Character Development in The Last Jedi?

reylo1992 wrote:A cool post about Finn's character development from TFA to TLJ
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/166787156075/nonibear11-finn-aint-playing-no-more
Am I the only one who finds that this grey (FO) costume suits him so well?

@reylo1992

Nope, you’re not. That’s what I was thinking myself looking at the latest BTS yesterday. He really looks good in that uniform. Also I like the darker expression. My favorite Finn scene in TFA is in Maz Castle when he talks about the FO so I am very happy to see him with a darker mood in the TLJ promo.

Finn looks fantastic in the officer uniform, both with and without the hat, so I'm baffled that SW doesn't utilize officers more. I wish he gets a permanent officer uniform instead of this Han Wannabe outfit that looks very similar to Poe's Han Wannabe one. The Resistance is a fashion disaster for their love of mustard and orange. Learn from FO and the Empire.

That said, I have hard time figuring out what his character arc is. It seems to me that he's getting lots of cool skills (flies a skipper, rides a falthier, fights with a baton, becomes a bomber/gunner/pilot/whatever at some point) but that they don't seem to know what his role in the Resistance is supposed to be save that the Resistance is his endgame. I have a feeling that sparing Poe messed up with his arc cause they had to give Poe something to do and he may have gotten some of the trajectory that was originally Finn's. In fact, Poe's arc seems more clear. he's going from a hotshot pilot to a responsible leader. His place in the Resistance is known, while with Finn I have a feeling that they know they want him with the Resistance but not necessarily what exactly they want him to be within that organization.

vaderito wrote:Finn looks fantastic in the officer uniform, both with and without the hat, so I'm baffled that SW doesn't utilize officers more. I wish he gets a permanent officer uniform instead of this Han Wannabe outfit that looks very similar to Poe's Han Wannabe one. The Resistance is a fashion disaster for their love of mustard and orange. Learn from FO and the Empire.

That said, I have hard time figuring out what his character arc is. It seems to me that he's getting lots of cool skills (flies a skipper, rides a falthier, fights with a baton, becomes a bomber/gunner/pilot/whatever at some point) but that they don't seem to know what his role in the Resistance is supposed to be save that the Resistance is his endgame. I have a feeling that sparing Poe messed up with his arc cause they had to give Poe something to do and he may have gotten some of the trajectory that was originally Finn's. In fact, Poe's arc seems more clear. he's going from a hotshot pilot to a responsible leader. His place in the Resistance is known, while with Finn I have a feeling that they know they want him with the Resistance but not necessarily what exactly they want him to be within that organization.

@vaderito
I'm actually deeply questioning if that's what Poe's arc is going to be. From my perspective it's still fairly clear, it's just more a question of how far they go with it. We were talking about it a few pages back in this thread. Basically the SW.com description for his character says something about how his dedication to the war effort begins to frighten the Resistance as well as the First Order. We also know Leia slaps him and his speech in the trailer actually sounds pretty fanatical, even suicide-missiony. We're wondering if he's going to get kind of unhinged, maybe crack under the pressure of his new position or reel from a personal loss. He could engage in some risky or questionable behaviour and add an element of ambiguity to the war effort. While I expect his behaviour to be mostly justified, he may even go too far in the eyes of the Resistance, accuse Holdo of being a First Order sympathizer with no real evidence, risk his own life or the lives of others needlessly, etc. I'm kind of hoping this leads to him dying, but I'm hesitant to start that line of speculation.

As for Finn, his arc actually seems pretty clear to me. He's going to want to go find Rey, get talked into fighting for the Resistance by Rose and eventually have to dedicate himself fully to it.

@Frolickingfizzgig yes, he's gonna dedicate himself fully as what exactly? From what I've seen so far, he's a spy, a pilot, a gunner, etc. It's as if they can't decide what to settle for.

As for Poe, he ain't dying at least until 2020 cause Oscar said so. Which makes Adam playing coy after TFA even more funny. "I don't know if I'm gonna make it".

vaderito wrote:@Frolickingfizzgig yes, he's gonna dedicate himself fully as what exactly? From what I've seen so far, he's a spy, a pilot, a gunner, etc. It's as if they can't decide what to settle for.

As for Poe, he ain't dying at least until 2020 cause Oscar said so.

@vaderito
I'm guessing he's going to dedicate himself as a Resistance fighter. Not sure about specifics.

I don't remember Oscar saying that but I'll take your word on it.

I actually have a crazy theory about Poe without much evidence, but hear me out.

I agree that Poe is going to go rogue in some way. I don't think he will die, but I do think that he will question the direction the Resistance is heading in by the end of the movie. Rian said that Poe needed to be challenged in a major way. Well one of the biggest characteristics of Poe in TFA was his absolute confidence in the mission of the Resistance. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think he will go FO ... but if Kylo and Rey are united in some rogue way at the end of the movie, I could actually see him pivoting towards them.

So here's my admittedly, not slam dunk, evidence:

1. The Red Posters:

Kylo and Rey are turned to the right. Finn, Leia and Luke are all pivoted to the left. Poe's body is pivoted left, but his head is turning to the right, like he is considering another option.



2. The Theatrical Poster:

Poe is turned in the same direction as Kylo Ren. Now this could just be an issue of symmetry, but I thought it was worth mentioning.



3. Based on TFA and Leia slapping Poe, you would think that he would never work with Kylo. But what if after getting slapped (presuming here that the slap is about Kylo) that he learns more about Kylo and actually comes around a bit? It's my understanding that he thinks Kylo is a monster in the comics, so that could also be a big build-up to a major turnaround. Also, after possibly having issues with Holdo (especially if Holdo ends up wresting command from Leia), Poe may not be so in love with the Resistance anymore. Finally the mere idea of Kylo working with his mother's surrogate son and Poe working with the evil Kylo Ren is unthinkable. That's why I think they might do it.

4. John Boyega has talked about civil war in IX and the "war to end all wars". If Finn is in a civil war with somebody, who is it going to be? In my mind, it could only be against Rey or Poe. He has no investment in anyone else (unless Rose goes turncoat, but I *really* don't see that). Also, IMO the bromance should be tested, and I personally think that there is more to mine between Poe and Kylo because of the Leia connection. Also, if Finn finds Rey and Poe with Kylo, his head will explode. It will give JB some real angst to work with.

5. Daisy said something like supposedly bad people would do good things. (This always sounded pretty Kylo-ish). She also said that supposedly good people would do bad things. I always assumed that she might be referring to Luke there. But she could also be referring to Rey ... and Poe. Again, Poe is not going to be Hux's buddy or anything, but I could see disillusionment and radicalization with him. Also, if Rian is an actor's director, and it sounds like he is, he may give Oscar Isaac something more substantial to chew on than being a great hero.

@SoloSideCousin Not sure how realistic[like it] it will be, but I guess Kylo has to make some frieds or allies away from FO if he is to switch sides or simply not follow Snoke and FO. I do find it interesting that Poe is the only hero looking the exact in the same drection as villains as FO tied characters.

@SoloSideCousin
I agree. I'm definitely leaning harder and harder toward Poe falling down that extremist path. It doesn't have to go so far that he enters villainous territory, he could just show little care for his own life, possibly risk the lives of others and go "too far" in his efforts to crush the First Order. And it doesn't have to take up a whole lot of screen-time, either. We can just cut back every now and then to Poe devolving until BOOM, something goes down. It aligns with Daisy's quote about good people doing bad things a lot better than Rey, imo. While I don't know what Rey's going to decide in this one, I don't see her decision to enter into a partnership with Kylo as being a "bad" decision in the context of the story I hope we get. Poe doing hasty or extreme things definitely would fall under that for me!

Wow, good call on both the poster and Poe potentially learning about Kylo/Ben and reacting negatively, btw! I take the poster as a good indication, personally. It explains why Hux would be placed near his head (as a potential comparison on the other side of the war). I love this idea. If we have to spend time with Poe I want his scenes to at least be meaningful and provide a deep contrast.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I agree. I'm definitely leaning harder and harder toward Poe falling down that extremist path. It doesn't have to go so far that he enters villainous territory, he could just show little care for his own life, possibly risk the lives of others and go "too far" in his efforts to crush the First Order. And it doesn't have to take up a whole lot of screen-time, either. We can just cut back every now and then to Poe devolving until BOOM, something goes down. It aligns with Daisy's quote about good people doing bad things a lot better than Rey, imo. While I don't know what Rey's going to decide in this one, I don't see her decision to enter into a partnership with Kylo as being a "bad" decision in the context of the story I hope we get. Poe doing hasty or extreme things definitely would fall under that for me!

Wow, good call on both the poster and Poe potentially learning about Kylo/Ben and reacting negatively, btw! I take the poster as a good indication, personally. It explains why Hux would be placed near his head (as a potential comparison on the other side of the war). I love this idea. If we have to spend time with Poe I want his scenes to at least be meaningful and provide a deep contrast.

@FrolickingFizzgig

On the bolded, I don't think Rey entering into a partnership with Kylo is bad at all. When I was referring to Rey maybe doing "bad" things, I was thinking more of the "knocking down Luke" and "taking Luke's lightsaber" kind of thing. I actually don't see those things as being particularly bad if in the context of a struggle with Luke, but Daisy might be sensitive about those scenes.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I agree. I'm definitely leaning harder and harder toward Poe falling down that extremist path. It doesn't have to go so far that he enters villainous territory, he could just show little care for his own life, possibly risk the lives of others and go "too far" in his efforts to crush the First Order. And it doesn't have to take up a whole lot of screen-time, either. We can just cut back every now and then to Poe devolving until BOOM, something goes down. It aligns with Daisy's quote about good people doing bad things a lot better than Rey, imo. While I don't know what Rey's going to decide in this one, I don't see her decision to enter into a partnership with Kylo as being a "bad" decision in the context of the story I hope we get. Poe doing hasty or extreme things definitely would fall under that for me!

Wow, good call on both the poster and Poe potentially learning about Kylo/Ben and reacting negatively, btw! I take the poster as a good indication, personally. It explains why Hux would be placed near his head (as a potential comparison on the other side of the war). I love this idea. If we have to spend time with Poe I want his scenes to at least be meaningful and provide a deep contrast.

@FrolickingFizzgig

On the bolded, I don't think Rey entering into a partnership with Kylo is bad at all. When I was referring to Rey maybe doing "bad" things, I was thinking more of the "knocking down Luke" and "taking Luke's lightsaber" kind of thing. I actually don't see those things as being particularly bad if in the context of a struggle with Luke, but Daisy might be sensitive about those scenes.

@SoloSideCousin
Right, that makes sense. I can see why Daisy might be sensitive to that as well.

If extremist or rogue Poe turns out to be a thing I'll be ecstatic, honestly. I think I'm leaning more toward the former right now because I'm seeing Leia as being in the right and Poe being the one going too far as a contrast to Kylo, but both would be way, way, WAY more interesting than wasting Oscar Isaac on a cool, static hero dude. We've never had a character that boring in SW (in the films only, I should say... I haven't read the comics). If Rian gave him a bit of a heftier role that involves struggling with allegiances... awesome. Way to utilize what would have been wasted potential in 95% of cases.

So I know marketing can be misleading at times, but there's definitely a theme here with regards to Poe. Seeing everything together can help.







Poe: Now that the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance has escalated into total war, Poe is shining as a leader of a courageous flying battalion. But while he is brave and a skilled pilot, both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort.

"We have a spark that'll light the fire that'll burn the First Order down."

Me thinking about Poe actually experiencing interesting character development after 1.8 years of expecting very little from him:

Thank you for bringing this up with Poe!

I'll agree that when Daisy made the comment about "good people doing bad things", my mind went straight to Poe.

I do think that his arc is more likely to be one of disillusionment and doing something rash than, say, Finn's, which by all accounts should be about him becoming the hero that he's meant to be. The posters are a biggie, but between the demotion, the rumored slap, the rumored holding-a-gun-to-Holdo's head, I think we've gotten some signs that Poe could be headed into a morally ambiguous territory in TLJ.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Thank you for bringing this up with Poe!

I'll agree that when Daisy made the comment about "good people doing bad things", my mind went straight to Poe.

I do think that his arc is more likely to be one of disillusionment and doing something rash than, say, Finn's, which by all accounts should be about him becoming the hero that he's meant to be. The posters are a biggie, but between the demotion, the rumored slap, the rumored holding-a-gun-to-Holdo's head, I think we've gotten some signs that Poe could be headed into a morally ambiguous territory in TLJ.

@ISeeAnIsland

Especially if Paige has passed away due to FO aggression, I can completely see him going off the rails. You guys are right, Poe just got 1000x more interesting!

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Thank you for bringing this up with Poe!

I'll agree that when Daisy made the comment about "good people doing bad things", my mind went straight to Poe.

I do think that his arc is more likely to be one of disillusionment and doing something rash than, say, Finn's, which by all accounts should be about him becoming the hero that he's meant to be. The posters are a biggie, but between the demotion, the rumored slap, the rumored holding-a-gun-to-Holdo's head, I think we've gotten some signs that Poe could be headed into a morally ambiguous territory in TLJ.

@ISeeAnIsland

Especially if Paige has passed away due to FO aggression, I can completely see him going off the rails. You guys are right, Poe just got 1000x more interesting!

@IoJovi

Exactly, and rightly so! Oscar Isaac is a very good and very interesting actor. He did very well playing pretty imperfect characters in Inside Llewyn Davis and [i]A Most Violent Year[i]. He would be wasted playing just a standard hero. They could have gotten one of the "Chrises"to play that. Instead they got a Julliard grad who just just did Hamlet on Broadway. I really hope that there is some kind of Kylo and Poe interaction moving forward because Adam and Oscar will be amazing together.

Also I want to add Rian's comment (if no one has brought it yet) about Poe being under immense pressure.

And yes, Oscar can pull any sort of ambiguity as well.

I could see Poe doing something questionable in order to defeat the FO. Especially after that fiery speech he gave. It would give more him more depth if he is willing to be ruthless (so to speak) in his quest to defeat the FO. I hope it's true since Oscar would hit it out of the park.

Mmhm, and it's all a question of how far they want to go with it. Are we meant to be on Poe's side or Leia's side in all this? I'm considering if I would rather see Poe as more of a positive radical shaking things up for the Resistance because they're becoming something he no longer feels aligned with, or if I would rather see him as more of a negative radical going too far and losing sight of just what he's fighting for. I think one would take more screentime than the other, but both are interesting.

FWIW, Naruto has an interesting combo of both revolving around one of the younger characters, Shikamaru, who goes off the rails for revenge after his teacher is murdered. He does begin to intimidate his teammates for the war effort for a time because he had the closest relationship with their teacher. He does kind of go "too far" in the sense that he hunts down the murderer and sets a ruthless trap for him, but you're still on his side at the end of it all. It's very satisfying.

I look forward to re-visiting this discussion on character development in December to see how much the characters evolve (especially Poe and maybe Phasma)...whether they evolve in line with their story arcs in comics, novels or books or they take a radically different route.

panki wrote:I look forward to re-visiting this discussion on character development in December to see how much the characters evolve (especially Poe and maybe Phasma)...whether they evolve in line with their story arcs in comics, novels or books or they take a radically different route.

@panki

Given the interesting discussion surrounding Poe that we've had in the last day, and knowing he's one of your favorites, I want to know your take on where you see him going.  I really do love that he's going to be so much more than just the "captain of the football team" and the one character who seems to have it all together while everyone else struggles.  He's going to have his own struggle and I'm looking forward to it.

IoJovi wrote:

panki wrote:I look forward to re-visiting this discussion on character development in December to see how much the characters evolve (especially Poe and maybe Phasma)...whether they evolve in line with their story arcs in comics, novels or books or they take a radically different route.

@panki

Given the interesting discussion surrounding Poe that we've had in the last day, and knowing he's one of your favorites, I want to know your take on where you see him going.  I really do love that he's going to be so much more than just the "captain of the football team" and the one character who seems to have it all together while everyone else struggles.  He's going to have his own struggle and I'm looking forward to it.

@IoJovi

I have some views regarding the challenges Poe will face and his character arc based on things revealed in Poe's Logbook and the recent Poe comics (I included Phasma in my post because she also features in the Poe comics and her own limited comic series so there are clues as to what she could get upto), but I think it differs a lot from the general view point here of what what his arc should be. So I think its better for me to wait till the movie gets released.

panki wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

panki wrote:I look forward to re-visiting this discussion on character development in December to see how much the characters evolve (especially Poe and maybe Phasma)...whether they evolve in line with their story arcs in comics, novels or books or they take a radically different route.

@panki

Given the interesting discussion surrounding Poe that we've had in the last day, and knowing he's one of your favorites, I want to know your take on where you see him going.  I really do love that he's going to be so much more than just the "captain of the football team" and the one character who seems to have it all together while everyone else struggles.  He's going to have his own struggle and I'm looking forward to it.

@IoJovi

I have some views regarding the challenges Poe will face and his character arc based on things revealed in Poe's Logbook and the recent Poe comics (I included Phasma in my post because she also features in the Poe comics and her own limited comic series so there are clues as to what she could get upto), but I think it differs a lot from the general view point here of what what his arc should be. So I think its better for me to wait till the movie gets released.

@panki

Fair enough, but enquiring minds want to know!!    There’s tons we speculate on that may or may not play out the way we imagine it, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on where Poe is going.  This discussion has given me a renewed interest in him, and because of your love and knowledge of the character, I hold your opinion in high esteem and I really want to know what direction you think Poe is headed.