Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I don't think he's a virgin. He might not have acted like a classic tomcat like Han, but he does act with some swag in a couple of scenes. Plus, sex =/= emotions.

The whole "casual sex Ren" totally betrays my personal interpretation of the character. It makes no sense to me (to me, not necessarily to everybody else, and I'm sure others have reasons for believing what they believe on the matter).

As far as I'm concerned sex would = emotions for a character like Ren. He's so incredibly repressed, controlled and conditioned. Sex and intimacy of any kind would all be "distractions" fit for regular "men". He doesn't want to be a "man", he wants to be something far more. He wants to be Darth Vader. I can't see him engaging in normal adult activity.

Ren also seems pretty shameful and willing to hide everything that makes him Ben Solo—everything that makes him human. He covers himself up to his neck, and he doesn't even remove his helmet in front of his grandfather's mask (the thing he trusts most). I just can't see him putting himself in a position of vulnerability with anybody, not for any reason—until Rey of course... and Han.

The moment Han touched Ren was clearly the first human contact Ren had been given in a very long time... and narratively, that's the way he should be. The scene is so much more powerful when you take into account how lonely Ren really must be, how starved of intimacy.

Star Wars is an idealistic, optimistic family-friendly story that would never mention casual hook-ups, affairs, one-night-stands or sex as a biological imperative. It's a modern fairytale in which true love is all that matters. In Star Wars, sex will always = emotions. I'm sure Han was quite the "tom cat" (as you put it), but we're never going to hear about it because once Leia came into the picture, that part of his life was done. Fans can only speculate.

AnneNeville wrote:Agreed. I doubt Finn is, considering his military background (just IMHO). I am going to choose to think Rey is, because it is a Disney movie and the "reality" of what life would have been like for an abandoned girl on a planet like that hardly bears contemplating. Though the novelization, if I recall @Ohtze's summaries, makes it pretty clear that at least Plutt has nasty designs on her, so . . .

Darth_Awakened wrote:Of course he is a virgin.
Kylo is not weak and foolish like his father.
I am just imagining the same poll for Han Solo in ANH (mwahahaha)

That is actually a fantastic supporting detail for Virgin!Kylo.

Re Rey: Yeah, Plutt has some horrible designs on her, but I honestly doubt Disney would go down that route in the literal sense. Like half their audience are basically kids, and you do not want that in the movie.

Re Virgin!Kylo: I have a whole tag around this on my tumblr, actually. It's called "Kylo and the ongoing adventure of awkward boners." Ppl are very, very interested to see if he's done the deed.

ALSO: I would love for a third "undecided" option on this poll. Cuz I am firmly split down the middle on this.

Airemyn wrote:As a 30 year old myself, I find it very difficult to believe he would be a virgin, even if it was just casual. It's quite possible that he's never been in love though.

@Airemyn As a 36 year old, I can understand that way of thinking. But I actually still think Virgin!Kylo is plausible. Here's why: As a late bloomer, I can attest that sex is one of those things that you miss more once you've had it. The less experience you have (and the longer it is before you get that experience), the less bothered you are by its absence. If you are older and never-been-kissed, it's much easier to keep on being untouched.

Of course, that's a generality. But I think a character like Kylo, who is wrapped up in half-a-dozen layers of leather and sackcloth like a monk, might be so isolated (and repressed?) that he hardly knows what he is missing.

vaderito wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

vaderito wrote:@AnneNeville Yes after April 5. Legal sith.

Absolutely. Only after April 5!!!

BTW,as a Mod, what do you make of this thread's skyrocketing viewing count? Who's viewing?

@vaderito, I don't know! I don't have any analytics as far as I know to figure out where the hits are coming from.

Maybe we members are just refreshing over and over and over again, because Virgin!Kylo is so compelling?

vaderito wrote:

AnnLouise wrote:Sp Kylo Ren may br the Star Wars Space Opera version of the Tortured Virginial Hero. If Disney puts even a  PG-13 hint of this in Ep 8/9, I'll love them forever!

Well, Snoke calls him "pure" in novelization so that's that.

And in a creepy way, I would bet Snoke has poisoned Kylo Ren's mind to see any contact with others - visual, physical or emotional- as weakness, something that destroyed his idol Vader.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

Force22 wrote:I wish there was an in-between answer. Maybe he's had some experience, but it wasn't great, and he's sexually repressed regardless.

This is how I see him. Not a virgin but he's only had a couple of experiences in his youth and they weren't nearly as intense or powerful as what he instinctually knows he'd have with a certain girl he's probably had a vision of so he puts it on the back burner and places his focus on more important things.

Sorry, I got caught up in binary thinking when I made this poll.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I don't think he's a virgin. He might not have acted like a classic tomcat like Han, but he does act with some swag in a couple of scenes. Plus, sex =/= emotions.

The whole "casual sex Ren" totally betrays my personal interpretation of the character. It makes no sense to me (to me, not necessarily to everybody else, and I'm sure others have reasons for believing what they believe on the matter).

As far as I'm concerned sex would = emotions for a character like Ren. He's so incredibly repressed, controlled and conditioned. Sex and intimacy of any kind would all be "distractions" fit for regular "men". He doesn't want to be a "man", he wants to be something far more. He wants to be Darth Vader. I can't see him engaging in normal adult activity.

Ren also seems pretty shameful and willing to hide everything that makes him Ben Solo—everything that makes him human. He covers himself up to his neck, and he doesn't even remove his helmet in front of his grandfather's mask (the thing he trusts most). I just can't see him putting himself in a position of vulnerability with anybody, not for any reason—until Rey of course... and Han.

The moment Han touched Ren was clearly the first human contact Ren had been given in a very long time... and narratively, that's the way he should be. The scene is so much more powerful when you take into account how lonely Ren really must be, how starved of intimacy.

Star Wars is an idealistic, optimistic family-friendly story that would never mention casual hook-ups, affairs, one-night-stands or sex as a biological imperative. It's a modern fairytale in which true love is all that matters. In Star Wars, sex will always = emotions. I'm sure Han was quite the "tom cat" (as you put it), but we're never going to hear about it because once Leia came into the picture, that part of his life was done. Fans can only speculate.

Yeah, there was no great love that he slept with and than she died, let alone "one night stand that conceived Rey Skywalker " type of hook up. Rey's his first everything - love, sexual awakening - and that'll be forever. It's a fairytale.

Also, Han's touch is totally about that he didn't have human contact in a long time. Significance is massive.

I support adding third option for fans on the fence. It's going to be interesting for the discussion.

Force22 wrote:I wish there was an in-between answer. Maybe he's had some experience, but it wasn't great, and he's sexually repressed regardless.

This would be my vote.

That said, I don't think he's ever played the role of the seducer himself before. With his body/body language, I can't see him not attracting some female admirers, even if he never takes the mask off.

And I've said in several other posts that I see a certain air of smugness when he unmasks in front of Rey--that he expects her to like what she sees.

However, I doubt that he's ever experienced any sort of real intimacy or relationship before.

ETA: GAH! I just saw the new option go up. Is there a way to change my vote?

Ok, sorry for anyone who had to choose between two unsatisfactory options. I've added an option for "he's dabbled" and an option for "undecided." Happy now?

Since we're talking about Kylo's sex life, hop on over to my thread in Ep 8 Speculation and let's discuss what Kylo and Rey's joint sex life will be like

@ISeeAnIsland and other people who need to change their vote: I turned on vote canceling. You can fix your votes now.

AnneNeville wrote:

Airemyn wrote:As a 30 year old myself, I find it very difficult to believe he would be a virgin, even if it was just casual. It's quite possible that he's never been in love though.

@Airemyn As a 36 year old, I can understand that way of thinking. But I actually still think Virgin!Kylo is plausible. Here's why: As a late bloomer, I can attest that sex is one of those things that you miss more once you've had it. The less experience you have (and the longer it is before you get that experience), the less bothered you are by its absence. If you are older and never-been-kissed, it's much easier to keep on being untouched.

Of course, that's a generality. But I think a character like Kylo, who is wrapped up in half-a-dozen layers of leather and sackcloth like a monk, might be so isolated (and repressed?) that he hardly knew what he was missing.

Not just that he hardly knew, he hardly cared.

For me, a great deal of this has to do with Rey, their equality and the notion that she has to be—in my mind—"special". Now, I know some would say that Ren has casual sex that doesn't have anything to do with emotional attachment, but would he really be able to do that? Would the emotional, charged, out-of-control, reveals-more-about-himself-with-every-line, childlike Kylo Ren be able to stop himself from feeling an attachment to someone he allowed himself to be in any way vulnerable with? Just removing his garbs would make him vulnerable, and I can't even see Ren doing that, not even a little bit. No way. Ren feels way too much. He would lose himself, lose his mission, lose all sense of self, just as he did when he killed his father and when Rey caught his legacy saber.

Ren's physical and emotional virginity are two of the things that make him so "saveable" to me. He's still pure in many ways, and that purity will allow his love for another person to win out in the end. This whole notion goes to a deep place for me, to the level of "equality" presented between Rey and Ren. They have to be on the same level in this regard as well. Rey is something new to him, something that is genuinely awakening the desires he has ignored or never cared to feel for so long. She is the pull to the Light, the pull to adulthood, the pull to sexuality. Again, this is deep stuff for me, not just "Ren has casual sex because he's 29."

Airemyn wrote:As a 30 year old myself, I find it very difficult to believe he would be a virgin, even if it was just casual. It's quite possible that he's never been in love though.

Well, as a 30-year-old virgin, I beg to differ I also guess quite a few attractive young men out there in the real world are virgins because of their religious background.

But even without real-life examples, at the end of the day, it's a different universe, different rules... GFFA fairytale world with a Snoke repressing your natural impulses (to the Light, to life itself) = total virgin, in my opinion.

I guess I don't think of this in terms of realism at all. I just think Virgin!Kylo makes sense on so many levels. Thematically, visually, fairytale-wise, you name it. The film has him coded as a repressed bundle of barely contained fire that's kept completely hidden under layer upon layer of heavy clothing, who leads a life of unnatural isolation and loneliness under the spell of an Evil Wizard, depressed and anxious, dressed like a Templar, leading what sounds like a band of warrior monks, and mostly using his very big phallic lightsaber to destroy equipment and furniture in fits of frustration. About to be seduced, as the text tells us. The novel has Snoke extolling his purity and implying that the girl he feels attracted to is going to suffer in order to teach him a lesson.

I think there are far more reasons to assume he's a fairytale virgin than otherwise. Or at least it makes so much more sense thematically, to me. I tend to see him as a cursed young knight who has missed out on life itself. But life comes to him in the form of Rey, and he is awakened from his cursed slumber, awakened in all possible senses of the word. Now he has seen with his own eyes what life really is, and Snoke won't be able to stop him from running after it.

I think Ren being "seduced by the Light" is a narrative stroke of genius. It becomes a very powerful story when the Light isn't merely vague "goodness" or "doing the right thing", but basically life itself, intertwined with sexuality. A metaphorical seduction meets a literal seduction. Even by itself, sexual passion is a powerful driving force in a narrative; but combine it with all this and BOOM. It's magic.

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

AnneNeville wrote:@ISeeAnIsland and other people who need to change their vote: I turned on vote canceling. You can fix your votes now.

Thank you! This is important stuff to get right! We may have to look into assigning superdelegates.

AnneNeville wrote:

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

In fact, this is exactly that I thought although I was cautios to word it because it may be too much and this is something really serious and sad, but yes, I agree with you completely. We won't see anything but it's there, that boy is controlled by Snoke as if he had him on a leash. When Han tries to touch him on the catwalk, when he comes near him, Kylo backs away slightly, just like a mistreated anymal, and his eyes widen, as if expecting physical punishment. That screams abuse to me, not by Han, of course, but by Snoke.

And then we have him dressed like that, covered from head to toe like that, hiding his body's shape like that (so much padding, so many layers of fabric, long robes, that's too much). Add the word "seduced by Snoke" and you have it, that suggests something sexual which would explain why he gives out that virgin vibe. And that is not unheard of in sects and some "religious" communities as regards kids, unfortunately, it's the opposite.

Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Reynak wrote:
Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Not unlike another old creeper in the PT.....

I'm undecided but leaning toward Kylo the virgin largely because of the whole Snoke/First Order situation. His reaction to Hux seeing him without his helmet was one of almost shame, but I think that Snoke has seen him without his helmet because I know you don't see him enter the chamber to gauge either reaction, it's just the impression I got. That Snoke is the only living thing other than himself that's seen his own face for years.

I like the comparison to the Knights Templar too.

AnneNeville wrote:

Airemyn wrote:As a 30 year old myself, I find it very difficult to believe he would be a virgin, even if it was just casual. It's quite possible that he's never been in love though.

@Airemyn As a 36 year old, I can understand that way of thinking. But I actually still think Virgin!Kylo is plausible. Here's why: As a late bloomer, I can attest that sex is one of those things that you miss more once you've had it. The less experience you have (and the longer it is before you get that experience), the less bothered you are by its absence. If you are older and never-been-kissed, it's much easier to keep on being untouched.

Of course, that's a generality. But I think a character like Kylo, who is wrapped up in half-a-dozen layers of leather and sackcloth like a monk, might be so isolated (and repressed?) that he hardly knows what he is missing.

Yes, yes, exactly. He is so passionate, so full to the brim of barely contained emotions, so bottled up that he can't have had casual sex and then thought it wasn't worth it because of the cause or whatever rubbish. Once he tries it, he won't find it bearable to exist without it. But it won't be casual but crucial, like everything in him, it's going to be for Rey and Rey alone.

Also, as you say here, this is one of those things you can live without, until you try it. After that, it isn't so easy. Kylo is all for the extremes, casual sex not interfering with his training and his life is unthinkable, I guess Snoke sees this and has the boy on a really short leash, in all senses. The creeper is keeping his pure boy as unadulterated and untouched as possible for as long as possible. No wonder Kylo is like SK, ready to burst in myriads of flames and lava (ohh, no pun intended, I promise!).

Also, he is so emotional that he would become emotionally attached to any girl who gave him some intimacy and made him feel good, he'd probably take it for affection to some extent, I think. So, casual sex doesn't make much sense for this character.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Force22 wrote:I wish there was an in-between answer. Maybe he's had some experience, but it wasn't great, and he's sexually repressed regardless.

This would be my vote.

That said, I don't think he's ever played the role of the seducer himself before. With his body/body language, I can't see him not attracting some female admirers, even if he never takes the mask off.

And I've said in several other posts that I see a certain air of smugness when he unmasks in front of Rey--that he expects her to like what she sees.

However, I doubt that he's ever experienced any sort of real intimacy or relationship before.

ETA: GAH!  I just saw the new option go up. Is there a way to change my vote?

He is smug because he is FS and ohhh so powerful, he is Anakin Skywalker's heritage, and he's proud of this, but I think he tries to imagine himself above human concerns and weaknesses, that he has been made to believe he is above all those things that make Han weak and foolish, but so charming and charismatic. His son wants to be above all that and has probably been lead to believe he must be. He was under Luke's tutelage first (jedis are like monks, no casual sex, no, no, probably no sex at all) and then with that old giant raisin Snoke, poor kid.

No wonder he burst with so much pent up emotion and repressed needs and feelings. Frolicking is so right, he is like DS bursting big time.

This doesn't mean he doesn't know he has a pretty face and a nice body, I guess Snoke makes him train every day real hard, LOL. I'm joking here. But seriously, he is terribly mistaken because both his Dad and his grandfather were passionate men, and this is probably the only thing they had in common. It's in Kylo's genes to be passionate and love deeply.

AnneNeville wrote:Ok, sorry for anyone who had to choose between two unsatisfactory options. I've added an option for "he's dabbled" and an option for "undecided." Happy now?

Sticking with the Tortured Virgin Hero option.

Absolute 'virgin' for sure....due to his complicated upbringing and Snoke's influence on him from a young age.
Ben feels incredibly awkward about himself and there is no way he would feel comfortable letting someone get close to him in that respect.
Also, Snoke would certainly frown upon such things due to the emotional attachment and compassionate feelings such an act would trigger.
Snoke has worked so hard to drive out those very emotional responses out of Kylo Ren, I have a hard time seeing him allowing it unless it was done purely in a non-emotive, self-satisfactional  way.

Ditto for Rey, in my opinion, due to her isolation.
Her behavior and reactions to certain happenings lead me to believe she is on her own and has been for all of her life to date.

Both characters crave relationships, and when they came together they both suddenly realized feelings they probably never knew.
They share the same trait in that they have both been cut off from their family and have been living in real and personal isolation for a good portion of their lives.
Suddenly, they have someone they can relate to regarding that.
Kylo recognizes this and is drawn to her, but Rey rejects her interest in Kylo.

In good time, we will see them both realize they can keep each other company.
They can help each other in ways no one else probably could.

It must happen...and will happen.....and both will be a lot happier in their lives when it does.

Oh, and a few thousand 'Reylo' fans will be happier, too!




P.s -  45 and still a virgin. Believe it. 
 I'm not 'religious' either...I'm just like Kylo and Rey!

I'm guessing that he saw his Father's passion/freedom and reputation (as a ladies man/scoundrel) as key elements of him being weak and foolish. So he'd want to be the total opposite - repressed passions, controlled. Live a life of servitude and obedience (to an extent - hello Rey, you break that in him!)

Rogue Rey wrote:I'm guessing that he saw his Father's passion/freedom and reputation (as a ladies man/scoundrel) as key elements of him being weak and foolish.  So he'd want to be the total opposite - repressed passions,  controlled.  Live a life of servitude and obedience (to an extent - hello Rey, you break that in him!)

I know that we all want to believe that Han would never have cheated on Leia, but I'm really starting to wonder about that at this point.

There's the line in the jr. novelization when Han is dying, hoping that Ben would be able to forgive him, and the recent PH tweet about whatever Han did to disappoint Ben playing a role in him turning to the Dark side. These two hints tell me that Han did something pretty bad...

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:I'm guessing that he saw his Father's passion/freedom and reputation (as a ladies man/scoundrel) as key elements of him being weak and foolish.  So he'd want to be the total opposite - repressed passions,  controlled.  Live a life of servitude and obedience (to an extent - hello Rey, you break that in him!)

I know that we all want to believe that Han would never have cheated on Leia, but I'm really starting to wonder about that at this point.

There's the line in the jr. novelization when Han is dying, hoping that Ben would be able to forgive him, and the recent PH tweet about whatever Han did to disappoint Ben playing a role in him turning to the Dark side.  These two hints tell me that Han did something pretty bad...

I've wondered about this, too. What did Pablo say?