Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

Darth_Awakened wrote:

panki wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

The Force Awakens did tell us that Han and Leia’s son, Ben Solo, turned to the dark side and murdered his fellow students at Luke’s new Jedi academy – then went on to join the First Order under the name Kylo Ren. But it didn’t explain why Luke felt it was better to isolate himself than continuing to fight his former apprentice.

Hamill hints that Luke has begun to doubt his own connection to the Force, wondering if he has been misreading it all this time.

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says. “And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

I still wonder what was the trigger for Ben's darkness?

@Darth_Awakened

Maybe Ben was told Anakin died during order 66, the same story told to the rest of the galaxy...the Vader reveal must have led him to believe that he has to follow Vader's path to the letter and transcend it to achieve success where Vader failed.

@panki

The chosen one thing really confused me earlier today. I thought we're done with that.
The idea of "to finish what you started" has definitely another possibility now. To follow Vader to the letter and somehow bring the balance.

So, if Luke believed Ben was The Chosen One he was the one who laid the burden of becoming like Anakin (Vader) on Ben's back, unintentionally of course.

@Darth_Awakened

If Ben actually was/is some sort of "chosen one", it could also explain why he was targeted by Snoke... The classic trope of trying to prevent a prophecy from happening by keeping your "enemies" close...

Moonjump05 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:While I am thrilled to see YET ANOTHER picture of Kylo that looks like he's been crying, there is very little emphasis on him here other than this being a Rey/Luke fest.  One person, the only legacy Skywalker child in this trilogy, is being greatly omitted/hidden once again.  Obviously we know he's important or else his face wouldn't be as bold as it is on the teaser poster, but I know the Reywalkers are going to run with this article like there's no tomorrow.

@Acritiqua I too am grateful the part of Luke losing Ben is being touched upon because if it hadn't, that wouldn't quite feel realistic.  Of course Luke is going to have it weighing on him heavily over what happened.

I will say that the ONE line they put into about Kylo revolves around his fascination with the scavenger, so there is that...  

@IoJovi

Luke/Rey fest is what they can play up right now. Everyone knows she went to Achy-too. Not everyone is aware that Kylo is Coming.

Besides a couple of contextless pictures it all sounds like act one stuff.

@Moonjump05

It's pretty obvious to me they're hiding Kylo like the most valuable treasure.

Also I wouldn't be surprised that sad puppy Kylo scene came very early in the movie, after he crashes the helmet. (He's sitting at the FO facility in that photo, no doubt now because of lights)

Darth_Awakened wrote:

panki wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

The Force Awakens did tell us that Han and Leia’s son, Ben Solo, turned to the dark side and murdered his fellow students at Luke’s new Jedi academy – then went on to join the First Order under the name Kylo Ren. But it didn’t explain why Luke felt it was better to isolate himself than continuing to fight his former apprentice.

Hamill hints that Luke has begun to doubt his own connection to the Force, wondering if he has been misreading it all this time.

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says. “And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

I still wonder what was the trigger for Ben's darkness?

@Darth_Awakened

Maybe Ben was told Anakin died during order 66, the same story told to the rest of the galaxy...the Vader reveal must have led him to believe that he has to follow Vader's path to the letter and transcend it to achieve success where Vader failed.

@panki

The chosen one thing really confused me earlier today. I thought we're done with that.
The idea of "to finish what you started" has definitely another possibility now. To follow Vader to the letter and somehow bring the balance.

So, if Luke believed Ben was The Chosen One he was the one who laid the burden of becoming like Anakin (Vader) on Ben's back, unintentionally of course.

@Darth_Awakened

Funny, I am not puzzled at all by the Chosen One. I always went with the idea that each generation has its chosen one like a passing down of the Chosen One torch from one Force Dalai Lama to the next one if you will. So I always imagined that Luke would see Ben as the next one on the list, being the next generation Skywalker, and that was a burden on Ben's shoulders. Not explaining fully his descent to the dark side but certainly not helping. I never realized that there were different views on this.

The marketing may be Luke, Luke, Luke, but the fact is that the backstory that Rey will be "unpacking" is all about Kylo! And it's better than we could have imagined, because Luke's trauma isn't about being betrayed by his wicked ungrateful nephew who he always thought was a bit dodgy and untrustworthy, but about losing his beloved nephew, the one he had pinned all his hopes upon and the one he had basically reared to become some kind of a prophesied saviour figure (?).

That's huge.

And that explains why Luke feels responsible for what happened to Ben, too. So he raised Ben to bear the burden of some prophecy, apparently. Now Ben is burdened by the responsibility to "finish what Vader started" - presumably for the same reason.

There's something big in that story and that, my friends, is the very thing that will connect Kylo, Luke, and Rey. I'm like 100% sure this is all about a prophecy that "misread may have been", or at least misread (and twisted by Snoke) to the point that things got f***ed up along the way and Kylo ended up where he is, whilst still burdened by some heavy purpose that is making him miserable and believing "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it."

As the resident big believer in a prophecy, I'm VERY excited about this info.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

panki wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

The Force Awakens did tell us that Han and Leia’s son, Ben Solo, turned to the dark side and murdered his fellow students at Luke’s new Jedi academy – then went on to join the First Order under the name Kylo Ren. But it didn’t explain why Luke felt it was better to isolate himself than continuing to fight his former apprentice.

Hamill hints that Luke has begun to doubt his own connection to the Force, wondering if he has been misreading it all this time.

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says. “And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

I still wonder what was the trigger for Ben's darkness?

@Darth_Awakened

Maybe Ben was told Anakin died during order 66, the same story told to the rest of the galaxy...the Vader reveal must have led him to believe that he has to follow Vader's path to the letter and transcend it to achieve success where Vader failed.

@panki

The chosen one thing really confused me earlier today. I thought we're done with that.
The idea of "to finish what you started" has definitely another possibility now. To follow Vader to the letter and somehow bring the balance.

So, if Luke believed Ben was The Chosen One he was the one who laid the burden of becoming like Anakin (Vader) on Ben's back, unintentionally of course.

@Darth_Awakened

If Ben actually was/is some sort of "chosen one", it could also explain why he was targeted by Snoke... The classic trope of trying to prevent a prophecy from happening by keeping your "enemies" close...

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh definitely that's one of possibilities. I was really surprised by all of this Chosen One stuff. And you already mentioned: Ben falls in Rey's place is becoming more and more important.

Darth Dingbat wrote:The marketing may be Luke, Luke, Luke, but the fact is that the backstory that Rey will be "unpacking" is all about Kylo! And it's better than we could have imagined, because Luke's trauma isn't about being betrayed by his wicked ungrateful nephew who he always thought was a bit dodgy and untrustworthy, but about losing his beloved nephew, the one he had pinned all his hopes upon and the one he had basically reared to become some kind of a prophesied saviour figure (?).

That's huge.

And that explains why Luke feels responsible for what happened to Ben, too. So he raised Ben to bear the burden of some prophecy, apparently. Now Ben is burdened by the responsibility to "finish what Vader started" - presumably for the same reason.

There's something big in that story and that, my friends, is the very thing that will connect Kylo, Luke, and Rey. I'm like 100% sure this is all about a prophecy that "misread may have been", or at least misread (and twisted by Snoke) to the point that things got f***ed up along the way and Kylo ended up where he is, whilst still burdened by some heavy purpose that is making him miserable and believing "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it."

As the resident big believer in a prophecy, I'm VERY excited about this info.

@Darth Dingbat

I mentioned it a while back, but the vibe that I'm getting from all of this, and the likelihood of it being interconnected is that it's increasing the chances of the "Ben fell in Rey's place" thing. Intertwined destinies, indeed.

SanghaRen wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

panki wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

The Force Awakens did tell us that Han and Leia’s son, Ben Solo, turned to the dark side and murdered his fellow students at Luke’s new Jedi academy – then went on to join the First Order under the name Kylo Ren. But it didn’t explain why Luke felt it was better to isolate himself than continuing to fight his former apprentice.

Hamill hints that Luke has begun to doubt his own connection to the Force, wondering if he has been misreading it all this time.

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says. “And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

I still wonder what was the trigger for Ben's darkness?

@Darth_Awakened

Maybe Ben was told Anakin died during order 66, the same story told to the rest of the galaxy...the Vader reveal must have led him to believe that he has to follow Vader's path to the letter and transcend it to achieve success where Vader failed.

@panki

The chosen one thing really confused me earlier today. I thought we're done with that.
The idea of "to finish what you started" has definitely another possibility now. To follow Vader to the letter and somehow bring the balance.

So, if Luke believed Ben was The Chosen One he was the one who laid the burden of becoming like Anakin (Vader) on Ben's back, unintentionally of course.

@Darth_Awakened

Funny, I am not puzzled at all by the Chosen One. I always went with the idea that each generation has its chosen one like a passing down of the Chosen One torch from one Force Dalai Lama to the next one if you will. So I always imagined that Luke would see Ben as the next one on the list, being the next generation Skywalker, and that was a burden on Ben's shoulders. Not explaining fully his descent to the dark side but certainly not helping. I never realized that there were different views on this.

@SanghaRen

I didn't. And you know why? Because of Leia's words: "That's why I sent him to train with Luke". I had a headcanon in my mind that Ben was sent to Luke for being very powerful with the force but very unstable. Nothing suggested to me The Chosen One.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

panki wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

The Force Awakens did tell us that Han and Leia’s son, Ben Solo, turned to the dark side and murdered his fellow students at Luke’s new Jedi academy – then went on to join the First Order under the name Kylo Ren. But it didn’t explain why Luke felt it was better to isolate himself than continuing to fight his former apprentice.

Hamill hints that Luke has begun to doubt his own connection to the Force, wondering if he has been misreading it all this time.

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says. “And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

I still wonder what was the trigger for Ben's darkness?

@Darth_Awakened

Maybe Ben was told Anakin died during order 66, the same story told to the rest of the galaxy...the Vader reveal must have led him to believe that he has to follow Vader's path to the letter and transcend it to achieve success where Vader failed.

@panki

The chosen one thing really confused me earlier today. I thought we're done with that.
The idea of "to finish what you started" has definitely another possibility now. To follow Vader to the letter and somehow bring the balance.

So, if Luke believed Ben was The Chosen One he was the one who laid the burden of becoming like Anakin (Vader) on Ben's back, unintentionally of course.

@Darth_Awakened

If Ben actually was/is some sort of "chosen one", it could also explain why he was targeted by Snoke... The classic trope of trying to prevent a prophecy from happening by keeping your "enemies" close...

@ISeeAnIsland

Yep, exactly.

And you know what, it also makes me wonder yet again about the scenario that I've been harping about for Rey - the Oedipus one. Trying to thwart a prophecy by getting rid of a child who was prophesied to grow up into something important (or bad?). But the prophecy won't be thwarted, and the child survives and grows up oblivious of her own importane.

Let's say Ben was supposed to be the Chosen One, and Rey was supposed to be anti-Chosen One, and people tried to prevent those things from happening - and thus shook their roles topsy-turvy. But in the end they will unite and fight side by side, because the prophecy was ultimately about balance, not about complete light or complete darkness?

Headcanon: I'd love for Rey to get a vision of herself as she "should" have become, a dark and powerful destroyer goddess. That would be a way to show us Dark!Rey without it actually happening.

I've been thinking about it and them both being the chosen ones sounds like an actual thing that could happen. A major theme in each SW trilogy is about there always being two. In the prequels it was about the rule of two, with Anakin and Palpatine. Originals had Luke and Leia being the hope. There is another. With all the yin yang symbolism, the light/darkness/balance, interwined destinies, the costume parallels, the way that Rey's replacing the spot that Ben Solo left...would it really be outside the realm of possibility that they're BOTH the chosen ones?

Or the point is that the "Chosen One" notion is bullsith.

You need duality, fluxus, continuity. One person alone cannot achieve balance.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Headcanon: I'd love for Rey to get a vision of herself as she "should" have become, a dark and powerful destroyer goddess. That would be a way to show us Dark!Rey without it actually happening.

@Darth Dingbat

You guys are lifting my spirits with all of this.  Keep it coming!!!   

On the surface this just looked like another Rey/Luke fest, but it has to go much deeper than that.  I always figured Rey would "unpack" everything that went down, that in turn would put Ben in a very sympathetic light, and this falls in line.  Thank you for this!

I still think there's going to be something more than Luke's guilt - like he ultimately WAS responsible for *something*.  Perhaps he put Ben in harm's way thinking he was strong enough to handle it, and Ben just couldn't bear that kind of pressure.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Headcanon: I'd love for Rey to get a vision of herself as she "should" have become, a dark and powerful destroyer goddess. That would be a way to show us Dark!Rey without it actually happening.

@Darth Dingbat

Oh yeah, that's totally been a headcanon of mine ever since the "Ben fell in Rey's place" rumor came out (especially paired with the rumors of more Forceback-type sequences).

If that's the case, I'd kind of be surprised if a shot of that doesn't make it into any trailer (as it seems like kind of a classic way to mislead the audience).

Oh my God, Luke is a human person who makes mistakes and not an all powerful Jedi lord who does no wrong?? and also ( doesn't have ) has 20 wives and 1 million kids? Star Wars is RUINED.

So catching up. Besides the Tempest idea, the way they're describing Rey, Luke, and Ben makes me think we're going to see some kind of Eugene O'Neil scenario on Ache-to. Also they're started the prep work of letting fans know, it's not going to be a Luke nostalgia fest. Like they know that as with what happened with Han (which the writers and actor wanted), there are going to be some traditionalist fans who are going to freak the F**K out over what happens with Luke on a level of the PT.

Not really sure how any of this disproves the Dark Luke scenario discussions we've had before. Which come straight from the backstory of the OT's production and Kasdan wanting Luke to end up a little weird/not fit for normal human society because of what he's experienced. But which also were discussions we've had about them exploring that scenario via Ben, where MH had said he thought at one point Luke might end up going with the Dark Side after the Vader reveal. We've talked about disillusioned Luke, depressed Luke, and Luke who got in over his head and had things go wrong despite his good intentions. So far that's what EW is hinting at. Luke did to Ben what Obi-Wan did to him and in this situation, they're exploring the alternate scenario. And it's compounded, Ben didn't just get fed a lie about what happened 1 generation before him, but 2 generations and the entire basis of the very public position he gets to occupy because of the family he was born into. Which again, we've had discussions here about Bloodline and it sounds like:

1) While Luke and Leia let it be known that they were siblings and who their biological parents were, they kept everything else a secret. Han was likely the only person who knew the full story that Vader was the persona their father took as part of his betrayal/power grab and that he killed the Emperor after finally deciding to put the interests of his children's well being ahead of his own ambitions/demons.
So there's a public version story of how both the Emperor and Vader died, but Luke survived which omits Vader's actual motivations. Or shorter version, I agree with @panki's take : )

2) For reasons mostly to do with Leia's hatred/trauma and Luke's magical thinking, Ben wasn't told the truth about what happened.

3) Given the public story, most people believe that the supposed Chosen One was betrayed/murdered before he could do anything to 'balance the Force.' And Luke may have thought that it would be making things right by giving that role to Ben as his legacy/responsibility as a Fresh Start for the galaxy/New Republic.

4) Except that as shown in the book, not coming to terms with the past, either ones' private/family history or a society not coming to terms with its own demons (I love the term the Germans have Vergangenheitsbewältigung, which we sure as Hell could use here in the States need badly), have a way of coming back with a vengeance.

Also in terms of very interesting:

5) Rey's abandonment issues coming up. She's like Luke and Ben, on the run from various personal issues related to family and that whole island scenario is going to force all of them to face it.

6) Finn waking up and wanting to find her/get the Heck out of Dodge. Not a surprise, dude admitted to Han he was only helping the Resistance because his motivation was to rescue her. When he wakes up and finds out that she's headed back into the eye of the storm, after everything that happened on SKB, he's still going to panic. Even moreso because now they both have some high profile targets on their backs. But it sounds like circumstances interfere, he meets Rose, and yet again learns that he can't run away from the fight. If you think of TFA as the Wizard of Oz - Maz is like Glenda the Good and she tells Rey, Finn, and Han exactly what they need to be told. For Rey and Han, it was about either letting go or taking responsibility of your family obligations. For Finn, it was that he couldn't run from the fight, that he had a responsibility. So that's likely what his challenge is going to be.

6) Kylo/Ben is fascinated by Rey, you say? Interesting choice of words there. Also the bit with Finn wanting to find her and run away together - sorry this just makes it sound even more like the fight between those two was like two guys having a bar fight over a girl. Like they both basically asked Rey to run off with them. Which she didn't, she teamed up instead with Chewie to go off on a quest (short answer, Chewie's the real ladies' man in this situation).

Darth_Awakened wrote:

I didn't. And you know why? Because of Leia's words: "That's why I sent him to train with Luke". I had a headcanon in my mind that Ben was sent to Luke for being very powerful with the force but very unstable. Nothing suggested to me The Chosen One.

@Darth_Awakened

I understand that. I guess I never saw Leia's pov and Luke's pov as excluding each other because in spite of being twins, they do have a different approach to life and people. Luke is the ultimate believer - or he was. Leia is more factual. Ben always stroke me as crushed down by having to live up to the legacy, taking into account that there might be some projecting from my side. I guess I also don't see the chosen one as being automatically linked with a prophecy, but more Luke naturally believing that his nephew was meant to be his successor and hence a sort of chosen one.

The fact that Luke thought Ben was the chosen one (and not his supposedly long lost daughter) SHOULD tell people that Rey ain't a Skywalker. Unless they're going to go through the backstory of how Luke had a one night stand and the mother didn't tell him she was pregnant. Of course they'll look at the surface things and think it confirms that she is.

snufkin wrote:

6) Finn waking up and wanting to find her/get the Heck out of Dodge. Not a surprise, dude admitted to Han he was only helping the Resistance because his motivation was to rescue her. When he wakes up and finds out that she's headed back into the eye of the storm, after everything that happened on SKB, he's still going to panic. Even moreso because now they both have some high profile targets on their backs. But it sounds like circumstances interfere, he meets Rose, and yet again learns that he can't run away from the fight. If you think of TFA as the Wizard of Oz - Maz is like Glenda the Good and she tells Rey, Finn, and Han exactly what they need to be told. For Rey and Han, it was about either letting go or taking responsibility of your family obligations. For Finn, it was that he couldn't run from the fight, that he had a responsibility. So that's likely what his challenge is going to be.

@snufkin

I thought that was really interesting, too. Although it's definitely the logical move for his character. Does anyone want to place any bets that Finn's waking words will be, "Where's Rey?"

nemapasara wrote:The fact that Luke thought Ben was the chosen one (and not his supposedly long lost daughter) SHOULD tell people that Rey ain't a Skywalker. Unless they're going to go through the backstory of how Luke had a one night stand and the mother didn't tell him she was pregnant. Of course they'll look at the surface things and think it confirms that she is.

@nemapasara

Space condoms are like Luke's missing hand. We don't know what happened to them!

Darth_Awakened wrote:

@Darth_Awakened

I bet that picture is after he smashes the helmet.
TLJ should be called "Kylo's Terrible No Good Very Bad Day"

ReyofLightSide wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

@Darth_Awakened

I bet that picture is after he smashes the helmet.
TLJ should be called "Kylo's Terrible No Good Very Bad Day"

@ReyofLightSide

Interesting that there's no cape in that Kylo picture, and his hair obscures his hairline, so we can't see if he has the stitches or not there.

ReyofLightSide wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

@Darth_Awakened

I bet that picture is after he smashes the helmet.
TLJ should be called "Kylo's Terrible No Good Very Bad Day"

@ReyofLightSide

I bet you're right!  He has this look about him - his eyes are glassy like he's either just got crying or is about to, and I can also picture him panting heavily.  He may look like a puppy dog, but I'd be a bit apprehensive of approaching him in that moment...

ReyofLightSide wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

@Darth_Awakened

I bet that picture is after he smashes the helmet.
TLJ should be called "Kylo's Terrible No Good Very Bad Day"

@ReyofLightSide

I can see pain, tenderness and guilt in his facial expression and eyes. This s not a villain, but a traumated character who literally is confused, isolated and torned apart emotionally and physically.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

@Darth_Awakened

I bet that picture is after he smashes the helmet.
TLJ should be called "Kylo's Terrible No Good Very Bad Day"

@ReyofLightSide

Interesting that there's no cape in that Kylo picture, and his hair obscures his hairline, so we can't see if he has the stitches or not there.

@ISeeAnIsland

The wound looks more recent than in other shots, so that makes me think this is after a talk with Snoke.

And they have released another photo of him crying/about to cry. He's totally going to be redeemed.

I do like all the sad Kylo photos but I don't know what's happened to the luscious hair volume he had in TFA. What's happened?!?!
I'm even more sure now that we're not just getting Rey bringing Luke back, otherwise they've just given away the entire plot! Kylo is involved here in more ways than one!