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Millicent the Cat wrote:

Helix wrote:That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

@Helix

And they tend to hate on Kylo without realizing how much he resembles them. "I'm Darth Vader's grandson and all of the legacy items are mine by birthright. That lightsaber - it belongs to me!"

@Millicent the Cat

Hence this meme:

vaderito wrote:@Tex if they keep insisting on no time jump than her belonging with people she barely knows is going to be a problem. ESB took a time jump from ANH, so it opened with some relationships developed off screen (hanleia feelings for each other, for example). But if the whole ST takes place within a week or few weeks, that's not gonna be enough for giving Rey a real motivation. Like, right now, she's totally removed from the Resistance, so why would she care about them? They are nothing to her. She spent only 2 days in Finn's company. Etc. That's all really underdeveloped af.

@vaderito

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. To play devils advocate here, let me start by asking this. Are we 100% certain that there won't be any time jumps in TLJ, between VIII and IX or in IX?

If the answer is yes, then, TPTB will need to stress that Rey hasn't found a belonging yet, but that Maz was right all along, that the belonging she was seeking wasn't behind, but was always ahead. Rey would come to a revelation that she could have a belonging with people like Finn, Kylo/Ben, Luke, Chewie etc. That instead of being inactive and static in her own life, waiting for her family to show up she instead needed to be proactive and leave Jakku and search out a new life and find belonging on her own. So her motivation would be to stop being a bystander in her own life and make tough choices. Like throwing away the dream of ever knowing who or where she came from. Cause guess what, they are never coming back.

If the answer is no, then, TPTB will need to give Rey and other characters more time to develop their relationships. If there is a time jump at the beginning/middle of TLJ while she's on Ach-Too, then she could become close to Kylo, Chewie, Luke or R2. If there is a time jump at the the end of TLJ she might end up back with Finn and the Resistance. If there is a time jump between TLJ and IX then that could develop multiple relationships. There are a lot of "what ifs".

Personally, I don't think that Rey needs to or should feel a belonging to the Resistance cause. Continuing the theme of balance I think she'll also reject both sides of the war. Seeing that both are not completely good or evil. Also I think it's unfair to ask a fairy tale inspired film or an adventure film in general to adhere to the constraints of reality when it comes to the importance of relationships. Rey was very suddenly forced from a rote lifestyle into a crazy adventure that pushed her well outside of her comfort zone. Who says that these extreme conditions didn't cause her to form a strong connection/relationship with Finn in the matter of a few hours/days? Kylo says she was already starting to see Han like a father figure. So I say, yes, you should demand a film to give you good character development and dynamics, but you also have to suspend a little disbelief as well. I mean this is a story about space wizards, space ships and inter-galactic warfare after all.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

Millicent the Cat wrote:

Helix wrote:That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

@Helix

And they tend to hate on Kylo without realizing how much he resembles them. "I'm Darth Vader's grandson and all of the legacy items are mine by birthright. That lightsaber - it belongs to me!"

@Millicent the Cat

Hence this meme:

@Cowgirlsamurai

I think somebody from the production or was it Pablo actually did mention Kylo's deliberate resemblance to the hard core entitled fans.

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@"Darth Awakened"

He even throws fits like them too  

I remember reading a hardcore hateful review of TFA (maybe on IMDB) where the person kept complaining about Anakin's saber being tossed around by all these new characters. LOL, sorry that bothers you so much, buddy.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@"Darth Awakened"

He even throws fits like them too  

I remember reading a hardcore hateful review of TFA (maybe on IMDB) where the person kept complaining about Anakin's saber being tossed around by all these new characters. LOL, sorry that bothers you so much, buddy.

@Cowgirlsamurai

'Eww, these newbies are getting their COOTIES on my precious saber!'

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

Millicent the Cat wrote:

Helix wrote:That's 100% how the old fans think. 'I've been watching these movies, buying the toys, reading the books since the series started so it should all solely appeal to me'. Even the toylines, aimed at kids have to appeal to them because they bough the toys as kids in the 70's. It's fanboy entitlement.

@Helix

And they tend to hate on Kylo without realizing how much he resembles them. "I'm Darth Vader's grandson and all of the legacy items are mine by birthright. That lightsaber - it belongs to me!"

@Millicent the Cat

Hence this meme:

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's why they should be rooting for him to "get the girl" at the end.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - I get the impression that's some of the resentment, either that it's no longer GL or the OT purists who felt betrayed by the PT are hoping that it is just 100% fidelity to the original because they're somehow owed. The whole business of it being tied in with some peoples' core identities/childhood nostalgia is where you get these weirdly proprietary attitudes about what constitutes a supposed "true fan."

@snufkin

Ugh. I hate "true fan" ranters. I like the "old" Star Wars, I like the new Star Wars, and most of the in between (cough, Jar Jar).

I think that's why people keep mistaking Kylo for a Sith. In the past, if you were on the dark side and fought the heroes, you were a Sith. But Kylo and Rey are just stand-ins for the traditional Sith/Jedi roles, and from here on, things will go in a different direction. I love it And yeah, not-a-Skywalker main character adds interest for me as well.

@Cowgirlsamurai

I can guarantee you that those people were equally as unfriendly and humorless towards other fans back in the day. There's really no difference between them and the music snobs who work at the record store in High Fidelity.

And that's part of what's so funny about the whole "I can show you the ways of the Force." line. He probably would've lectured Rey about the superiority of vinyl over digital if she hadn't escaped.

snufkin wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - I get the impression that's some of the resentment, either that it's no longer GL or the OT purists who felt betrayed by the PT are hoping that it is just 100% fidelity to the original because they're somehow owed. The whole business of it being tied in with some peoples' core identities/childhood nostalgia is where you get these weirdly proprietary attitudes about what constitutes a supposed "true fan."

@snufkin

Ugh. I hate "true fan" ranters. I like the "old" Star Wars, I like the new Star Wars, and most of the in between (cough, Jar Jar).

I think that's why people keep mistaking Kylo for a Sith. In the past, if you were on the dark side and fought the heroes, you were a Sith. But Kylo and Rey are just stand-ins for the traditional Sith/Jedi roles, and from here on, things will go in a different direction. I love it And yeah, not-a-Skywalker main character adds interest for me as well.

@Cowgirlsamurai

I can guarantee you that those people were equally as unfriendly and humorless towards other fans back in the day. There's really no difference between them and the music snobs who work at the record store in High Fidelity.

And that's part of what's so funny about the whole "I can show you the ways of the Force." line. He probably would've lectured Rey about the superiority of vinyl over digital if she hadn't escaped.

@snufkin
That part of his characterization has been, ironically, picked up on by people all over the fandom. Hence accounts like EmoKyloRen or him actually playing a vinyl record during Bad Lip Reading. He's that guy. Problem is a lot of fans fail to see he's some aspect of them!

I enjoyed reading that twitter exchange. I tend to agree with Matt that whether Kylo firmly believes he's doing the right thing or not and whether he has greater good in mind is irrelevant when discussing the degree of "evilness". What makes him different right off the bat is his inner conflict and doubts, which we haven't seen in Palpatine in all of PT and OT, or Vader in ANH, or Hux in TFA.

Saracene wrote:I enjoyed reading that twitter exchange. I tend to agree with Matt that whether Kylo firmly believes he's doing the right thing or not and whether he has greater good in mind is irrelevant when discussing the degree of "evilness". What makes him different right off the bat is his inner conflict and doubts, which we haven't seen in Palpatine in all of PT and OT, or Vader in ANH, or Hux in TFA.

@Saracene

Agreed, especially the bolded. That unique aspect of Kylo has to have some kind of pay-off, and I don't think it'll be that Kylo manages to stifle the inner conflict and doubt, and die an evil villain. There's no catharsis for the story if he "gets over" his conflict and or if he never does, but continues to be evil. The first scenario is rather boring and too linear, while the second is too tragic and empty.

It's sort of new content, at least more about Rey and BB-8's time together on Jakku. Although with all the voice actors being mentioned, nothing about Ben "Jean Ralphio Sapperstein" Schwartz returning as BB-8? Also how in the heck did Rey pull of that move with her tractor shaped speeder?



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MeadowofAshes wrote:@snufkin
That part of his characterization has been, ironically, picked up on by people all over the fandom. Hence accounts like EmoKyloRen or him actually playing a vinyl record during Bad Lip Reading. He's that guy. Problem is a lot of fans fail to see he's some aspect of them!

He is! I mean, JJ didn't help matters with the "imagine what it would be like to go back to your childhood bedroom when you were 10 years old" quote (shudder) by invoking that type of nostalgia. But he's so that guy and it will never stop being entertaining how much those guys hate him and don't get the point.

Tex wrote:
Maybe Ben as as an adolescent tried to be like Han, but failed? Then got sent to Luke and tried to be a Jedi, but failed? Now apart of the First Order he tried to be like his grandfather Darth Vader and still fails. In the end he realizes he doesn't have to be like any of them, he can do his own thing and let go of trying to carry on this massive legacy that each of these different men in his life left behind. In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

@Tex

Whenever The Force Awakens comes up on more general film forums, and I run into the "It's just a copy of the first one" lines, I always defend TFA by saying it's the smartest and the artiest of the entire series. Empire is the best film. But it has very classical, straightforward, duty-to-self-duty-to-society sorts of themes. TFA's themes are post-modern. They have to do with history and identity, how we receive and interpret the past and turn it into us. The big question for Kylo especially, but also Rey and all of the characters, is whether or not they can move beyond the past to become their own person(s).

Kylo Men wrote:

Tex wrote:
Maybe Ben as as an adolescent tried to be like Han, but failed? Then got sent to Luke and tried to be a Jedi, but failed? Now apart of the First Order he tried to be like his grandfather Darth Vader and still fails. In the end he realizes he doesn't have to be like any of them, he can do his own thing and let go of trying to carry on this massive legacy that each of these different men in his life left behind. In a way the ST says, no, I'm my own thing, for a new generation of SW fans.

@Tex

Whenever The Force Awakens comes up on more general film forums, and I run into the "It's just a copy of the first one" lines, I always defend TFA by saying it's the smartest and the artiest of the entire series. Empire is the best film. But it has very classical, straightforward, duty-to-self-duty-to-society sorts of themes. TFA's themes are post-modern. They have to do with history and identity, how we receive and interpret the past and turn it into us. The big question for Kylo especially, but also Rey and all of the characters, is whether or not they can move beyond the past to become their own person(s).  

@Kylo Men

Yes, I thoroughly agree. Love the use of the term post-modern, very fitting . We have three characters, Rey, Finn and Kylo dressed up in the trappings of what society and circumstance have put upon them, particularly by the people/generations that have come before them. They are faceless when we first meet each of them, each wearing a mask of their stereotype. Abandoned on Jakku, Rey was forced to live the life of a scavenger. Possibly abducted, Finn was forced to live the life of a nameless solider. Kylo, burdened by the weight of his family's legacies strives to emulate the last male figure in his family that he thinks he could live up to. As you said, TFA has "to do with history and identity, how we receive and interpret the past and turn it into us.", it's about these characters coming to terms with their true identity as individuals while finding a way to integrate the past/what's been left to them by other generations.

'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

WhatGirl wrote:'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

@WhatGirl

This nut sure is a tough one to crack...

WhatGirl wrote:'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

@WhatGirl

Yeah, I can't remember if you were here back then it not, but someone addressed the "warning datacard" to Pablo, suggesting that Kylo sent it, and Pablo said he couldn't get into that. @Mrs Ben Solo might have a copy of the actual tweet. I can't remember the exact wording, but I  remember thinking that it was definitely Kylo who sent it.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

@WhatGirl

Yeah, I can't remember if you were here back then it not, but someone addressed the "warning datacard" to Pablo, suggesting that Kylo sent it, and Pablo said he couldn't get into that. @Mrs Ben Solo might have a copy of the actual tweet. I can't remember the exact wording, but I  remember thinking that it was definitely Kylo who sent it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yesssssss, we did think it was Kylo who sends it. Also there is a theory on tumblr about the assassination attempt on Leia in Bloodline. Was it Snoke showing Kylo he could "get to" Leia if Kylo didn't join the FO? Or was it an inside job and that is why Kylo turned on the Resistance? Anyway, a theory that Kylo is protecting his mother somehow.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

@WhatGirl

Yeah, I can't remember if you were here back then it not, but someone addressed the "warning datacard" to Pablo, suggesting that Kylo sent it, and Pablo said he couldn't get into that. @Mrs Ben Solo might have a copy of the actual tweet. I can't remember the exact wording, but I  remember thinking that it was definitely Kylo who sent it.

@SoloSideCousin

I remember that tweet! It might even be in the archived tweets pinned in this section of the forum. Let me look.

@ReyofLightSide - I went with the interpretation that it was an inside job and that there were people inside the Elder Houses/the NR who wanted to take her out because of what they stood to gain by collaborating with the FO. And that the NR turning on his mother could possibly parallel with whatever happened to cause his defection.

Found it!  And if anyone has Reylo doubts right now, go reread the archived tweets thread - especially the early ones before Pablo got tired of answering questions.  It's gold.

The tumblr theory also state that the assassination scene was requested to Claudia by Rian to be added to the book.

ReyofLightSide wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:'Yet to be told', huh? Interesting.  



Gosh, I wonder who in the First Order would've wanted to save Leia?

@WhatGirl

Yeah, I can't remember if you were here back then it not, but someone addressed the "warning datacard" to Pablo, suggesting that Kylo sent it, and Pablo said he couldn't get into that. @Mrs Ben Solo might have a copy of the actual tweet. I can't remember the exact wording, but I  remember thinking that it was definitely Kylo who sent it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yesssssss, we did think it was Kylo who sends it. Also there is a theory on tumblr about the assassination attempt on Leia in Bloodline. Was it Snoke showing Kylo he could "get to" Leia if Kylo didn't join the FO? Or was it an inside job and that is why Kylo turned on the Resistance? Anyway, a theory that Kylo is protecting his mother somehow.

@ReyofLightSide

That would make a TON of sense, knowing a bit of the background behind Bloodline. The "napkin incident" was one of the things that Claudia Gray included at Rian's request, if you'll recall. And from what I recall, the whole bombing thing was more like a "warning shot" than something actually intended to kill.

It would also be very Anakin-like if Ben's fall had to do with protecting his mother.