ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 10

@Mana

When I first watched it, the scene in which he spinning the saber with the Jedi's head near by reminds me of Mortal Kombat. The have a similar fatalities. I was actually glad that the Jedi was not killed in that way. It would be a mess

Something I thought of while on commute just now that makes sense of some things. I don't know if this has been brought up but here goes:

JJ has explicitly said that with Kylo Ren, we will witness the evolution/development of a villain as the story progresses.

Now a lot of people especially the GA have taken that to mean that Kylo Ren will become the best and the worst villain SW has ever seen. People expect him in VIII and IX to go beyond Vader and Emp's evil, and become more brutal that Maul.
People want him irredeemable and die by Rey's hand.

But what if this 'development/evolution' JJ talks about doesn't happen in the future but in the past?

What if he meant that we will find out more about Ben and how he became Kylo Ren? Technically he is already a villain in TFA despite being underdeveloped to the typical standard. He has been shown to be cruel and ruthless already and he has killed a hero. 100 evil points there.

I'm hoping this is what JJ and KK really mean because by all of the analyses done, Kylo does have nowhere else to go but up.

Also we can simply go by semantics here and read JJ's comment in a progressive way, that he does evolve as a villain in the future, but in the anti-hero tragectory as most expect. He does evolve, and technically he is still a villain.

GA and antis would counter that JJ said no such thing about flashbacks, but ofc he wouldn't spoil that for RJ. He only gave us the best hint we could go forward with and that is a glimpse into Ben's transformation into Ren.

I'm really expecting VIII to be mostly about Ben Solo and how Rey will be the catalyst to his return. If I were to bet a title, it might go along the lines of 'The Fallen Jedi' or something to that extent...(lol really not creative in thinking of titles)

@Rei of Sunshine I think he was talking about TFA only, not ST.

Sylvia Snow wrote:Have anyone post this yet?

@Sylvia Snow

WOAH!!!

I don't know much about lightsaber forms but damn do I recognize Trakata when I see it!

It was mostly Soresu and a bit of Ataru there, but I spazzed when the guardian used Trakata at 2:53

Really a fatalistic style. Then Kylo used it too to land that blow on the guardian with the side vents. Did not expect that he could shut off the main blade, that was a pretty awesome suprise!

vaderito wrote:@Rei of Sunshine I think he was talking about TFA only, not ST.

@vaderito

Yeah I understand. as he is just limited to his domain which was TFA. But he is part of the bigger story group as we all know and he does have to tell us more about the character without spoiling anything. He's still staying as producer right?

For me, if TFA was Kylo's development, it didn't really show much in villainous development. It was more of an introduction to this big bad wolf who is also the heroes's estranged son. It's like a click bait for the audience to want more and follow the ST. The development there was his sudden attraction to Rey and how he went from an intimidating spectre, to an almost desperate, half-dead suitor.

We will be getting more of that 'development/evolution' and I'm hoping his fall to the Dark side will be shown via flashbacks or some sort, and will be paralleled to his descent into a Grey area in the present time he spends with Rey and Luke but who cares about Luke

Deleted.

And most importantly, he'll be spending time with Rey and Luke, away from Snoke's poison.

ViviF wrote:@Rei of Sunshine



We'll see Kylo change. Kylo isn't locked in or petrified.

@ViviF

Oh, I love this.

Now why can't antis just listen to TPTB just once without their bias filters?

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:In terms of what the GA thinks, not that it's produced any writers of his caliber, but Roger Ebert's site (still run by his widow) had one of its film critics write about the lightsaber duels in both the OT and PT as a run-up to TFA. Needless to say, he sees it from the OT perspective and misses the reasons why Rey was able to succeed. Oh and the comments are the standard comments on the Internet about Star Wars.

THE DANCE OF THE LIGHTSABERS: DUELS IN THE ORIGINAL "STAR WARS" TRILOGY VS. THE PREQUELS

In the original trilogy, the most important element to each lightsaber battle is how it continues character development and reinforces theme. Each duel almost feels like a duet in a musical, where two characters’ pent-up emotion translates into song when words fail them. Here, the characters must instead communicate through combat. There is a very specific connective tissue that can be drawn between all three lightsaber duels from “A New Hope” through “Return of the Jedi,” and each battle is the culmination of a part of a character’s journey, in this case, Luke’s journey to becoming a Jedi.

...

It’s a mixture of old and new. There are even emotional stakes at play. Rey and Finn have just witnessed Kylo Ren killing Han Solo. Finn, using a lightsaber for only the second time in his life, is easily dispatched by the trained, former-Jedi apprentice. Rey is similarly beaten back, though at this point we know she is both a capable fighter and able to use the force in tangible ways. Then, a key moment happens. Pushed against a precipice and being told to join the dark side by Ren, Rey closes her eyes and appeals to the force. What happens next is a concerning way of understanding, to paraphrase Han Solo in the same movie, “how the Force works." Rey’s appeal to the Force manifests itself in an ability to out-fight Ren. Her technique doesn’t change all that much, she still hammers away like Luke does when he was a novice, but all of a sudden, her blows start landing.

It’s the kind of violence that Luke was only able to access when he was filled with fear or anger. Rey isn’t a Jedi, so learning that non-violence is their greatest tenet isn’t something she would know. But it is something the filmmakers should understand. By representing Rey as someone who has an easy ability to access the force, using skills that took Luke years and years to hone, and then being able to outfight someone based on that skill, they brush past all of the thematic development that was put into the original trilogy about what it means to be a Jedi.

@snufkin

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin It's amazing how so many people, critics and fans alike, jump to the conclusion that the creators must have made a mistake. Oops, they let Rey beat the villain by accident! Oops, Kylo removed his mask and suddenly he looks like a puppy! Oops, he offered to teach her when really he should have said "join me or die!"

@BastilaBey

Not only did they miss all of that, the writer also incorrectly inferred that Kylo was asking her to "join the dark side" with him (see bolded).

@ISeeAnIsland

I alredy saw similar interpretation of this even in the official source. I think it was visual dictionnary or kids novelization. I am not sure.
And I must admit I do not get it.
Not only that Kylo did not mention the dark side at all, he offers to be only her teacher.
No mention of ruling, power of the dark side and similar terms.

At least, it is yet another thing I find completely ambiguous in TFA.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:In terms of what the GA thinks, not that it's produced any writers of his caliber, but Roger Ebert's site (still run by his widow) had one of its film critics write about the lightsaber duels in both the OT and PT as a run-up to TFA. Needless to say, he sees it from the OT perspective and misses the reasons why Rey was able to succeed. Oh and the comments are the standard comments on the Internet about Star Wars.

THE DANCE OF THE LIGHTSABERS: DUELS IN THE ORIGINAL "STAR WARS" TRILOGY VS. THE PREQUELS

In the original trilogy, the most important element to each lightsaber battle is how it continues character development and reinforces theme. Each duel almost feels like a duet in a musical, where two characters’ pent-up emotion translates into song when words fail them. Here, the characters must instead communicate through combat. There is a very specific connective tissue that can be drawn between all three lightsaber duels from “A New Hope” through “Return of the Jedi,” and each battle is the culmination of a part of a character’s journey, in this case, Luke’s journey to becoming a Jedi.

...

It’s a mixture of old and new. There are even emotional stakes at play. Rey and Finn have just witnessed Kylo Ren killing Han Solo. Finn, using a lightsaber for only the second time in his life, is easily dispatched by the trained, former-Jedi apprentice. Rey is similarly beaten back, though at this point we know she is both a capable fighter and able to use the force in tangible ways. Then, a key moment happens. Pushed against a precipice and being told to join the dark side by Ren, Rey closes her eyes and appeals to the force. What happens next is a concerning way of understanding, to paraphrase Han Solo in the same movie, “how the Force works." Rey’s appeal to the Force manifests itself in an ability to out-fight Ren. Her technique doesn’t change all that much, she still hammers away like Luke does when he was a novice, but all of a sudden, her blows start landing.

It’s the kind of violence that Luke was only able to access when he was filled with fear or anger. Rey isn’t a Jedi, so learning that non-violence is their greatest tenet isn’t something she would know. But it is something the filmmakers should understand. By representing Rey as someone who has an easy ability to access the force, using skills that took Luke years and years to hone, and then being able to outfight someone based on that skill, they brush past all of the thematic development that was put into the original trilogy about what it means to be a Jedi.

@snufkin

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin It's amazing how so many people, critics and fans alike, jump to the conclusion that the creators must have made a mistake. Oops, they let Rey beat the villain by accident! Oops, Kylo removed his mask and suddenly he looks like a puppy! Oops, he offered to teach her when really he should have said "join me or die!"

@BastilaBey

Not only did they miss all of that, the writer also incorrectly inferred that Kylo was asking her to "join the dark side" with him (see bolded).

@ISeeAnIsland

I alredy saw similar interpretation of this even in the official source. I think it was visual dictionnary or kids novelization. I am not sure.
And I must admit I do not get it.
Not only that Kylo did not mention the dark side at all, he offers to be only her teacher.
No mention of ruling, power of the dark side and similar terms.

At least, it is yet another thing I find completely ambiguous in TFA.

@Darth_Awakened

I suppose it might be because of Kylo's direct association to the Dark Side, no matter how neutral his intentions are, it will be interpreted that way. It's an unfortunate bias that exists in real life everyday.

It's the same with the issue of Finn killing fellow stormtroopers and Kylo ordering Tuanul wiped out. Finn's presented as a hero, so that's okay because he's killing the badguy's grunts. Kylo is garbed in black head to toe and killed what might've been a Resistance allied town. Automatic evil bad dude. But if you stripped away the Dark Side vs Light Side context, they're basically just both the same thing. Killing people because they're at war.

It's easily comparable to a junkie selling crack so he could feed his family. In my country right now we have a new president, and is very keen on getting rid of the illegal drug industry. We have at least 10 people killed everyday for just being allegedly drug users/pushers. Nevermind that those people where the bottom of the food chain, and despite their best efforts only sustained their families by selling these stuff.

The intention is never the first thing considered. It's always the superficial reasons. Drug junkie = bad; hence must be killed.

Kylo Ren = Dark Sider + Vader fanboy + killed Han + looks weird; hence must be killed

not
Kylo Ren = Ben Solo + mysterious traumatic event + bad decisions x Snoke + a little bit of Light

Rei of Sunshine wrote:It's the same with the issue of Finn killing fellow stormtroopers and Kylo ordering Tuanul wiped out. Finn's presented as a hero, so that's okay because he's killing the badguy's grunts. Kylo is garbed in black head to toe and killed what might've been a Resistance allied town. Automatic evil bad dude. But if you stripped away the Dark Side vs Light Side context, they're basically just both the same thing. Killing people because they're at war.

@Rei of Sunshine

Well not quite IMO. Kylo/First Order are always shown as aggressors, and The Resistance/Finn kill in response to aggression. I agree that Finn should have shown more conflict about killing the other stormtroopers, but they did initiate the attack on Maz's Castle and would have killed Finn without a blink for being a traitor to the cause. We also never see the good guys give an order to execute the surrendered stormtroopers.

Has anyone read The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter? I did at uni but have just started it again and found this really great article about how she wrote a feminist version of BatB

http://the-artifice.com/angela-carter-beauty-and-the-beast-feminist-romance/

It really helped me with understanding one of the main critiques of 'reylo' because it references 50 shades and Twilight (ugh), which most of you probably know are the two stories it's most unfavorably compared to. These are considered anti-feminist because the woman is depicted as submissive and perhaps struggling with a 'stockholm syndrome', whereas there are other versions which are very empowering for the heroine. It's all in the way the writers choose to use these archetypes to construct a dynamic.

Anyway, reylo surely has to be in the feminist category because hello, Rey is shown overpowering him twice - just in this first movie. I completely trust Kathleen Kennedy when it comes to overseeing an empowering narrative for both Rey and the female audience.

BastilaBey wrote:Has anyone read The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter? I did at uni but have just started it again and found this really great article about how she wrote a feminist version of BatB

http://the-artifice.com/angela-carter-beauty-and-the-beast-feminist-romance/

It really helped me with understanding one of the main critiques of 'reylo' because it references 50 shades and Twilight (ugh), which most of you probably know are the two stories it's most unfavorably compared to. These are considered anti-feminist because the woman is depicted as submissive and perhaps struggling with a 'stockholm syndrome', whereas there are other versions which are very empowering for the heroine. It's all in the way the writers choose to use these archetypes to construct a dynamic.

Anyway, reylo surely has to be in the feminist category because hello, Rey is shown overpowering him twice - just in this first movie. I completely trust Kathleen Kennedy when it comes to overseeing an empowering narrative for both Rey and the female audience.

@BastilaBey

I know that many antis who wave 50 Shades/Twilight flags at Reylo also want Finn to be the real hero and Rey just a misdirection and his LI. In their fanfictional world, Finn should be the Jedi while Rey should be just a librarian type of a Jedi, someone who'll study Jedi books to help Finn lead the army. It's quite appalling how many of them want Rey to be a cover up for real Jedi God Finn. Even though the whole point is that ST has a heroine, not a hero. They are hoping that Finn misdirection in TFA was not a misdirection but that Rey reveal as the heroine is misdirection. Misdirection of misdirection. Cause he would be emasculated if he wasn't. And yet they claim they are feminists.

BastilaBey wrote:Has anyone read The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter? I did at uni but have just started it again and found this really great article about how she wrote a feminist version of BatB

http://the-artifice.com/angela-carter-beauty-and-the-beast-feminist-romance/

It really helped me with understanding one of the main critiques of 'reylo' because it references 50 shades and Twilight (ugh), which most of you probably know are the two stories it's most unfavorably compared to. These are considered anti-feminist because the woman is depicted as submissive and perhaps struggling with a 'stockholm syndrome', whereas there are other versions which are very empowering for the heroine. It's all in the way the writers choose to use these archetypes to construct a dynamic.

Anyway, reylo surely has to be in the feminist category because hello, Rey is shown overpowering him twice - just in this first movie. I completely trust Kathleen Kennedy when it comes to overseeing an empowering narrative for both Rey and the female audience.

@BastilaBey

Agreed with the bolded, KK and the 5/8th female story group have said that they're trying to present a different type of story. It's not just representation in the casting and lead roles, but in the type of stories (female perspective) presented. IDK, is it the fact that at the original core of fairy tales was sexuality? And that in the original stories, you had the female characters exploring their sexual development (BatB and Little Red Riding Hood being the big two) as part of adult maturation. We're so much more comfortable with the safe, moral version which has been presented first by the original English language translations and also obviously Disney's animated features.

I remember years ago seeing the adaption Neil Jordan did of The Company of Wolves (which includes Mr. Carson in the cast!), plus having read His Dark Materials and Jonathan Strange and Norrell.  If you include some of the seasons Stephen Moffat wrote for Dr. Who, nobody does the dark unpacking of fairytales better than the U.K.

@snufkin There are 2 essential ways of coming of age in fairytales/myths and legends:

a) The Son and the Father/The Daughter and the Mother or defeating parent's shadow/influence and thus becoming an adult

b) Beauty and the Beast or overcoming fear of (opposite) sex and thus becoming an adult. This one is very typical for stories with a heroine in the lead (Belle, Persephone, Psyche, Scheherazade, Buffy,etc)

So sex has always been there and it's a huge part of Rey and Kylo dynamics.

vaderito wrote:@snufkin There are 2 essential ways of coming of age in fairytales/myths and legends:

a) The Son and the Father/The Daughter and the Mother or defeating parent's shadow/influence and thus becoming an adult

b) Beauty and the Beast or overcoming fear of (opposite) sex and thus becoming an adult. This one is very typical for stories with a heroine in the lead (Belle, Persephone, Psyche, Scheherazade, Buffy,etc)

So sex has always been there and it's a huge part of Rey and Kylo dynamics.

@vaderito

Gotta wonder if the backstory they show for Ben has Snoke selling him on option A as part of the fall to the DS.

@snufkin Very likely. Of course, he isn't aware that he is actually the Father in their fairytale dynamics, not Han, and that Kylo will eventually defeat him.

I freakin love this scene:



Such harmony. Rey blinks a lot when she looks at Kylo.

vaderito wrote:@snufkin Very likely. Of course, he isn't aware that he is actually the Father in their fairytale dynamics, not Han, and that Kylo will eventually defeat him.

I freakin love this scene:



Such harmony. Rey blinks a lot when she looks at Kylo. :D

@vaderito

Listening to interview with Lawrence Kasdan (transcript) and one thing just stuck out from his comments about writing/directing Body Heat, that one character (in a highly sexually charged dynamic) seeks to manipulate the other characters skills and weaknesses to their own ends. Which makes me curious about VIII, if his initial reason for possibly not killing her is that he needs her help (and thinks he can manipulate her issues w/having been abandoned) to whatever 'personal interests' he's trying to play. But that could end up biting him on the a**.

Skip ahead to 17:22 to hear about TFA and about coming back to write Han again, as an older man and his relationship with his son

snufkin wrote:

Listening to interview with Lawrence Kasdan (transcript) and one thing just stuck out from his comments about writing/directing Body Heat, that one character (in a highly sexually charged dynamic) seeks to manipulate the other characters skills and weaknesses to their own ends. Which makes me curious about VIII, if his initial reason for possibly not killing her is that he needs her help (and thinks he can manipulate her issues w/having been abandoned) to whatever 'personal interests' he's trying to play. But that could end up biting him on the a**.

Skip ahead to 17:22 to hear about TFA and about coming back to write Han again, as an older man and his relationship with his son

@snufkin

I pretty much expect that to be the case/arc for VIII. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the mindgames/manipulations play out onscreen. Rey won't be some passive flower in all of this, either, although based on Daisy's comments, she might very well still end up being hurt. (Gotta figure that she gets hurt either by Luke, Kylo, or both....because it sure doesn't sound like she's going to interact with very many other characters.)

I'll be very curious to see what happens to her when she "disappears" from the cliffside fight. I know that there's been a lot of speculation here that she falls/jumps/is pushed over the cliff's edge, but for all we know, she ended up on the ground (away from the view of spectators) or winds up dangling off the edge of the cliff. If Kylo does end up saving her there, I can see him telling himself that it's because he needs her (to use her) for whatever reason, but in reality there's going to be more to it than that.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

I pretty much expect that to be the case/arc for VIII. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the mindgames/manipulations play out onscreen. Rey won't be some passive flower in all of this, either, although based on Daisy's comments, she might very well still end up being hurt. (Gotta figure that she gets hurt either by Luke, Kylo, or both....because it sure doesn't sound like she's going to interact with very many other characters.)

I'll be very curious to see what happens to her when she "disappears" from the cliffside fight. I know that there's been a lot of speculation here that she falls/jumps/is pushed over the cliff's edge, but for all we know, she ended up on the ground (away from the view of spectators) or winds up dangling off the edge of the cliff. If Kylo does end up saving her there, I can see him telling himself that it's because he needs her (to use her) for whatever reason, but in reality there's going to be more to it than that.

@ISeeAnIsland

From the (transcript) :

Lawrence: Here’s an example. The character that William Hurt plays in Body Heat, I wouldn’t call him a jerk. See, I’d never use that word. He’s not smart. He has things he’s hoping for in his life, and they haven’t really come true. But up to that point, even though he’s not smart, or canny, or anything, he has gotten by very well sort of on charm. He’s a bit of a screw up as a lawyer. He’s a small town guy.

But he has great hopes for himself. And he doesn’t know it, but someone has spotted him as a talent that will be usable. So he thinks he’s meeting a woman, but she’s actually pre-scoped him. And she knows that these very things that are his weaknesses and his greatest desires can be put to her use. And we don’t find out that she know all about it before for quite a while in the story.

An actually decently written (shocker) Tumblr essay posted on this thread today posits that in the parallels to his grandpa, the last test he has to pass to be exactly alike will be to kill Rey. Because Snoke has studied his history, so she's a proxy for Padme, plus dangerous being a powerful LS Force User who's sympathetic to the Resistance. Plus I still have my original conclusion from the first viewing that her abandonment as a child and disappearance of her parents is unfinished business for Snoke. So your above scenario could be very likely - that he'll stop himself under the pretext that he can take advantage of her to his own ends. And that will get complicated and likely end up being more than just that.

@snufkin That Kasdan discussion is weirdly reminding me of the brothers bloom! What a coincidence... I agree, the mind games are going to be something else, and they will both probably be lying to themselves about their actual feelings. I don't think it will be clear to the audience at all times what's going on between them either. Which makes sense, since much of the interrogation and snow fight interaction seems to have been glossed over too.

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin That Kasdan discussion is weirdly reminding me of the brothers bloom! What a coincidence... I agree, the mind games are going to be something else, and they will both probably be lying to themselves about their actual feelings. I don't think it will be clear to the audience at all times what's going on between them either. Which makes sense, since much of the interrogation and snow fight interaction seems to have been glossed over too.

@BastilaBey

Wow, you're right! The Body Heat comparison immediately stood out to me, because both are very sexually charged dynamics. But Brothers Bloom works too because it starts out as his con and half way through she reveals that she's been playing along and knows what he thinks that he's doing. His side of things will be clear, harder to say what Rey will be trying to do besides staying alive and following her conscience.

It won't be clear because that would take away the element of surprise. Hopefully nobody ends up in jail with a death sentence after being tricked into murder (which is what happens to Hurt's character at the end of Body Heat). I do wonder if she'll be trapped between these two men with blood ties, each telling her to not trust/kill the other one.

Also Kasdan on Rey (and Daisy Ripley)

John: So talk about point of view. Some movies, like Body Heat, are going to have a clearly limited point of view because we don’t want the audience to have more information than our protagonist does. But you look at The Force Awakens, it seems like, oh, this is from Rey’s point of view, but then you realize there’s many characters who have sort of storytelling power. And as long as we’re with one of those characters, you can have a seen driven by one of those characters.

Lawrence: Because if it were just Rey, you would be very limited. You know, you would not know all of these things that are going on with Kylo Ren and you wouldn’t — but it happens that Han comes to Rey and Chewie comes to Rey. And Boyega comes to Rey. The secret sauce of that movie is Daisy Ridley. She’s wonderful.

You know, we got lucky. What was good was we all agreed right from the start this was going to be a young woman who was going to be the protagonist. But we got really lucky when we got Daisy, because she’s more than that. And every frame she’s in glows. And her presence in the movie, you know, ripples out from every scene. So even if she’s not in, you’re sort of feeling Rey.

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin That Kasdan discussion is weirdly reminding me of the brothers bloom! What a coincidence... I agree, the mind games are going to be something else, and they will both probably be lying to themselves about their actual feelings. I don't think it will be clear to the audience at all times what's going on between them either. Which makes sense, since much of the interrogation and snow fight interaction seems to have been glossed over too.

@BastilaBey

That's an excellent point! I just get the feeling that while they're interactions are going to be very charged with UST, most of the GA won't truly figure out what's going on (especially because I expect there to be a mindgame element). This is why I think it would shock the audience and be the "I am your father" moment of the ST if we get our actual Reylo kiss at the end of VIII.

(Yeah, I had to find a way to work the Reylo kiss angle.)

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin That Kasdan discussion is weirdly reminding me of the brothers bloom! What a coincidence... I agree, the mind games are going to be something else, and they will both probably be lying to themselves about their actual feelings. I don't think it will be clear to the audience at all times what's going on between them either. Which makes sense, since much of the interrogation and snow fight interaction seems to have been glossed over too.

@BastilaBey

That's an excellent point! I just get the feeling that while they're interactions are going to be very charged with UST, most of the GA won't truly figure out what's going on (especially because I expect there to be a mindgame element). This is why I think it would shock the audience and be the "I am your father" moment of the ST if we get our actual Reylo kiss at the end of VIII.

(Yeah, I had to find a way to work the Reylo kiss angle.)

@ISeeAnIsland

They'd definitely have to do something shocking at that point. Not even for the audience, but for the characters. And after reading that comment from Kasdan about Rey and remembering another interview where Harrison Ford was asked about her and his comment was "She's awesome and she's cute," my guess is that a certain DS will be getting way in over his head.