Marketing for Episode VIII

snufkin wrote:@skystar



@Kessel - I know, even if we get her in the film and whatever role she played in writing the screenplay, characters, and stories, this is mos def a moment in our culture about misogyny and how women have been treated by the entertainment industry where her voice is missing. Including the insights she had before she even was in the first movie thanks to her mother's career/battle against the machine. Instead we'll get a boring as Hell press junket (and sorry, Mark Hamill is certainly a very nice guy & has a good a sense of humor but he's not a genius social critic/raconteur the way Carrie was). Anyways, I think we'll see a lot of Debbie and her life battles in this version of Leia, which makes it extra sad that they're both gone. One of my BINGO square predictions should be that the movie will be dedicated to the both of them, which is at least a pretty bad a** footnote for both of them to have on their filmographies.

Otherwise, that Korean marketing!!! Like gosh, there's nothing there about a plucky young girl who finds her long-lost father and they team up to murder her evil cousin who is just awful and doesn't appreciate his mom. The only thing Rey looks in danger of losing in this marketing is @panki's comment that the Skywalker special will be losing your heart. That cleavage though, she also looks like she's in danger of losing her virginity.

Here is a question I've had recently about the ongoing backlash from the more traditionalist corners of the fandom against this topic, both in terms of gender and nationalities. Which traditionally has been the Western/English speaking part of the world. At some point between now and the end of the OT, it somehow got to be very very male (the whole business of when the nerds became the jocks in our culture). People have based their whole identities and among fans, their levels of credibility/visibility/voice on knowledge of and participation in this particular fictional universe. Which happens with all types of creative works and long before Star Wars, like the example of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's love-hate relationship with Sherlock Holmes thanks to the fans. But with the ST, you start to see the new corporate owners reaching out to people who don't fit that core demographic - women/young girls, people of color/non Western nationalities and ethnicities, people whose areas of expertise aren't Pew Pew Pew but things like classic literature/folklore/fairytales, film history, K Drama and Anime fans, et cetera. Basically the fanboys and fangirls (many of whom have been battling to coexist in the same space as the fanboys) who've been fans prior to the ST find that the script has been flipped. That these new fans either don't follow those rules or that they have a better understanding of what the "new rules" are for this fictional universe. Which is likely threatening as Hell, to have to make space for these fans and potentially lose some (or all) of your hegemony. Like I'd love to have an open discussion with the marketing team, especially the international marketing teams, for this franchise because I bet that these are issues they've tracked, in terms of loyal brand customers versus reaching out to new ones in new demographics/markets. I can't speak to Reddit Tumblr et all, but if you follow the really vocal fans on Twitter, they're almost across the board either American or from the British Commonwealth. Versus here, where we have a really fascinating mix of predominantly female community members, but from I'd bet those of us who are the native English speakers US/British Commonwealth are outnumbered by the rest of you.

snufkin wrote:@Atenais - I lived in the Caribbean and have spent time in Brazil (and too many other Latin American countries to list), so I definitely notice the Brazilian cohort here! It is that slight cultural difference between the Anglo and more Latin sensibilities. People forget that cross-cultural shifts go both ways, like everybody else in the world knows what our brands and cultural products are, why shouldn't we also know (and understand) things like telenovelas or K-Drama. Both are perfectly valid analogies to make to the ST, just that some fans aren't interested in that because it's outside their level of cultural familiarity/comfort, so they try to write it off as invalid arguments.

The part about people wanting Rey to stay some pure good girl, that's also interesting and gets into how no matter the cultural setting, young girls and women get that role of being the barometer of morality forced on them. So people expect Rey to be a certain way. Which I have no doubt she'll continue to operate by a personal code, which is evolving as she ventures further out into the larger world and coming into her identity as a fully developed/self-determined adult. But the amount of discussion around what she "should" or "shouldn't do" and who (meaning her big evil cousin who's a threat to her purity) is part of the underlying tension in these pushbacks. My based on no actual data, but just observation is that the fans who are fine with what's been shown/hinted at for her relationship with Kylo are likely the ones who also don't just have a more relaxed view towards romance/sensuality, but who likely also see the double standard. Nobody here wants her to be like Padme, sidelined and defined as part of the bad boy character's storyline. It's actually the opposite here - he's the LI and his story is driven by her character arc. So far it's been pretty subversive in flipping the gender dynamics, which is definitely not the norm. And part of what likely interests most of us in discussing this topic. It's just unfortunate more fans/writers haven't figured this out or don't recognize what's happening here is pretty subversive.

Atenais wrote:

snufkin wrote:@Atenais - I lived in the Caribbean and have spent time in Brazil (and too many other Latin American countries to list), so I definitely notice the Brazilian cohort here! It is that slight cultural difference between the Anglo and more Latin sensibilities. People forget that cross-cultural shifts go both ways, like everybody else in the world knows what our brands and cultural products are, why shouldn't we also know (and understand) things like telenovelas or K-Drama. Both are perfectly valid analogies to make to the ST, just that some fans aren't interested in that because it's outside their level of cultural familiarity/comfort, so they try to write it off as invalid arguments.

The part about people wanting Rey to stay some pure good girl, that's also interesting and gets into how no matter the cultural setting, young girls and women get that role of being the barometer of morality forced on them. So people expect Rey to be a certain way. Which I have no doubt she'll continue to operate by a personal code, which is evolving as she ventures further out into the larger world and coming into her identity as a fully developed/self-determined adult. But the amount of discussion around what she "should" or "shouldn't do" and who (meaning her big evil cousin who's a threat to her purity) is part of the underlying tension in these pushbacks. My based on no actual data, but just observation is that the fans who are fine with what's been shown/hinted at for her relationship with Kylo are likely the ones who also don't just have a more relaxed view towards romance/sensuality, but who likely also see the double standard. Nobody here wants her to be like Padme, sidelined and defined as part of the bad boy character's storyline. It's actually the opposite here - he's the LI and his story is driven by her character arc. So far it's been pretty subversive in flipping the gender dynamics, which is definitely not the norm. And part of what likely interests most of us in discussing this topic. It's just unfortunate more fans/writers haven't figured this out or don't recognize what's happening here is pretty subversive.

@snufkin

The bolded is brilliant, my friend.

Since American culture is an hegemony, people tend to forget that, as you said, cross-cultural shifts go both ways. The rest of the world tend to understand better Anglo culture, because we are bombarded with it since always, but every culture has its peculiarities and characteristics, what make our a richer world. That's the reason why I love to be part of forums like that, where we can talk with people from all the world and see the POV from different groups.

Talking about Rey, I don't know why her sexuality has to impact her values. I totally dislike the idea that she has to be pure to be good, as if it was the only way for a woman to be a model. Or we are good and pure or we are sexual vamps, trying to bend men with our art and allurements (lol).

"Nobody here wants her to be like Padme, sidelined and defined as part of the bad boy character's storyline."

One of the things that really bothers me in this fandom it's to see people putting our feminists values in question, just because we read the story from other perspective. It's so shallow and unfair. But in this modern society, where Social Media became a window for morality and stupidity, people don't care about really discussing things in its profundity. If you want Rey to have a partner, you're sexist, if you don't support the couple Rey and Finn you're racist, if you sympathize with Kylo, you're nazi. Everything is black or white.

vaderito wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

Atenais wrote:

snufkin wrote:@Atenais - I lived in the Caribbean and have spent time in Brazil (and too many other Latin American countries to list), so I definitely notice the Brazilian cohort here! It is that slight cultural difference between the Anglo and more Latin sensibilities. People forget that cross-cultural shifts go both ways, like everybody else in the world knows what our brands and cultural products are, why shouldn't we also know (and understand) things like telenovelas or K-Drama. Both are perfectly valid analogies to make to the ST, just that some fans aren't interested in that because it's outside their level of cultural familiarity/comfort, so they try to write it off as invalid arguments.

The part about people wanting Rey to stay some pure good girl, that's also interesting and gets into how no matter the cultural setting, young girls and women get that role of being the barometer of morality forced on them. So people expect Rey to be a certain way. Which I have no doubt she'll continue to operate by a personal code, which is evolving as she ventures further out into the larger world and coming into her identity as a fully developed/self-determined adult. But the amount of discussion around what she "should" or "shouldn't do" and who (meaning her big evil cousin who's a threat to her purity) is part of the underlying tension in these pushbacks. My based on no actual data, but just observation is that the fans who are fine with what's been shown/hinted at for her relationship with Kylo are likely the ones who also don't just have a more relaxed view towards romance/sensuality, but who likely also see the double standard. Nobody here wants her to be like Padme, sidelined and defined as part of the bad boy character's storyline. It's actually the opposite here - he's the LI and his story is driven by her character arc. So far it's been pretty subversive in flipping the gender dynamics, which is definitely not the norm. And part of what likely interests most of us in discussing this topic. It's just unfortunate more fans/writers haven't figured this out or don't recognize what's happening here is pretty subversive.

@snufkin

The bolded is brilliant, my friend.

Since American culture is an hegemony, people tend to forget that, as you said, cross-cultural shifts go both ways. The rest of the world tend to understand better Anglo culture, because we are bombarded with it since always, but every culture has its peculiarities and characteristics, what make our a richer world. That's the reason why I love to be part of forums like that, where we can talk with people from all the world and see the POV from different groups.

Talking about Rey, I don't know why her sexuality has to impact her values. I totally dislike the idea that she has to be pure to be good, as if it was the only way for a woman to be a model. Or we are good and pure or we are sexual vamps, trying to bend men with our art and allurements (lol).

"Nobody here wants her to be like Padme, sidelined and defined as part of the bad boy character's storyline."

One of the things that really bothers me in this fandom it's to see people putting our feminists values in question, just because we read the story from other perspective. It's so shallow and unfair. But in this modern society, where Social Media became a window for morality and stupidity, people don't care about really discussing things in its profundity. If you want Rey to have a partner, you're sexist, if you don't support the couple Rey and Finn you're racist, if you sympathize with Kylo, you're nazi. Everything is black or white.

@Atenais

Yes,so true you really can't win nowadays when it comes to portraying female characters and it's just so frustrating. Fankly over the years I've really grown to hate the word ''strong female character''and not because I don't think woman are strong quite the opposite,it's just that  there are lot of expectations attached go with that some of which have grown progressively worse.
I'm just curious what makes someone a strong woman?Does she have to have a set of characteristics that deems her as ''strong'' and if she's ''weak'' does that make her anti feminist or someone you shouldn't root for? For example Rey or Leia a stronger female character than Padme(I'm using SW as an example since we're talking about the fandom's overprotectivness and infantalization of Rey but there are a lot more examples of that in fiction)? Because she died of a broken heart?I'm not saying Padme couldn't have been written betteror her death wasn't a lazy and horribly written but why is she being judged more harshly than Rey or Leia?
Just from my experience it's never a good idea to put women in boxes because being a strong female character is a very subjective things - each person has different expectations of what a ''strong''female character should be and just because that character doesn't meet all his expectations doesn't mean she shouldn't be admired or loved - Rey's become a fan favorite but you'll still met people who dislike her and accuse her of being a Mary Sue and would easily start hating her if she doesn't meet their expectations for being a pure adorable cinnamon roll.

panki wrote:

shii405 wrote:

Armadeus wrote:Came across this banner:

@Armadeus



WHAT DOES IT SAY??? I SEE QUESTION MARK!! These poses specially for Disney Korea?

@shii405

I'm not sure but according to google translate the top yellow line is:

In 12th month (?), a huge destiny/fate is determined.

In December the huge destiny is going to be doomed.
Star Wars The Last Jedi
Good or Evil? Check it with the first premiere
in December IMAX released.

Irina de France wrote:@snufkin I've grown up in France and in Quebec - and let me tell you, mentality in France is VERY different from North America, and even in Quebec, you can see the cultural difference between anglophones and francophones (also, French feminism is different from Anglo-American feminism, in so many ways. I should write up an essay on the differences one of these days).

Thing is - Anglo-American mentalities are very much influenced by Protestantism, most especially the more Puritanical branches. Because of that, there is a lot more pearl-clutching, more moral purity ("will someone think of the children" and everything). Quebec is admittedly a bit of a special case (I'll spare you the history lesson), but when it comes to culture and the arts in general, France has always been a lot less conservative than the UK and the US, and that goes way back to the 17th century. Of course, there was the case of Charles Baudelaire and Les Fleurs du Mal, which pretty much demonstrates that there were still lines that weren't to be crossed, but there was still more slack given to authors for certain themes than in other countries, so to say.

vaderito wrote:@spacebaby45678 Oh, wow, never thought of that!

ZioRen wrote:After the glimpse we got of Rey using the Force in what is clearly Snoke's throne room with a downed Praetorian Guard in the back, I highly doubt that scene is a vision.