Kiss of F8TE

I wouldn't mind an almost-kiss or forehead bumping at all, but honestly, I don't want their relationship to still be ambiguous. I really want it to be confirmed in some way, because god, I do wonder if I'll be able to wait for another two years and fight off antis...

Ruke all the way.....he will kiss her....forehead

Seriously...if we don't see something between Rey and Kylo I dunno if I will watch ep. 8 every week...once a month then only... maybe

Irina de France wrote:I wouldn't mind an almost-kiss or forehead bumping at all, but honestly, I don't want their relationship to still be ambiguous. I really want it to be confirmed in some way, because god, I do wonder if I'll be able to wait for another two years and fight off antis...

@Irina de France

Yeah for real. I want some solid confirmation, even if it's a confession of feelings with no kiss. Leaving it all implied would get old really fast.

I have complete faith that Adam can make that first kiss hot enough to melt celluloid and raise the temperature in the theater!

Poor Daisy isn't going to know what hit her!

High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:I voted for FinnTran kiss, physical kiss, Force Dream kiss and almost kiss. I think FinnTran kiss will happen in the spur of the moment after the Space Horse chase. I definitely think there's a big chance of an almost kiss - I can actually see Kylo initiating a kiss only for Rey to pull away because she's feeling conflicted about him . The only way I can see a Reylo physical kiss is at the very end of the movie, especially if Kylo and Rey are forced to separate - maybe this time she's the one to initiate it. As for a Force Dream kiss - it would be cool, I don't know how they could pull it off but I would like it to go like the dream kiss in Dragon Age: Inquisition lol :

@AppleCrumble122

I would die and go to heaven with a kiss like that!

MeadowofAshes wrote:High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't think there'll be ambiguity. The whole point of TFA playing it subtle and everyone keeping quiet about Rey/Kylo is IMO about dropping an unexpected twist on the audience, which by its nature can't really be subtle.

I do hope they clear up the question of Rey's parents in Episode VIII; I just know that even if she and Kylo kiss there will still be a large part of the audience convinced that they just saw cousins kiss in a Disney movie.

Saracene wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't think there'll be ambiguity. The whole point of TFA playing it subtle and everyone keeping quiet about Rey/Kylo is IMO about dropping an unexpected twist on the audience, which by its nature can't really be subtle.

I do hope they clear up the question of Rey's parents in Episode VIII; I just know that even if she and Kylo kiss there will still be a large part of the audience convinced that they just saw cousins kiss in a Disney movie.

@Saracene I agree and considering that whole Luke/Leia mess, just having them kiss won't be enough to convince them. Even though TFA itself debunks Luke from having children with Leia's line to Han "Luke is a Jedi, you're his father." I think it needs to be said out straight. This is speculation, but I can see three possible ways:

1) Luke flat out says he followed the old Jedi code which forbade marriage, romantic relations and children.
2) If Luke explains the Jedi code to Rey about this, she could get angry about being forced to follow the old ways because she's just found a makeshift family and say "You left your family, you've never even had children etc, you don't know what it's like to be alone."
3) Leia can say "Luke never had children. He doesn't understand." in regards to her feelings about Kylo Ren.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Saracene wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't think there'll be ambiguity. The whole point of TFA playing it subtle and everyone keeping quiet about Rey/Kylo is IMO about dropping an unexpected twist on the audience, which by its nature can't really be subtle.

I do hope they clear up the question of Rey's parents in Episode VIII; I just know that even if she and Kylo kiss there will still be a large part of the audience convinced that they just saw cousins kiss in a Disney movie.

@Saracene I agree and considering that whole Luke/Leia mess, just having them kiss won't be enough to convince them. Even though TFA itself debunks Luke from having children with Leia's line to Han "Luke is a Jedi, you're his father." I think it needs to be said out straight. This is speculation, but I can see three possible ways:

1) Luke flat out says he followed the old Jedi code which forbade marriage, romantic relations and children.
2) If Luke explains the Jedi code to Rey about this, she could get angry about being forced to follow the old ways because she's just found a makeshift family and say "You left your family, you've never even had children etc, you don't know what it's like to be alone."
3) Leia can say "Luke never had children. He doesn't understand." in regards to her feelings about Kylo Ren.

@AppleCrumble122

As someone on this forum (I forget who, probably multiple, LOL) said, even if Rey and Luke did the nasty there's a select crowd who would still believe Luke is Rey's father. Nothing to do about this. The way Pablo derides those who didn't get that Rey isn't Luke's from Maz's speech to Rey, I don't think they're worried about appealing to that crowd. For us and the GA a defining Kylo/Rey moment (kiss, almost kiss, "I have feelings", etc.) will be enough. I hope that this trilogy will continue in its current trend of not dummying down what it presents for the sake of those who've already made up their minds and/or refuse to believe what they see.

My mother enjoys SW (and all children's fantasy films, like Harry Potter) but she can be considered GA. She's asked multiple times if I think Rey is Luke's because the red herring has totally thrown her off the mark, but she also admits that Kylo has a "not very cousin like" interest in Rey. Once there's an open display of feelings between those two, I guarantee she'll say "Yeah, she's not Luke's." GA isn't dumb, it's just gullible because there's no highly vested interest in the direction SW goes (unlike us fanboys and girls ) so they accept the red herrings at face value. They're logical enough that once the actual story plays out, they'll accept it for what it is. It's the hardcore Reywalkers who aren't on board, and I doubt Disney/LFL care about appealing to such a small and patently small-minded crowd.

@MeadowofAshes Hmm... I don't know about the GA. The Luke/Leia thing is pretty infamous, even among them. I once asked a GA friend what she thought about a Kylo/Rey romance and she said she'd be fine with it, even though she thinks they're cousins. When I pointed this out she said "It's Star Wars. It does that" and she was being serious. Maybe I just don't have that much faith in them as you do. I agree about the hardcore Reywalkers though, Disney and LF has no interest in appeasing them. If they're not convinced now with all the debunkings, they probably won't be when they see the movie.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@MeadowofAshes Hmm... I don't know about the GA. The Luke/Leia thing is pretty infamous, even among them. I once asked a GA friend what she thought about a Kylo/Rey romance and she said she'd be fine with it, even though she thinks they're cousins. When I pointed this out she said "It's Star Wars. It does that" and she was being serious. Maybe I just don't have that much faith in them as you do. I agree about the hardcore Reywalkers though, Disney and LF has no interest in appeasing them. If they're not convinced now with all the debunkings, they probably won't be when they see the movie.

@AppleCrumble122
Really???

Well... you know... In Gone With the Wind Ashley and Melanie were married cousins so... I don't know. You know, I can't pass up an "Awkward Skywalker Family Reunion" joke, but I guess my GA experience really just extends to my family, who seem to understand that Luke and Leia as siblings was not initially planned (they don't have the terminology to call it retconning but we as supernerds know this). Now I feel like I need to "poll a friend" and see what happens...

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@MeadowofAshes Hmm... I don't know about the GA. The Luke/Leia thing is pretty infamous, even among them. I once asked a GA friend what she thought about a Kylo/Rey romance and she said she'd be fine with it, even though she thinks they're cousins. When I pointed this out she said "It's Star Wars. It does that" and she was being serious. Maybe I just don't have that much faith in them as you do. I agree about the hardcore Reywalkers though, Disney and LF has no interest in appeasing them. If they're not convinced now with all the debunkings, they probably won't be when they see the movie.  

@AppleCrumble122

haha LOL remember the fuss when Pablo debunked Snoke is Plagueis??? people accused JJ and Larry of 'ruining' Star Wars, even though its canon that Plagueis died at the hands of Darth Sidious....Yeah, LF and Disney probably have no interest in appeasing to that kind of crowd. They are such a tiny minority. As for the Luke Leia thing..that was a mistake that neither George nor LF are proud of. They admitted it was a mistake...and by then Luke and Leia weren't meant to be brother and sister...in the case of this trilogy, everything has been thought out and planned ahead.

Mana wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@MeadowofAshes Hmm... I don't know about the GA. The Luke/Leia thing is pretty infamous, even among them. I once asked a GA friend what she thought about a Kylo/Rey romance and she said she'd be fine with it, even though she thinks they're cousins. When I pointed this out she said "It's Star Wars. It does that" and she was being serious. Maybe I just don't have that much faith in them as you do. I agree about the hardcore Reywalkers though, Disney and LF has no interest in appeasing them. If they're not convinced now with all the debunkings, they probably won't be when they see the movie.  

@AppleCrumble122

haha LOL remember the fuss when Pablo debunked Snoke is Plagueis??? people accused JJ and Larry of 'ruining' Star Wars, even though its canon that Plagueis died at the hands of Darth Sidious....Yeah, LF and Disney probably have no interest in appeasing to that kind of crowd. They are such a tiny minority. As for the Luke Leia thing..that was a mistake that neither George nor LF are proud of. They admitted it was a mistake...and by then Luke and Leia weren't meant to be brother and sister...in the case of this trilogy, everything has been thought out and planned ahead.

@Mana

They didn't exactly help themselves by having Leia say, "I know. Somehow I've always known."

OMG they could have had her say ANYTHING BUT THIS and come out on top. "I sensed you were familiar", "It seemed we'd met before". Oh for Force's sake, anything to indicate they shared womb space except, "Yeah, I knew you were my brother but I kissed you anyways." What the f*** were you thinking, George???

@MeadowofAshes Oh yes. But the best thing about it? She knows Luke/Leia wasn't planned. Hahaha! Let us know your results please.

@Mana Oh yeah! Some people still believe that theory. Mind you, I think it was an OK theory personally, Certainly better than Reywalker and the fuss that that debunking was caused was on a whole other scale! But yep, Disney's not gonna care for them. They'll make billions off the GA alone, never mind the countless SW fans who will go and see them regardless.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@"MeadowsofAshes" Oh yes. But the best thing about it? She knows Luke/Leia wasn't planned. Hahaha! Let us know your results please.

@Mana Oh yeah! Some people still believe that theory. Mind you, I think it was an OK theory personally, Certainly better than Reywalker and the fuss that that debunking was caused was on a whole other scale! But yep, Disney's not gonna care for them. They'll make billions off the GA alone, never mind the countless SW fans who will go and see them regardless.

@AppleCrumble122

The thing is...JJ already stated that Snoke was a completely new character..and that he was also once meant to be a woman....I'm kinda glad they changed Snoke to a man..I mean, can you imagine Leia saying "Snoke seduced our son..." if he had been a woman??? I can't...

MeadowofAshes wrote:

Mana wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@MeadowofAshes Hmm... I don't know about the GA. The Luke/Leia thing is pretty infamous, even among them. I once asked a GA friend what she thought about a Kylo/Rey romance and she said she'd be fine with it, even though she thinks they're cousins. When I pointed this out she said "It's Star Wars. It does that" and she was being serious. Maybe I just don't have that much faith in them as you do. I agree about the hardcore Reywalkers though, Disney and LF has no interest in appeasing them. If they're not convinced now with all the debunkings, they probably won't be when they see the movie.  

@AppleCrumble122

haha LOL remember the fuss when Pablo debunked Snoke is Plagueis??? people accused JJ and Larry of 'ruining' Star Wars, even though its canon that Plagueis died at the hands of Darth Sidious....Yeah, LF and Disney probably have no interest in appeasing to that kind of crowd. They are such a tiny minority. As for the Luke Leia thing..that was a mistake that neither George nor LF are proud of. They admitted it was a mistake...and by then Luke and Leia weren't meant to be brother and sister...in the case of this trilogy, everything has been thought out and planned ahead.

@Mana

They didn't exactly help themselves by having Leia say, "I know. Somehow I've always known."

OMG they could have had her say ANYTHING BUT THIS and come out on top. "I sensed you were familiar", "It seemed we'd met before". Oh for Force's sake, anything to indicate they shared womb space except, "Yeah, I knew you were my brother but I kissed you anyways." What the f*** were you thinking, George???

@MeadowofAshes

Hahahaha! That was the worst part! Why George. Just why. Also the poor actors! They're clearly embarrassed by the whole thing! Especially Mark! I also love the fact that he had Leia remember her real mother, then have Padme die seconds after Leia was born. I personally believe that he also foreshadowed them being born on Dagobah with Luke's line about "There's something familiar about this place." then had Polis Massa be where they were born.

@Mana Yeah I didn't know Snoke was supposed to be an original character until after the Plagueis theory was debunked . And as much as I think the big bad being a woman who be cool, yeah that would be extremely creepy.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@MeadowofAshes Oh yes. But the best thing about it? She knows Luke/Leia wasn't planned. Hahaha! Let us know your results please.

@Mana Oh yeah! Some people still believe that theory. Mind you, I think it was an OK theory personally, Certainly better than Reywalker and the fuss that that debunking was caused was on a whole other scale! But yep, Disney's not gonna care for them. They'll make billions off the GA alone, never mind the countless SW fans who will go and see them regardless.

@AppleCrumble122

You know what, I'm wrong. This took place several months ago so it hasn't been on my mind, but my best friend of 20 years (among our circle of 5th grade friends who were obsessed with SW when the Special Editions came out, my nickname was Han Solo and hers was Chewbacca) didn't initially think Kylo/Rey was a thing. This was months ago, mind you. She's since stopped talking to me about the subject. I'll get to why. Honestly, she can also be considered GA although she gets into HP, GoT, etc. She reads and watches a lot of fantasy but doesn't typically get into forum length discussions. She thought Rey was a Skywalker AND Kenobi. I mentioned Kylo/Rey scenes read weird and I thought they were headed for romance. We debated. I said it would be weird to put specific imagery (Hades and Persephone, bridal carry across threshold) into scenes featuring cousins. Her response: "I don't really like spoilers going into movies." We haven't discussed it since. In other words, she knows I'm right and I've spoiled the next movie for her. BTW, she wasn't being facetious. And She's not an Anti or Reywalker at all. She really doesn't like to have things spoiled, so debate was fine when we were both just initially reacting to the movie but once it crossed into "Holy Sith, she's onto something" that was it for her. End of discussion.

Mana wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@"MeadowsofAshes" Oh yes. But the best thing about it? She knows Luke/Leia wasn't planned. Hahaha! Let us know your results please.

@Mana Oh yeah! Some people still believe that theory. Mind you, I think it was an OK theory personally, Certainly better than Reywalker and the fuss that that debunking was caused was on a whole other scale! But yep, Disney's not gonna care for them. They'll make billions off the GA alone, never mind the countless SW fans who will go and see them regardless.

@AppleCrumble122

The thing is...JJ already stated that Snoke was a completely new character..and that he was also once meant to be a woman....I'm kinda glad they changed Snoke to a man..I mean, can you imagine Leia saying "Snoke seduced our son..." if he had been a woman??? I can't...

@Mana

On the other hand... I've also considered the heroine's journey angle and how it's typically a "wicked stepmother" who takes hold of the young woman. I think they decided to go with male Snoke not only to quash any sexual suppositions (but let's be honest, Snoke is still coded as a child predator. As a parent, he gives me the serious skeevs ) but because he's also a father substitute or Wicked Stepfather to Ben Solo's True Father.

^^ exactly.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

Mana wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@"MeadowsofAshes" Oh yes. But the best thing about it? She knows Luke/Leia wasn't planned. Hahaha! Let us know your results please.

@Mana Oh yeah! Some people still believe that theory. Mind you, I think it was an OK theory personally, Certainly better than Reywalker and the fuss that that debunking was caused was on a whole other scale! But yep, Disney's not gonna care for them. They'll make billions off the GA alone, never mind the countless SW fans who will go and see them regardless.

@AppleCrumble122

The thing is...JJ already stated that Snoke was a completely new character..and that he was also once meant to be a woman....I'm kinda glad they changed Snoke to a man..I mean, can you imagine Leia saying "Snoke seduced our son..." if he had been a woman??? I can't...

@Mana

On the other hand... I've also considered the heroine's journey angle and how it's typically a "wicked stepmother" who takes hold of the young woman. I think they decided to go with male Snoke not only to quash any sexual suppositions (but let's be honest, Snoke is still coded as a child predator. As a parent, he gives me the serious skeevs ) but because he's also a father substitute or Wicked Stepfather to Ben Solo's True Father.

@MeadowofAshes

If Snoke had been a woman, I think things would have been done a bit differently... I think we would have had a vibe similar to this:

@Irina de France

I remember the first time watching Narnia, the Snow Queem make me feel so uncomfortable and scared. I was actually angry at how naïve Edmund was, for trusting her. It would be much more disturbing if Snoke was a woman

I had been hoping for something demonstrative between them to occur onscreen for episode VIII, but now I am conflicted- I just discovered that my 8 year niece has become a Daisy Ridley fanatic. I guess that it was a dose of reality (cold shower? ) to remember that this is a family film heavily marketed towards children.  What a tightrope the filmmakers must balance!

Then again, film has a long tradition of using ambiguity to "have it both ways." Scenes involving sexuality are designed so that audiences can interpret them in whichever way they choose.  I recently read an essay about a Hollywood film from the late 1920s called The Wind.  Apparently, at the time, newspaper reviewers interpreted one of the final scenes in several different ways.  Some were sure it indicated a rape, some thought it implied a consensual sex scenario, some thought nothing happened, and some figured that it was all just a dream.

So, now I am thinking that maybe I'd just like to see more metaphorical connections in the style of The Force Awakens.  After all, the scenes in TFA seemed more erotic than the typical flirting scene in a mainstream film, and it's all the more fun that the dynamic seems to have flown over the heads of so many viewers.

LadyHa wrote:I had been hoping for something demonstrative between them to occur onscreen for episode VIII, but now I am conflicted- I just discovered that my 8 year niece has become a Daisy Ridley fanatic. I guess that it was a dose of reality (cold shower? ) to remember that this is a family film heavily marketed towards children.  What a tightrope the filmmakers must balance!

Then again, film has a long tradition of using ambiguity to "have it both ways." Scenes involving sexuality are designed so that audiences can interpret them in whichever way they choose.  I recently read an essay about a Hollywood film from the late 1920s called The Wind.  Apparently, at the time, newspaper reviewers interpreted one of the final scenes in several different ways.  Some were sure it indicated a rape, some thought it implied a consensual sex scenario, some thought nothing happened, and some figured that it was all just a dream.

So, now I am thinking that maybe I'd just like to see more metaphorical connections in the style of The Force Awakens.  After all, the scenes in TFA seemed more erotic than the typical flirting scene in a mainstream film, and it's all the more fun that the dynamic seems to have flown over the heads of so many viewers.

@LadyHa

You don't mess with Lillian Gish (one of my favorite Golden Age ladies)


You're right about the more subtle but more erotic vibe couched in a family friendly narrative. The New Yorker just had a great article this spring about the Hayes Code opening up roles for women and making people more creative in implying (versus pre-code era movies outright showing) sexuality. Especially in the great pairing of Myrna Loy (another one of my favorites, Hell she is my favorite) and William Powell as Nick and Nora Charles

Sex and Sexier - What the Hayes Code did for women

If sexual frankness disappeared, tawdriness went with it, and the old fables of domination were replaced by a new creation: the couple, two people matched in beauty and talent who enjoy each other’s company more than anything else in the world. There was actually a perfect transitional movie, “The Thin Man,” from the Dashiell Hammett novel, shot very quickly, in early 1934, and released just before the Code went into effect. Nick and Nora Charles (William Powell and Myrna Loy), a wealthy couple, drink their way through the day and solve a complicated murder case when they feel like it. Powell, with his clipped mustache, his deep voice, his invariable suit, tie, and hat, and his perfect indifference to everything but Myrna Loy, was a generation’s ideal of American suavity. Loy, tall and elegant, had music in her voice, a mocking inquisitiveness that became an informal, American-style version of irony. The film’s screenwriters, Albert Hackett and Frances Goodrich, a married couple, elaborated on Hammett’s dialogue, which itself was a worked-up version of the drink-fuelled back-and-forth of the writer and Lillian Hellman, his longtime girlfriend. When Nick and Nora are with other people, they speak to each other in telegraphic gestures and put-ons. Sex has never been more beautifully displaced.

For women, the screenwriting strategies created out of the Code were a net gain. Unlike the pre-Code goddesses, vamps, and bad girls, who crooned or spoke in snarls and wisecracks, the post-Code women could talk.

You don't mess with Lillian Gish (one of my favorite Golden Age ladies)


You're right about the more subtle but more erotic vibe couched in a family friendly narrative. The New Yorker just had a great article this spring about the Hayes Code opening up roles for women and making people more creative in implying (versus pre-code era movies outright showing) sexuality. Especially in the great pairing of Myrna Loy (another one of my favorites, Hell she is my favorite) and William Powell as Nick and Nora Charles

Sex and Sexier - What the Hayes Code did for women

If sexual frankness disappeared, tawdriness went with it, and the old fables of domination were replaced by a new creation: the couple, two people matched in beauty and talent who enjoy each other’s company more than anything else in the world. There was actually a perfect transitional movie, “The Thin Man,” from the Dashiell Hammett novel, shot very quickly, in early 1934, and released just before the Code went into effect. Nick and Nora Charles (William Powell and Myrna Loy), a wealthy couple, drink their way through the day and solve a complicated murder case when they feel like it. Powell, with his clipped mustache, his deep voice, his invariable suit, tie, and hat, and his perfect indifference to everything but Myrna Loy, was a generation’s ideal of American suavity. Loy, tall and elegant, had music in her voice, a mocking inquisitiveness that became an informal, American-style version of irony. The film’s screenwriters, Albert Hackett and Frances Goodrich, a married couple, elaborated on Hammett’s dialogue, which itself was a worked-up version of the drink-fuelled back-and-forth of the writer and Lillian Hellman, his longtime girlfriend. When Nick and Nora are with other people, they speak to each other in telegraphic gestures and put-ons. Sex has never been more beautifully displaced.

For women, the screenwriting strategies created out of the Code were a net gain. Unlike the pre-Code goddesses, vamps, and bad girls, who crooned or spoke in snarls and wisecracks, the post-Code women could talk.

@snufkin

That's one of my favorite Lilian Gish photos! The Wind is a pretty wild film.  And thanks for the new Yorker link.  I have been reading about how the Hayes Code in particular affected films, but hadn't come across that article yet.  I've had The Thin Man in my queue for a few weeks now- I think it's time to watch.  That bolded excerpt is a lovely description.

Also, this forum rocks.

LadyHa wrote:


@snufkin

That's one of my favorite Lilian Gish photos! The Wind is a pretty wild film.  And thanks for the new Yorker link.  I have been reading about how the Hayes Code in particular affected films, but hadn't come across that article yet.  I've had The Thin Man in my queue for a few weeks now- I think it's time to watch.  That bolded excerpt is a lovely description.

Also, this forum rocks.

@LadyHa

Have you ever read the Nitrate Diva (Blog, also on twitter @NitrateDiva). Lotsa great stuff about the women of the Silent and pre-post Hayes Code era, like Gish and another bad***, Mary Pickford (I have her bio, just haven't read it yet).

Nora Charles: You got types?
Nick Charles: Only you, darling. Lanky brunettes with wicked jaws.


I think the common thread of the people who are on here is that we're all very enthusiastic nerds and like to talk about things that are both about this specific movie, but also about related books/movies/history/etc. It's like a really great college seminar so far with the topics people have brought up and nerded out about. Also a nice bit of group therapy because the whole dynamic was so sneaky and subtle (and most places on the Internet seem to mansplain about how "you're making that up because you like Twilight"), that you start to wonder if you saw what you know that you saw.