ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 10

Deleted.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Excellent point @Mrs Ben Solo. I have said this before, but I think the books are little dress rehearsals at times for kinds of things we will see in the movies ... and I think the reaction to Leia and Ransolm's hatred of Vader could very easily be a hint of what is to come. Also, the padawans burning the temple is an unexpected, but brilliant thought. They really could think it is all lies and want to attack both of Vader's descendants.

@SoloSideCousin

The Vader reveal and accompanying feelings, etc, were THE major plot point of Bloodline. I don't know how, but I do expect some of that to play a role in what happened at the temple. I'd feel less strongly about that IF the temple events weren't happening at the same time as Bloodline. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some sort of mini-mutiny once the Vader reveal happened, and then things went all sideways for Ben and Luke.

If the KoR/Vader relic hunters were involved at some point, it's also possible that they were after both Ben and Luke--not just Ben. I'd have to think that Vader's son would be a greater "prize" than Vader's grandson.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
I agree with all of this. :-)  But the bolded particularly grabbed me.  I have never been a fan of the "he wants to kill her" spoiler.  It never felt quite in character to me ... but this ... the anger coming from a place of really vulnerable hurt, as opposed to some effort to do Snoke's bidding or to get darker (To me, Snoke was already shown to be a liar when Kylo got weaker from killing Han), feels much truer to me.  From AD's performance I definitely get the sense that at the bottom of it all that Kylo/Ben is a very hurt person, like wounded animal hurt ... and a sense of how she may have been like the others would bring out "wounded animal" blind rage for sure.

@SoloSideCousin

We've guessed here that some of his fight with Finn is straight up jealousy. He behaves like a guy who tries to stop the girl he likes from leaving the party with another guy. Especially the left hook - that's nothing to do with the First Order. We've all noticed (or why else would we be here) how very personal everything feels between the two of them, even as opponents/antagonists. From his end, he's most obviously after her power and impressed with how this scrappy little scavenger from insignificant Jakku managed to outwit and outrun both Plutt's thugs and Hux's soldiers. But I'm also not really joking with the "he wants to make her a mixtape" comments. It's that kind of personal and intense on his end. So likely he's going to feel very personally hurt with what happened, regardless of how he brought it on himself. Otherwise why would there be the rumors that he supposedly goes off after her right away and supposedly has dialogue about how "she's mine."

I think the MSW lightsaber revealed is the most interesting reveal!



The design looks like a type of double bladed lightsaber....now these are only used by two groups:
- Jedi temple Guards/ sentinels




- Sith/Dark Jedi (I found this extract from the EU book of the Sith but the same rule applies in canon)



I can envisage three possibilities based on this:

1. The double bladed lightsabers belonged to Luke's students who were jedi temple guards/sentinels who were killed during an attack. Being late teens and adults, I really find it hard to believe that Ben Solo single-handedly killed them all. Another thing I cannot understand is how padawans became temple guards....this is a role given to the most elite of jedi knights who are specially trained to be detached and wear a mask of anonymity.....and if Luke is still only a jedi knight himself, how could he train padawans to assume such a difficult role? I understand someone needs to guard the jedi temple but this could be done by regular padawans, not temple guards specifically.
This theory makes Luke's teaching methods questionable.

2. The second is that Ben Solo was a temple guard/ jedi sentinel himself. This theory makes sense if we look at the cracked crystal of his crossguard lightsaber.... it glows red and yellow.....yellow could have been the original colour of the crystal and yellow is the colour of temple guard/ sentinel lightsabers. This means either Ben Solo failed to protect the jedi temple and the students got killed or some undercover mission he was on as a sentinel went awry and he was defeated by someone in battle due to which his lightsaber was damaged and the crystal got cracked. This theory makes the most sense to me because if we change Kylo's outfit  and mask to white, it would actually look like a temple guard costume.

3. If Luke's students were using sith designs for their lightsabers, then it means his students were leaning towards the dark side and it is possible Ben (or even Luke) killed them and burnt down the temple.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I agree with most of it. I think it is very plausible scenario for Ben s motivations. As well, good questions on padawans and Luke and reaction to Vader reveal.

Everything that was written today on the subject by everyone here is very interesting and clever.
We must only decide on the start of the Snoke s influence. When it started and how? What was Ben s weakness that Snoke used to pull him into his games.

@Darth_Awakened

In TFA, Leia said that Snoke had been there "from the start" and it was him that had turned Ben to the dark side. In the Aftermath: Life Debt book, a very pregnant Leia seems to sense some kind of malevolent presence around her baby. She could just have been projecting her own fears, I'm not sure. I haven't actually read the book yet only the extract that was posted when Leia was sensing her baby through the force. But, depending on what and who Snoke actually is, there's the potential for him to have been targetting Ben through the force from before he was born. However, Ben seems to have resisted Snoke for a long time or at least struggled enough to maintain his Jedi training, unless he was being duplicitous all the time. The latter doesn't seem likely, though, given how torn apart he still was in TFA. If he had been cruelly decieving his family for years prior to actually joining Snoke, you would have thought he wouldn't need reassuring and guiding all the time by the time we meet him 5-6 years after his fall.

@Mrs Ben Solo

The Aftermath: Life Debt excerpt you read was all that was really said about the darkness around Ben in the book.

"And then, the black edging of the dark side encircles her bliss like a noose. Because what rides swift on the heels of hope but fear — a fear that stretches out far and wide like a growing shadow. Fear of having a child in an unstable galaxy. Fear of whether or not Han is alive — or Luke, too. Will the child grow up with a father? An uncle? A mentor? What is her legacy and what will her boy’s legacy be?"

Though, who knows if this is actually darkness that is around Ben, or just Leia's own fear. Or her fear because of it. I think it sounds more like her own fear, though that could be connected with the Force and, in a way, be a sign of what is coming.

But I think that Leia saying she sent Ben to Luke because "he had to much Vader in him" and all that you said really do point to Snoke being involved in some capacity early on. Unless Ben just showed signs of darkness all on his own, which is also possible. But, if the extra dialogue in the novelization is canon, as well as JJ and Adam talking about how Han and Leia "had a target for a son", Snoke was definitely always there.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Excellent point @Mrs Ben Solo.  I have said this before, but I think the books are little dress rehearsals at times for kinds of things we will see in the movies ... and I think the reaction to Leia and Ransolm's hatred of Vader could very easily be a hint of what is to come.  Also, the padawans burning the temple is an unexpected, but brilliant thought.  They really could think it is all lies and want to attack both of Vader's descendants.

@SoloSideCousin

The Vader reveal and accompanying feelings, etc, were THE major plot point of Bloodline. I don't know how, but I do expect some of that to play a role in what happened at the temple. I'd feel less strongly about that IF the temple events weren't happening at the same time as Bloodline. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some sort of mini-mutiny once the Vader reveal happened, and then things went all sideways for Ben and Luke.

If the KoR/Vader relic hunters were involved at some point, it's also possible that they were after both Ben and Luke--not just Ben. I'd have to think that Vader's son would be a greater "prize" than Vader's grandson.

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh, I liking this theory so much. The Padawans started a riot against them and during Kylo trying to defense himself, he tapped into the Dark Side while I think Luke is more reluctant on have to fight his own students but he could also used the Dark Side power to a degree. In the end, Kylo could offer Luke to join him and Snoke but Luke feel ashamed choose to exile himself right then and there. The lack of Force Ghosts could because Luke feel so ashamed that he prevent them from appearing to him. It's weird to me that while Kylo clearly did not like his father but still have some lingering regards his family, he's almost entirely act as if Luke id not related to him at all, its just distance.

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
I agree with all of this. :-)  But the bolded particularly grabbed me.  I have never been a fan of the "he wants to kill her" spoiler.  It never felt quite in character to me ... but this ... the anger coming from a place of really vulnerable hurt, as opposed to some effort to do Snoke's bidding or to get darker (To me, Snoke was already shown to be a liar when Kylo got weaker from killing Han), feels much truer to me.  From AD's performance I definitely get the sense that at the bottom of it all that Kylo/Ben is a very hurt person, like wounded animal hurt ... and a sense of how she may have been like the others would bring out "wounded animal" blind rage for sure.

@SoloSideCousin

We've guessed here that some of his fight with Finn is straight up jealousy. He behaves like a guy who tries to stop the girl he likes from leaving the party with another guy. Especially the left hook - that's nothing to do with the First Order. We've all noticed (or why else would we be here) how very personal everything feels between the two of them, even as opponents/antagonists. From his end, he's most obviously after her power and impressed with how this scrappy little scavenger from insignificant Jakku managed to outwit and outrun both Plutt's thugs and Hux's soldiers. But I'm also not really joking with the "he wants to make her a mixtape" comments. It's that kind of personal and intense on his end. So likely he's going to feel very personally hurt with what happened, regardless of how he brought it on himself. Otherwise why would there be the rumors that he supposedly goes off after her right away and supposedly has dialogue about how "she's mine."

@snufkin

Yes! ALL OF THIS! I was also never comfortable with the "Kylo is enraged and wants to kill Rey" motivation from that spoiler.

Being in a jealous rage, though? That's completely in-character, IMO. Especially the bit about from the connection he felt, he thought that she was different than everyone else who has betrayed or let him down. The spurned (Force) lover angle just makes way more sense.

And yeah, he does want to use her for her powers/get her to join him and all that, but with the way that Adam played the part, there was also something more going on there.

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
I agree with all of this. :-)  But the bolded particularly grabbed me.  I have never been a fan of the "he wants to kill her" spoiler.  It never felt quite in character to me ... but this ... the anger coming from a place of really vulnerable hurt, as opposed to some effort to do Snoke's bidding or to get darker (To me, Snoke was already shown to be a liar when Kylo got weaker from killing Han), feels much truer to me.  From AD's performance I definitely get the sense that at the bottom of it all that Kylo/Ben is a very hurt person, like wounded animal hurt ... and a sense of how she may have been like the others would bring out "wounded animal" blind rage for sure.

@SoloSideCousin

We've guessed here that some of his fight with Finn is straight up jealousy. He behaves like a guy who tries to stop the girl he likes from leaving the party with another guy. Especially the left hook - that's nothing to do with the First Order. We've all noticed (or why else would we be here) how very personal everything feels between the two of them, even as opponents/antagonists. From his end, he's most obviously after her power and impressed with how this scrappy little scavenger from insignificant Jakku managed to outwit and outrun both Plutt's thugs and Hux's soldiers. But I'm also not really joking with the "he wants to make her a mixtape" comments. It's that kind of personal and intense on his end. So likely he's going to feel very personally hurt with what happened, regardless of how he brought it on himself. Otherwise why would there be the rumors that he supposedly goes off after her right away and supposedly has dialogue about how "she's mine."

@snufkin

Yeah, in some weird way - maybe that he is not even conscious of himself - Kylo is going to feel betrayed by Rey's rejection. Offering to teach her probably came from an irrationally sincere place, because he identified with her and felt like he'd found someone who might be able to understand him. Clearly he did a terrible job of appealing to her, and may not even be aware that it's his actions she's judging him on, she has no reason to see any redeeming qualities he might have at this point. It's all going to fuel his anger, and he will get to Ahch-To feeling like he has to stamp out his compassion for her somehow. It doesn't need to be as specific as "I must kill her", but it makes sense for spoilers to come out with that as his assumed motive, if he lands there and immediately makes towards her as if to fight.

jakkusun wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I agree with most of it. I think it is very plausible scenario for Ben s motivations. As well, good questions on padawans and Luke and reaction to Vader reveal.

Everything that was written today on the subject by everyone here is very interesting and clever.
We must only decide on the start of the Snoke s influence. When it started and how? What was Ben s weakness that Snoke used to pull him into his games.

@Darth_Awakened

In TFA, Leia said that Snoke had been there "from the start" and it was him that had turned Ben to the dark side. In the Aftermath: Life Debt book, a very pregnant Leia seems to sense some kind of malevolent presence around her baby. She could just have been projecting her own fears, I'm not sure. I haven't actually read the book yet only the extract that was posted when Leia was sensing her baby through the force. But, depending on what and who Snoke actually is, there's the potential for him to have been targetting Ben through the force from before he was born. However, Ben seems to have resisted Snoke for a long time or at least struggled enough to maintain his Jedi training, unless he was being duplicitous all the time. The latter doesn't seem likely, though, given how torn apart he still was in TFA. If he had been cruelly decieving his family for years prior to actually joining Snoke, you would have thought he wouldn't need reassuring and guiding all the time by the time we meet him 5-6 years after his fall.

@Mrs Ben Solo

The Aftermath: Life Debt excerpt you read was all that was really said about the darkness around Ben in the book.

"And then, the black edging of the dark side encircles her bliss like a noose. Because what rides swift on the heels of hope but fear — a fear that stretches out far and wide like a growing shadow. Fear of having a child in an unstable galaxy. Fear of whether or not Han is alive — or Luke, too. Will the child grow up with a father? An uncle? A mentor? What is her legacy and what will her boy’s legacy be?"

Though, who knows if this is actually darkness that is around Ben, or just Leia's own fear. Or her fear because of it. I think it sounds more like her own fear, though that could be connected with the Force and, in a way, be a sign of what is coming.

But I think that Leia saying she sent Ben to Luke because "he had to much Vader in him" and all that you said really do point to Snoke being involved in some capacity early on. Unless Ben just showed signs of darkness all on his own, which is also possible. But, if the extra dialogue in the novelization is canon, as well as JJ and Adam talking about how Han and Leia "had a target for a son", Snoke was definitely always there.

@jakkusun

I never really interpreted that bit about the darkness being about Ben/Snoke. I think it's more about the typical doubts/fears of someone about to become a parent (especially during an ongoing war) mixed with some of Leia's feelings about her own darkness.

The big thing to note with Life Debt is that at the end of the book, Leia is very pregnant, and it appears that everyone (both Rebellion and Empire) is heading to Jakku for a big showdown. So, I could see a scenario where Leia goes into labor on Jakku and actually gives birth to Ben there. Or a very pregnant Leia or Leia-with-newborn-Ben cross paths there with Gallius Rax, who would appear to have close ties to Snoke (in that there are a lot of uncanny parallels between the characters). If Rax knows/encounters Ben, I could see that being some sort of gateway to Snoke...or at the very least, making Snoke aware of Ben's existence.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

Yes! ALL OF THIS! I was also never comfortable with the "Kylo is enraged and wants to kill Rey" motivation from that spoiler.

Being in a jealous rage, though? That's completely in-character, IMO. Especially the bit about from the connection he felt, he thought that she was different than everyone else who has betrayed or let him down. The spurned (Force) lover angle just makes way more sense.

And yeah, he does want to use her for her powers/get her to join him and all that, but with the way that Adam played the part, there was also something more going on there.

BastilaBey wrote:
@snufkin

Yeah, in some weird way - maybe that he is not even conscious of himself - Kylo is going to feel betrayed by Rey's rejection. Offering to teach her probably came from an irrationally sincere place, because he identified with her and felt like he'd found someone who might be able to understand him. Clearly he did a terrible job of appealing to her, and may not even be aware that it's his actions she's judging him on, she has no reason to see any redeeming qualities he might have at this point. It's all going to fuel his anger, and he will get to Ahch-To feeling like he has to stamp out his compassion for her somehow. It doesn't need to be as specific as "I must kill her", but it makes sense for spoilers to come out with that as his assumed motive, if he lands there and immediately makes towards her as if to fight.

@ISeeAnIsland "@BastilaBey


It'll be like the awkward situation when you run into somebody who asked you out and you had no clue that they were even interested in them but turned them down. With lightsabers, on a mystical Jedi island, and with hormones running amok.

He was fixated on her even before it became clear she had powers (which turn out to be equal to his). There was more going on there than just wanting to get the map from her. The whole "guest" line is straight up out of the chivalry playbook - in the oldest sense being a guest means under somebody's protection and their responsibility. It's extended as an honor, so he likely sees it as her spurning a rarely bestowed (or never bestowed) privilege he gave to her.  if they ever planned on moving the "compassion/weakness" line in VIII instead of VII, that would be the situation to use it. And at that point, if she knows enough about what happened to him and there was a betrayal/mob scene by his fellow students, that would make it more ambiguous besides him just showing up to kill her for revenge.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

Yes! ALL OF THIS! I was also never comfortable with the "Kylo is enraged and wants to kill Rey" motivation from that spoiler.

Being in a jealous rage, though? That's completely in-character, IMO. Especially the bit about from the connection he felt, he thought that she was different than everyone else who has betrayed or let him down. The spurned (Force) lover angle just makes way more sense.

And yeah, he does want to use her for her powers/get her to join him and all that, but with the way that Adam played the part, there was also something more going on there.

BastilaBey wrote:
@snufkin

Yeah, in some weird way - maybe that he is not even conscious of himself - Kylo is going to feel betrayed by Rey's rejection. Offering to teach her probably came from an irrationally sincere place, because he identified with her and felt like he'd found someone who might be able to understand him. Clearly he did a terrible job of appealing to her, and may not even be aware that it's his actions she's judging him on, she has no reason to see any redeeming qualities he might have at this point. It's all going to fuel his anger, and he will get to Ahch-To feeling like he has to stamp out his compassion for her somehow. It doesn't need to be as specific as "I must kill her", but it makes sense for spoilers to come out with that as his assumed motive, if he lands there and immediately makes towards her as if to fight.

@ISeeAnIsland "@BastilaBey


It'll be like the awkward situation when you run into somebody who asked you out and you had no clue that they were even interested in them but turned them down. With lightsabers, on a mystical Jedi island, and with hormones running amok.

He was fixated on her even before it became clear she had powers (which turn out to be equal to his). There was more going on there than just wanting to get the map from her. The whole "guest" line is straight up out of the chivalry playbook - in the oldest sense being a guest means under somebody's protection and their responsibility. It's extended as an honor, so he likely sees it as her spurning a rarely bestowed (or never bestowed) privilege he gave to her.  if they ever planned on moving the "compassion/weakness" line in VIII instead of VII, that would be the situation to use it. And at that point, if she knows enough about what happened to him and there was a betrayal/mob scene by his fellow students, that would make it more ambiguous besides him just showing up to kill her for revenge.

@snufkin

And if you throw in my suspicion that he actually helped push the Force to her when they're making sex faces at each other in the snowfight, which she then took and used to beat his a**, then she also took what I'm sure he saw as a "gift" that he was offering her, used him for it, and then left him for dead.

That's a pretty brutal rejection, and another possibility for fueling his rage.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

And if you throw in my suspicion that he actually helped push the Force to her when they're making sex faces at each other in the snowfight, which she then took and used to beat his a**, then she also took what I'm sure he saw as a "gift" that he was offering her, used him for it, and then left him for dead.

That's a pretty brutal rejection, and another possibility for fueling his rage.

@ISeeAnIsland

I agree! Damn, there are all these details which weren't spelled out where I'm like "will they every have people talk about 'what were you thinking about __________?!" Which doesn't sound feasible because you can't spend a whole lot of movie dialogue on reviewing what happened in the previous movie. Unless there's going to be a subplot where Luke, Rey, and Ben go to group therapy together with Maz to work out their issues. Or crazy thought - what if he was attacked and almost left for dead by the other students turning on him and Snoke saved him? Basically a parallel between what happened in their fight. That would way drive home both her conflicted feelings and that the fall of Luke's new generation wasn't as clear cut as Han's story.

It'll be a more violent and emotionally volatile version of this, when Leia first tries to brush Han off when he says that he's leaving Hoth. His face is very vulnerable when he comes to say goodbye and when she's very cold in her response, he flips to this hurt little boy response

via GIPHY

Deleted.

ViviF wrote:No offense meant but this current discussion has made me realize I ship Reylo less than I thought. Maybe antis are getting to me but I wouldn't ship them if I saw the movie like you do. In canon Kylo has a mission to retrieve the map and it so happens that there's a girl who has seen the map. He took her with him which he also did with Poe, and he's facetiously polite with Poe too but you pervert his behavior to an uncomfortable degree, making him into a sex crazed monster. Here's the reason why he chases her, from the script:

KYLO REN
Supreme Leader. I can get the map from the girl. I just need your guidance.

SNOKE
If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me.

The map, again. Which leads to the First Jedi Temple and he definitely has several reasons in getting it apart from Snoke's order.

GENERAL HUX
They may have the map already.

Snoke is visibly furious.

SNOKE
Then the Resistance must be destroyed before they get to Skywalker.

GENERAL HUX
We have their location. We tracked their reconnaissance ship to the Ileenium system.

SNOKE
Good. Then we will crush them once and for all. Prepare the weapon.

Kylo Ren is stunned by the moment -- that isn't what he meant at all --

Getting the map could've prevented the firing against the Ileenium system, and if any of you think Kylo has any humanity at all you must've seen how the camera rapidly moved towards Kylo when Starkiller was fired and it looked like he was hit. Kylo stood stoically, the way Leia was stoic when the Death Star destroyed Alderaan. He must've felt the billions of souls dying.

@ViviF

While I understand what you mean it made absolutely no sense as to why Kylo would let BB-8 go and just take Rey.I mean even if he was sure she'd seen the map seeing it in her memories is nothing compared to the accurate way BB-8 would have showed it to him.We're talking about human memory of the map w vs the dorid who's carrying the actual map.They also changed the scene where Kylo picks her up because originally he was suppose to let her fall to the ground so they made that change later on most likely during filming which tells me it was deliberate and they knew what they were doing.He also makes himself vulnerable to attack by choosing to carry Rey by himself there's no logic behind that.We're meant to compare the scenes with Poe and Rey's interrogations because Poe's is much more brutal Kylo's clearly torturing him to get the information he needs while his behaviour with Rey's different.
The script also makes it clear that there Kylo and Rey felt a connection during the interrogation and for a moment they weren't enemies.Plus they also shot the scene where Snoke accuses Kylo of having compassion for Rey which comes straight from the TFA novalization.
This is a good gifset that shows how Kylo treats Rey vs how he treats other characters:
http://mrsariayoureakiller.tumblr.com/post/148449008208/ladee-sith-your-reylo-is-showing#notes

@Vivif I can't point you to the specific pages right now but we have definitely discussed the - presumably intentional - parallel with Kylo watching Hosnian Prime blow up and Leia watching Alderaan. Bloodline gives reason to believe Ben spent at least some of his childhood there, although it's not clear how often the New Republic's capital relocates.

Also, a lot of us have a pretty tongue in cheek attitude towards how Kylo behaves around Rey. Perhaps that's a response to some of the ridiculously overblown anti 'discourse', but it's also pretty up for debate how aware Kylo is of the way he treats her differently from Poe and Finn, how genuine his denial is when he's accused of developing compassion for her, etc, etc. The point is, reylo is 99% subtext right now. It doesn't stop Kylo from being the villain of the story, and it is completely understandable how Rey responds to being kidnapped, interrogated and chased through the forest. It is absolutely critical to any possible redemption arc that she rejected him. She will not tolerate that behavior, that's the point. I hope we haven't offended you and you still feel you can come here and share your views.

ViviF wrote:No offense meant but this current discussion has made me realize I ship Reylo less than I thought. Maybe antis are getting to me but I wouldn't ship them if I saw the movie like you do. In canon Kylo has a mission to retrieve the map and it so happens that there's a girl who has seen the map. He took her with him which he also did with Poe, and he's facetiously polite with Poe too but you pervert his behavior to an uncomfortable degree, making him into a sex crazed monster. Here's the reason why he chases her, from the script:

KYLO REN
Supreme Leader. I can get the map from the girl. I just need your guidance.

SNOKE
If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me.

The map, again. Which leads to the First Jedi Temple and he definitely has several reasons in getting it apart from Snoke's order.

GENERAL HUX
They may have the map already.

Snoke is visibly furious.

SNOKE
Then the Resistance must be destroyed before they get to Skywalker.

GENERAL HUX
We have their location. We tracked their reconnaissance ship to the Ileenium system.

SNOKE
Good. Then we will crush them once and for all. Prepare the weapon.

Kylo Ren is stunned by the moment -- that isn't what he meant at all --

Getting the map could've prevented the firing against the Ileenium system, and if any of you think Kylo has any humanity at all you must've seen how the camera rapidly moved towards Kylo when Starkiller was fired and it looked like he was hit. Kylo stood stoically, the way Leia was stoic when the Death Star destroyed Alderaan. He must've felt the billions of souls dying.

@ViviF

Don't worry. I don't see reylo in a super sexual way myself. I think there is some attraction and interest going on, but that Kylo is more interested in Rey as a person, powerful force user, and possible ally. Maybe I'm too innocent but I don't think he really has sex on the brain, but that the attraction is a little bit more subconscious.

I also don't think he was was jealous of Finn being with Rey. I thought it was more out of self hatred that he punished Finn so much. When he let Finn go, he "failed" and was taking out his anger on Finn, I think. And I don't think he was possessive of Rey, either. I think he respected her a bit more than that and saw her a little more as an equal, a worthy opponent or a powerful ally. I don't usually mention all this, because I don't care about debating it. I don't mind that others disagree and there is nothing wrong with how others see all this. I just don't see it the same way. And as @BastilaBey pointed out, I think a lot of it can be exaggerated for fun, sometimes. I don't personally enjoy it, but if others do, that's fine with me. I'm writing this because maybe it would make you feel better to know that there are different ways and levels of interpereting Reylo on this forum.

I do have to agree with @CienaRee that Kylo's choice to take Rey and stop searching for BB8 doesn't make sense with his desire to find the map. Finding BB8 would have been safer and smarter. I think he was curious about her as a force user, and attraction comes second (and I think he is in denial about it a lot too). So yes, I think a lot of the reason he wanted to get Rey back after she escaped was wanting to stop the destruction of the Ileenium system. I really agree with you there. But I think there was also a desire to get her as ally, hence "I could show you the ways of the force" when the base was already falling apart and couldn't blow anything up anymore.

@ViviF Don't worry. There's a large group of folks here who have a very wide range of where Reylo will actually go in the subsequent films. While the majority of us here believe it absolutely to be canon, as to where the story will go or what that will entail comes with a wide range of varying opinions. Some people (like myself) hope for an actual physical kiss in VIII, while others see the film ending with just an almost kiss at the end of IX.

Others see their relationship growing on a more spiritual/metaphysical level as opposed to a sexual one. None of these are wrong as it's anyone's guess at this point, and it's what makes this place great!

I'm sure no matter what your tastes are, you're bound to find someone here that has your same train of thought.

@ViviF I apologize if anything I posted was offensive. Some of us have been posting here for a lot longer and we've developed so many inside jokes that we forget how those jokes come across to others. As others have noted, we all have our different ways that we ship Reylo here.

I don't see him as a sex-crazed monster, even if I do goof around with sex metaphors at times. We do all see him with different levels of fixation on/attraction to Rey.

In case you missed it, I do want to point out that where a lot of us got the idea that Kylo will be obsessed with Rey at the beginning of VIII comes from a spoiler from Making Star Wars (MSW) a few months ago. Those guys seem to have fairly reliable sources, so many of us tend to give more weight to the reliability of the spoilers/leaks that they post. The leak in question was an action scene filmed in Ireland...the one where Kylo shows up with the Knights of Ren (KoR) and attack Luke and Rey. According to the leak (from what was seen by witnesses and supposedly overheard dialogue), Kylo goes straight for Rey and separates her from Luke. He's supposedly out for revenge and says things like "she's mine!" while this is going on. So, take it with a grain of salt because it's a "leak," but it does sound like the next encounter between Rey and Kylo could be very personal.

Mo spoilers from Jason. No specific detail but big deal in the context. From Podcast thread, in case some of you missed it:

Credit: @BastilaBey

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/09/rogue-won-a-star-wars-podcast-for-winners-episode-20/

Jason Ward is a guest on this week's rogue won podcast

at 21 minutes, after having talked about Luke being confirmed in IX, he says that they have been hearing about plans for books about finn that will be set in the time period of episode viii. To Jason, this confirms that Finn will 'have his own subplot and be off on his own adventure'.

We knew that Finn and Rey were going to be separated based on how TFA ended and Daisy being in Ireland with AD and MH, but I'm very intrigued to see what this actually means for what we'll see of Finn's story in the movie itself and what questions will need to be answered by new canon books.

After this, Jason says there will be a need for their paths to converge at the end of viii, and says he thinks Finn's mission - whatever it is - goes wrong, he needs help and this might be how he and Rey meet again.

"But so far, there hasn't been anything strong and conclusive that says Luke Skywalker and Rey leave Ahch-to"

Like we were saying for months and months, Finn headlines his own story, has his own adventures. Unlike Jason, I do not expect ESB repeat here, especially not that Finn needs Rey to save him again. His story, his way out of sticky situation. IMO, what we know about VIII deviates from ESB so much that shoe-horning plot repeats wouldn't be in character or work.

Is this Jason's speculation or something he actually knows first hand? Regardless, even if Rey and Finn do meet again at the end of VIII, I think it will be very clear neither of them are the same people they were at the end of TFA. It will be clear that their paths of diverged - she will be firmly entrenched in the Force plot, while he will be planted securely with the Resistance.

@iojovi the bit about Rey and Finn meeting at the end of VIII is Jason's speculation - and as @vaderito says, it sounds as if it's because of the ESB formula that most people will be expecting. Right after that he said there's currently nothing that actually suggests Rey and Luke leave Ahch-to by the end of VIII. Presumably, those scenes would have been the most heavily guarded because they'll reveal whether Rey or Kylo's loyalties have somehow changed.

vaderito wrote:Like we were saying for months and months, Finn headlines his own story, has his own adventures. Unlike Jason, I do not expect ESB repeat here, especially not that Finn needs Rey to save him again. His story, his way out of sticky situation. IMO, what we know about VIII deviates from ESB so much that shoe-horning plot repeats wouldn't be in character or work.

@vaderito I'm wondering if one way they do this is have KMT save Finn from enemies during their first meeting or their first battle together (and maybe have him do the famous Kylo stare as he witnesses it), and then have him defend her at the end, only this time he succeeds in defeating the villain - showing how far he has come and changed.

IoJovi wrote:Is this Jason's speculation or something he actually knows first hand?  Regardless, even if Rey and Finn do meet again at the end of VIII, I think it will be very clear neither of them are the same people they were at the end of TFA.  It will be clear that their paths of diverged - she will be firmly entrenched in the Force plot, while he will be planted securely with the Resistance.

@IoJovi

What @BastilaBey says.

@Applecrumble122 Enough with saving Finn! Let the guy save someone! Like KMT! he'll save her by riding the space horse.

BastilaBey wrote:@iojovi the bit about Rey and Finn meeting at the end of VIII is Jason's speculation - and as @vaderito says, it sounds as if it's because of the ESB formula that most people will be expecting. Right after that he said there's currently nothing that actually suggests Rey and Luke leave Ahch-to by the end of VIII. Presumably, those scenes would have been the most heavily guarded because they'll reveal whether Rey or Kylo's loyalties have somehow changed.

@BastilaBey

Right. And I think that most of us are simply speculating that Luke leaves Ahch-To (knowing nothing about Rey) at the end of VIII for a few reasons:

• It would make sense for him to re-join his sister (and the Resistance) at the end of VIII--it's a logical character arc for someone who has spent the past ~5 years in exile.
  
• The rumored costume change, which sounds more like a "rejoining society" outfit than a "hermit on an island" outfit.
  
• Mark trimmed his beard a bit towards the end of his work on VIII...however, according to his social media, he had NOT wrapped filming quite yet when he trimmed his beard.
  

@iseeanisland mmhmm, exactly. Plus the very good points being made yesterday that because the overall tone of VIII's end will likely be dark, a reunion between the twins might be a nice silver lining to lighten the tone slightly.

So...where does that leave Rey and Kylo? I guess we can continue to torture ourselves with that question