ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Long story short: I watched the video, and I don't think the dude had bad intentions. The implications that Reylo comes from "fanfiction" is pretty bad, though.

Seriously, E.L. James, f*ck you. And people should go and watch Jill Bearup's History of Fanfiction videos on Youtube.

I think what doesn't help is that it's not so much that some people believe that women can't write academical essays. I mean, if a woman wrote an essay on Jane Austen's references to the British colonies in her novels or the similarities between Cervantes and Molière, if it's well-referenced and everything, she will have no trouble being viewed as credible. The problem with Star Wars is that the fandom is typically view as male. If you really want to go for the extreme stereotype, the typical SW fan is that dudebro who still lives in his mom's basement with a giant poster of Han Solo while bitching and moaning about the blu-rays and the added CGI as if it was World War III and religiously watching the movies on VHS.

But looking at where the ST is heading... that's likely going to change.

snufkin wrote:

Gemini wrote:I'm happy Vincent credited you girls it's uch deserved and you didn't get your ish stolen like I did.

I like the video however I do somewhat agree with this tumblr post about it

http://holocroning.tumblr.com/post/160231198438/the-theory-actually-began-originally-as-a

Holocrons wrote: The theory actually began originally as a fanfiction. But as the reylo community grew, they started to realize that it may be more than just a fanfiction afterall.”
This is not what f****ing happened. This is insulting. We spent hours writing metas, drawing conclusions, analyzing that film. Many of us wrote dissertation-length pieces breaking down the subtext of the story, sourcing and evidencing our theories and articulating why we believed that was the route the story was going. Yes, it spawned fanfiction, and there is nothing wrong with fanfiction, but this is not what happened. Especially when in this context, “fanfiction” and “shipping” have been terms used to deride and insult so many of us for the last 16 months.
We did not gamble. We did not get lucky. We did not have chance on our side.
We used our brains, analyzed what we saw in front of us and articulated it into enough convincing words that people started feeling comfortable writing fanfiction and making art and shipping the ship when they had felt uncertain before.
This isn’t about whether or not reylo will be canon. This is about theories and speculation being regarded as “fanfiction” until a man gives voice to it. This is about how that video is going to be taken 10x more seriously (and probably viewed a lot more) than any of the metas and theories you all slaved over for the last year and a half, and how they’re all going to be swept under the rug along with all of the insults we’ve endured for publishing these opinions if reylo does become canon.
So no, I’m not thankful for this little pat on the back (or the lazy sourcing he included) because it’s actually a slap in the face. This was bound to happen, but it honestly stings a lot more than I thought it would and I’m seeing red.

@Gemini

Jesus, no kidding. Thanks for the credit but calling it fanfiction and shipping when no, many of us just used our brains. But sure, if a man talks about this stuff, then it's credible and not open to mocking.

Also I know some of the members here go back and forth on Tumblr, but I'd guess he's lurking here given the mentions of all the hearts and also the sexual subtext/choker shots for the cliffside scene.

@snufkin

Aren't there some outlets that would want to take on this issue of "male fandom co-opting female fandom"?  I don't listen to many podcasts or watch many videos, so I don't know this Vincent Vendetta, but I have heard you mention The Black Nerd Girl Podcast and some others.  Maybe @Gemini and some of the meta writers, a lot of which are here, can reach out to some of these outlets and be heard?  Also, I remember the NY Times interviewed @BastilaBey and @Nonesuch, and if memory serves, that interview was better than The Atlantic one.  I think that there are writers and podcasters who will be interested in this story ... and our side has the actual digital record.

@Hasi @IoJovi @spacebaby45678

I know that in the current/political environment, outlets like The Atlantic have much bigger fires to put out. But where is the follow up article about how female fans were the only ones to actually figure out the story being told by the ST filmmakers but that discussed got mocked/derided? Or Hell, is Amanda Hess available for a follow up to her NYT article? I know from previous experience in the DIY crafting community that no one person can claim IP ownership over an idea. But everything he went over has been put down in writing. Either by people in the (predominantly female) Tumblr community or forums like this place, also predominantly female posters. It's not at the level of Watson and Crick getting credit for Rosalind Franklin's work, but come on! This discussion has been happening for a year based not on wishful thinking about Kylo's hair and pecs, but based on analysis and having knowledge of film and literature. So yeah, agreed it's bullshit to frame it as "female fans started writing fanfictions about this and in a lucky coincidence, they're right." All he did was put together an outline of all the theories that have been discussed on this topic with a video/audio presentation. At this point, I think for a of us, the point isn't even about who's right in figuring out what the overall design of the story and characters is meant to be - it's that predominantly female viewers figured it out first, their interpretation was mocked/denigrated in completely sexist terms, and now that the filmmakers appear to be positioning the story in that direction, you have male fans appropriating the analysis and writing of these female fans and getting kudos not scorn for it.

@Iojovi - I totally agree with the fanfiction part. Even if that and shipping aren't my cup of tea, I found the original Atlantic article to be disingenuous in supposedly being about the phenomena as 'that thing women do as their way of relating to Star Wars.'

SoloSideCousin wrote:Aren't there some outlets that would want to take on this issue of "male fandom co-opting female fandom"?  I don't listen to many podcasts or watch many videos, so I don't know this Vincent Vendetta, but I have heard you mention The Black Nerd Girl Podcast and some others.  Maybe @Gemini and some of the meta writers, a lot of which are here, can reach out to some of these outlets and be heard?  Also, I remember the NY Times interviewed @BastilaBey and @Nonesuch, and if memory serves, that interview was better than The Atlantic one.  I think that there are writers and podcasters who will be interested in this story ... and our side has the actual digital record.

I'm sure that there are! Though at least for SW, my casual knowledge is that the whole topic of Rey getting a romantic interest, especially the villain, is controversial simply because of anxiety over the first central female lead getting slotted into a Padme/Leia type position as somebody's LI. So the topic itself gets sidestepped. Or sidetracked because the whole lack of female representation (think Carrie Fisher's comments about being the only woman in that galaxy and how in space there's also a double standard) means that a lot of these outlets have put time into fighting what you'd consider the battles of second wave feminism, in just having a place at the table and being represented. When you get into this topic, it's more third wave. Where you get both representation, but hey also if you want to ship, do fan fiction, and if the heroine wants to erm, enjoy finding the Force with the bad guy that's cool too. None of that means you're a bad feminist or takes away from her still being the protagonist/central heroine of the story. But in a lot of ways, SW has been so conservative or just lagging behind the times that the general discussions/arguments I run across seem to be about 20-25 years behind the curve versus other pop culture (I'm not one of the Buffy fans here, but you guys have brought this up repeatedly as a comparable type of heroine/LI situation).

Irina de France wrote:Long story short: I watched the video, and I don't think the dude had bad intentions. The implications that Reylo comes from "fanfiction" is pretty bad, though.

Seriously, E.L. James, f*ck you. And people should go and watch Jill Bearup's History of Fanfiction videos on Youtube.

I think what doesn't help is that it's not so much that some people believe that women can't write academical essays. I mean, if a woman wrote an essay on Jane Austen's references to the British colonies in her novels or the similarities between Cervantes and Molière, if it's well-referenced and everything, she will have no trouble being viewed as credible. The problem with Star Wars is that the fandom is typically view as male. If you really want to go for the extreme stereotype, the typical SW fan is that dudebro who still lives in his mom's basement with a giant poster of Han Solo while bitching and moaning about the blu-rays and the added CGI as if it was World War III and religiously watching the movies on VHS.

But looking at where the ST is heading... that's likely going to change.

@Irina de France

Not to mention a lot of their knowledge when it comes to film and literature begins and ends with only product published/released by Lucasfilm. Or even the whole RPG/gaming market that LF got into during the years between producing the OT and the PT. They're all closed systems and a lot of what I've read, you'll notice that they know who Joseph Campbell is. But beyond that, it's fairly easy to notice details if you'd paid any attention to the filmmakers Lucas always references (David Lean, Akira Kurosawa, and John Ford), had a subscription to Turner Classic Movies, or had actually paid attention in literature class in school.

And whatever with the EL James cracks. She made a sh*tload of money off the books and movies. I've seen it brought up on Film Nerd Twitter, but there's a phenomena with the movies for both of those franchises where the first one was written/directed by woman, made a boatload of money, and then gosh the whole operation gets taken over by male directors/writers while the original one disappears from sight w/no big level film followup. Again, that's some pretty outright appropriation.

Anyone who believes that directors look for inspiration on the internet by looking at fanfiction should seriously reconsider posting any sort of "explanation videos". You know, this is what I really hate about the current time - not only are people too lazy to bother to look things up properly, but they lack the media competence to distinguish between good sources and bad sources - which ends in statements like "this very likely upcoming storyline was invented by fans, not Lucasfilms hired directors and artists, because it's absolutely impossible to look at a movie really closely instead of just ranting "Oh noes, rehash! BOOO!" and of course Lucasfilms is only making the story up as they go, no planning whatsoever".

I thought I'd never really get too much into feminism, I mean I can vote in elections and I can out-earn male coworkers now, but this stupidity of robbing female fans of their credibility, simultaneously belittling their work, while everything these idiots have been doing the past few months is believe in and talk about ridiculous BS like Reywalker, Rey Solo or even in Rey as reincarnation of Anakin (!!!), is getting on my nerves now. (And no I'm not sorry for calling them idiots at this point. I'm not going to mince my words when these folks think of female fans as only-horny-mindless-crazy women without a shred of accountability left, because cheering for Adam Driver is somehow unacceptable compared to masturbating to Daisy Ridley's photos. )

And yes, this forum obviously has lurkers (hello 4chan btw *waves).

I feel like starting a Youtube channel now. Help me.

Irina de France wrote:I feel like starting a Youtube channel now. Help me.

@Irina de France

IoJovi wrote:@spacebaby45678 On my first viewing, those choker shots were what told me where the central story in the ST was headed.  No words were spoken and nothing was highlighted in big bold letters, but forme the message was clear as day.  I sat up straight in my seat, wide eyed.

I was a goner from that point, hook, line and sinker.

@IoJovi

I kinda got the visuals as meaning something to their relationship and it was not brotherly, lol,  but I am not a film person, so @gemini's meta about choker shots in TFA and Romeo & Juliet way back in Jan/2016 was educational to me. .


@snufkin

film and literature begins and ends with only product published/released by Lucasfilm


Some well deserved serious shade...

Ironic he calls Reylo fanfiction, where does he think the fanfiction stemmed from? It's not like we actually saw something in the movie itself since it was released and those stories maybe, just maybe are based on real subtext ( and sometimes downright text ) in the movie.

I really like that Vincent Vendetta took the time to properly credit his sources. Our forum's podcast, Star Wars Connection, is credited in the video around minute 38. (The Visual Storytelling in the Force Awakens episode, in case you haven't seen it.)

My feeling is this Vendetta podcast is a great way of shining a spotlight on Reylo to the general Star Wars audience, which is necessary for it to become more legitimate and less of a taboo topic going forward, so I think overall this is a very positive development. And I think in general he did a thorough job of including major points that drive the Reylo engine, but I really wish he wouldn't have gone out of his way to portray Kylo Ren as a pathologically jealous homicidal maniac with the whole "he may have killed Han Solo because Rey was paying him too much attention" implication. It's just a bad joke, but still. Kylo gets vilified enough as is.

The thing about "Reylo began as fan fiction" is foolish and ignorant, but it sounds like no harm was intended. Still, it's important to give feedback. We are going to comment on his video and thank him for the mention of our podcast, while also providing some clarity in that regard. It will be one of a hundred thousand comments, but hopefully he'll see it, lol.

By the way, we are working on a "basics of Reylo" podcast episode and are thinking of acknowledging this Vincent Vendetta Reylo podcast - not to start drama, but as part of a larger commentary on fandom and Reylo. Any input from you would be welcome. Please PM me or any of the staff if you're interested in working on this episode, or if there is anything in particular that you think should be included.

I'm only part ways through the Vincent Vendetta podcast, but I agree it's definitely a good thing that he's discussing Reylo and I'm glad he's giving it a platform. It's nice to see someone actually discuss and consider it on its merits rather than the typical knee-jerk reactions and inarticulate arguments we tend to see from some people who just shout, "abuse!" or "incest!" without even considering the points.

I'm glad he was corrected about Reylo starting from fan fiction. Lol, what?

Darth Rowan wrote:I really like that Vincent Vendetta took the time to properly credit his sources. Our forum's podcast, Star Wars Connection, is credited in the video around minute 38. (The Visual Storytelling in the Force Awakens episode, in case you haven't seen it.)

My feeling is this Vendetta podcast is a great way of shining a spotlight on Reylo to the general Star Wars audience, which is necessary for it to become more legitimate and less of a taboo topic going forward, so I think overall this is a very positive development. And I think in general he did a thorough job of including major points that drive the Reylo engine, but I really wish he wouldn't have gone out of his way to portray Kylo Ren as a pathologically jealous homicidal maniac with the whole "he may have killed Han Solo because Rey was paying him too much attention" implication. It's just a bad joke, but still. Kylo gets vilified enough as is.

The thing about "Reylo began as fan fiction" is foolish and ignorant, but it sounds like no harm was intended. Still, it's important to give feedback. We are going to comment on his video and thank him for the mention of our podcast, while also providing some clarity in that regard. It will be one of a hundred thousand comments, but hopefully he'll see it, lol.

By the way, we are working on a "basics of Reylo" podcast episode and are thinking of acknowledging this Vincent Vendetta Reylo podcast - not to start drama, but as part of a larger commentary on fandom and Reylo. Any input from you would be welcome. Please PM me or any of the staff if you're interested in working on this episode, or if there is anything in particular that you think should be included.

Update:

*Please note that in the above exchange we weren't speaking on behalf of the Reylo community, fandom, or any individual members in this forum, only on behalf of the podcast project account.*

Thanks to everyone who has shared feedback and ideas about what to include in the Reylo 101 podcast. Keep it coming, you can email starwarsconnection09@gmail.com or PM any of the forum staff with your ideas, or let us know if you want to contribute directly.

I'm just glad he's learned to credit properly instead of claiming like he's the godfather of the theory. I think he knew there would be one mother of a backlash  if he did that to the reylo community. Can you imagine?  Good god.

I'm glad me and many others ranted at him when he stole my  theory. He's learned from his mistakes. He never apologised to me though. I was not rude to him.

I also think he lurks here and saw the rants from all of us when he stole that.

However I bet you he is not asking first before taking people's theories. You are supposed to ask first before you take any online content.

"Reylo began as fanfiction" is silly, but looking back I think it's fair to say that it maybe didn't start out with the amount of confidence it enjoys now (I'm speaking generally, I'm sure some fans were instantly convinced). I think it's what he meant to convey, and say that it later morphed into a well-backed theory, but yeah the choice of word is unfortunate.

Also, with the whole male/female divide, Reylo is in this weird space where, on one hand, it's widely mocked/ignored by the fanboys, yet at the same time sites like Marysue who in theory are meant to give a female perspective on all things geeky won't touch Reylo with a ten-foot-pole either, because it doesn't go with their progressive views.

Saracene wrote:"Reylo began as fanfiction" is silly, but looking back I think it's fair to say that it maybe didn't start out with the amount of confidence it enjoys now (I'm speaking generally, I'm sure some fans were instantly convinced). I think it's what he meant to convey, and say that it later morphed into a well-backed theory, but yeah the choice of word is unfortunate.

Also, with the whole male/female divide, Reylo is in this weird space where, on one hand, it's widely mocked/ignored by the fanboys, yet at the same time sites like Marysue who in theory are meant to give a female perspective on all things geeky won't touch Reylo with a ten-foot-pole either, because it doesn't go with their progressive views.

@Saracene

You brought up a good point on the whole female/male fans. I know that many vicious antis are female, for example.

I also know that many guys are part of the Reylo community, and have been part of it from the beginning. They might have been a minority, but they were always there.

So I'm not sure it's fair to blame the dichotomy on male fans versus female fans. And I don't really think it's fair to say that people give credibility to a video when it's a guy doing it. I think 90% of the credibility is in the fact that these youtubers have been doing this for a while and had already built a fanbase and credibility. That's the main difference.

Most people in this forum, for example, while having been SW fans for a long time, only now are active in the fandom. So we're the new kids on the block, so to say.

NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

AceofWands wrote:

Saracene wrote:"Reylo began as fanfiction" is silly, but looking back I think it's fair to say that it maybe didn't start out with the amount of confidence it enjoys now (I'm speaking generally, I'm sure some fans were instantly convinced). I think it's what he meant to convey, and say that it later morphed into a well-backed theory, but yeah the choice of word is unfortunate.

Also, with the whole male/female divide, Reylo is in this weird space where, on one hand, it's widely mocked/ignored by the fanboys, yet at the same time sites like Marysue who in theory are meant to give a female perspective on all things geeky won't touch Reylo with a ten-foot-pole either, because it doesn't go with their progressive views.

@Saracene

You brought up a good point on the whole female/male fans. I know that many vicious antis are female, for example.

I also know that many guys are part of the Reylo community, and have been part of it from the beginning. They might have been a minority, but they were always there.

So I'm not sure it's fair to blame the dichotomy on male fans versus female fans. And I don't really think it's fair to say that people give credibility to a video when it's a guy doing it. I think 90% of the credibility is in the fact that these youtubers have been doing this for a while and had already built a fanbase and credibility. That's the main difference.

Most people in this forum, for example, while having been SW fans for a long time, only now are active in the fandom. So we're the new kids on the block, so to say.

@AceofWands

I wish I was as optimistic as you , but exprience has taught me that male youtubers and bloggers are usually paid more attention and given more credit than female ones. I roll my eyes when I see it once again. This MV says what other people have been saying for months and he is respected and listened to when female fans who had great theories and wrote great meta were told their analyses were fanfiction. Nothing agaisnt fanfiction, mind you, but many fanboys use this term to disregard metas which are much better than anything they ever say.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but I am far from happy to see how much attention this guy is getting for discussing Reylo after so long and after the internet is full of Reylo metas and theories.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

@IoJovi

I was surprised that they were marketing maskless Kylo but thinking about it, it really does make sense. If they're planning on redeeming him/having him switch sides than it's better to let the public get used to seeing him without the mask on ASAP. I like that they're taking that risk and not relying on the popularity of the mask. It's a really gorgeous poster and the risk paid off, I haven't seen anyone not like it.

nemapasara wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

@IoJovi

I was surprised that they were marketing maskless Kylo but thinking about it, it really does make sense. If they're planning on redeeming him/having him switch sides than it's better to let the public get used to seeing him without the mask on ASAP. I like that they're taking that risk and not relying on the popularity of the mask. It's a really gorgeous poster and the risk paid off, I haven't seen anyone not like it.

@nemapasara

Definitely! I think, though, that after the somewhat deceptive marketing that went into TFA, many of us figured that they'd market Evil! Kylo for as long as they possibly could without giving away his upcoming redemption arc.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

nemapasara wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

@IoJovi

I was surprised that they were marketing maskless Kylo but thinking about it, it really does make sense. If they're planning on redeeming him/having him switch sides than it's better to let the public get used to seeing him without the mask on ASAP. I like that they're taking that risk and not relying on the popularity of the mask. It's a really gorgeous poster and the risk paid off, I haven't seen anyone not like it.

@nemapasara

Definitely! I think, though, that after the somewhat deceptive marketing that went into TFA, many of us figured that they'd market Evil! Kylo for as long as they possibly could without giving away his upcoming redemption arc.

@ISeeAnIsland

The good thing about this kind of "Mysterious, Unmasked Kylo" marketing is that it gives off a certain vibe subconsciously, but on the conscious level, it doesn't really give anything away - in fact many people seem to think he doesn't need the mask anymore because he's no longer lacking in confidence and is super-duper evil now.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

nemapasara wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:NTIP 179 is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting-8/

The Last Jedi teaser poster in theaters.
Episode VIII space horses named.
Some Star Wars: The Last Jedi merch information?
Pod car speculation
Characters we think we know are in the Han Solo film.
Pod People.

@Darth_Awakened

I'm listening to it right now. Jason was really surprised that unmasked Kylo was on the poster (similarly to how we were).

He does say that he's seen pictures of Kylo in the mask, but that it seems like he really doesn't wear it very much, which made sense to him because the costume looked much better without the mask. However, like us, he thought that they'd really be pushing Masked! Kylo as long as they could. He doesn't really speculate or go into the implications of him being marketed maskless, but I thought it was interesting that he called out the same thing that struck many of us.

@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

@IoJovi

I was surprised that they were marketing maskless Kylo but thinking about it, it really does make sense. If they're planning on redeeming him/having him switch sides than it's better to let the public get used to seeing him without the mask on ASAP. I like that they're taking that risk and not relying on the popularity of the mask. It's a really gorgeous poster and the risk paid off, I haven't seen anyone not like it.

@nemapasara

Definitely! I think, though, that after the somewhat deceptive marketing that went into TFA, many of us figured that they'd market Evil! Kylo for as long as they possibly could without giving away his upcoming redemption arc.

@ISeeAnIsland

The good thing about this kind of "Mysterious, Unmasked Kylo" marketing is that it gives off a certain vibe subconsciously, but on the conscious level, it doesn't really give anything away - in fact many people seem to think he doesn't need the mask anymore because he's no longer lacking in confidence and is super-duper evil now.

@Darth Dingbat

Yep. I've noticed the same thing across the internet - "Kylo doesn't need a mask anymore - because he's the pure EVIL himself"

IoJovi wrote:Honestly Unmasked!Kylo makes much more sense, as now the audience knows who he is, there's no longer a reason to hide him. The mask served two purposes in TFA. One - to protect his identity as the only known Skywalker child, and the son of Han and Leia. Second - to bring in a fresh looking costume that that was inspired by Vader's aesthetic.

Since many of us believe that Kylo's story is Anakin's in reverse, it'd make sense he wouldn't have the helmet in IX. The point is driven home even more when we see in the trailer his own mask in what I believe to be destroyed by him, early on in TLJ.

@IoJovi

I was definitely surprised by the amount of unmasked Kylo, but I think it's a wise decision not to try and push, "no really Kylo is now a proper evil masked bad*** this time around, for reals!" Only to have the same people who were disappointed with his unmasked self in TFA get disappointed again.