What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

@Irina de France - granted Kylo is completely deluded when she first meets him, but he thinks that he's being chivalrous and rescuing her from those scumbags in the Resistance. And he'll likely show up in Ache-to where that's inverted, he is there to come to her defense with Luke being so weird/hostile.

snufkin wrote:@Irina de France - granted Kylo is completely deluded when she first meets him, but he thinks that he's being chivalrous and rescuing her from those scumbags in the Resistance. And he'll likely show up in Ache-to where that's inverted, he is there to come to her defense with Luke being so weird/hostile.

@snufkin

Not only that, but remember when those TLJ character posters came out and Daisy made a comment about Rey looking like Little Red Riding Hood? If they're going for that imagery, you'd think the Big Bad Wolf she has to fear is Kylo. But the one she has to be weary of is the Huntsman -Luke.

And then we can go and talk for hours about the sexual subtext in that story, hehe.

@Irina de France



That's why the books I thought about immediately after seeing TFA were Susannah Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, and Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber. Nobody is better at exploring the darkness and sexual subtext in fairy tales than the British. And I remember Carrie Fisher's Empire Strikes Back era quip to Rolling Stone that if it were up to her for there to be a sex scene, she's have it be Vader and Leia having an affair where "he'd do awful kinky things to her and she'd love it."

Ben destroyed it with his raw power and not because of greed but just an accident when his powers were out of control.

DarthRen wrote:Ben destroyed it with his raw power and not because of greed but just an accident when his powers were out of control.

@DarthRen

I am thinking this is going to be the case. The Vader reveal came out, Leia didn't get to him in time, and he went into a rage. He could also be reacting to the other students who come after him finding out about Vader.

Re-reading Bloodline because that's probably going to be part of the backstory and I'd guess what goes down at Uncle Luke's Bible Camp is going to be like how Leia is outed and betrayed by people she considers friends/allies. Including her friend whose family was harmed by Vader when he was a child. Guessing that the news reaches wherever Ben and Luke are, the reaction of the people they're with is violent and ugly, it may be the same group affiliated with LST's village, they try to attack them and something happens where Ben explodes out of anger/hurt because it's the culmination of feeling alienated from his family









Luke's Magical Thinking about Dear Old Dad probably didn't help





Luke taking his nephew off the grid and maybe getting involved in something weird or not what Leia thought he'd be doing



Still no idea how Snoke factors into this or the likely ideological rift that forms between Uncle and Nephew.

snufkin wrote:Re-reading Bloodline because that's probably going to be part of the backstory and I'd guess what goes down at Uncle Luke's Bible Camp is going to be like how Leia is outed and betrayed by people she considers friends/allies. Including her friend whose family was harmed by Vader when he was a child. Guessing that the news reaches wherever Ben and Luke are, the reaction of the people they're with is violent and ugly, it may be the same group affiliated with LST's village, they try to attack them and something happens where Ben explodes out of anger/hurt because it's the culmination of feeling alienated from his family

@snufkin

I liked Bloodline very much but am I the only one thinking the reactions were exaggerated?
Of course people will be shocked and angry - but her close friends and allies? Everybody knew she wasn't raised by Vader- neither were Luke.
So why does it matter?
If I found out my best friend is some descendant from Hitler or Stalin- it wouldn't matter to me.
I know it's in a Galaxy far far away but even with all that knowledge and technology they're still so backward regarding lineage?
As if being evil could be inherited. (Which I don't believe no matter what universe)

I was thinking about Ben's reaction to the "news". If he already felt some darkness in himself and struggling with his place and why he felt the way he is...plus Snokes early influence- well I could see how that ended badly.
I guess his classmates experienced/felt the darkness in him as well- hearing the news I could also picture some of them to turn on him.

Sorry for the OT.

@Night Huntress - I haven't gone back to the parts with Casterfo. But I remember it being that his father was an example of the type of everyday people who were hurt/killed by Vader's activities. So he snaps at the reveal because of the trauma he experienced. And haven't found it yet, but there was a comment in there along the lines of not trusting what Luke was up to given who their father was. IDK - people can turn into an angry mob with pitchforks a lot faster than we imagine.

I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

panki wrote:I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

@panki
@snufkin

Shouldn't we use spoilers if we go in so much detail about Bloodline?  

Spoiler:

Night Huntress wrote:

panki wrote:I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

@panki
@snufkin

Shouldn't we use spoilers if we go in so much detail about Bloodline?  

Spoiler:

@Night Huntress

Most of my post is common knowledge from the OT (Luke and Leia's achievements- rebel, death stars, jedi etc), not information from the Bloodline novel hence not necessary to use spoilers for it.

Night Huntress wrote:

panki wrote:I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

@panki
@snufkin

Shouldn't we use spoilers if we go in so much detail about Bloodline?  

Spoiler:

@Night Huntress

Haven't really read Bloodlines, but this sort of issue actually exists IRL specially with political families.

I get why people still wanted Leia dead despite her being a hero and everything having happened a long time ago and being raised by someone else. She's a politician, and basically, she can't really trust anyone. If someone ran for a position, you can bet on it that their opponents will have their backgrounds checked from where they first interned to where their parents were born.

And one this is for sure, oppositions will delight when they find anything incriminating in your past. Like if your parents did illegal drugs, or participated in crimes and such. These can all be used against any politician.

In Leia's case, Vader dealt such a huge damage to the galaxy and killed many people. Maybe those who want Leia dead still want revenge for their loved ones. Or maybe they just want to get her out of the picture. It's also a question of 'will she become like her father'?

Political dynasties are very common where I come from, and their dramas usually fill up our evening news programs like soap operas.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:
Haven't really read Bloodlines, but this sort of issue actually exists IRL specially with political families.

I get why people still wanted Leia dead despite her being a hero and everything having happened a long time ago and being raised by someone else. She's a politician, and basically, she can't really trust anyone. If someone ran for a position, you can bet on it that their opponents will have their backgrounds checked from where they first interned to where their parents were born.

And one this is for sure, oppositions will delight when they find anything incriminating in your past. Like if your parents did illegal drugs, or participated in crimes and such. These can all be used against any politician.

In Leia's case, Vader dealt such a huge damage to the galaxy and killed many people. Maybe those who want Leia dead still want revenge for their loved ones. Or maybe they just want to get her out of the picture. It's also a question of 'will she become like her father'?

Political dynasties are very common where I come from, and their dramas usually fill up our evening news programs like soap operas.

@Rei of Sunshine

I suppose that's true- I just thought it would be less an issue in more "evolved" society like in SW...well, on second thought they're still very antiquated in some ways despite of their advanced technology

Maybe I'm still used to the old EU where it wasn't that big of deal...

You also have the fact this is likely how Ben found out he was Vader's grandson. Not from his parents or uncle, but some other way, and that also sets him off.

panki wrote:I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

@panki

Thanks @panki, that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking is how the Vader reveal will affect Ben and explain what went down/caused his defection to the FO and the Darkside. We also know from the novel and cut dialogue that Korr Sella is on Hosnian Orime and killed during the attack because it wasn’t safe for Leia to go. One of her political enemies would’ve engineered a hit on her. And we’ve discussed before that possibly part of what Ben is doing is because the NR turned so violently against his mother (and the legacy of his grandmother) after a lifetime of service and sacrifice.

snufkin wrote:

panki wrote:I think Bloodline mentions that Leia barely managed to avoid being physically attacked on her way back to her office after the Vader reveal...and we have to remember that she was a famous rebel, part of the team that blew up two death stars, her brother was the jedi who brought down the Emperor, and she also spent years re-building the republic and serving the people....despite this she wasn't safe. Just imagine how people would have reacted to force sensitive jedi padawan Ben?

@panki

Thanks @panki, that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking is how the Vader reveal will affect Ben and explain what went down/caused his defection to the FO and the Darkside. We also know from the novel and cut dialogue that Korr Sella is on Hosnian Orime and killed during the attack because it wasn’t safe for Leia to go. One of her political enemies would’ve engineered a hit on her. And we’ve discussed before that possibly part of what Ben is doing is because the NR turned so violently against his mother (and the legacy of his grandmother) after a lifetime of service and sacrifice.

@snufkin

I could imagine that as the news filtered to Luke's Jedi academy, the students (and/or their parents) could turn against Ben, and /or Luke. That might take the form of attack, but it seems more likely that it would take the form of 'Flee'. Could be a split too. Let's say 6 students side with Ben, the others are against him. Could be as simple as, Kylo plus the other 6 students, fed up with being the subject of suspicion, decide to leave, but get caught trying to take lightsabers. A battle ensues and Kylo basically kills everyone with an out of control force action. He just wanted to escape but in the process inadvertenly proved to everyone that he was Vader-esque. He changed his name with his new family, the Knights of Ren, and wore a mask to hide his identity, and they went in search of lightabers and other artifacts, and that's how he encountered Snoke, who has to be the biggest Empire fanboy ever. Snoke convinced him that there was nothing wrong with being strong like Vader and that the Empire was actually good. He doesn't know any better, and having dealt with his parents bullshitting him, and the Republic turning against him, he embraces it.

It's only when he actually encounters Rey, and Han, and Leia, and, probably, Luke, that major doubt seeps in. With the Republic completely gone, all that's left is the Resistance, led by his mother, who was also cast out of the Republic. It serves Snoke to have Kylo be anti-resistance, but that's a harder leap for Kylo. His attraction to Rey seals the deal.

One of the spoilers (may be a crack spoiler) mentioned

Bloodline spoiler:

@fuhry -agreed. The news got out and Hell broke loose when people realized who Luke's father was and who Ben's grandfather was. It was something like the other students turned on them, there was a rift/battle, or Snoke was an opportunist and engineered whatever happened. But he's completely rejected everything he comes from, especially the religion and society because he feels betrayed by it. They've mentioned Three Outlaw Samurai as an influence and that movie is all about characters changing sides, especially when they start to gain sympathy/understanding with people from other groups and realize how corrupt a system is. I think we'll see that both with Kylo and Leia (and Rey switching sides from the uncle to the nephew) as part of the themes introduced in Bloodline.

I've actually written a brief meta regarding Kylo's reaction to hearing the news about Vader. Combined with the trailer footage of Luke's hand coming from beneath the wreckage, I've sort of refined my thoughts which seem to echo what several posters have said.

I think Ben had Snoke in his head from birth (if not before). The Star Wars Connection podcast made the point that the Force was "in a bad way" after the Battle of Endor. Please forgive me for not remembering which member said that. We've also heard that Ben was conceived very quickly after that battle and that Han actually thought it may have occurred on Endor with Leia saying on the Falcon. Regardless, Ben will be born very quickly after the end of the war. Wasn't he actually born the day that the Empire officially surrendered? So, here he is - an incredibly Force-sensitive child with parents who do not understand him. But I digress.

I think that Ben heard Snoke whispering in his head for years, molding him. And he held Snoke at bay - believing in his parents and his uncle. Then, he finds out that they have been lying to him his entire life. I can see him losing control and inadvertently killing any students who may have been there at the "not an Academy." If they were young, they may have been unable to save themselves, and Luke could have been in his own room, away from common dormitories or something.

I'm suggesting that Ben got the news, watched it, realized he'd been betrayed, lost control of his power, caused a massive tragedy, and then sank even further for Snoke to snap up and groom. Snoke had not lied to him about his grandfather; therefore, he thinks that Snoke is honest with him about other things. We know this is twisted, but it would explain what happened. Luke, in anger, may have even rejected Ben when he realized what Ben had done.

Just my two cents...

I was just thinking about this again and man, I'm so excited at the trailer's new hints that Kylo has some seriously out of control power. We may be wrong in the end with our new theories, but right now this feels like the formerly missing link to all of this that we've been waiting for. A few months ago, I and some others were theorizing that the destruction of the Jedi temple may have been Kylo being pushed by the other Padawans' potentially violent reaction to the Vader reveal, and that he ended up going way too far and slaughtering them all. Now this new information makes me think that Kylo didn't mean for it to go that far at all. That he had a literal explosive reaction that was out of his control.

It just seems like such a perfect way to explain what happened while also leaving Kylo more sympathetic and open to redemption. And it further explains why he would be so bitter at Luke. All of that pressure and work, and he's no more in control of his own self than he was before. I can see why Snoke may have been an attractive option, if he was promising to help Kylo shape that chaos into power instead of repressing it to the point of tragedy. And as others have pointed out, it makes things like Kylo's temper tantrums more understandable and poignant, if they're his way of lashing out so he doesn't lash out with the Force.

I'm afraid of getting attached to a theory, but it's hard!

ZioRen wrote:I was just thinking about this again and man, I'm so excited at the trailer's new hints that Kylo has some seriously out of control power. We may be wrong in the end with our new theories, but right now this feels like the formerly missing link to all of this that we've been waiting for. A few months ago, I and some others were theorizing that the destruction of the Jedi temple may have been Kylo being pushed by the other Padawans' potentially violent reaction to the Vader reveal, and that he ended up going way too far and slaughtering them all. Now this new information makes me think that Kylo didn't mean for it to go that far at all. That he had a literal explosive reaction that was out of his control.

It just seems like such a perfect way to explain what happened while also leaving Kylo more sympathetic and open to redemption. And it further explains why he would be so bitter at Luke. All of that pressure and work, and he's no more in control of his own self than he was before. I can see why Snoke may have been an attractive option, if he was promising to help Kylo shape that chaos into power instead of repressing it to the point of tragedy. And as others have pointed out, it makes things like Kylo's temper tantrums more understandable and poignant, if they're his way of lashing out so he doesn't lash out with the Force.

I'm afraid of getting attached to a theory, but it's hard!

@ZioRen

I am also happy about this outcome from the trailer.

It really gives a satisfying explanation both about Kylo's outburts and Rey's "Mary Sue" side, which are exactly the reproaches I repeatedly heard from people. My own brother told me that they were two things that he didn't like in TFA :
1) The fact that Kylo behaved like an emo child and that his temper tantrums were "funnier than scary"
2) The fact that Rey became unexplained so powerful in such a few laps of time

So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.

ZioRen wrote:So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.

@ZioRen

I recall those terms being used, but it hasn't swayed me from the Raw Power Explosion theory.

For one thing, those terms are likely being used by an outside perspective from people who weren't there when it happened. If Luke was the only survivor (and disappeared shortly after the incident), likely he and Ben are the only two people who know what went down.

And even if he didn't intend to kill, he did, and that doesn't make it any less of a massacre. Some would still say that he's a murderer.

I doubt that there's any way that this DOESN'T have ties to the Vader reveal. Ben lost it because he was being threatened or his mother was being threatened or something along that line.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

ZioRen wrote:So folks Tumblr just rained on my theory parade a little bit, but the points they made are correct. As much as I love the "accidental 'splosion" backstory, it doesn't fit with the way we've heard the Jedi Temple incident talked about. It's been called a "massacre" and a "betrayal" and Kylo Ren a "murderer" for having done it. Those descriptors for sure suggest intent, not accident.

Though I suppose the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I could actually see it tying back to my original theory, which was that a few of the padawans turned on Ben after the Vader reveal, and Ben ended up losing it and going way too far in retaliation, destroying everyone. The "raw power" could easily come to play in that sort of scenario in that Ben had the intention to harm but ended up losing control of his power and going much, much further than he ever intended. That's a way to combine intent with accident in a way that fits in with the new details.

@ZioRen

I recall those terms being used, but it hasn't swayed me from the Raw Power Explosion theory.

For one thing, those terms are likely being used by an outside perspective from people who weren't there when it happened. If Luke was the only survivor (and disappeared shortly after the incident), likely he and Ben are the only two people who know what went down.

And even if he didn't intend to kill, he did, and that doesn't make it any less of a massacre. Some would still say that he's a murderer.

I doubt that there's any way that this DOESN'T have ties to the Vader reveal. Ben lost it because he was being threatened or his mother was being threatened or something along that line.

@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. It's always about the mother with these Skywalker guys. :-)

But in all seriousness. I actually think that if it is about his mother/Vader reveal, that actually makes the "attack" more likely to be accidental. I really feel like that they are going to keep doing a number of things that "look like Anakin", but are actually not Anakin or a total subversion of Anakin. That whole "looks can be deceiving" seems to be hardwired into Kylo, starting with how he is tempted by the light, when Anakin was always tempted by the dark, and how he "looks like Vader", but is actually nothing like cold, emotionless, cruel Vader.

Also, Snoke is very much in charge of the messaging surrounding Kylo Ren. It's illegal to say "Ben Solo". Why? Wouldn't that be a great feat for the FO? To claim the hero's child as one of their own? But somehow to Snoke that "PR coup" so to speak, is less important than destroying the Ben Solo identity under the persona of Kylo Ren. And that Kylo Ren persona is all about being a bad*** and being powerful. Ben Solo might have accidentally blown people up, but Snoke is not going to sell it that way, because that would undercut Kylo Ren's cold operator image. OTOH, spreading the notion that this mysterious Kylo Ren is a "Jedi Killer" will just enhance that "don't get in Kylo Ren's way" image.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
I agree. It's always about the mother with these Skywalker guys. :-)

But in all seriousness. I actually think that if it is about his mother/Vader reveal, that actually makes the "attack" more likely to be accidental. I really feel like that they are going to keep doing a number of things that "look like Anakin", but are actually not Anakin or a total subversion of Anakin. That whole "looks can be deceiving" seems to be hardwired into Kylo, starting with how he is tempted by the light, when Anakin was always tempted by the dark, and how he "looks like Vader", but is actually nothing like cold, emotionless, cruel Vader.

Also, Snoke is very much in charge of the messaging surrounding Kylo Ren. It's illegal to say "Ben Solo". Why? Wouldn't that be a great feat for the FO? To claim the hero's child as one of their own? But somehow to Snoke that "PR coup" so to speak, is less important than destroying the Ben Solo identity under the persona of Kylo Ren. And that Kylo Ren persona is all about being a bad*** and being powerful. Ben Solo might have accidentally blown people up, but Snoke is not going to sell it that way, because that would undercut Kylo Ren's cold operator image. OTOH, spreading the notion that this mysterious Kylo Ren is a "Jedi Killer" will just enhance that "don't get in Kylo Ren's way" image.

@SoloSideCousin

I'm more and more convinced it was an accident. What if even Luke didn't know what really happened? He was there, but was he present on the exact location of the incident?
What if everyone, even Luke and his parents thought it was on purpose, and turned away from him when he needed them most?
That would also explain why he felt so much abandoned... and that would left him very vulnerable for Snokes manipulations.