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CienaRee wrote:

AceofWands wrote:
@CienaRee

Yeah, but saying that he doesn't want to hurt her and that he's going to go as easy as her as he can... It just, has also such an obvious double meaning. I'm actually glad they cut it.

I wouldn't want the touching either cause he's tied and can't back away.

@AceofWands

That's true but I'm pretty sure the writers didn't intend for Kylot o be making seual advances towards Rey.He might be subconciously feeling attracted to her but I don't think for a second that their intention was for the fans to pereceive Kylo as someone who's threatening to abuse/rape Rey.I think we're meant to believe that he's talking about the map but his compassion for her is leading him to treat her differently than he did Poe.

@CienaRee

Oh yes. The whole point of that scene is to make the comparison to Poe's interrogation and to realize how easy he is going on Rey. The intention isn't to show Kylo as a sexual predator, even if there is sexual subtext present in that scene. Had he actually touched her, it may have come across that way, and the point that Rey had it so much easier would have been lost.

I'm glad they shot the scene the way they did.

AceofWands wrote:
@CienaRee

Yeah, but saying that he doesn't want to hurt her and that he's going to go as easy as her as he can... It just, has also such an obvious double meaning. I'm actually glad they cut it.

I wouldn't want the touching either cause he's tied and can't back away.

@AceofWands

From what I recall, in the novelization, he did release her restraints before he started touching her face in the interrogation scene. So, at least she isn't tied down when he's doing it.

That said, the unwanted touching does come across as a bit creepy...it's the kind of thing you expect a Bond villain to do to James Bond's love interest of the moment to raise the stakes of the situation before James swoops in and rescues her. So, I'm glad they cut that.

And knowing that they shot that interrogation scene, like, 50 different times, I bet that they shot a whole lot of variations--face touching, no face touching, restraints, no restraints, etc.

With the version that they ended up with, Kylo comes across more as a vaguely creepy, doesn't-understand-personal-boundaries/has-no-social-skills type of guy, rather than a maliciously creepy trying-to-intimidate-the-heroine type of guy. If they'd gone with the latter, Reylo would be a much harder sell.

tintarelladiluna wrote:

vaderito wrote:English version is canon. if they wanted to say "I feel your fear" or version of it, pr just "don't be afraid" they would say so. But this ambiguous line that launched 1000 fics is something else. They wanted to sound like a connection.

@vaderito

I agree and I don't have any doubt about that. It happened the same with The Last Jedi that turned out to be Gli ultimi Jedi I wonder when they'll correct it.

I read this old meta on tumblr not long ago on the same topic and I loved it, though you probably already know it: http://kristinships.tumblr.com/post/148141617546/loneliness-and-empathy
A simple yet logical and fascinating explanation

@tintarelladiluna

My goodness the ending paragraphs hit me like a ton of sodding bricks:  

"He feels it too. He feels everything, and such a moment would be indeed rare for someone as guarded as he. There is something crackling, weaving between them. Two sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang. Their hardships are their own, yet the experiences are identical. Quite the oxymoron, but that’s the beautiful balance they bring to each other.

One swelters under the desert sun while the other freezes on an icy world, yet through time and space, they have felt the same exact loneliness that defines them both."

Really moving when phrased in that fashion!

Darth Dementor wrote:


My goodness the ending paragraphs hit me like a ton of sodding bricks:  "He feels it too. He feels everything, and such a moment would be indeed rare for someone as guarded as he. There is something crackling, weaving between them. Two sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang. Their hardships are their own, yet the experiences are identical. Quite the oxymoron, but that’s the beautiful balance they bring to each other.

One swelters under the desert sun while the other freezes on an icy world, yet through time and space, they have felt the same exact loneliness that defines them both."

Really moving when phrased in that fashion!

@Darth Dementor

Beautiful! 

Adam's charity liked a Reylo tweet. Kind of funny.

https://twitter.com/YYoneva/status/875439370731491328

Millicent the Cat wrote:Adam's charity liked a Reylo tweet. Kind of funny.

https://twitter.com/YYoneva/status/875439370731491328

@Millicent the Cat

Is that Twitter account still running? Embarrassing. I've blocked the troll a long time ago

For those still concerned about PlotGate, I wanted to bring this one back up to the top.




As much as I love Rian and I'm absolutely certain TLJ will be at the top of its game in terms of story, I think that the whole spiel about we're making up the story as we go along is complete bs. It's a marketing tool designed excite the audience into thinking anything can happen (in theory, anyways.). While I think Rian had liberties on ways he could get to specific plot points, those plot points still had to exist ahead of time.

I also wonder, and this is just me thinking out loud so bear with me, if this isn't partly created to ease the disappointment of the Reywalker crowd? Let's face it, most the GA still thinks Rey is Luke's even though that theory is deader than a door nail at this point. If this is the case, it still doesn't make it any better, but it is what it is, I guess.

My second thought is that Reylo was beginning to very much gain traction in more mainstream corners of the fandom, especially in the last month leading up to RomanceGate. I really do wonder if this was some kind of tactic to counter it from being discussed further. I honestly wouldn't put it past Disney to do this. Tin foil hat time - heck, the idea may not have even come from Rian; it could have come directly from Disney and TPTB wanted to use Rian as their mouth piece.

Anyways, enough rambling...

I think I should post this here. Someone asked Matt Martin about Kylo.

Spoiler:

@Moonlight13 Matt is the new Pablo

I love that with Kylo, you never really run out of things to talk about. Comparing his "level" of evil to other characters is a pretty shallow level of dicsussion imo, but having the conversation at all still shows how hard it is to pin him down, which I think is exactly what the creators were going for.

I'm just rooting so hard for Kylo to blow his haters away in the next movie and truly own Leia's description of him before he was born. He DOES "deserve" to be her child, but that side of him hasn't exactly come out yet.

adamdrivershair wrote:@Moonlight13 Matt is the new Pablo

I love that with Kylo, you never really run out of things to talk about. Comparing his "level" of evil to other characters is a pretty shallow level of dicsussion imo, but having the conversation at all still shows how hard it is to pin him down, which I think is exactly what the creators were going for.

I'm just rooting so hard for Kylo to blow his haters away in the next movie and truly own Leia's description of him before he was born. He DOES "deserve" to be her child, but that side of him hasn't exactly come out yet.

@adamdrivershair
I totally agree.  

adamdrivershair wrote:@Moonlight13 Matt is the new Pablo

I love that with Kylo, you never really run out of things to talk about. Comparing his "level" of evil to other characters is a pretty shallow level of dicsussion imo, but having the conversation at all still shows how hard it is to pin him down, which I think is exactly what the creators were going for.

I'm just rooting so hard for Kylo to blow his haters away in the next movie and truly own Leia's description of him before he was born. He DOES "deserve" to be her child, but that side of him hasn't exactly come out yet.

@adamdrivershair

That exchange was getting awkwardly uncomfortable after awhile. You could tell Matt was getting bit frazzled in not trying to give too much away. He kept asking the poster what they were getting at, when clearly they just wanted Matt to basically confirm Kylo's redemption arc. The fact he says we have two more movies to go is pretty obvious where this is going....

But yeah that's such a Pabloesque answer right there.

@Moonlight13

I think anyone can easily get around questions about how evil Kylo is because "Kylo" is kind of Ben's evil persona right? Kylo=evil, Ben=the good inside. Hence "The duality of man." Same thing with Vader/Anakin. Palpatine was given the senator persona before he was the Emperor, but that persona was also (secretly) evil, so redemption never seemed like an option for him.
I don't know what redemption will look like for Ben, but it will definitely be a journey starting in TLJ. Assuming Ben lives on, somehow he will have to convince the audience that he is capable of good from then on out, probably through a time jump at the end of 9?

I actually liked the conversation - even though it became awkward af after some questions.

I don't think there's any question that Kylo fits the criteria for "evil". His whole character is a deliberate construction of tropes related to evilness: black outfit, mask, mechanical voice, red burning lightsaber, killing people to prove authority (Jakku village, "kill them all"), kidnapping pretty girls in forests, reading people's mind without their consent etc. What the story needs to do in The Last Jedi and Episode IX is explore why Kylo sucks at being a villain, why he tries so hard to invoke evilness and is terrible at it (feeling regret after killing Han, feeling compassion for Rey, letting Finn go, disobeying his master, feeling the pull to the light).

For me, his "redemption" is not about him becoming a good guy or even a hero. Is about exploring his inner turmoil to explain why he fails so much at villainy, thus proving that the evil path is not for him.

Piper Maru wrote:For me, his "redemption" is not about him becoming a good guy or even a hero. Is about exploring his inner turmoil to explain why he fails so much at villainy, thus proving that the evil path is not for him.

@Piper Maru

For all of the standard "he should get eviler because Star Wars did redemption before and it's boring" arguments, it's not the binary good/bad type of scenario. Or that he suddenly gets religion and goes in an equally opposite direction with the same amount of fervor. Really curious if whatever background scenario shown for him about whatever freaked out his parents, got him sent to Luke, and resulted in the rift/fall is about him equally flailing at trying to be a certain way. Ideally where the story goes is him figuring this out and finding his own unique path.

Interesting conversation, but I don't understand the person's questions beyond trying to confirm or disprove a redemption arc, which story group is not going to do. 

Yes, Kylo is choosing to be evil right now. But that's the thing about fairy tales and other morality tales for children. If you show any semblance of remorse, eventual redemption is a done deal. I can think of several in which varying levels of evil characters redeem themselves. Bearskin is punished with the appearance of a monster because he made a deal with the devil - he serves out his time successfully, his monster appearance falls away revealing a handsome young soldier, and he and the girl who was kind and compassionate to him live happily ever after. Very simple moral to that one - when you mess with the devil (evil), you become monstrous and there's hell to pay before you can come back to society. In another, a queen is blasphemous and refuses to repent even though she is punished with all the children she births dying; once she finally repents all the children are restored. Again, very simple moral. Swallow your pride and come back to goodness and you will gain what you lost due to your wickedness.

On the other hand, characters who are unrepentantly and delightfully evil are punished harshly. They're the ones who get their eyes pecked out or dance to death on hot coals. That translates to characters like Palpatine, Jabba, Snoke, and Hux.

It really isn't a question of whether Kylo is evil. He is behaving as an evil person, whether he thinks he is or not. He's choosing to embrace the dark side and attempt to shut out the light. I think, though, that a distinction has to be made between the label of an evil person and evil behavior, and that's where philosophically a lot of people differ. Like, if you come from a yogic, Buddhist, or more moderate/liberal Christian tradition, the concept is essentially that you were born or created inherently good, full of light, but you take on layers of darkness with your choices or sinful behavior. Or because of Adam and Eve, we are good creations who were born into sin but can be redeemed. Hence baptism washing away the layers of sin and being a symbolic rebirth into the light of God. Or meditating/practicing mindfulness so that you train yourself to let go of unhealthy thoughts and behaviors. In Buddhism they use the analogy of a golden Buddha statue that had been covered by centuries of dirt and grime, but little by little archaeologists were able to chip away at the layers until finally the gold statue shone through.

Same with Ben. We're told in Aftermath: Life Debt that he's a particularly bright light in his mother's womb, but from the beginning the darkness has been trying to influence him. From my perspective, there's a very clear morality tale going on with him in which he represents every member of the audience. We're all tempted by darkness, we all make terrible choices at some point or another, and we all find ourselves in need of the compassion that facilitates the return of the prodigal son. That's Ben Solo in a nutshell.

Going by everything we know so far, the teaser trailer, spoilers, etc. I think most of us don't expect Kylo to make a 180 and become the embodiment of good. The theme for TLJ is balance after all. So if the ST was about Anakin falling to the dark side with the dark side prevailing at the end of ROTS and the OT was about Luke resisting the dark side with Vader/Anakin coming back to the light with the light side winning, then, hopefully the ST should be about the rejection of both the light side and the dark side. I think it would be great to show that Ben tried to walk the path of a righteous Jedi like his uncle, but also failed in the same ways that he's failing at being on the dark side. I agree with @snufkin that Kylo/Ben will have to come to terms with who he is, that he doesn't have to adhere to either side and can instead be his own person and choose his own path.  

Rey's part in this will be the revelation of what really happened with Ben and how the current constructs of the light side and the dark side are archaic. She'll see how it's destroyed this whole family for generations, especially Ben/Kylo's life and will reject being defined by it. She's wanted to have a family and feel a belonging her whole life, but when it comes down to it she realizes that she's already found belonging with Finn, Ben/Kylo, Chewie etc.  She'll have come to terms with who she is and her own path, which is no longer defined by who her parents are and waiting for her "real life" to begin. I could even see Snoke offering her information on who her parents were and what happened to them and she declines deciding it doesn't matter anymore.  

And wouldn't all this be extremely symbolic of Star Wars in pop culture? Star Wars has always been coming of age stories. Ben/Kylo is a young man dwarfed by the shadows of his family's legacies. Rey is a young women longing for a family, a legacy in some ways. In the same way that the ST has the OT and PT looming over it, both of which are tied closely to different generations of Star Wars fans.

Maybe Ben as as an adolescent tried to be like Han, but failed? Then got sent to Luke and tried to be a Jedi, but failed? Now apart of the First Order he tried to be like his grandfather Darth Vader and still fails. In the end he realizes he doesn't have to be like any of them, he can do his own thing and let go of trying to carry on this massive legacy that each of these different men in his life left behind. In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

Tex wrote:In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

I think that's what a lot of what you'd call traditionalist fans, be it that they were fans of the OT, PT, the EU etc, really have a hard time understanding about the ST. That while it's tied in and consistent with the rest of the franchise and world building that came before it, it's its own unique thing and coming of age story for those characters and that specific story.

snufkin wrote:

Tex wrote:In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

I think that's what a lot of what you'd call traditionalist fans, be it that they were fans of the OT, PT, the EU etc, really have a hard time understanding about the ST. That while it's tied in and consistent with the rest of the franchise and world building that came before it, it's its own unique thing and coming of age story for those characters and that specific story.

@snufkin

Exactly! And that's why I have a hard time understanding how more traditionalist fans think it's going to follow all the old rules, just for the sheer practical reason that GL isn't there anymore, different people are working on it and those new people will want their own imprint on it. New teams/blood/people/leadership always bring changes.

@SoloSideCousin - I get the impression that's some of the resentment, either that it's no longer GL or the OT purists who felt betrayed by the PT are hoping that it is just 100% fidelity to the original because they're somehow owed. The whole business of it being tied in with some peoples' core identities/childhood nostalgia is where you get these weirdly proprietary attitudes about what constitutes a supposed "true fan."

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Tex wrote:In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

I think that's what a lot of what you'd call traditionalist fans, be it that they were fans of the OT, PT, the EU etc, really have a hard time understanding about the ST. That while it's tied in and consistent with the rest of the franchise and world building that came before it, it's its own unique thing and coming of age story for those characters and that specific story.

@snufkin

Exactly! And that's why I have a hard time understanding how more traditionalist fans think it's going to follow all the old rules, just for the sheer practical reason that GL isn't there anymore, different people are working on it and those new people will want their own imprint on it. New teams/blood/people/leadership always bring changes.

@SoloSideCousin

This is why I lean toward them going with Rey Nobody in the films. Even though I think her being a Kenobi would be interesting. There are so many fans, especially the traditionalist fans that are hung up on her parentage. Is she Luke's? Is she a Solo? Is she a Kenobi? Is she related to Palpatine? The list goes on. If Rey gets offered the chance to know who her family was/is and says, "No thanks, I don't care to know", that would be such a F@$# YOU to all those fans, in a get over it already it doesn't matter sort of way. Who Rey's parents are does not define, inform or shape her character. It does not matter to this story!

snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - I get the impression that's some of the resentment, either that it's no longer GL or the OT purists who felt betrayed by the PT are hoping that it is just 100% fidelity to the original because they're somehow owed. The whole business of it being tied in with some peoples' core identities/childhood nostalgia is where you get these weirdly proprietary attitudes about what constitutes a supposed "true fan."

@snufkin

Ugh. I hate "true fan" ranters. I like the "old" Star Wars, I like the new Star Wars, and most of the in between (cough, Jar Jar).

I think that's why people keep mistaking Kylo for a Sith. In the past, if you were on the dark side and fought the heroes, you were a Sith. But Kylo and Rey are just stand-ins for the traditional Sith/Jedi roles, and from here on, things will go in a different direction. I love it And yeah, not-a-Skywalker main character adds interest for me as well.

@Tex if they keep insisting on no time jump than her belonging with people she barely knows is going to be a problem. ESB took a time jump from ANH, so it opened with some relationships developed off screen (hanleia feelings for each other, for example). But if the whole ST takes place within a week or few weeks, that's not gonna be enough for giving Rey a real motivation. Like, right now, she's totally removed from the Resistance, so why would she care about them? They are nothing to her. She spent only 2 days in Finn's company. Etc. That's all really underdeveloped af.

That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

Helix wrote:That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

@Helix

And they tend to hate on Kylo without realizing how much he resembles them. "I'm Darth Vader's grandson and all of the legacy items are mine by birthright. That lightsaber - it belongs to me!"

Millicent the Cat wrote:

Helix wrote:That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

@Helix

And they tend to hate on Kylo without realizing how much he resembles them. "I'm Darth Vader's grandson and all of the legacy items are mine by birthright. That lightsaber - it belongs to me!"

@Millicent the Cat

OMG this is so accurate!