Rey's Lineage Discussion II

panki wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:Now here is an interesting question that just occurred to me after watching BATB of all things, why didn't Anakin's saber ever trigger any visions for Luke when he first touched it. And, why won't it trigger any visions for Luke in EP8?  Why did Anakin's saber only trigger a vision for Rey?

@spacebaby45678

Anakin's ligthsaber wouldn't trigger visions because Luke first got it in Obi-wan's hut on Tatooine, not a force strong location like a jedi temple....the Takodana castle was once a jedi temple and the scene of an ancient battle between jedi and sith....jedi temples are built on vergences....so the ligthsaber itself is a powerful relic, touched by a powerful force sensitive while standing on a vergence- the vision was inevitable.



To draw some sort of parallel, it took Ezra, Maul, a jedi holocron and a sith holocron to trigger Ezra's force vision in season 3 of Rebels.

@panki

That is a possible explanation

panki wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:Now here is an interesting question that just occurred to me after watching BATB of all things, why didn't Anakin's saber ever trigger any visions for Luke when he first touched it. And, why won't it trigger any visions for Luke in EP8?  Why did Anakin's saber only trigger a vision for Rey?

@spacebaby45678

Anakin's ligthsaber wouldn't trigger visions because Luke first got it in Obi-wan's hut on Tatooine, not a force strong location like a jedi temple....the Takodana castle was once a jedi temple and the scene of an ancient battle between jedi and sith....jedi temples are built on vergences....so the ligthsaber itself is a powerful relic, touched by a powerful force sensitive while standing on a vergence- the vision was inevitable.

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/822578591061995521

To draw some sort of parallel, it took Ezra, Maul, a jedi holocron and a sith holocron to trigger Ezra's force vision in season 3 of Rebels.

@panki

That actually makes a lot of sense and helps to put another nail in the coffin of Rey Skywalker.

I confess the only thing keeping me uneasy about the whole Rey Skywalker thing was the fact that Anakin's saber triggered visions on her. Now even that is explained.

Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins.  It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

@snufkin

Not only that, but Maz's cantina is also a former battle field. Said battle took place a thousand years before the events of SW. It was apparently one of the last great conflicts between the Jedi and the Sith before the thousand years of peace (and during which the Sith survived with the Rule of Two). Considering Maz is apparently a thousand years old... that's definitely not a coincidence.

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

@snufkin

Not only that, but Maz's cantina is also a former battle field that took place a thousand years before the events of SW. It was apparently one of the last great conflicts between the Jedi and the Sith before the thousand years of peace (and during which the Sith survived with the Rule of Two). Considering Maz is apparently a thousand years old... that's definitely not a coincidence.

@Irina de France

Oh wow, where did that info come from? I think that's where the part of me who was never ever going to be interested in RPGs even as a young nerd, doesn't have the attention span to go digging through all of the peripheral information Lucasfilm employs people to write I did know about how Endor is supposedly a park, but figured that's an in-joke because it was filmed in an actual park/nature preserve here in Northern California.

Anyways, that's interesting how out of all the places Han decides to take Rey and Finn to look for help, it's there. Makes an appropriate fix-up location for introducing his DS son to his LS protege.

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

@snufkin

Not only that, but Maz's cantina is also a former battle field that took place a thousand years before the events of SW. It was apparently one of the last great conflicts between the Jedi and the Sith before the thousand years of peace (and during which the Sith survived with the Rule of Two). Considering Maz is apparently a thousand years old... that's definitely not a coincidence.

@Irina de France

Oh wow, where did that info come from? I think that's where the part of me who was never ever going to be interested in RPGs even as a young nerd, doesn't have the attention span to go digging through all of the peripheral information Lucasfilm employs people to write I did know about how Endor is supposedly a park, but figured that's an in-joke because it was filmed in an actual park/nature preserve here in Northern California.

Anyways, that's interesting how out of all the places Han decides to take Rey and Finn to look for help, it's there. Makes an appropriate fix-up location for introducing his DS son to his LS protege.

@snufkin

I've found it on Wookieepedia when I wrote my Darth Bane meta! Here's the page right here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Takodana

But it's very symbolic, really. A great conflict between Jedi and Sith happened there, only for it to end on Jakku and have the Jedi seemingly victorious, but while the Sith are actually hiding. And with all the speculation that Rey and Kylo might start an order of an other kind of Force users...

Yep, very fishy.

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins.  It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

random coincidence,  but the official SW tumblr just posted this:


with a caption "That lightsaber says otherwise."

http://starwars.tumblr.com/post/158897850108/that-lightsaber-says-otherwise

haters are already dancing in their pit of angst

SkyStar wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins.  It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

random coincidence,  but the official SW tumblr just posted this:


with a caption "That lightsaber says otherwise."

http://starwars.tumblr.com/post/158897850108/that-lightsaber-says-otherwise

haters are already dancing in their pit of angst

@SkyStar

The Saber belongs to Luke. Interestingly in the TFA Dictionary, it labels Rey's weapons like this. Rey's Blaster... Rey's Quaterstaff.... Skywalkers Saber.

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

@snufkin

Not only that, but Maz's cantina is also a former battle field that took place a thousand years before the events of SW. It was apparently one of the last great conflicts between the Jedi and the Sith before the thousand years of peace (and during which the Sith survived with the Rule of Two). Considering Maz is apparently a thousand years old... that's definitely not a coincidence.

@Irina de France

Oh wow, where did that info come from? I think that's where the part of me who was never ever going to be interested in RPGs even as a young nerd, doesn't have the attention span to go digging through all of the peripheral information Lucasfilm employs people to write I did know about how Endor is supposedly a park, but figured that's an in-joke because it was filmed in an actual park/nature preserve here in Northern California.

Anyways, that's interesting how out of all the places Han decides to take Rey and Finn to look for help, it's there. Makes an appropriate fix-up location for introducing his DS son to his LS protege.

@snufkin

I've found it on Wookieepedia when I wrote my Darth Bane meta! Here's the page right here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Takodana

But it's very symbolic, really. A great conflict between Jedi and Sith happened there, only for it to end on Jakku and have the Jedi seemingly victorious, but while the Sith are actually hiding. And with all the speculation that Rey and Kylo might start an order of an other kind of Force users...

Yep, very fishy.

@Irina de France

Thanks to you, I'm now imagining that a future version of Rey and Kylo will have a version this duet

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:Not to mention it was more Ben's saber than Anakins. It calling to Rey is more foreboding of their connection than anything.

@Darth Dementor

The bit about Maz's bar formerly being a temple is interesting. Makes for an appropriate "First Date" location for those two.

@snufkin

Not only that, but Maz's cantina is also a former battle field that took place a thousand years before the events of SW. It was apparently one of the last great conflicts between the Jedi and the Sith before the thousand years of peace (and during which the Sith survived with the Rule of Two). Considering Maz is apparently a thousand years old... that's definitely not a coincidence.

@Irina de France

Oh wow, where did that info come from? I think that's where the part of me who was never ever going to be interested in RPGs even as a young nerd, doesn't have the attention span to go digging through all of the peripheral information Lucasfilm employs people to write I did know about how Endor is supposedly a park, but figured that's an in-joke because it was filmed in an actual park/nature preserve here in Northern California.

Anyways, that's interesting how out of all the places Han decides to take Rey and Finn to look for help, it's there. Makes an appropriate fix-up location for introducing his DS son to his LS protege.

@snufkin

I've found it on Wookieepedia when I wrote my Darth Bane meta! Here's the page right here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Takodana

But it's very symbolic, really. A great conflict between Jedi and Sith happened there, only for it to end on Jakku and have the Jedi seemingly victorious, but while the Sith are actually hiding. And with all the speculation that Rey and Kylo might start an order of an other kind of Force users...

Yep, very fishy.

@Irina de France

Thanks to you, I'm now imagining that a future version of Rey and Kylo will have a version this duet

@snufkin

I think we need a Star Wars musical...now! Disney/Lucas Film needs to contact Julie Taymor ASAP!

TheBastardofMandalore wrote:
@snufkin

I think we need a Star Wars musical...now! Disney/Lucas Film needs to contact Julie Taymor ASAP!

They've done it before!

snufkin wrote:

TheBastardofMandalore wrote:
@snufkin

I think we need a Star Wars musical...now! Disney/Lucas Film needs to contact Julie Taymor ASAP!

They've done it before!

@snufkin

LOL! I have not seen this yet, thanks!

@Darth Dementor @Helix

There is absolutely nothing wrong with rey being a lineage character. I do t think it takes anything away from her character either, in the main saga it most certainly is not out of place

Kylo ren is a fantastic character, with a lot of depth, he has internal and external struggles and he is 100 percent pure home grown legacy character. Him being a legacy is not lessening his character. Every single milestone in his life heavily revolves around his connection to legacy characters. Him being the last skywalker, him turning dark, him killing Han Solo. All the emotional stakes are raised because all of his emotional stakes are heavily connected to legacy and his familial connection to Luke, leia, darth Vader andHan Solo. If rey is a kenobi, his emotional stakes with her would be because of that connection. It would make a whole lot of sense. The rest of his connections are based off of strong ties to characters already seen in the saga, it would make more narrative and contextual sense because of this narrative pattern.

In Star Wars, especially the main saga. It matters heavily that he is connected to legacy. Rey being a legacy is not out of place or demeaning of her character it can be argued that she could have more depth if she was connected like he is. Her being random and no one does not strengthen her at all, in fact many complain about her being flat and not well developed. Because she's a blank slate. That argument that she's a no one is "better for her character" is tired and holds very little ground..because I will say again, kylo is one of the best written and well rounded characters in this entire franchise and he's 100 percent full home grown, ripe for the picking legacy. The audience care more about his redemption because he is the last skywalker. Not because he is the last random no one who killed a father no one knows about. Why would any depth and connection to the rest of the saga be so demeaning for poor rey, if it's not demeaning  for kylo?

IMO this whole debate is  harmful to her character even now without official revelations since a great portion of the fandom refers to her as "Luke's daughter" or "someone's possible granddaughter" instead of "Rey, the character I find interesting because...". When it comes to Rey that's what people ever talk about and that's not good. Kylo is a legacy, that's true, but I dare say what makes him interesting goes a bit further than this fact and has to do with the way the character is presented to us, his conflicted nature and complexity, the actor's performance, etc. He could have been Han and Leia's son and still be boring or unappealing. Him being the last surviving link to the Skywalker family raises the stakes and makes the audience invested in his redemption or at least in seeing what will happen to him. However, precisely because of this, Kylo being legacy is something more than just fulfilling a blood relation requirement, i.e. he is legacy because it is relevant to the story they want to tell. They could easily have turned things around, made Rey the legacy and Kylo an opposing outsider. Perhaps then a Finn/Rey story would have worked as well. But the story we actually have in this instance is completely different. If Kylo is related to the OT characters, it is because it matters to his development. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to what will Rey's arc gain from such relation except more rehash criticisms. Much like Finn undergoing any Force-related training and recycling Rey's story, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would repeat the same reveal we got in TFA with Rey and recycle Kylo's story. Leia was eventually revealed to be Luke's sister, but they never really focused on the emotional significance of that reveal for her and she ultimately chose a different path. Every character has a unique arc and perhaps in Rey's case they are trying to show how a scavenger who is seemingly a nobody can not only become a somebody, but change the course of galactic affairs and be the source of light and hope that will help save the remaining Skywalkers. I reckon that's a pretty powerful and original take if done right. I said "seemingly nobody" because there has to be reason why Rey has such a talent for using the Force, her backstory is important for sure, I just don't think it necessarily implies a blood relation to a legacy character and no piece of evidence so far has convinced me of that. Things can change, of course, but based on the setup and the limited information we have, what seems most logical is that her past has something to do with either Snoke/ FO and/or the mystery surrounding the Jedi temples/whatever Luke & Kylo were up to during their travels. For all we know, she could be a reincarnation of some Force goddess, the predecessor of all Jedi, who knows. There are so many options that are way more interesting than simply saying "she is the daughter/granddaughter of someone". Besides, anything other than Luke's daughter will be underwhelming for many, but you can't please everyone and that's not the point of a good story anyway.

@Saracene 100% agree it's not the fandom's fault, it is about the writing. It would be good to see greater complexity in Rey's character if they want to make her interesting though ultimately no one can substitute Kylo as my favorite and I mainly care about what will happen to him.

For those of you who want a SW musical: a high school made one for ANH back in the 90s.





But to be honest, I'd LOVE for a musical to be made based on the ST. And I will only be content if Hux gets to sing a parody of this before blowing up the Hosnian system.

@"Queen of the Knights

Queen of the Knights wrote:IMO this whole debate is  harmful to her character even now without official revelations since a great portion of the fandom refers to her as "Luke's daughter" or "someone's possible granddaughter" instead of "Rey, the character I find interesting because...". When it comes to Rey that's what people ever talk about and that's not good.

I completely agree with this. It's actually one of the reasons I don't think they should have left their protagonist a blank like they did in TFA. I'll find out if I still feel that way when I watch TLJ. It bother's me also how much people will just declare that Rey is "Luke's daughter" as though a) that's all she is and all that matters of who she is; and b) it's a certainty and no other possibility is worth considering.

If Kylo is related to the OT characters, it is because it matters to his development. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to what will Rey's arc gain from such relation except more rehash criticisms. Much like Finn undergoing any Force-related training and recycling Rey's story, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would repeat the same reveal we got in TFA with Rey and recycle Kylo's story.

The bolded is probably in large part why I find Rey Skywalker so empty. Like, if someone says "and imagine finding out Darth Vader is your grandfather" when talking about Rey, it makes me go, "yeah, we already have a character who found that out and in TLJ we'll see how that affected his turn to the dark side." Like, seriously.

And you make a good point about what would Rey's arc gain... when I ponder this with Rey Kenobi I can see a gain in the story because Anakin and Obi-Wan were like brothers and the rift in their relationship contributed to current events. It also represented a problem, imo, in the teachings of the Jedi overall. You could say (from a certain point of view) that the Jedi teachings themselves failed Anakin. And Obi-Wan himself said, "I have failed you Anakin" in ROTS. This rift between Sith and Jedi I think may well be central to the ST. Revelations about it may have contributed to Ben/Kylo's fall.

So it is poetic if Rey Kenobi arrives to repair this rift. The problem is that how could that come to matter to Rey herself? If she discovers that Obi-Wan was her grandfather or great-grandfather, and we go with the Obi-Wan + Satine route, then Obi-Wan's descendents would be tied up in Mandalorian drama and what does that have to do with this story???

Irina de France wrote:For those of you who want a SW musical: a high school made one for ANH back in the 90s.





But to be honest, I'd LOVE for a musical to be made based on the ST. And I will only be content if Hux gets to sing a parody of this before blowing up the Hosnian system.

@Irina de France

It's a Disney property and we already know that they love to turn their properties into both touring musicals and ice skating extravaganzas. Rey's introduction is custom made for some heart tugging number about being a lonely scavenger hungry for food and belonging/love with Unkar Plutt scowling at her. Put it in the key of Food Glorious Food. And you know Kylo would have a solo (har har) along the lines of My Favorite Things. #1 being pretty scavenger girls from backwater planets of no consequence.

@snufkin Ha! I mean, a Broadway musical could totally work, lol. Rey could totally get a "I Want" song at the beginning considering every Disney leading lady/princess has one.

Rey and Kylo's first duet (before the big sweeping romantic one, lol) could be something like this:



Also, I want Okieriete Onaodowan as Finn.

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:For those of you who want a SW musical: a high school made one for ANH back in the 90s.





But to be honest, I'd LOVE for a musical to be made based on the ST. And I will only be content if Hux gets to sing a parody of this before blowing up the Hosnian system.

@Irina de France

It's a Disney property and we already know that they love to turn their properties into both touring musicals and ice skating extravaganzas. Rey's introduction is custom made for some heart tugging number about being a lonely scavenger hungry for food and belonging/love with Unkar Plutt scowling at her. Put it in the key of Food Glorious Food. And you know Kylo would have a solo (har har) along the lines of My Favorite Things. #1 being pretty scavenger girls from backwater planets of no consequence.

@snufkin

Love this!

Acritiqua wrote:@"Queen of the Knights

Queen of the Knights wrote:IMO this whole debate is  harmful to her character even now without official revelations since a great portion of the fandom refers to her as "Luke's daughter" or "someone's possible granddaughter" instead of "Rey, the character I find interesting because...". When it comes to Rey that's what people ever talk about and that's not good.

I completely agree with this. It's actually one of the reasons I don't think they should have left their protagonist a blank like they did in TFA. I'll find out if I still feel that way when I watch TLJ. It bother's me also how much people will just declare that Rey is "Luke's daughter" as though a) that's all she is and all that matters of who she is; and b) it's a certainty and no other possibility is worth considering.

If Kylo is related to the OT characters, it is because it matters to his development. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to what will Rey's arc gain from such relation except more rehash criticisms. Much like Finn undergoing any Force-related training and recycling Rey's story, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would repeat the same reveal we got in TFA with Rey and recycle Kylo's story.

The bolded is probably in large part why I find Rey Skywalker so empty. Like, if someone says "and imagine finding out Darth Vader is your grandfather" when talking about Rey, it makes me go, "yeah, we already have a character who found that out and in TLJ we'll see how that affected his turn to the dark side." Like, seriously.

And you make a good point about what would Rey's arc gain... when I ponder this with Rey Kenobi I can see a gain in the story because Anakin and Obi-Wan were like brothers and the rift in their relationship contributed to current events. It also represented a problem, imo, in the teachings of the Jedi overall. You could say (from a certain point of view) that the Jedi teachings themselves failed Anakin. And Obi-Wan himself said, "I have failed you Anakin" in ROTS. This rift between Sith and Jedi I think may well be central to the ST. Revelations about it may have contributed to Ben/Kylo's fall.

So it is poetic if Rey Kenobi arrives to repair this rift. The problem is that how could that come to matter to Rey herself? If she discovers that Obi-Wan was her grandfather or great-grandfather, and we go with the Obi-Wan + Satine route, then Obi-Wan's descendents would be tied up in Mandalorian drama and what does that have to do with this story???

@Acritiqua

I will say one thing, the Mandalorian drama is the Star Wars universe expanding escape hatch George Lucas was looking for. It is the universe expanding plot line that some Rey Randoms advocates are looking for. The Mandalorian system encompasses 1,500 planets, and they don't side with the Jedi or the Sith, the Mando's right now are the third way.

I'm pro Rey Random and one of the things that interest me in this outcome is the fact that we'd have HUNDREDS of new planets and groups to explore in the new EU. It's the same reason I'm sympathetic to Mandalorian origins for Rey.

Irina de France wrote:@snufkin Ha! I mean, a Broadway musical could totally work, lol. Rey could totally get a "I Want" song at the beginning considering every Disney leading lady/princess has one.

Rey and Kylo's first duet (before the big sweeping romantic one, lol) could be something like this:



Also, I want Okieriete Onaodowan as Finn.

@Irina de France

Other than it being a romantic duet, that could be Kylo and Hux jockeying for Snoke's attention. You know at some point in that song, Hux would chime in about how he can execute an invasion and capture precious intel without getting sidetracked by sneaking a girl back on base and into his quarters.

@TheBastardofMandalore - it's Disney, so you know somewhere in a conference room they've already had a marketing meeting about Star Wars on Ice (score by Lin-Manual Miranda). Although at least TFA version of Kylo would face plant because that outfit and mask aren't conducive to skating.

I don't know how Mandalore fits into the story. The one thing that could work is that scene with Kylo and the KOR destroying that clan... if they were Mandalorian and connected to Rey.

Acritiqua wrote:@"Queen of the Knights

Queen of the Knights wrote:IMO this whole debate is  harmful to her character even now without official revelations since a great portion of the fandom refers to her as "Luke's daughter" or "someone's possible granddaughter" instead of "Rey, the character I find interesting because...". When it comes to Rey that's what people ever talk about and that's not good.

I completely agree with this. It's actually one of the reasons I don't think they should have left their protagonist a blank like they did in TFA. I'll find out if I still feel that way when I watch TLJ. It bother's me also how much people will just declare that Rey is "Luke's daughter" as though a) that's all she is and all that matters of who she is; and b) it's a certainty and no other possibility is worth considering.

If Kylo is related to the OT characters, it is because it matters to his development. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to what will Rey's arc gain from such relation except more rehash criticisms. Much like Finn undergoing any Force-related training and recycling Rey's story, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would repeat the same reveal we got in TFA with Rey and recycle Kylo's story.

The bolded is probably in large part why I find Rey Skywalker so empty. Like, if someone says "and imagine finding out Darth Vader is your grandfather" when talking about Rey, it makes me go, "yeah, we already have a character who found that out and in TLJ we'll see how that affected his turn to the dark side." Like, seriously.

And you make a good point about what would Rey's arc gain... when I ponder this with Rey Kenobi I can see a gain in the story because Anakin and Obi-Wan were like brothers and the rift in their relationship contributed to current events. It also represented a problem, imo, in the teachings of the Jedi overall. You could say (from a certain point of view) that the Jedi teachings themselves failed Anakin. And Obi-Wan himself said, "I have failed you Anakin" in ROTS. This rift between Sith and Jedi I think may well be central to the ST. Revelations about it may have contributed to Ben/Kylo's fall.

So it is poetic if Rey Kenobi arrives to repair this rift. The problem is that how could that come to matter to Rey herself? If she discovers that Obi-Wan was her grandfather or great-grandfather, and we go with the Obi-Wan + Satine route, then Obi-Wan's descendents would be tied up in Mandalorian drama and what does that have to do with this story???

@

The argument that kylo is connected to to legacy and it fits because of his current connection to characters, it does not exclude rey in the slightest.

Her connection with Luke? Getting him on the quest

Connection with leya? Her only hope

Connection with kylo? Saving the descendent of Vader and having a profound bond

All kenobi. All of it. She's just as currently connected to current characters as kylo is.

It actually expands stuff if she is a mandalorian. I think they would happily delve into mando territory.

Also just because it's not clear what being a kenobi means for rey yet (although I would argue it has shown us subtlety) doesn't mean it won't become clear and work later. I think it will fit like a puzzle piece.

It's the same for reylo. A bunch/majority do not see this and also think it is not a move forward for a female character to end up with him. People also think tfa does not set reylo up.

Just because people can't clearly see stuff yet doesn't mean it's not there and it doesn't mean it won't eventually fit with a story