Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

I believe Kylo is very much a virgin. He's physically and emotionally repressed and stuck in a kind of stasis. I think this is one reason he comes across as younger than his actual age. I know when I first saw TFA, I thought he was 25 years old, max.

To me, he's like a chaste space crusader or space knight (I love that habit of SW fans of inserting "space" in front of real world things to make it more star warsy ). He's reminiscent of a Knights Templar and they have a code of honor of sorts. I really think that Kylo being a "knight" will be have some impact on the narrative going forward. I know he has done terrible things, but he seems to have a "code of honor" of sorts. I also think his feelings toward Rey are going to reflect a kind of "knightly" dynamic.

Darth Dingleberry wrote:

Airemyn wrote:As a 30 year old myself, I find it very difficult to believe he would be a virgin, even if it was just casual. It's quite possible that he's never been in love though.

Well, as a 30-year-old virgin, I beg to differ I also guess quite a few attractive young men out there in the real world are virgins because of their religious background.

But even without real-life examples, at the end of the day, it's a different universe, different rules... GFFA fairytale world with a Snoke repressing your natural impulses (to the Light, to life itself) = total virgin, in my opinion.

I guess I don't think of this in terms of realism at all. I just think Virgin!Kylo makes sense on so many levels. Thematically, visually, fairytale-wise, you name it. The film has him coded as a repressed bundle of barely contained fire that's kept completely hidden under layer upon layer of heavy clothing, who leads a life of unnatural isolation and loneliness under the spell of an Evil Wizard, depressed and anxious, dressed like a Templar, leading what sounds like a band of warrior monks, and mostly using his very big phallic lightsaber to destroy equipment and furniture in fits of frustration. About to be seduced, as the text tells us. The novel has Snoke extolling his purity and implying that the girl he feels attracted to is going to suffer in order to teach him a lesson.


I think there are far more reasons to assume he's a fairytale virgin than otherwise. Or at least it makes so much more sense thematically, to me. I tend to see him as a cursed young knight who has missed out on life itself. But life comes to him in the form of Rey, and he is awakened from his cursed slumber, awakened in all possible senses of the word. Now he has seen with his own eyes what life really is, and Snoke won't be able to stop him from running after it.


I think Ren being "seduced by the Light" is a narrative stroke of genius. It becomes a very powerful story when the Light isn't merely vague "goodness" or "doing the right thing", but basically life itself, intertwined with sexuality. A metaphorical seduction meets a literal seduction. Even by itself, sexual passion is a powerful driving force in a narrative; but combine it with all this and BOOM. It's magic.

This is perfection, one Like button is not for this now! I love it.


So beautifully put. He is not really alive, look at him, the way he walks when we first see him, with his shoulders hunched and stomping his feet as if deadly tired, like a monster in a horror movie. But later, when he hears of a girl, we see energy in his stride, purpose, his walk becomes brisk and not heavy any more. He lives in a cattacomb, a crypt, and only talks to the dead, to his grandfather's mask. When he talks to others it's just business, nothing personal, except with Snoke but this is only worse and he gets controlled, repressed and then threatened in the form of threats to Rey.

Dark clothes, a dark room with naked walls, so bleak and unwelcoming, like a monk's cell. Ren is someone dead before tasting life and this is one of the reasons he must be redeemed so that he lives. As you said, he is being attracted by the pull of Life, they may call it Light, but it's not only that, it's the pull of Life itself that Rey represents for Kylo. And this is indeed an awakening for him, an awakening to life.

Darth Dingleberry wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:I'm guessing that he saw his Father's passion/freedom and reputation (as a ladies man/scoundrel) as key elements of him being weak and foolish.  So he'd want to be the total opposite - repressed passions,  controlled.  Live a life of servitude and obedience (to an extent - hello Rey, you break that in him!)

I know that we all want to believe that Han would never have cheated on Leia, but I'm really starting to wonder about that at this point.

There's the line in the jr. novelization when Han is dying, hoping that Ben would be able to forgive him, and the recent PH tweet about whatever Han did to disappoint Ben playing a role in him turning to the Dark side.  These two hints tell me that Han did something pretty bad...

I've wondered about this, too. What did Pablo say?

That Ren considers Han a disappointment.

Thanks Pablo for that informative information.

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

TRIGGER WARNING: Talk about sexual abuse here












The bolded is where I am kind of hung up on this issue.  The Disneyfication aspect absolutely belies both Rey and Kylo/Ben's circumstances as set up in the movie.  It would have almost been impossible for Rey to go unmolested on Jakku without this Disney shield, as she seems to have had no "protector" there whatsoever.  Also, she is a hell of a fighter, which could point to prior violating incidents.  Her absolute need for independence points to prior hurts as well.  There were also hints of Unkar being a disgusting lech in the book.  However, I think someone said in one of the other books that some other scavengers helped her when she was younger.  Maybe this protection would be enough to keep her safe enough until she was older, but she's definitely been in fights before.  People have definitely tried to take advantage of her in some way in the past.  The evidence is plain in her bada** Jakku streetfighter reactions.

As for Kylo, it appears that he received no protection where it really counted, as the Big 3 dropped the ball on Snoke because they didn't pay enough attention to him. One reaction to sexual abuse is terrible shame and self-blame and this can lead to people "hiding themselves".  The way he covers himself so completely and in so many protective layers screams to me that he is protecting himself.  And why is he protecting himself? Possibly because some serious harm came to him.  To be totally blunt and frank, Snoke's behavior is a total metaphor for a family friend, long-term child molester.  He is like one of the abusive priests featured in Spotlight, evil and life-destroying because the abuse hits so deep and is so insidious and ongoing.  (I am Catholic, so I am not trying to curse out Catholics here.  But those priests and the people who covered up for them will have a lot to answer for their crimes on the other side, JMHO, because you don't get much more evil than that).  If you take Kylo out of the Disney context, it becomes really easy to envision a scenario where he was sexually abused as a part of breaking him.  And that is what Snoke's whole grooming process is about ... It's been about breaking him.  What is so amazing about Kylo/Ben is that he apparently withstood God knows what for over two decades before cracking.  That's an amazing inner soul.

So back to the Disney issue.  I am not sure how "Disneyfied" Lucasfilm will remain under new management.  We have been talking about how the interrogation and the Snow Fight were metaphorical sex.  That absolutely never happened in SW.  George Lucas was afraid of sex.  This bunch is not.  Also, JJ flat out used language indicating that Han and Leia's preoccupation led to opening where Snoke could get to Ben.  Child predators are masters at finding this kind of opening and weaknesses in the family.  The aforementioned priests always targeted kids who had no dad or where there were other imperfect circumstances.  All this supplicating behavior in the face of Snoke, yet trying to do other things behind his back can also be used in support of showing a very sick, long-term relationship.  I don't think anything is necessarily ongoing or that Snoke himself necessarily ever did anything to him, but it's just that he could have when he was younger ... or he could have permitted someone else, some prior minion, to do something.  Also, all the "I will not be seduced" language absolutely points to the Light and to his attraction and love for Rey.  Sadly, it can also be interpreted as having an additional, darker meaning, that Kylo will not be seduced away from Snoke, with whom he has a very sick relationship.

That all being said, I absolutely agree that nothing like this will ever be explicitly mentioned, but I could see them having a fleeting line that would go over 95% of the audience's heads that hints at the seduction to the dark side consisting of all kinds of methods.  I think a lot of it is going to depend on Rian Johnson.  If Kylo is not being terribly tortured by Snoke at the beginning of Episode VIII, we probably can be assured that Snoke's abuse was limited to mental and dark side manipulation.  However, if he's getting the lightning at the beginning, something the movies would show, and it seems as if this is not a new thing, I think the door is opened that all manner of bad things happened to Kylo/Ben over the past 30 years and the movie would not have to say another word, they would just let the creepiness hang there.

And this of course goes to my not being 100% sold on this trilogy being solely a coming-of-age story at this point.  I definitely think those elements are there, but there was also a grittiness and a sexual subtext in TFA that was never seen before.  Also, all the three main characters have harsh histories, unlike the other 3 leads in the two prior trilogies.  Even Anakin had his mother when he was a slave.  I actually don't know if we have really gotten the feel of where the new LF wants to take this series yet because so much of TFA was a big teaser and callback to the OT.  But the new parts were darker and more realistic than SW of old.  Just the using of a Hades and Persephone romance is new.  Maybe making the man Persephone is new.  Having Han's murder be drawn out and by a crying son is new.  Showing the seediness of Han's smuggling in so much detail is new.  Rian Johnson directed Breaking Bad episodes.  I just think that these new movies are just going to be more complicated and I think that they are going to have layers and layers of subtext.  I think it's going to be a mix of mythology, coming of age and various tropes married to the complex storylines and characterizations we're getting today in other vehicles.  I could be totally wrong, of course, but I just see a lot of new things happening in the new elements of SW.  I just don't know how many of the old rules the new team is going to follow.  As such, I am reserving judgment on all this controversial stuff I have just discussed because I want to get the feel of where Rian is going, because Rian's tone is going to be the future tone.

I'm not saying they are going to go all Deadpool here. They still want to sell merchandise.  But there can be all kinds of subtext that goes over kids' heads.  The movies are also now in the PG-13 category, and I think they will stay there.  Further, part of the reason the prequels were so maligned was because they were so kiddie.  SW also has a significant adult fanbase so they have to serve both markets.  Disney owns Lucasfilm, but it also owns Marvel.  I just think that we will have to wait and see if LF leans more Disney or more Marvel.

If Kylo can be interpreted as being abused in this way, then he might not technically be a virgin, but he would absolutely, positively be a real virgin to genuine and good sexual and romantic attraction and love.  In some ways, an abuse history would actually make him a much more poignant virgin like Whoopi Goldberg's character in The Color Purple because Rey really would be the light of love in the darkness, this healing force, this safe place of love he would have been craving for years.  In that respect, maybe he unmasks to her because he has these hopes for her, that he hopes she will be safe for him.  He has had to protect himself from harm for so long, but now he takes that risk with her.

But for the sake of the argument here, let's say the Disney shield holds and neither of them were sexually abused.  Then for me Kylo's virginity comes down to a few questions. (1) How old was Ben when he started training with Luke?  If he was sent away when he was in his late teens, I think he might not be a virgin, but would be unexperienced.  Being Han Solo's son, I could maybe see Han being that Dad who takes his son to some trusted prostitute on the sly as some transition to manhood, or Han pushing his emo, sensitive son to get a girlfriend, etc.  However, if Ben is sent away before 16, I think virginity becomes more likely, because I think Luke is running a Jedi monastery.  Though I could see a small chance for a scenario where Ben may have had some kind of fledgling romance that never got off the ground or went badly where the girl rejected him or Luke went all "no attachments" on him, but the one true love thing with Rey is starting to convince me over time, so I think this is less likely. (2) How does Snoke view sex? Would Snoke encourage casual, unfeeling sex as a way to desensitize Kylo *and* to make him less likely to fall like a house of cards the first time he sees a hot girl? This is my husband's argument, and also the argument for why Finn might not be a virgin.  I could see an argument for this, because Snoke hates sentiment and wants to burn it out of Kylo.  However, in this scenario, I could also see Kylo/Ben getting sickened by this, because he is so sensitive, and turning himself into the celibate Knight Templar Ren, and covering himself up so completely and wanting to control himself because he is guilty about being with some girls that Snoke threw at him.  Under that scenario, Kylo is not a virgin, but he has remade himself into a priest out of guilt .... But, if Snoke doesn't want Kylo touched, because he wants him so much in his thrall (which can maybe correlate to the above-mentioned abuse scenarios depending on level of Disneyfication) and he wants him pure for his uses and his uses alone, then Kylo is a virgin, either technically or mentally (like in the abuse scenario), and he has to suppress himself ridiculously and in every way to keep every emotion, including attraction in check.  In this scenario his clothing reflects his need to guard against his own urges by making it crazy difficult to undress and/or to protect himself because he has been harmed before.

I initially was "he's definitely not a virgin" camp because of his age and because of his being Han's son and being in a military context for years.  But the clothing thing has been holding me back on this because the KOR could be a Knights Templar, as they are all covered from head to toe.  But otoh, this is SW and people dress in too many clothes usually and maybe all his layers can be explained by being a kind of body armor.

So at this point, I am not sure where I stand.  I do however think that regardless of his virgin status he will be very well aware of "what's what", because he appears to be quite intelligent and knowledgeable about a lot of things and probably doesn't want too many knowledge gaps that would leave him vulnerable.  Also, such knowledge exploration might provide a safety valve for his overall suppression of emotion and urges ... if you get what I mean.

From the way he talks, to the way he dresses and the way he acts around Rey, I can say he's a virgin. He's physically attracted to Rey and he's definitely never felt this way before so he's an awkward mess around her. So when she humiliates him, he doesn't cut her down like he did with Lor San Tekka, he's not even angry. He just runs off...

There's some really interesting insight here everyone, I'm pretty torn now. He could certainly be a virgin but somehow I doubt we will find out.

Darth Dingleberry wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:I'm guessing that he saw his Father's passion/freedom and reputation (as a ladies man/scoundrel) as key elements of him being weak and foolish.  So he'd want to be the total opposite - repressed passions,  controlled.  Live a life of servitude and obedience (to an extent - hello Rey, you break that in him!)

I know that we all want to believe that Han would never have cheated on Leia, but I'm really starting to wonder about that at this point.

There's the line in the jr. novelization when Han is dying, hoping that Ben would be able to forgive him, and the recent PH tweet about whatever Han did to disappoint Ben playing a role in him turning to the Dark side.  These two hints tell me that Han did something pretty bad...

I've wondered about this, too. What did Pablo say?

Is it the PH tweet thread? Oops, jusw it upthread. Wou,d be good to save though.Doesn't sound like a snarky "red herring" to me.

Reynak wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

In fact, this is exactly that I thought although I was cautios to word it because it may be too much and this is something really serious and sad, but yes, I agree with you completely. We won't see anything but it's there, that boy is controlled by Snoke as if he had him on a leash. When Han tries to touch him on the catwalk, when he comes near him, Kylo backs away slightly, just like a mistreated anymal, and his eyes widen, as if expecting physical punishment. That screams abuse to me, not by Han, of course, but by Snoke.

And then we have him dressed like that, covered from head to toe like that, hiding his body's shape like that (so much padding, so many layers of fabric, long robes, that's too much). Add the word "seduced by Snoke" and you have it, that suggests something sexual which would explain why he gives out that virgin vibe. And that is not unheard of in sects and some "religious" communities as regards kids, unfortunately, it's the opposite.

Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Oh man! You are so right with the two young and *beautiful* commanders.  Both Kylo and Hux are absolutely beautiful young men.  Oh yeah, that subtext is there.  I agree with all of this post.  I just wrote a massive post getting into it with a trigger warning.

@SoloSideCousin That's an excellent point that a lot of it depends on how old he was when he was sent away to train with Luke.

If intuition is correct from the shot that Sforza saw, it's possible that he was hoping/training to be a pilot in his teens and probably had a more normal exposure to things, including sex, possibly.

@SoloSideCousin -- Great post. I agree about the (sexual) abuse subtext. If they pursue the "Snoke seduced young Ben to the dark side" aggressively, it will be hard to hide the implications. And yes, @Reynak, the two young, beautiful men Snoke keeps competing for his favor just adds to the creepiness factor.

Rogue Rey wrote:I'm undecided but leaning toward Kylo the virgin largely because of the whole Snoke/First Order situation.  His reaction to Hux seeing him without his helmet was one of almost shame, but I think that Snoke has seen him without his helmet because I know you don't see him enter the chamber to gauge either reaction, it's just the impression I got.  That Snoke is the only living thing other than himself that's seen his own face for years.

I like the comparison to the Knights Templar too.

I agree

This puts what he did for Rey, unmasking for her, in a new light. It emphasizes how important this action is for a man whose face no one has seen in years. Only Snoke has had this right for years because Kylo even talks to his grandfather's mask wearing his, which is terrible.

I'm amazed at the quality of Driver's acting, because that scene where Hux sees his face speaks volumes, he is so ashamed it is unbelieavable. He unmasks for Han, but Han is his father. I agree no one but Snoke has seen his face in years and Adam's performance conveys exactly that. His unmasking for Rey is an extraordinary event for this guy,i it's pivotal for the plot and for him. The HD gifs show his eyes nearly teary when he looks at her for the first time without his mask, and this is because for him, that's incredibly important.

And then we have to hear all those people saying he shouldn't have unmasked for her, they didn't understand anything.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:@SoloSideCousin That's an excellent point that a lot of it depends on how old he was when he was sent away to train with Luke.

If intuition is correct from the shot that Sforza saw, it's possible that he was hoping/training to be a pilot in his teens and probably had a more normal exposure to things, including sex, possibly.

YES! I forgot about the Naboo pilot thing! If he was a pilot at some point and not a Jedi trainee until he was older, then virginity would be unlikely.  Under the pilot scenario .... and I am just going out on a limb he with my usual stream of consciousness speculating ... but if he was a pilot he might have had a love of some kind *and* something bad might have happened to her ... like Snoke had her killed and blamed the Jedi for it ... or even in that Henry II way, where Ben expressed some dark thought about the Jedi and Snoke led it to come true and the love maybe got killed in the attack ... then Ben turns and becomes Kylo over severe grief and deep betrayal and his clothing then becomes a mourning cloth and/or a promise to be loyal to her forever out of guilt and/or love.  I saw this great Korean miniseries on Netflix called Faith (of The Great Doctor) that I never got to finish before it disappeared from Netflix, but a warrior becomes celibate for many years out of grief and honor to a lost love.  His awkwardness could then be explained by (1) his relative innocence from that first relationship, (2) being out of practice, (3) his guilt that he doesn't deserve anyone fighting against his intense attraction to Rey.  Just thoughts. :-)

@SoloSideCousin.....I like your theory and can see some possibilities with it though it is purely head canon ....of course it all depends on when he became Luke's apprentice...but I can imagine a scenario where he had to leave his teenage love to go train with Luke so he resents his family....maybe she was from some warrior clan and had a younger sister who got kidnapped when she was 5-6 years old....then Snoke gets his gf killed and Kylo falls to the dark side...he wears her helmet to honour her memory and lives like a dead person till her younger sister returns into his life....like a 'rey' of sunshine....

You guys are seriously killing it in this thread! Such insightful, intelligent discussion that even goes deep into some very serious, dark real life concerns.

Reynak wrote:


This puts what he did for Rey, unmasking for her, in a new light, how important it is for a man whose face no one has seen in years. Only Snoke has had this right for years and he taks to his grandfather's mask wearing his, which is terrible.

I'm amazed at the quality of Driver's acting, because that scene where Hux sees his face speaks volumes, he is so ashamed it is unbelieavable. He unmasks for Han, but Han is his father, I agree no one but Snoke has seen his face in years and Adam's performance conveys exactly that. His unmasking for Rey is an extraordinary event for this guy,i it's pivotal for the plot and for him. The HD gifs show his eyes nearly teary when he looks at her for the first time without his mask, and this is because for him, that's incredibly important.

And then and we have to hear all those people saying he shouldn't have unmasked for her, they didn't understand anything.

They don't understand because they still believe ST is about OT characters and new ones are guests on OT character's show. TFA isn't about Han but Rey and Kylo and Finn. Therefore, unmasking for Rey is far more important than unmasking for Han. Second unmasking serves to show how big deal first unmasking was since Rey is not his family. And yet he cared to show her his face that he hides from everyone except Snoke. So emotional element was strongly implied as the reason for unmasking because emotional element was the reason for showing himself to Han.

Also, teary eyes = Ring Composition. Vader teared up when he saw his son with his own eyes. That's something we tend to forget about Kylo's unmasking, that it isn't just meant for Rey to see he isn't a "creatchah in a maaask" but is also meant for him to see her with his own eyes.

@Darth Dingleberry

I think Ren being "seduced by the Light" is a narrative stroke of genius. It becomes a very powerful story when the Light isn't merely vague "goodness" or "doing the right thing", but basically life itself, intertwined with sexuality. A metaphorical seduction meets a literal seduction. Even by itself, sexual passion is a powerful driving force in a narrative; but combine it with all this and BOOM. It's magic.

Bravo. Also, speaking of "life itself". He is seduced by Rey's Light and her Force sound happens to be heartbeat aka life itself. This ship writes itself.

As for Creeper Snoke, I can't diagnose a fictional character like Kylo. But even with Disney shield, I think that rotting corpse such as Snoke touching a child either through the Force or physically (hand shake, for example) is meant to put some horrific scenarios in one's head because of how repulsive it all is. They didn't play with this subtext in Ani and Palpatine case because Ani was with the Jedi, Palpatine looked regular and he never tried to stun Anakin's emotional growth and keep him in child-like state. But that's what Snoke does with Kylo and one cannot escape feeling that there's something far more sinister than let on. It's sick. They don't beat you over the head with it and it flies over many heads but they definitely put some food for thought in that vile relationship. Oh and Snoke's occasionally lascivious snarl "Bring her to meeee". Ugh. Yeah, there's something going on in there that JJ kind of wants you to see but not be completely sure if that's what you're seeing. Cause Disney shield, etc.

panki wrote:@SoloSideCousin.....I like your theory and can see some possibilities with it though it is purely head canon   ....of course it all depends on when he became Luke's apprentice...but I can imagine a scenario where he had to leave his teenage love to go train with Luke so he resents his family....maybe she was from some warrior clan and had a younger sister who got kidnapped when she was 5-6 years old....then Snoke gets his gf killed and Kylo falls to the dark side...he wears her helmet to honour her memory and lives like a dead person till her younger sister returns into his life....like a 'rey' of sunshine....  

Headcanon is fun, isn't it?  It gets your creative juices flowing with the possibilities! :-)

OMG! The wearing of the helmet is so much like that Korean drama I mentioned. He kept a memento of his lost love too. And of course, Snoke would blame her death on the Jedi! And he would be extremely resentful to have to leave her. To make the timeline work, maybe she would be killed after he is sent away, but it is only later that he finds out who is responsible, but he holds himself at fault for leaving her. The Rey part is so much like the ending of Tess of the d'Ubervilles.  Where's our resident Gothic goddess @AnneNeville? You must consult here! :-)

The confusion about his timeline really does open a lot of doors over what happened to him. :-)

vaderito wrote:You guys are seriously killing it in this thread! Such insightful, intelligent discussion that even goes deep into some very serious, dark real life concerns.

Reynak wrote:


This puts what he did for Rey, unmasking for her, in a new light, how important it is for a man whose face no one has seen in years. Only Snoke has had this right for years and he taks to his grandfather's mask wearing his, which is terrible.

I'm amazed at the quality of Driver's acting, because that scene where Hux sees his face speaks volumes, he is so ashamed it is unbelieavable. He unmasks for Han, but Han is his father, I agree no one but Snoke has seen his face in years and Adam's performance conveys exactly that. His unmasking for Rey is an extraordinary event for this guy,i it's pivotal for the plot and for him. The HD gifs show his eyes nearly teary when he looks at her for the first time without his mask, and this is because for him, that's incredibly important.

And then and we have to hear all those people saying he shouldn't have unmasked for her, they didn't understand anything.

They don't understand because they still believe ST is about OT characters and new ones are guests on OT character's show. TFA isn't about Han but Rey and Kylo and Finn. Therefore, unmasking for Rey is far more important than unmasking for Han. Second unmasking serves to show how big deal first unmasking was since Rey is not his family. And yet he cared to show her his face that he hides from everyone except Snoke. So emotional element was strongly implied as the reason for unmasking because emotional element was the reason for showing himself to Han.

Also, teary eyes = Ring Composition. Vader teared up when he saw his son with his own eyes. That's something we tend to forget about Kylo's unmasking, that it isn't just meant for Rey to see he isn't a "creatchah in a maaask" but is also meant for him to see her with his own eyes.

@Darth Dingleberry

I think Ren being "seduced by the Light" is a narrative stroke of genius. It becomes a very powerful story when the Light isn't merely vague "goodness" or "doing the right thing", but basically life itself, intertwined with sexuality. A metaphorical seduction meets a literal seduction. Even by itself, sexual passion is a powerful driving force in a narrative; but combine it with all this and BOOM. It's magic.

Bravo. Also, speaking of "life itself". He is seduced by Rey's Light and her Force sound happens to be heartbeat aka life itself. This ship writes itself.

As for Creeper Snoke, I can't diagnose a fictional character like Kylo. But even with Disney shield, I think that rotting corpse such as Snoke touching a child either through the Force or physically (hand shake, for example) is meant to put some horrific scenarios in one's head because of how repulsive it all is. They didn't play with this subtext in Ani and Palpatine case because Ani was with the Jedi, Palpatine looked regular and he never tried to stun Anakin's emotional growth and keep him in child-like state. But that's what Snoke does with Kylo and one cannot escape feeling that there's something far more sinister than let on. It's sick. They don't beat you over the head with it and it flies over many heads but they definitely put some food for thought in that vile relationship. Oh and Snoke's occasionally lascivious snarl "Bring her to meeee". Ugh. Yeah, there's something going on in there that JJ kind of wants you to see but not be completely sure if that's what you're seeing. Cause Disney shield, etc.

You are so right about the bolded, every word. It's the new players show, and it is about "his own eyes."

Regarding Creeper Snoke, I don't think anybody was really trying to diagnose Kylo. Speaking just for myself, I interpret the combination of Snoke the childhood manipulator coupled with Kylo's covering up and real anxiety at even Hux seeing his face as possibly indicating a scenario a he** of lot darker than "he covers up in that repressive 'Knights Templar for the Force'" kind of way. And I completely agree with you that all that Snoke repulsiveness and dependency-creating and the "seduction" and "purity" and "bring her to me" language indicates something really bad happened. A lot of people won't see it, but I am sure that JJ is okay with some of us interpreting this Snoke/Kylo relationship as that vile. He wouldn've mentioned how Snoke got in when Ben was a kid because Leia and Han were preoccupied, a typical situation with predators, if he didn't. In fact, that makes me think about how Snoke was supposed to be a woman at some point. Talk about kicking the Disney shield out of the way there. That subtext would have been really hard to cover up if Kylo was all compliant to some powerful woman. It would have tainted the Rey/Kylo pure relationship thing in a way too ... especially if she was some Sharon Stone type ... like Snoke being some evil siren tempting him or something. That doesn't happen here regardless how abusive Snoke has been to him, because any connection with utterly repulsive Snoke is utterly incomprehensible at any level. It cannot be interpreted as anything but abusive. I personally would find a relationship with a woman Snoke to be equally abusive, but the GA might not, especially if she was good looking. But with Snoke being so gross at least you can go either way. He can just be an evil old wizard leading Ben astray or he can be that *plus* a child predator, depending on the viewer. In other words, Snoke's grossness does provide some GA deniability of him being a physical child predator if they don't want to think about it.

@SoloSideCousin

Speaking just for myself, I interpret the combination of Snoke the childhood manipulator coupled with Kylo's covering up and real anxiety at even Hux seeing his face as possibly indicating a scenario a he** of lot darker than "he covers up in that repressive 'Knights Templar for the Force'" kind of way. And I completely agree with you that all that Snoke repulsiveness and dependency-creating and the "seduction" and "purity" and "bring her to me" language indicates something really bad happened. A lot of people won't see it, but I am sure that JJ is okay with some of us interpreting this Snoke/Kylo relationship as that vile.

Yeah, that's the thing. He kinda put all clues without saying anything or showing anything but if you get shivers down your spine that's OK because they want you to get them. If you catch on them. No big deal if you don't. It's meant to be seen/understood by exact audiences they want to see them and not to be seen/understood by exact audiences that they don't want to see them.

He can just be an evil old wizard leading Ben astray or he can be that *plus* a child predator, depending on the viewer. In other words, Snoke's grossness does provide some GA deniability of him being a physical child predator if they don't want to think about it.

Exactly. It's very clever thing, IMO. Give deeper content for thinking crowd while the rest can enjoy it as a trope from familiar fairytales (enchanted Prince/ess, Evil Wizard).

panki wrote:@SoloSideCousin.....I like your theory and can see some possibilities with it though it is purely head canon   ....of course it all depends on when he became Luke's apprentice...but I can imagine a scenario where he had to leave his teenage love to go train with Luke so he resents his family....maybe she was from some warrior clan and had a younger sister who got kidnapped when she was 5-6 years old....then Snoke gets his gf killed and Kylo falls to the dark side...he wears her helmet to honour her memory and lives like a dead person till her younger sister returns into his life....like a 'rey' of sunshine....  

I'm sorry, but no please. Rey as replacement goldfish for some fridged character just takes the focus off Rey (explaining some previous love for Kylo is just as bad as doing it for Luke. It can be done, see Inuyasha, but Kikyo is a huge part of the story)

yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?

vaderito wrote:yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?

::imagines Kylo's inner monologue while reading Rey's mind and looking at her lips::
Do you think he was pondering the mechanics of how to kiss without bumping noses or something?

vaderito wrote:yeah, I don't buy that either. Kylo didn't have anyone, hence his wonder at finding Rey. C'mon, give AD some credit for acting Kylo's awakening so wide-eyed and child-like. Experienced man or even a man with lost love doesn't act like that. It's hard to explain w/o legal gifs but when he looks at her, at her lips and face it doesn't strike me as "I want to kiss her cause I know how much I liked it before" but as " I wonder what kissing is like. I so want to kiss her". Like, he never thought about it until he found her and suddenly he thinks and wants all kinds of things that he didn't experience. Does that make sense?

Yes, I agree completely. And it plays so well into the fairytale/idealistic nature of Star Wars in general- like you can't have your princess-in-a-tower!Kylo mourning a list love. Or a coming of age with an experienced man. It doesn't make sense.

@AnneNeville Well, his nose is huge so bumping is likely top of his list of concerns.

@Moonjump05 Princess-in-a-tower!Kylo will be kissed by Hero Rey. If they keep up with fairytale tropes, than the kiss will give him life, revive him like Snow White/Sleeping Beauty kisses.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Reynak wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

In fact, this is exactly that I thought although I was cautios to word it because it may be too much and this is something really serious and sad, but yes, I agree with you completely. We won't see anything but it's there, that boy is controlled by Snoke as if he had him on a leash. When Han tries to touch him on the catwalk, when he comes near him, Kylo backs away slightly, just like a mistreated anymal, and his eyes widen, as if expecting physical punishment. That screams abuse to me, not by Han, of course, but by Snoke.

And then we have him dressed like that, covered from head to toe like that, hiding his body's shape like that (so much padding, so many layers of fabric, long robes, that's too much). Add the word "seduced by Snoke" and you have it, that suggests something sexual which would explain why he gives out that virgin vibe. And that is not unheard of in sects and some "religious" communities as regards kids, unfortunately, it's the opposite.

Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Oh man! You are so right with the two young and *beautiful* commanders.  Both Kylo and Hux are absolutely beautiful young men.  Oh yeah, that subtext is there.  I agree with all of this post.  I just wrote a massive post getting into it with a trigger warning.

I've read your post and loved it. Well, the topic is really hard, so I can't say talking about something so terrible is enjoyable, but it's honest, and this is what the movie suggests as subtext. You've nearly made me cry, in fact my eyes got wet while I was reading, especially when you said he unmasked for Rey because he thought that perhaps she would be safe for him, that he could be safe with her. He doesn't expect her to save him, as he no longer has hope or thinks anyone will come to his rescue. But he thinks that, maybe, he can be safe with her and this is so heart-breaking that it moved me in an emotional level. You showed some doubts later in the post, but I think here there is where you have your answer, an answer for all of us.

Another reason I think he was abused, and this probably started very soon, is what he says to his father on that catwalk:

Han: BEN!
Kylo Ren: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.
Han: [slowly walking towards Ren] Take off that mask. You don't need it.
Kylo Ren: What do you think you'll see if I do?
Han: The face of my son.
Kylo Ren: [removes his mask] Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.

He's been waiting for a long time, but why? Many thought that he was waiting for this day to kill his father because he is a heartless killer but his face shows the opposite when he cries and suffers so much. He didn't want to do this, he never did. He tried to avoid meeting Han in SK and perhaps also in Takodana when he left so quickly taking Rey with him, he avoided him because he knew there was no way Snoke would allow him to let Han go unharmed.

What does he mean when he says he's been waiting for so long? I think he's been waiting for his father to come and save him from the Dark, to set him free from Snoke, and that Darkness and Snoke's influence are a metaphor for abuse, this young man was sexualy abused as a kid.

When Han asks him to come home with him, Ben says it's too late. And it's too late because Han could have saved him years ago but now he is too damaged. They will never spell this out in the movie, but I think what you explained is what is implied, your first take on Ben's story is the right one, the most chilling take, unfortunately.

Reynak wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Reynak wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

Reynak wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@BastiallaBey,I'm 100% sure Rey's a virgin.She didn't like Finn touching her and in the Before The Awakening novel it's mentioned that Rey never works with other scavengers because she only trusts herself so virgin for sure.

You are probably right, she's described as a loner in that book and Finn is her first friend. If it wasn't a Disney movie, I'd say Rey would have had to do some pretty tragic things in order to survive as a young woman on Jakku but clearly that's not going to be part of her character's canon.

Yeah, I agree that she would probably have suffered nasty experiences if she lived in the real world but the same could probably be said about him if he has been manipulated since childhood by an evil controlling adult who later groomed him because he's such a pure specimen of Force holder. This sounds very creepy to me. Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark side, Leia chooses this worlds and Kylo says to Snoke he won't be seduced. They choose this world twice.

This is a Disney movie, so I'd say both are virgins, if this was gritty fantasy, or even real life, I'd guess they both could have suffered some type of molestation as kids. His looking so restrained and repressed and her feeling so unnerved when people touch her would suggest that.

@Reynak In past writings, I have noted that Kylo Ren's behavior and self-loathing reminds me strongly of several young men I have known who had been abused as children (and I knew or strongly suspected abuse of a sexual nature). Even his super-strong attachment to Rey connects with my experiences in that area. A very chaotic and painful relationship with sexuality was a side effect of their bad past experiences. Frankly, I think the implication of abuse (whether mental or sexual) is hard to escape, considering the way they set up the story between Ben Solo and predator-Snoke.

I'd like to give my imaginary Kylo a bit more control over his body and consent, I guess. Let him have an awakening.

In fact, this is exactly that I thought although I was cautios to word it because it may be too much and this is something really serious and sad, but yes, I agree with you completely. We won't see anything but it's there, that boy is controlled by Snoke as if he had him on a leash. When Han tries to touch him on the catwalk, when he comes near him, Kylo backs away slightly, just like a mistreated anymal, and his eyes widen, as if expecting physical punishment. That screams abuse to me, not by Han, of course, but by Snoke.

And then we have him dressed like that, covered from head to toe like that, hiding his body's shape like that (so much padding, so many layers of fabric, long robes, that's too much). Add the word "seduced by Snoke" and you have it, that suggests something sexual which would explain why he gives out that virgin vibe. And that is not unheard of in sects and some "religious" communities as regards kids, unfortunately, it's the opposite.

Why does that creeper have those two young guys (Hux and Kylo) at his beck and call instead of having older commanders by his side? He probably has them too, but showing us those attractive youths in preeminent positions in Snoke's ranks gives a very bad feeling. Subtext again, but I think it is there.

Oh man! You are so right with the two young and *beautiful* commanders.  Both Kylo and Hux are absolutely beautiful young men.  Oh yeah, that subtext is there.  I agree with all of this post.  I just wrote a massive post getting into it with a trigger warning.

I've read your post and loved it. Well, the topic is really hard, so I can't say what we are talking about here is enjoyable, but it's honest, this is what the movie suggests as subtext. You've nearmy made me cry, in fact my eyes got wet while I was reading, especially when you said he unmasked for Rey because he thought that perhaps he would be safe for him, that he could be safe with her. He doen't expect her to save him, as he no longer has hope or thinks anyone will come to his rescue. But he thinks, that, maybe, he can be safe with her and this is so heart-breaking that it moved me in an emotional level. You showed some doubts later in the post, but I think here this is where you have your answer, an answer for us.

Another reason I think he was abused and this prbably started very soon is what he says to his father on that catwalk:

Han: BEN!
Kylo Ren: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.
Han: [slowly walking towards Ren] Take off that mask. You don't need it.
Kylo Ren: What do you think you'll see if I do?
Han: The face of my son.
Kylo Ren: [removes his mask] Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.

He's been waiting for a long time, but why? Many thought that he was waiting for this day to kill his father because he is a heartless killer but his face shows the opposite, he cries and suffers, he didn't want to do this, he never did. He tried to avoid meeting Han in SK and perahaps also in Takodana when he left so quickly taking Rey with him, he avoided him because he knew there was no way Snoke would allow him to let Han go unharmed.

What does he mean when he says he's been waiting for so long? I think he's been waiting for his father to come and save him, from the Dark, to set him free from Snoke and that Darkness and Snoke's influence are a metaphor for abuse, this young man was sexualy abused as a kid.

When Han asks him to come home with him, Ben says it's too late. And it's too late because Han could have saved him years ago but now he is too damaged. They will never spell this out in the movie, but I think what you explained is what is implied, your first take on Ben's story, the most chilling take, unfortunately.

Now, the hate for Snoke just went up to a whole new level, that old creepy perv
Also didn't Kylo have a GPS chip on his belt, why he have to have that if he's a high commander but for Snoke to control his every movement and to keep in places