What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

BastilaBey wrote:@thejediskywalker You're breaking my heart, here.

I'm torn between him being framed, or having had to kill in self defense because the other students attacked him once they found out he was Vader's heir. Either way, very traumatic for Ben and you're right - he could have hoped his family would come for him and they never did. Snoke would have taken advantage of those thoughts and fed into his alienation and loneliness until he felt like he had nothing left but to fulfill Vader's plans.

@BastilaBey

Either scenario would be completely heartbreaking, and I suspect that either one could get most of the GA on-board with a Ben-redemption arc AND primed for Reylo.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@thejediskywalker You're breaking my heart, here.

I'm torn between him being framed, or having had to kill in self defense because the other students attacked him once they found out he was Vader's heir. Either way, very traumatic for Ben and you're right - he could have hoped his family would come for him and they never did. Snoke would have taken advantage of those thoughts and fed into his alienation and loneliness until he felt like he had nothing left but to fulfill Vader's plans.

@BastilaBey

Either scenario would be completely heartbreaking, and I suspect that either one could get most of the GA on-board with a Ben-redemption arc AND primed for Reylo.

@ISeeAnIsland
Even going off the biased other place poll most people are on-board or pro-Rendemption. The vote was nearing 70% the last time I looked at it, and I would say that doesn't represent the GA at all (as we should know very well). Someone should coin that term by the way. We can have Renperor vs. Rendemption.

With the latest spoilers from Bloodline - my feeling that "it has not played out like most of fans assumed it has - Ben killing jedi aprrentices (or whomever), just got stronger.

So, far we had only Han s lines from TFA,his statement of too much Vader in Ben, and that even Luke could not reach Ben (one of the most interesting lines in TFA)
I think that the truth of the jedi temple tragedy when revealed - would be the "I am your father" moment of the sequel trilogy.
I am not saying that Luke Skylwalker would end as real baddie in that specific event, but I do think that this would change the perspective of understanding Kylo s character.

I am not so sure anymore about the other students attacking him. Aren't they supposed to learn the Jedi ways? Compassion? Kylo being 23-24 years old, it would have been young adults attacking him - I don't see children attacking him. Young adults that then would have been taught by Luke since many years. And they snap because their fellow student has a bad grandfather? Would you attack someone if you learned that their grandfather was Hitler? I wouldn't and I am no Jedi. To me this scenario would only work if there was already bad blood between Kylo and the others. But then wouldn't have Luke felt it and done something about it?

I think there is still a big piece of the puzzle missing. I just hope that piece is not a girl. It does not fit with my view of Kylo, but would not be the first time, I am wrong. It would become a bit too much for me : lost his first love while learning his grandfather was super villain, becomes evil himself and then is saved by love again *violins playing in the background* And there you would have me running out of the theater screaming "noooo!"

SanghaRen wrote:I am not so sure anymore about the other students attacking him. Aren't they supposed to learn the Jedi ways? Compassion? Kylo being 23-24 years old, it would have been young adults attacking him - I don't see children attacking him. Young adults that then would have been taught by Luke since many years. And they snap because their fellow student has a bad grandfather? Would you attack someone if you learned that their grandfather was Hitler? I wouldn't and I am no Jedi. To me this scenario would only work if there was already bad blood between Kylo and the others. But then wouldn't have Luke felt it and done something about it?

I think there is still a big piece of the puzzle missing. I just hope that piece is not a girl. It does not fit with my view of Kylo, but would not be the first time, I am wrong. It would become a bit too much for me : lost his first love while learning his grandfather was super villain, becomes evil himself and then is saved by love again *violins playing in the background* And there you would have me running out of the theater screaming "noooo!"

@SanghaRen
I never bought the self-defence theory. It just doesn't make sense or fit with where they seem to be taking the character.

As for a girl, no way. I'm 100% sure this is going to be a mixture of political and familial (mainly based around the impacts one had upon the other). There's a reason Kylo hated the New Republic so much, and if you ask me it has something to do with his mother, specifically the way she may have been treated as a result of their heritage. And then there's Snoke of course, who I'm sure fed into Kylo's delusions, manipulating him through praise and acknowledgement.

Another thing is what kind of Jedi Order was Luke trying to establish? Was he really attempting to rebuild the old one? It would seem that is the current insinuation. I think we all remember what kind of place it was, quite literally clouded as a result of Jedi favouring politics over the Force.

If the other students were going to gang up on Ben, they would have attacked Luke as well,for being Vaders son. Why just attack Ben? hes the nephew of their master.

@Mana

The idea was that Luke was not there when it happened.

@FrolickingFizzgig

The ganging up against Ben was to me viable if everyone had already known about Vader and they were still teenagers bullying him. But with this information, it makes less sense. At least to me. But I am ready to be convinced.

So Luke would have repeated the mistakes of the past.

Stupid question : was it ever confirmed where the school was?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I am not so sure anymore about the other students attacking him. Aren't they supposed to learn the Jedi ways? Compassion? Kylo being 23-24 years old, it would have been young adults attacking him - I don't see children attacking him. Young adults that then would have been taught by Luke since many years. And they snap because their fellow student has a bad grandfather? Would you attack someone if you learned that their grandfather was Hitler? I wouldn't and I am no Jedi. To me this scenario would only work if there was already bad blood between Kylo and the others. But then wouldn't have Luke felt it and done something about it?

I think there is still a big piece of the puzzle missing. I just hope that piece is not a girl. It does not fit with my view of Kylo, but would not be the first time, I am wrong. It would become a bit too much for me : lost his first love while learning his grandfather was super villain, becomes evil himself and then is saved by love again *violins playing in the background* And there you would have me running out of the theater screaming "noooo!"

@SanghaRen
I never bought the self-defence theory. It just doesn't make sense or fit with where they seem to be taking the character.

As for a girl, no way. I'm 100% sure this is going to be a mixture of political and familial (mainly based around the impacts one had upon the other). There's a reason Kylo hated the New Republic so much, and if you ask me it has something to do with his mother, specifically the way she may have been treated as a result of their heritage. And then there's Snoke of course, who I'm sure fed into Kylo's delusions, manipulating him through praise and acknowledgement.

Another thing is what kind of Jedi Order was Luke trying to establish? Was he really attempting to rebuild the old one? It would seem that is the current insinuation. I think we all remember what kind of place it was, quite literally clouded as a result of Jedi favouring politics over the Force.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Why does self-defense make no sense? What if there was a ring leader? Snoke had other apprentices. People act ridiculous in mob situations too, even Jedi students. It wouldn't even need to be a gang-up situation. It could be something between Ben and the rest where things get heated and then get out of control, and Ben, being very strong, and dark-influenced, goes too far.

I'm not saying it absolutely has to be self-defense. I'm not married to it, but I am interested in why do you think it's so impossible? I think the "Han and Leia write the kid off because of low Vader expectations" could be heartbreakingly compelling ... You know the whole, "I've been waiting for you for a long time Han Solo" thing. Wouldn't it be tragic if Han and Leia spent most of their life saving people, but didn't save their son because his dark-tendencies made them feel he fell because of innate desire or flaw, when actually he might have been tortured or seduced into darkness during the worst moment of his life? I just have a hunch that there really be some serious abandonment thing that happens here. I could be wrong. It's just a feeling.

Also, how would the Leia angle work? Why would going to the dark side "honor" what had been done to his mother? How do you see that scenario playing out?

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I am not so sure anymore about the other students attacking him. Aren't they supposed to learn the Jedi ways? Compassion? Kylo being 23-24 years old, it would have been young adults attacking him - I don't see children attacking him. Young adults that then would have been taught by Luke since many years. And they snap because their fellow student has a bad grandfather? Would you attack someone if you learned that their grandfather was Hitler? I wouldn't and I am no Jedi. To me this scenario would only work if there was already bad blood between Kylo and the others. But then wouldn't have Luke felt it and done something about it?

I think there is still a big piece of the puzzle missing. I just hope that piece is not a girl. It does not fit with my view of Kylo, but would not be the first time, I am wrong. It would become a bit too much for me : lost his first love while learning his grandfather was super villain, becomes evil himself and then is saved by love again *violins playing in the background* And there you would have me running out of the theater screaming "noooo!"

@SanghaRen
I never bought the self-defence theory. It just doesn't make sense or fit with where they seem to be taking the character.

As for a girl, no way. I'm 100% sure this is going to be a mixture of political and familial (mainly based around the impacts one had upon the other). There's a reason Kylo hated the New Republic so much, and if you ask me it has something to do with his mother, specifically the way she may have been treated as a result of their heritage. And then there's Snoke of course, who I'm sure fed into Kylo's delusions, manipulating him through praise and acknowledgement.

Another thing is what kind of Jedi Order was Luke trying to establish? Was he really attempting to rebuild the old one? It would seem that is the current insinuation. I think we all remember what kind of place it was, quite literally clouded as a result of Jedi favouring politics over the Force.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Why does self-defense make no sense? What if there was a ring leader? Snoke had other apprentices.  People act ridiculous in mob situations too, even Jedi students.  It wouldn't even need to be a gang-up situation.  It could be something between Ben and the rest where things get heated and then get out of control, and Ben, being very strong, and dark-influenced, goes too far.

I'm not saying it absolutely has to be self-defense.  I'm not married to it, but I am interested in why do you think it's so impossible?  I think the "Han and Leia write the kid off because of low Vader expectations" could be heartbreakingly compelling ... You know the whole, "I've been waiting for you for a long time Han Solo" thing.  Wouldn't it be tragic if Han and Leia spent most of their life saving people, but didn't save their son because his dark-tendencies made them feel he fell because of innate desire or flaw, when actually he might have been tortured or seduced into darkness during the worst moment of his life? I just have a hunch that there really be some serious abandonment thing that happens here.  I could be wrong.  It's just a feeling.

Also, how would the Leia angle work? Why would going to the dark side "honor" what had been done to his mother? How do you see that scenario playing out?

@SoloSideCousin
I think there's a fine line between making a character sympathetic and making him pitiful. It's far from impossible, but I feel it might be too much, almost like an excuse. Kylo is definitely a victim, but it might start to get convoluted if we have a scenario involving multiple victimizations. Snoke has to be the big one. Plus it paints the Jedi students in a terrible light, taking all blame off Kylo himself, the boy who "destroyed everything". It just doesn't fit with what they've given us so far, but that could easily change with the right plot-twists and characterization. I know I say this a lot, but right now we're meant to believe that the Jedi Killer murdered them. I'm sticking with that for now (while simultaneously acknowledging that we're very likely getting a twist).

I agree about the abandonment, but I don't think they wrote him off. I really don't. The writers seem to be heading in a more "blissfully unaware" direction, but Kylo obviously had a different perspective on the whole situation. What they saw as helping him, he saw as something else altogether.  But we'll see.

I don't really have a scenario in mind (I don't really do that), but I think Kylo's hatred of the Republic might have to do with the scandal that arose from the Republic learning that Leia is descended from Vader. Kylo seems to have a great sense of disappointment in his father, but not as much in his mother. And a lot of us also believe he may have sent the warning to the Resistance. There's something to consider here.

When the jedi order traditionally taught padawans, it was normally a one to one relationship involving one master and one padawan. That master had the opportunity to discuss and resolve all the emotions and confusions of the padawan over a long period of time, often spanning at least a decade..and the effort was focused because of the ratio. Even despite this, many jedi lost their serenity and turned to the dark side....definitely some among the Lost twenty who left the order, some among the Coruscant temple guards, some like Bariss Offee and who were disillusioned and indulged in terrorism and others like Asajj Ventress who felt the jedi order let both them and their master down.

In Luke's time, he was the only jedi knight as far as we know...and we don't even know if and when he became a jedi master. Jedi master is something a knight achieves only after they successfully train a padawan to become a knight. If Luke was re-building the order and taking on many students, he would not have been able to give individual attention to each and every student unlike his predecessors. This would have affected the level of training the students had and I wont be surprised if they were prey to emotions. I'm not doubting Luke's abilities as a jedi or his knowledge...but he had taken on a task that even great jedi before him would not undertake.

Also, a lot of their family members or even members of their species would have been killed by Vader....that itself would have been enough to set a few of them off.....and if Luke was away at the time, Ben would have been an easier target and the chances of the students turning into mob goes even higher.

It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

panki wrote:When the jedi order traditionally taught padawans, it was normally a one to one relationship involving one master and one padawan. That master had the opportunity to discuss and resolve all the emotions and confusions of the padawan over a long period of time, often spanning at least a decade..and the effort was focused because of the ratio. Even despite this, many jedi lost their serenity and turned to the dark side....definitely some among the Lost twenty who left the order, some among the Coruscant temple guards, some like Bariss Offee and  who were disillusioned and indulged in terrorism and others like Asajj Ventress who felt the jedi order let both them and their master down.

In Luke's time, he was the only jedi knight as far as we know...and we don't even know if and when he became a jedi master. Jedi master is something a knight achieves only after they successfully train a padawan to become a knight. If Luke was re-building the order and taking on many students, he would not have been able to give individual attention to each and every student unlike his predecessors. This would have affected the level of training the students had and I wont be surprised if they were prey to emotions. I'm not doubting Luke's abilities as a jedi or his knowledge...but he had taken on a task that even great jedi before him would not undertake.

Also, a lot of their family members or even members of their species would have been killed by Vader....that itself would have been enough to set a few of them off.....and if Luke was away at the time, Ben would have been an easier target and the chances of the students turning into  mob goes even higher.

@panki

I agree, and at this point the Vader reveal appears to be the best lead we have for a creation of a catalyst to make Ben turn.  This could go down in a variety of ways.  

(1) I've read that Leia hasn't heard from Luke or Ben in a while (needs to be confirmed by book), but it's possible that something could be going on with them (perhaps even involving LST) that might have meant infighting on theology, but once the Vader news comes out, Ben will think Luke is a total liar and this would lead to Ben's theological disagreement coming to a boil leading to a force theology battle with Ben and his KoR winning (in this scenario KoR would most likely be other Luke students who turned away from Luke's theology).  Also, in this scenario it is no longer a massacre, but a real fight and Ben just happens to win.  Ben may not be pure dark side in his theological beliefs, but Snoke will influence him after this trauma and Ben will think that he's better off with Snoke.  In his mind it may be, "At least Snoke never lied ... like everyone else did."

(2) The other padawans turn on him in response to Vader when Luke is not there.  (The shooting schedule indicated that when Luke returned all was destroyed and Ben was gone).  Those padawans could just have a grudge, or there could be someone planted on the inside to stir them up or both.  Ben defends himself but goes too far, leaving everyone dead ... and Snoke is the only one with an open hand.

(3) The other padawans turn on him, but don't kill him.  Instead they beat the he** out of him and banish him.  Snoke comes a running, and Ben is taken in during a very vulnerable state.  Snoke bombards Ben with negative information and force power, and Ben comes out the other side very angry and wishing bad things happen ... and then in @AnneNeville's Henry II scenario, Snoke makes that happen ... thereby making Ben persona non grata and totally in despair and ripe for the dark side because he is hopeless.

(4) KoR just flat out kidnap Ben as the ultimate Vader relic once the news comes out, kill everybody, and Ben is tortured into falling to the darkness.  Ben is made especially vulnerable because the KoR/Snoke point out that his parents are not trying to come and retrieve him.  They believe he is just like Vader all along ... so in his tortured state, he begins to identify with Vader because that's all he's got.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

@Mrs Ben Solo
This I definitely think is possible. I just don't see us getting a "self-defence from being attacked/ganged-up on/targeted" scenario. That's just me though. I don't actually dislike the idea, and it could be done well.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

@Mrs Ben Solo

with all this conflict that was bound to happen, I think its delusional to expect that Han, Leia and Luke would have had a fairytale ending after ROTJ ...

Mana wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

@Mrs Ben Solo

with all this conflict that was bound to happen, I think its delusional to expect that Han, Leia and Luke would have had a fairytale ending after ROTJ ...

@Mana
It's not so much that it's delusional, just that the Sequel Trilogy couldn't exist. Happy ending or Sequel Trilogy. You can't have both.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

@Mrs Ben Solo

with all this conflict that was bound to happen, I think its delusional to expect that Han, Leia and Luke would have had a fairytale ending after ROTJ  ...

@Mana
It's not so much that it's delusional, just that the Sequel Trilogy couldn't exist. Happy ending or Sequel Trilogy. You can't have both.

@FrolickingFizzgig

yes, without the conflict, there is no sequel trilogy. I read some posts where people wished the sequel trilogy had taken place 100 years after ROTJ (this was after the Reywalker debunking), but in all honesty, who would be invested in a story like that?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:It does seem that there was a strong backlash against Leia when the news about her family connection to Darth Vader broke. That must have extended to Luke, and Ben as well. The extract I read from Bloodline suggested that some suspicion was being directed at Luke Skywalker. There were concerns expressed about what could be done to defeat someone so strong with the force if he were to ever turn to the dark side. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume someone, if not Luke's apprentices, might have decided to take matters into their own hands and eliminate Luke, Ben and the other Jedi apprentices. Perhaps the Knights of Ren were engaged for this task. Snoke could easily have garnered some support for such an action in the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the fallout from the Vader revelation. It seems that Luke was away, maybe off hunting for relics with Lor Tan Sekka, when whatever happened with his apprentices went down. Maybe Snoke sent the Knights of Ren in and made Ben choose between dying for the loyalty of those who had lied to him or rejecting his family and the Jedi and living to fulfil his destiny of finishing what Darth Vader started. Whatever did happen, I'm sure there was more to it than Ben turning on the other apprentices or them turning on him.

@Mrs Ben Solo

with all this conflict that was bound to happen, I think its delusional to expect that Han, Leia and Luke would have had a fairytale ending after ROTJ  ...

@Mana
It's not so much that it's delusional, just that the Sequel Trilogy couldn't exist. Happy ending or Sequel Trilogy. You can't have both.

@FrolickingFizzgig

THIS!! In a nutshell!

@Mana: Exactly! People want to watch who they know.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:When the jedi order traditionally taught padawans, it was normally a one to one relationship involving one master and one padawan. That master had the opportunity to discuss and resolve all the emotions and confusions of the padawan over a long period of time, often spanning at least a decade..and the effort was focused because of the ratio. Even despite this, many jedi lost their serenity and turned to the dark side....definitely some among the Lost twenty who left the order, some among the Coruscant temple guards, some like Bariss Offee and  who were disillusioned and indulged in terrorism and others like Asajj Ventress who felt the jedi order let both them and their master down.

In Luke's time, he was the only jedi knight as far as we know...and we don't even know if and when he became a jedi master. Jedi master is something a knight achieves only after they successfully train a padawan to become a knight. If Luke was re-building the order and taking on many students, he would not have been able to give individual attention to each and every student unlike his predecessors. This would have affected the level of training the students had and I wont be surprised if they were prey to emotions. I'm not doubting Luke's abilities as a jedi or his knowledge...but he had taken on a task that even great jedi before him would not undertake.

Also, a lot of their family members or even members of their species would have been killed by Vader....that itself would have been enough to set a few of them off.....and if Luke was away at the time, Ben would have been an easier target and the chances of the students turning into  mob goes even higher.

@panki

I agree, and at this point the Vader reveal appears to be the best lead we have for a creation of a catalyst to make Ben turn.  This could go down in a variety of ways.  

(1) I've read that Leia hasn't heard from Luke or Ben in a while (needs to be confirmed by book), but it's possible that something could be going on with them (perhaps even involving LST) that might have meant infighting on theology, but once the Vader news comes out, Ben will think Luke is a total liar and this would lead to Ben's theological disagreement coming to a boil leading to a force theology battle with Ben and his KoR winning (in this scenario KoR would most likely be other Luke students who turned away from Luke's theology).  Also, in this scenario it is no longer a massacre, but a real fight and Ben just happens to win.  Ben may not be pure dark side in his theological beliefs, but Snoke will influence him after this trauma and Ben will think that he's better off with Snoke.  In his mind it may be, "At least Snoke never lied ... like everyone else did."

(2) The other padawans turn on him in response to Vader when Luke is not there.  (The shooting schedule indicated that when Luke returned all was destroyed and Ben was gone).  Those padawans could just have a grudge, or there could be someone planted on the inside to stir them up or both.  Ben defends himself but goes too far, leaving everyone dead ... and Snoke is the only one with an open hand.

(3) The other padawans turn on him, but don't kill him.  Instead they beat the he** out of him and banish him.  Snoke comes a running, and Ben is taken in during a very vulnerable state.  Snoke bombards Ben with negative information and force power, and Ben comes out the other side very angry and wishing bad things happen ... and then in @AnneNeville's Henry II scenario, Snoke makes that happen ... thereby making Ben persona non grata and totally in despair and ripe for the dark side because he is hopeless.

(4) KoR just flat out kidnap Ben as the ultimate Vader relic once the news comes out, kill everybody, and Ben is tortured into falling to the darkness.  Ben is made especially vulnerable because the KoR/Snoke point out that his parents are not trying to come and retrieve him.  They believe he is just like Vader all along ... so in his tortured state, he begins to identify with Vader because that's all he's got.

@SoloSideCousin

I really like your ideas on this!!!

It got me thinking of one possibility that is a combination of a few of the above....what if Luke introduced clans like he did in the EU....clans were used by the old jedi order and was a way for young jedi to feel like they had a family and to learn from one another...the clan also focused on certain abilities so if a young jedi had a certain ability or inclination, they would be put in a particular clan.

So in this situation, what if our history buff (who likes browsing archives) Ben Solo revived the Knights of Ren, which was an ancient clan that he read about (maybe Snoke suggested this group name to Kylo in the first place?)... it would reconcile the conflict that the KOR was an ancient group as well as that it was created by Ben Solo. There could be existing rivalries between the various clans, vying to be the best one.

Then the news of  Vader's identity spreads and it is at a time that Luke is away. The other clans could have tried to destroy the place and kill Ben (due to fears that Luke and his nephew have dark-side heritage and must be stopped). Ben and his own clan would have fought back, partly in self defense and partly in anger. The whole situation gets out of hand, the other students barring the KOR are killed.

Ben is angry with his family for lying to him, he feels abandoned by them because he had to face the angry students.... also, he and his clan have no place to go after having committed murder.... Snoke must have been like Palpatine (or had some agent who fulfilled this role)....occasionally visiting the Skywalkers and giving attention to Ben, making him feel special and wanted.....so Ben would have gone to Snoke for help at that time and Snoke would have welcomed him with open arms.

Just to mention that we stili do not know anything about Snoke - which I find pretty interesting.
I expected that Bloodline would provide some more bits of info on that matter (due to some earlier hints that Leia and Snoke knew each other).

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:When the jedi order traditionally taught padawans, it was normally a one to one relationship involving one master and one padawan. That master had the opportunity to discuss and resolve all the emotions and confusions of the padawan over a long period of time, often spanning at least a decade..and the effort was focused because of the ratio. Even despite this, many jedi lost their serenity and turned to the dark side....definitely some among the Lost twenty who left the order, some among the Coruscant temple guards, some like Bariss Offee and  who were disillusioned and indulged in terrorism and others like Asajj Ventress who felt the jedi order let both them and their master down.

In Luke's time, he was the only jedi knight as far as we know...and we don't even know if and when he became a jedi master. Jedi master is something a knight achieves only after they successfully train a padawan to become a knight. If Luke was re-building the order and taking on many students, he would not have been able to give individual attention to each and every student unlike his predecessors. This would have affected the level of training the students had and I wont be surprised if they were prey to emotions. I'm not doubting Luke's abilities as a jedi or his knowledge...but he had taken on a task that even great jedi before him would not undertake.

Also, a lot of their family members or even members of their species would have been killed by Vader....that itself would have been enough to set a few of them off.....and if Luke was away at the time, Ben would have been an easier target and the chances of the students turning into  mob goes even higher.

@panki

I agree, and at this point the Vader reveal appears to be the best lead we have for a creation of a catalyst to make Ben turn.  This could go down in a variety of ways.  

(1) I've read that Leia hasn't heard from Luke or Ben in a while (needs to be confirmed by book), but it's possible that something could be going on with them (perhaps even involving LST) that might have meant infighting on theology, but once the Vader news comes out, Ben will think Luke is a total liar and this would lead to Ben's theological disagreement coming to a boil leading to a force theology battle with Ben and his KoR winning (in this scenario KoR would most likely be other Luke students who turned away from Luke's theology).  Also, in this scenario it is no longer a massacre, but a real fight and Ben just happens to win.  Ben may not be pure dark side in his theological beliefs, but Snoke will influence him after this trauma and Ben will think that he's better off with Snoke.  In his mind it may be, "At least Snoke never lied ... like everyone else did."

(2) The other padawans turn on him in response to Vader when Luke is not there.  (The shooting schedule indicated that when Luke returned all was destroyed and Ben was gone).  Those padawans could just have a grudge, or there could be someone planted on the inside to stir them up or both.  Ben defends himself but goes too far, leaving everyone dead ... and Snoke is the only one with an open hand.

(3) The other padawans turn on him, but don't kill him.  Instead they beat the he** out of him and banish him.  Snoke comes a running, and Ben is taken in during a very vulnerable state.  Snoke bombards Ben with negative information and force power, and Ben comes out the other side very angry and wishing bad things happen ... and then in @AnneNeville's Henry II scenario, Snoke makes that happen ... thereby making Ben persona non grata and totally in despair and ripe for the dark side because he is hopeless.

(4) KoR just flat out kidnap Ben as the ultimate Vader relic once the news comes out, kill everybody, and Ben is tortured into falling to the darkness.  Ben is made especially vulnerable because the KoR/Snoke point out that his parents are not trying to come and retrieve him.  They believe he is just like Vader all along ... so in his tortured state, he begins to identify with Vader because that's all he's got.

@SoloSideCousin

I really like your ideas on this!!!

It got me thinking of one possibility that is a combination of a few of the above....what if Luke introduced clans like he did in the EU....clans were used by the old jedi order and was a way for young jedi to feel like they had a family and to learn from one another...the clan also focused on certain abilities so if a young jedi had a certain ability or inclination, they would be put in a particular clan.

So in this situation, what if our history buff (who likes browsing archives) Ben Solo revived the Knights of Ren, which was an ancient clan that he read about (maybe Snoke suggested this group name to Kylo in the first place?)... it would reconcile the conflict that the KOR was an ancient group as well as that it was created by Ben Solo. There could be existing rivalries between the various clans, vying to be the best one.

Then the news of  Vader's identity spreads and it is at a time that Luke is away. The other clans could have tried to destroy the place and kill Ben (due to fears that Luke and his nephew have dark-side heritage and must be stopped). Ben and his own clan would have fought back, partly in self defense and partly in anger. The whole situation gets out of hand, the other students barring the KOR are killed.

Ben is angry with his family for lying to him, he feels abandoned by them because he had to face the angry students.... also, he and his clan have no place to go after having committed murder.... Snoke must have been like Palpatine (or had some agent who fulfilled this role)....occasionally visiting the Skywalkers and giving attention to Ben, making him feel special and wanted.....so Ben would have gone to Snoke for help at that time and Snoke would have welcomed him with open arms.

@panki

Thank you!

I like your idea as well! It made me think of Slytherin and Gryffindor, but not in a bad way. It would actually make a great deal of sense if these padwans were sent away for years at a time for them to start to group together over similar traits and/or beliefs. People do this kind of thing all the time at school whether it's a club, a sorority/fraternity, a dorm, a political group or even Skull & Bones (an exclusive secret society at Yale to which many powerful people, including US Presidents have belonged). Also, let's face it. Luke isn't prequel-era Yoda here with the whole massive Jedi library at his disposal. Luke is pretty in the dark about Jedi theology. He wouldn't have to search for artifacts if he wasn't.

As a result, I could see differences of philosophy start to emerge among his padawans. I mean look at us here on this board. We're a small group and are all looking for a basic set of goals storywise, but even among us, over something as minor as a movie franchise, we look at certain things in profoundly different ways ... so it would make perfect sense for really serious differences to emerge when dealing with an unsettled, recently uncanonized religion. Also, returning to the Slytherin/Gryffindor analogy, these differences could have bred low-grade animosity and intra-group loyalty over time. This process would probably be intensified by (1) Luke not being able to give the individual padawans the attention they needed because he is the only one and he is really teaching them some very powerful and potentially dangerous things, (2) Luke is still learning on the job so he doesn't have the confidence to lay down the law all the time, and (3) Luke is probably absent more than is ideal because he has to search for more answers. This grouping process would also allow Kylo/Ben to have a ready-made team (KoR). Further, Luke's absence and his being overwhelmed by the task of being the last Jedi would make Luke and all his padawans, not just Ben, vulnerable to the machinations of someone like Snoke, especially if he came around initially as a helper. As a result, it would be very easy to see how Snoke could whisper KoR philosophy in Ben's ear and then in turn see Ben create a branch with Luke.

Finally, when the Vader news comes out, there would already be bad blood from the other groups and an intense loyalty from the brothers/sisters of the Ben group. With Luke not there and tempers running high (because many of these padawans would have had some connection to Empire/Vader induced suffering), coupled with a bunch of people being trained in very powerful magical martial arts by an overworked, frequently absent, not fully educated teacher ... well you potentially have a tinder box and the Vader news could just be enough to be the spark to blow everything apart like a bomb. And let's say because of Snoke and his influence on Ben, coupled with Ben's inherent power and Ben's force composition (and probably an unhealthy suppression of his darkness on Luke's advice), Ben finally gets upset enough, (particularly since Luke, who told him to suppress part of himself, has been proven to be a liar), to just let that darkness go ... and he ends up being ridiculously powerful as a result and everyone gets killed but his posse, even though everyone was armed and put up a good fight ... Ben was just that powerful.

I could see him being horrified afterwards, kind of like Rey seemed to be a little bit after she calmed down after slashing Kylo's face ... except his would be so much worse ... and like you said, he and his KoR might just not have anywhere else to go.

I also had another thought. I was on a road trip and during part of it I played The Theatre of War by Brian Doerries, the book that Adam Driver narrates. One of the Greek tragedies he tells of is of a Sophocles play about Ajax, a Greek officer who goes crazy after being betrayed by his fellow warriors to such an extent that he kills a bunch of cattle in a blind rage thinking he has killed his enemies. Afterwards he is so disgusted with himself he literally falls on his sword and kills himself. Now I don't know how much influence these stories would have on the Kylo characterization, but I have to think that Adam was able to bring some of this warrior ethos to Kylo, as he really seems to see Kylo's status as a warrior as one of the character's primary traits.

So what if Kylo/Ben is like Ajax in some way? He is betrayed by his family, his mentor/uncle, the Republic he is supposed to revere, maybe by his fellow padawans ... and he loses it and becomes what he never wanted to be in a blind dark side rage. Is it possible that instead of falling on his sword or ruining his eyes (Oedipus) that Kylo/Ben in his despair becomes vulnerable to Snoke's seduction and the dark side in general because when the seduction and manipulation begins in serious earnest that he believes he is really not fit for anything else, that all he deserves is the "living death" of the dark side, because he is nothing more than a creature or monster of the dark side? Maybe all the KoR feel that way to some extent ... thus making them into some fatalistic dark Seven Samurai? But maybe ... though they are dark ... they are not dark like Vader or the Emperor or Snoke ... because for them the dark is like some misguided purgatory they've resigned themselves to ... not something they enjoy, more like a prison sentence forever?

This is obviously all just speculation, particularly the last bit, but your suggestion really does open up a lot of interesting possibilities and I really like how it married a number of the suggestions I had. Further, it would explain the "clan leader v. KoR" thing with Mark Stanley quite nicely. :-)

Darth_Awakened wrote:Just to mention that we stili do not know anything about Snoke - which I find pretty interesting.
I expected that Bloodline would provide some more bits of info on that matter (due to some earlier hints that Leia and Snoke knew each other).

That is very true. And Pablo refuses to say anything about Snoke. He did not even confirm if he was human or alien. Not a single crumble except that he is not Plagueis.

Maybe Snoke was poisoning the minds of other students too and forced them to fight against each other. The Vader thing would have been the drop of water that made the vase overflow as we say in French - I don't like the one with the straw and the camel, poor camel. Luke would have felt bad that he did not realize what was going on. Maybe he was often away to look for more FS people or answers on the Force.

That would make Snoke really powerful. But I also like the idea that Luke and Snoke already fought against each other and it's Luke who scarred Snoke. Someone mentioned force lightning.

I had this crazy thought about Luke's new order (inspired by the do or die situation in trials on Tattooine)....first let me state what we know....
- Luke was training students at some place, possibly a temple
- Concept art shows Luke kept Vader's skull helmet (unconfirmed)
- Luke was still a jedi knight....he could only be a master only once at least one of his padawans becomes a knight
- Luke was away for long periods of time, leaving his students alone
- Something went wrong, a boy apprentice destroyed it all, students died
- the temple burnt down

So we have a bunch of young people, living alone in an isolated place and figuring out things for themselves.....then we have something happening which lead to murder and a fire....and throw in a dead man's head.....and what do you get- Lord of the Flies!  

I wonder if clans did exist and there were rivalries...some clans might have even been experimenting with dark side practices since they were unsupervised....and Ben Solo is possibly Ralph (founding the KOR) or a combination of Ralph and Simon in this situation, and he gets the vision from the lord of the flies i.e. Vader's skull, warning him that some of the other students are going to kill him because of his heritage....but in this case he doesn't die. The fire could have been set to block Ben and his friend's escape routes......I am now wondering whether all the students were killed or just a few of them....did some of the students from rival clans  emerge from the fire and blame Ben for everything? And being Vader's grandson, did people believe them?

I also wonder if Piggy's glasses could be the sparking crossguard lightsaber (the source of power)....Ben might have been the only student who managed to craft one, albeit imperfect.....crafting a lightsaber is the final step towards becoming a knight....this explains why Luke is still a knight and not a jedi master (none of his students had completed their training)....this gives me hope that Ben will become a jedi knight by episode 9 and Luke will live and become a jedi master (he deserves it)....I am not including Rey because DR said she is not sure if Rey can be called a jedi....so I need to see whether she becomes a jedi or some other force practitioner.

I don't think think they would have Ben beaten up by the Jedis, his character has been criticized for being weak enough as it is .
I think he was just too powerful with the darkside and killed the students in self defense. @panki had posted a simliar situation in the Anakin comics I think, where a couple Padawans were making fun of Anakin's slave background and he, having that big chip on his shoulder, threatened them with his superior force powers.

Also @panki , I thought it was the conch that was the symbol of power . It's been a while since I read Lord of the Flies. I don't think the situation would've been that grave, since Luke would look incompetent, but there were maybe a few Padawan troublemakers OR had a right to hate Ben after finding out about his background since their family was hunted and killed by Vader. Things just spiraled out of control.

Search Your Feelings wrote:I don't think think they would have Ben beaten up by the Jedis, his character has been criticized for being weak enough as it is .
I think he was just too powerful with the darkside and killed the students in self defense.  @panki had posted a simliar situation in the Anakin comics I think, where a couple Padawans were making fun of Anakin's slave background and he, having that big chip on his shoulder, threatened them with his superior force powers.

Also @panki , I thought it was the conch that was the symbol of power . It's been a while since I read Lord of the Flies.  I don't think the situation would've been that grave, since Luke would look incompetent, but there were maybe a few Padawan troublemakers OR had a right to hate Ben after finding out about his background since their family was hunted and killed by Vader.  Things just spiraled out of control.

@Search Your Feelings

The conch represented democracy and order as it was used to call all the groups together.....Piggy's glasses represented power because they could be used to build fire which they needed to be rescued....I agree that the situation wouldn't be exact...but I think there might have been existing rivalries that spun out of control very quickly when it became known that Ben was Vader's grandson.....Luke wouldn't be incompetent because he left a bunch of normal students and came back to a burnt mess......I imagine Luke as the Naval Officer in the Lord of the Flies, who is disappointed and embarrassed by what had occurred because he expected better from them...and like the naval officer, he turned his back to the scene.

The events couldn't have been over a prolonged period of time but happened over the span of a few hours....rising anger, old simmering resentments, confrontation, everybody fighting, a fire....it all would have happened very quickly....but I like the idea of the head whispering to Ben and warning him of the other students wanting to kill him and Snoke being like the elusive "beast" that the students are afraid of (if they are inspired by this novel, that is)... I'm just speculating here

So @MyOnlyHope directed me to something from Pablo's Visual Dictionary today (something that was actually made clear in the movie but that I personally never noticed):





So the cowl Kylo wears is actually burned, not ripped. And we know from the same Dictionary that the robe was a remnant from his training days with Luke. This tiny bit of information honestly created a whole separate line of possibility for the temple "massacre" for me. Everybody always assumed "massacre" = Kylo killed them directly (or at the very least that we were expected to believe that) but upon re-watching the Force Back they made it pretty obvious that the temple actually burned down. Now, one could say that it burned down after the massacre, but then why is Kylo's robe singed? And so much? There's barely anything left of it (just the hood and part of the shoulder). So here's my thought: what if the fire was started and the temple burned down while the other Jedi (and potentially Kylo) were still inside, and Kylo abandoned them, saving himself and leaving them to die? This is potentially a really interesting answer for me because it would lay all the blame on Kylo, he could be called the "Jedi Killer", but the act itself wouldn't necessarily have been "evil" (at least not in a school-shooter type of way).

I don't know if it really means anything. The robe was presumably destroyed on Starkiller Base, but somehow the idea of it being so badly "singed" caught my attention.