the main hero in this ST will be a female.Like I wouldn't mind Rey's arc going from being a scavenger to being in love but the TBT calling her the new Luke puts her in a position where she's expected to have a transformative act during the trilogy like Luke did.
@CienaRee

I hope that Rey has an arc of her own too, I just find it hard to see what it could be, at the moment. Luke in the OT was easy - he wanted to become a Jedi like his father and that's what his arc was all about. In the ST, I can see the possibilities for Kylo (redemption), Finn (becoming more heroic and leader-like), Luke (rediscovering his Jedi master mojo), but Rey is a bit of a blank. One could say that maybe her arc is about mirroring Luke and becoming a Jedi warrior herself, but considering that in TFA she already mastered the Jedi mind trick in a blink of an eye and beat her main opponent in a lightsaber fight, there's not exactly much excitement left in that arc.
@Saracene

I agree.That's why the only arc that would somewhat makes sense to me is if she becomes darker.I mean like you said Rey did everything Luke learned and did in the course of the OT(learned she's FS and defeated the villian in the first movie of the trilogy) and his character progression made sense.With Rey what's left for her?If she doesn't fall to the DS or isn't tempted by it her only function would be being awesome which would be great for little girls but boring and not very memorable to others.
@CienaRee

I know I keep saying this, but the parentage mystery is the only thing that's entirely Rey's own in this story (so far). And I don't mean this in the sense of her being so boring that the parentage mystery is the only interesting thing about her: her stubborn loyalty to the family she's waiting for is her defining characteristic in most of TFA. There's something almost pathological about that desperate need to stay on Jakku, and even though she has nominally set it aside at the end of TFA, I'd honestly be surprised if that family doesn't come back to haunt her, one way or another.

In fact, I'd be very disappointed if it doesn't, because that stubborn loyalty is one of the most interesting things about Rey. If she was really capable of brushing the whole thing off as quickly as that - after about 15 years of single-minded waiting! - then the stubborn loyalty was little more than an empty plot contrivance to begin with.

I don't think the family issue is anywhere near resolved for Rey's character just because she found a new "family" and accepted that she can't stay on Jakku forever. Just because she has embraced a new future, that doesn't mean the past can't come back to haunt her.

@Darth Dingbat

No,I agree.I'm not one of the people who would sweep Rey's parents under the rug because this is a Skywalker family saga(nothing against those who don't think it's that important I udnerstand where they're coming from).Even if they're dead or they are some awful people Rey deserves to have that resolved. She spend half of her life waiting for these people and I would really like them to adress Rey's feelings of abandonment.I mean she she's known Finn and Han for a couple of hours or a day at most yet she almsot had a breakdwon when Finn left her.Not to mention the fact that she began to see Han as a father and later almsot killed Kylo eventhough she knew very little about Him(Han).I know this is a movie but this is not a normal behaviour it screams of abandonment issues.
She's very much like Anakin in how she gets attached to people very quickly and is unable to let go of them.We saw ho it affected him and his relationship with Padme so really hope they give Rey a chance to work on her issues so she can have a healthy relationship not only with Kylo but with other characters as well.

by Armadeus Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:38 am

An interesting tidbit from Wookieepedia:

Following the discovery of his parenthood, Vader became emotionally conflicted. Vader's thoughts of his son, Luke, led to thoughts of his late wife, the woman he loved and destroyed—thoughts he could not allow. Memories would resurface whenever he felt Luke near him, and so, believed in erasing that part of his past. He had become afraid of his compassionate son; not because of his mastery of the Force or skill with a lightsaber, but because Luke could make him question the dark truths that had long ruled him.

by BastilaBey Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:44 am

@cienaree I just read oldadastra's post there and it's something that's been on my mind too. I reblogged with these comments:

This is something that concerns me, as I try to accept all of these seemingly disparate canonical hints of the nature of Kylo’s fall. You don’t lightly imply that a kid was preyed upon by a powerful being for years and then walk it back with a shrug and say it’s all that kid’s fault.

I might honestly consider that irresponsible, given that your audience will include victims who then cling to Ben Solo’s possible redemption as a sign of hope for their own recovery. Got to trust they know what they’re doing, I guess.

The novelization seems to have been more trouble than it's worth. Should we really just be taking what's in the movie as canon and discarding the rest? Bloodline seems to be 'more canon' than novelizations because they are based on older versions of the script. So Ben fell at 23, and Leia appears to have no present awareness of Snoke's effect on Ben, he's not even mentioned. But in the movie itself she says he 'seduced our son to the dark side'. That implies some level of manipulation, it's just impossible to gauge how much.

It seems like Ben's fall is going to be Rian's story to tell, not JJ's, which puts them in an awkward position with this first film. JJ is adamant that Ben was preyed upon, that he was a target, but is it possible that Rian is going to be more for giving young Ben Solo agency in his decision and that it was more one of political disillusionment?

by CienaRee Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:54 am

BastilaBey wrote:@cienaree I just read oldadastra's post there and it's something that's been on my mind too. I reblogged with these comments:

This is something that concerns me, as I try to accept all of these seemingly disparate canonical hints of the nature of Kylo’s fall. You don’t lightly imply that a kid was preyed upon by a powerful being for years and then walk it back with a shrug and say it’s all that kid’s fault.

I might honestly consider that irresponsible, given that your audience will include victims who then cling to Ben Solo’s possible redemption as a sign of hope for their own recovery. Got to trust they know what they’re doing, I guess.

The novelization seems to have been more trouble than it's worth. Should we really just be taking what's in the movie as canon and discarding the rest? Bloodline seems to be 'more canon' than novelizations because they are based on older versions of the script. So Ben fell at 23, and Leia appears to have no present awareness of Snoke's effect on Ben, he's not even mentioned. But in the movie itself she says he 'seduced our son to the dark side'. That implies some level of manipulation, it's just impossible to gauge how much.

It seems like Ben's fall is going to be Rian's story to tell, not JJ's, which puts them in an awkward position with this first film. JJ is adamant that Ben was preyed upon, that he was a target, but is it possible that Rian is going to be more for giving young Ben Solo agency in his decision and that it was more one of political disillusionment?

@BastilaBey

It's possible but then we have JJ and Adam's comments about Kylo feeling abandoned by his family and Snoke praying on him as a child.I don't think they would be saying that if JJ and Rian weren't in agreement about how Ben's fall happened.Adam also played Kylo as a fanatic who was brainwashed espeically in the scene with Han where he says ''Supreme Leader is wise'',very creepy.
What oldadatsra however forgot to mention is that line by Leai where she talks about how Han comforted her about Ben or something like that.Why would she need comforting if he was doing alright and wasn't brainwashed by Snoke at all?Why send him to Luke in the first place(and it was cannon he was send there because Leia wnated to stop Snoke from seducing him to the DS that was stated in the movie).
And while I don't mind giving Ben some agency it would be much easier for him to be redeemed in the audience's eyes if he wa sbeing brainwashed as a child.It would be different if it was a TV show but since it's a movie going the brainwashing way would be easier to redeem Kylo since for some people him killing his father made him unredeemable.

by Xylo Ren Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:28 am

Krafty wrote:@Sylvia Snow
Same! I feel like its just a matter of time before all these circumstantial pieces of evidence coalesce and make for the unbreakable outcome of Reylo.

I hope we get some more little bits like this in the future to hold us over until VIII.
Until then, I'm just going to keep looking at these beauties and know they are both metaphorically screwed.
You don't look at somebody in films like this and have it go nowhere.

ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 7 - Page 30 Latest?cb=20120825074014

by MindAndMagic Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:28 am

BastilaBey wrote:@cienaree I just read oldadastra's post there and it's something that's been on my mind too. I reblogged with these comments:

This is something that concerns me, as I try to accept all of these seemingly disparate canonical hints of the nature of Kylo’s fall. You don’t lightly imply that a kid was preyed upon by a powerful being for years and then walk it back with a shrug and say it’s all that kid’s fault.

I might honestly consider that irresponsible, given that your audience will include victims who then cling to Ben Solo’s possible redemption as a sign of hope for their own recovery. Got to trust they know what they’re doing, I guess.

The novelization seems to have been more trouble than it's worth. Should we really just be taking what's in the movie as canon and discarding the rest? Bloodline seems to be 'more canon' than novelizations because they are based on older versions of the script. So Ben fell at 23, and Leia appears to have no present awareness of Snoke's effect on Ben, he's not even mentioned. But in the movie itself she says he 'seduced our son to the dark side'. That implies some level of manipulation, it's just impossible to gauge how much.

It seems like Ben's fall is going to be Rian's story to tell, not JJ's, which puts them in an awkward position with this first film. JJ is adamant that Ben was preyed upon, that he was a target, but is it possible that Rian is going to be more for giving young Ben Solo agency in his decision and that it was more one of political disillusionment?

@BastilaBey
I personally doubt it's merely political, that doesn't have any emotional investment in it, sounds dry and honestly boring. There must be a personal element. It could be that he was under this negative influence hidden in plain sight for years and an event led to the turning point at 23. Can't imagine what that was, but there's so much we don't know yet so we'll just have to wait and see. He's clearly deeply conflicted, broken, bitter, confused, insecure, emotionally fragile. Something happened. One thing is for sure, there's a lot more to Ben's fall than meets the eye and it seems like they'll elaborate extensively on this in VIII (the boy staring at the stars, etc., one of my favourite tidbits, very telling). Those details will also likely provoke Rey's compassion... and love.

And we'll definitely see lots more of those intense staring competitions and emotional scenes. Once Snow White arrives on the island and Luke gets rid of the seven (six?) dwarfs, it's change of feelings time!

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