What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?

AnneNeville wrote:The Finn/Snowchase/Telegraph office change is potentially a really big deal.

I wish I knew what of the above was sloppiness, and what was a coordinated change in the storytelling in partnership with Rian.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?

@AnneNeville

Yes, it's interesting... To me this suggests that they made pretty big last-minute changes. Sounds like the massacre was originally supposed to be contemporaneous with (or prior to) young Kylo joining the KOR, and the concept art suggests that "young Jedi Killer" was supposed to be very young indeed, maybe even a pre-teen. But now we've heard that the whatever-happened-at-the-Jedi-temple was much more recent... so it's possible Kylo joined the KOR (or was kidnapped, who knows) when he was very young, but "became a murderer" much later.

I think we should probably prepare ourselves for some potential plot holes, or at least shaky/unconvincing plotting. Or else they're deliberately misleading us, or even lying, about the timeline.

panki wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:This is curious (pasting the whole sequence for continuity purposes):

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

EXT NIGHT - 205 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

This opens a question of how much time passed between the massacre/disappearance of Young Kylo and Luke's departure for places unknown. Does the change in name suggest that there is a gap, or just that the actor being used in the scene changed, but no time is assumed to have passed?

@AnneNeville

Yes, it's interesting... To me this suggests that they made pretty big last-minute changes. Sounds like the massacre was originally supposed to be contemporaneous with (or prior to) young Kylo joining the KOR, and the concept art suggests that "young Jedi Killer" was supposed to be very young indeed, maybe even a pre-teen. But now we've heard that the whatever-happened-at-the-Jedi-temple was much more recent... so it's possible Kylo joined the KOR (or was kidnapped, who knows) when he was very young, but "became a murderer" much later.

I think we should probably prepare ourselves for some potential plot holes, or at least shaky/unconvincing plotting. Or else they're deliberately misleading us, or even lying, about the timeline.

@Darth Dingbat

I noticed something curious....in the recent Obi-wan and Anakin comic, Anakin gets kidnapped when he is a young padawan.....Obi-wan and he are sent to help with bring peace to a planet having a civil war....one of the groups notices Anakin is good with fixing things and they try to kill Obi-wan and kidnap Anakin.....I don't know what happens next since this happens in the latest issue....but if Kylo identifies with his grandfather, did a similar event happen in Kylo's life as well?

SoloSideCousin wrote:I think when this schedule first came out we talked about the possibility of the KOR kidnapping Kylo Ren and brainwashing him. Someone, I think @Rimfaxe96 or @EchoBase brought up some old pre-TFA spoiler that indicated that just that had happened and then coupled with this break in the schedule with Ben being "gone" and next being with the KOR, the kidnapping was thought to be a possibility.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I think when this schedule first came out we talked about the possibility of the KOR kidnapping Kylo Ren and brainwashing him. Someone, I think @Rimfaxe96 or @EchoBase brought up some old pre-TFA spoiler that indicated that just that had happened and then coupled with this break in the schedule with Ben being "gone" and next being with the KOR, the kidnapping was thought to be a possibility.

@SoloSideCousin

Must ave been EchoBase then. Next to the classic "runs off to join them" I guess that he was in touch with them somehow, in a double-life-kind-of-way. Those Knights don't exactly look like a club which allows every random stranger who asks them to join them.

Btw, about that filming sequence quote above - a palace, really? Man, the KoR are getting more bad*** by the day.

AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.

@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.

@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.

@SoloSideCousin

I have been quite resereved as far as the speculation on Luke s, the "massacre" or whatever it was, and finally Luke s escape.
The info we have so far is minor and can be explain in millions of ways.

But few points are clear:
1. Luke has vanished, upon the events - which is very interesting thing - because with war still going (or just starting?), his sister leading the Resistance and very much in the game - to me it looks very much out of character for Luke to just run away no matter how the circumstances looked though. It is definitely not the same situation in Galaxy as it was when Anakin turned, most of jedis have been destroyed, Empire having all the power and the army of clones on their side - and consequently Yoda and Obi Van were forced to ran away and hide.
So, that would be my first question: why Luke felt a need to vanish and hide to some totally remote place, and telling almost nobody (we know that from Han and opening roll) where he is hiding. - It is more than mistery to me.
2. It seems to me (due to the bits of Bloodline) that all the bad things started with politics (which at first glance has nothing to do with Luke s possible spiritual teaching of the Force).
Somehow I think that maybe Kylo/Ben (heavily influenced by Snoke) but still his mother son - had some ideas in the area of politics and ways of ruling the Galaxy (...Let me finish what you started..).And possibly he confronted Luke with his ideas.

So, these are two things I am thinking about the most - not how the "massacre" happened but what was the cause and trigger for it. And of course: what was so desperate that Luke Skywalker decided to ran away from everything and everybody.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:People have been assuming that the "turning against Luke" happened at some sort of school, making that event similar to Anakin's attack on the younglings. But what if that is not the case? If Ben was 23, there is another option . . . that during a battle between the Jedi and the FO, Ben switched sides (becoming Kylo Ren/Jedi Killer). It would be similar to the move that cost Richard III the Battle of Bosworth: one wing of his army held back, then went to Henry Lancaster, leading to Richard III's destruction.

I think that scenario would fit the evidence we have been given so far, too. It also puts a very different color on the betrayal, because there is a difference between murdering fellow students in an ambush, and changing sides in a battle (especially if from Kylo/Ben's point of view, the Jedi were engaging in an evil act or fighting for the wrong thing). It would make a stronger parallel between Kylo and Finn (who I believe was 23ish in the movie), perhaps explaining Kylo's moment in the village, when (to some) he seems to identify with Finn and walks away anyway.

It adds extra color to the "traitor" line, too.

@AnneNeville

I just answered a similar post from you in another thread. I agree. I think Kylo could literally be one faction with one idealogy and Luke be representing another. It doesn't make it cute, but it does take it out of that terrible Anakin massacre realm and puts it squarely into the two armed, opposing factions realm which is less murder and more war.

And good thoughts about Finn!!!! Kylo would understand that moment of profound disagreement ... and thus lets Finn go ... thereby giving Finn some modicum of respect ... but when Finn causes everything to blow up in Kylo's face, it's all over.

@SoloSideCousin

I have been quite resereved as far as the speculation on Luke s, the "massacre" or whatever it was, and finally Luke s escape.
The info we have so far is minor and can be explain in millions of ways.

But few points are clear:
1. Luke has vanished, upon the events - which is very interesting thing - because with war still going (or just starting?), his sister leading the Resistance and very much in the game - to me it looks very much out of character for Luke to just run away no matter how the circumstances looked though. It is definitely not the same situation in Galaxy as it was when Anakin turned, most of jedis have been destroyed, Empire having all the power and the army of clones on their side - and consequently Yoda and Obi Van were forced to ran away and hide.
So, that would be my first question: why Luke felt a need to vanish and hide to some totally remote place, and telling almost nobody (we know that from Han and opening roll) where he is hiding. - It is more than mistery to me.
2. It seems to me (due to the bits of Bloodline) that all the bad things started with politics (which at first glance has nothing to do with Luke s possible spiritual teaching of the Force).
Somehow I think that maybe Kylo/Ben (heavily influenced by Snoke) but still his mother son - had some ideas in the area of politics and ways of ruling the Galaxy (...Let me finish what you started..).And possibly he confronted Luke with his ideas.

So, these are two things I am thinking about the most - not how the "massacre" happened but what was the cause and trigger for it. And of course: what was so desperate that Luke Skywalker decided to ran away from everything and everybody.

@Darth_Awakened

And this is a very good thought IMO, especially once we've taken the "massacre" as it were out of that "Anakin just kills everybody" because I don't know how they would ever bring Kylo back from something like that or how Leia and Han could still hope for him and actually invite him back home after something like that. However, if they ended up on differing sides of warring factions, even if they disagreed with his side in the war, they could bring him back into the fold. People have had to do that throughout history. In America we talk about the American Civil War with literally "brother against brother" type of fighting. This kind of thing has happened all over the world throughout history, but it's amazing what people can accept when there's family involved.

One of my favorite movies is The Lion in Winter. It stars Peter O'Toole, Katharine Hepburn and Anthony Hopkins among others. It's about King Henry II of England and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine and their sons. Historically this couple actually raised war against each other, Henry with one son on his side, Eleanor with Richard the Lionheart on her side. Henry imprisoned Eleanor. And yet these people historically maintained some kind of contact with each other, even though their actions put the others life in danger. It's mind-boggling ... but it isn't ... because family is family ... and crazy medieval Space families have idealogy wars against each other . Of course Kylo breaks that rule, but that's another issue ... and frankly I think that will be his biggest sin that he needs to atone for ... But the good thing is that I do think Bloodlines will actually go a decent way to giving us a picture of the political landscape that is clear enough that we might be able to glean where Kylo is coming from politically.

Spoiler:

EchoBase wrote:I checked the code names again. According to http://millenniumfalcon.com/, Luke was indeed called Original Warrior and the KOR Band of Dark Warriors.

Spoiler: