Character Development in The Last Jedi?

@FrolickingFizzgig I’m not sure what’s going on here to be honest. I thought this was a discussion about character development. I’m certainly not saying I’m right and everyone else is wrong, I’m merely speculating based on how I interpret what I’ve seen/read etc, isn’t that what everyone is doing? I do personally feel some of the analysis of Luke has been way off but that doesn’t mean mine is right. I was just trying to extrapolate from the Luke we knew in RoTJ to the one we will get in TLJ, taking into account the small snippets of information we’ve got from canon novels etc.

As for the Grey Jedi thing... I happen to agree with what Pablo said about it, is all. I get people are using that term for lack of a better way to explain it, and that’s fine. I actually took issue with PH and argued that when he started on about how dumb it was that people kept using that phrase. I don’t see Grey Jedi, as in using both light and dark side powers because the dark side always comes with a cost and it comes from negative intentions. I do see some version of Force Yin and Yang and Chi energy, and we have seen hints of this already in canon material, including The Legends of Luke Skywalker with ‘The Tide’. It all points to something more natural as an extension of raw power because Yin and Yang is in everything e.g water as in the ocean. The Yin is the calm, still water and the Yang is the stormy waves. Both exist in harmony. In martial arts this translates to the gentle flowing energy and soft movements of Yin punctuated by the opposite in Yang. Too much of either isn’t good, and I see Luke as having too much Yin and Kylo too much Yang. Rey seems to have a better balance, because she can be gentle but she’s in danger of going too much Yang with her agression. Anyway, whether we will see things go this way on screen or not, I’ve always been interested in Eastern philosophy and it is where George Lucas drew a lot of his inspiration from.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@panki
We don't know what his connection is yet with Paige. Maybe the ring around his neck figures into it somehow. Honestly, I have no idea. My only point is that Poe doesn't look like he's going to having a great, fun time in this movie. He looks sad in some promos, angry, upset, whatever. I think he's going to go off the deep end a little, you don't. Fair enough. I also think he may end up dying, but I tried to keep that line of speculation small because I know you really care for the character.

For the record even if he does go down an extremist path I expect him to either die a heroic death or move past it. If he's "scaring the Resistance and FO alike" specifically with regards to his dedication to war, my mind automatically goes to that place. It was just an idea, but I'm not going to react well to having my theorizing beat down because of loose canon that I've never read.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Poe looking sad, angry and upset doesn't automatically turn him into an extremist....yes, I care for the character and I am open about it but if canon showed Poe having a LI or showing a propensity for extremism, I'd be the first to accept that...however as I see nothing of the sort in either books or comics, I will question it.

As much as you're not reacting well to your theorizing being questioned, I have a similar response when something goes against established canon just because they are dismissive of a particular character.

@FrolickingFizzgig: even if I personally hope Poe have a different path- I do see your point and the speech he gave in the trailer kind of worries me... That sounds almost like he is about to go off on a suicide mission. But I truly hope I'm wrong.

@Panki
Look, I like Poe. I have no issue with the character and think it's unfair of you to assume I do. I've never once said I dislike him or want bad things to happen to him. I thought he was quippy and funny in TFA and have no problem with him staying that way TLJ, but Poe actually being challenged as a result of the war effort seems a hell of a lot more interesting to me. How does that contradict the canon?

Physically he's even reminding me a little of Kylo, what with the unkempt curly hair, bangs falling in his face and stubble. Compare it to his perfectly coifed hair and clean-shaven look in TFA. It seems to me they're going for that messy, confused persona even outwardly.

Poe in TFA


Poe in TLJ


For the record I think he looks way hotter in TLJ, but that's another matter...

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
Look, I like Poe. I have no issue with the character and think it's unfair of you to assume I do. I've never once said I dislike him or want bad things to happen to him. I thought he was quippy and funny in TFA and have no problem with him staying that way TLJ, but Poe actually being challenged as a result of the war effort seems a hell of a lot more interesting to me. How does that contradict the canon?

Physically he's even reminding me a little of Kylo, what with the unkempt curly hair, bangs falling in his face and stubble. Compare it to his perfectly coifed hair and clean-shaven look in TFA. It seems to me they're going for that messy, confused persona even outwardly.

Poe in TFA


Poe in TLJ


For the record I think he looks way hotter in TLJ, but that's another matter...

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with most of what you say and I think he will end up doing some extreme things...but I am only disagreeing with the part about him turning extremist because it goes against how they are developing him even in the latest comic arcs....he sounds like the type who might put his own life in jeopardy (so the suicide mission makes sense) but hurting others Saw Gerrera style doesnt make sense.

panki wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Panki
Look, I like Poe. I have no issue with the character and think it's unfair of you to assume I do. I've never once said I dislike him or want bad things to happen to him. I thought he was quippy and funny in TFA and have no problem with him staying that way TLJ, but Poe actually being challenged as a result of the war effort seems a hell of a lot more interesting to me. How does that contradict the canon?

Physically he's even reminding me a little of Kylo, what with the unkempt curly hair, bangs falling in his face and stubble. Compare it to his perfectly coifed hair and clean-shaven look in TFA. It seems to me they're going for that messy, confused persona even outwardly.

Poe in TFA


Poe in TLJ


For the record I think he looks way hotter in TLJ, but that's another matter...  

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with most of what you say and I think he will end up doing some extreme things...but I am only disagreeing with the part about him turning extremist because it goes against how they are developing him even in the latest comic arcs....he sounds like the type who might put his own life in jeopardy (so the suicide mission makes sense) but hurting others Saw Gerrera style doesnt make sense.

@panki
I don't think I ever said I wanted him to hurt people, though. Definitely not like Saw Gerrera. I do think it's possible that if he believes Rey, Finn, Rose, etc. are dead aboard the Supremecy he may end up doing something rash and extreme. We'll see. For now I'm taking it as a positive thing that I'm actually excited about the direction of the character now, whereas I was pretty unenthusiastic a few weeks ago.

Also, I now feel compelled to gush about how mature and unpolished all our characters look in this one. There's a grittiness to the style that wasn't always present when the story was in JJ's hands.

@FrolickingFizzgig I also meant to say that you seem to be taking every avenue of speculation I present to its extreme i.e I suggest Kylo might decide to fully embrace the dark side = him becoming a cartoon villain. Rey might end up as the Last Jedi = her as some perfect Jedi goddess etc etc.

I can imagine ways Kylo could go fully dark and become even more tragic and not cartoony at all. I don’t want this to happen, and it looks unlikely from what we’ve seen/heard. But until we know for sure, it’s viable speculation IMO.

As for Rey and becoming a Jedi - I’m personally tempering how I see things going with balance in the Force (Yin and Yang etc) with my scepticism that Lucasfilm will entirely do away with the Jedi brand and not just evolve it into New Jedi (shudders at memory of New Labour). At the risk of being shot down for quoting Rian Johnson, he did say that the meaning of the movie title ‘The Last Jedi’ would evolve throughout the movie and mean one thing at the start (Luke) and something else by the end. We can ignore what Rian has said or take a different interpretation but that’s merely the way I see it.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig I also meant to say that you seem to be taking every avenue of speculation I present to its extreme i.e I suggest Kylo might decide to fully embrace the dark side = him becoming a cartoon villain. Rey might end up as the Last Jedi = her as some perfect Jedi goddess etc etc.

I can imagine ways Kylo could go fully dark and become even more tragic and not cartoony at all. I don’t want this to happen, and it looks unlikely from what we’ve seen/heard. But until we know for sure, it’s viable speculation IMO.

As for Rey and becoming a Jedi - I’m personally tempering how I see things going with balance in the Force (Yin and Yang etc) with my scepticism that Lucasfilm will entirely do away with the Jedi brand and not just evolve it into New Jedi (shudders at memory of New Labour). At the risk of being shot down for quoting Rian Johnson, he did say that the meaning of the movie title ‘The Last Jedi’ would evolve throughout the movie and mean one thing at the start (Luke) and something else by the end. We can ignore what Rian has said or take a different interpretation but that’s merely the way I see it.

@Mrs Ben Solo
Sure, I can agree with this. But I will say that I felt you were also taking my speculation and warping it into its most extreme form. I.e. We say Luke seems scared, you say we're calling him a coward. I say the idea of the Jedi/Force will change, you say I'm advocating for LucasFilm doing away with the Jedi brand. I don't want the Jedi to die and never go mentioned again, either, but it seems like a foregone conclusion that whatever "new" Jedi emerge at the end of this trilogy will not be the Jedi we met in the PT. That doesn't mean there won't be Jedi anymore or that Rey (or even Kylo)! won't emerge as "Jedi"--but new Jedi--by the conclusion of this trilogy.

i agree, i also fell into the same sentiment in regards to luke a while back but it didnt really sit right with me, often it seems like luke does get relegated to simply being a plot device "angry old man rejects young girl and pushes her towards young dark side boy" and often going by theories and speculations, people dont know what to do with luke in the story. i feel like i dont see a lot of discussion generally around luke/kylo (especially when he will be the only family member left by episode 9 for kylo) in regards to episode 8. which is understandable since this is reylo forum but i also mean in other places as well. that's the other relationship im looking forward to see unfold aside from reylo, there is so much baggage there and it excites me to think what will become of their relationship because right now everything is ??. but no doubt luke will be important to both rey and kylo and its hard for me to speculate how that will unfold in the movie especially luke's A to B, is it something to do with the mysteries of the force and jedi of the past beyond the prequel. if so how does that develop his character, we know rian mentioned luke is no coward but he is devastated from what happened to kylo. im excited for lukes role in all this as well.i feel like rey will have to come to terms with her own demons from her abandonment and whatever else she learns in this ep and finds inner peace . i also think kylo will have to deal with his family since a big part of his characterisation is him rejecting them, so luke will definitely come into play, he has to also step up, possibly taking on leia's role as well.

btw glad you made this thread, sometimes i get tunnel vision when it comes to reylo and let everything else fall by the wayside, im not sure about the "us against world" ending for reylo by the end of this trilogy either.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Apologies for the double-post, just figured these character descriptions from SW.com might be useful in this thread.

Rey: Rey, now aware of the awakening power of the Force, travels to the hidden world of Ahch-To. She is looking for Luke Skywalker, who is the last Jedi Master in the Galaxy and the last hope for the Resistance. Rey was hoping to find a legendary hero – she instead found a man who disagrees with her expectations.

Finn: Finn, a former operative of the First Order, previously dedicated himself to the cause of fighting for the Resistance continues the fight. Now, he’s at a crossroads over his role in the war.

Poe: Now that the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance has escalated into total war, Poe is shining as a leader of a courageous flying battalion. But while he is brave and a skilled pilot, both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort.

Kylo Ren: Humiliated by his defeat at Rey’s hands, Kylo Ren redoubles his efforts to crush the Resistance. However, although his powers in the Dark Side continue to increase, it is still not enough to impress his shadowy mentor – First Order Supreme Leader Snoke.

Jedi Master Luke Skywalker: After his attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order was ruined, Luke Skywalker disappeared from the Galaxy in search of answers, leading him to the planet Ahch-To. Though he seems intent to live out a modest lifestyle away from the war, the Resistance needs the hero who defeated Darth Vader to stand a chance against the First Order.

General Leia Organa: Leia Organa, whose son betrayed her and fell to the Dark Side, is leading the struggling Resistance fleet. General Leia takes advantage of her decades of experience in order to halt the First Order’s advances.

Supreme Leader Snoke: Snoke, the shadowy leader of the First Order, finally emerges from the shadows to lead the First Order to victory after the destruction of Starkiller Base.

Poe's is the most interesting to me as I've been theorizing since the trailer dropped that there's something seriously up with him. Like, he's going to become majorly unhinged and go on a twisted suicide mission and try to destroy everything in this movie, kind of like Felldoh in Martin the Warrior (A Tale of Redwall). If he's scaring both the First Order and the Resistance now, nice. Sounds really promising for his character arc, way more interesting than him being the ace pilot who is perfect and beautiful and has lovely pure friendship with every character.

@FrolickingFizzgig

When I read the bit about Poe, I'll be honest, the "both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort" made me think of Saw. Not that he is going to go off and kill innocent women and children, but that he is willing to go beyond the normal boundaries of war, perhaps. So, he might be willing to be bolder, more aggressive than the norm. Like - perhaps he'd order a pre-emptive strike as opposed waiting to be attacked. Or perhaps he's more likely to kill soldiers or civilians combatants rather than take prisoners.

And since Rian said that he tried to give all characters challenges, maybe that is Poe's. He's having to figure out what it really means to be a leader beyond the cockpit of his X-wing.

I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

@panki

Combined with the new description of him and his action sequence...my mind went to reckless. He's even bolder, perhaps taking bigger chances.

I don't have an outline of why I got that impression, but it was the word that sprang to mind.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

@panki

Combined with the new description of him and his action sequence...my mind went to reckless. He's even bolder, perhaps taking bigger chances.

I don't have an outline of why I got that impression, but it was the word that sprang to mind.

@PalmettoBlue

His being bolder and taking chances is quite different from your post comparing him to Saw Gerrera and taking lives if he has to. That goes against everything in his canon story arcs.....reckless and putting himself in jeopardy makes sense- its the killing of innocents part I am referring to. Saw killed women and children without a thought.... Poe is nothing like that in comics or the novels so its unlikely they will take him down that path

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

@panki

Combined with the new description of him and his action sequence...my mind went to reckless. He's even bolder, perhaps taking bigger chances.

I don't have an outline of why I got that impression, but it was the word that sprang to mind.

@PalmettoBlue

His being bolder and taking chances is quite different from your post comparing him to Saw Gerrera and taking lives if he has to. That goes against everything in his canon story arcs.....reckless and putting himself in jeopardy makes sense- its the killing of innocents part I am referring to.  Saw killed women and children without a thought.... Poe is nothing like that in comics or the novels so its unlikely they will take him down that path

@panki

This is what I said:

"When I read the bit about Poe, I'll be honest, the "both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort" made me think of Saw. Not that he is going to go off and kill innocent women and children, but that he is willing to go beyond the normal boundaries of war, perhaps. So, he might be willing to be bolder, more aggressive than the norm. Like - perhaps he'd order a pre-emptive strike as opposed waiting to be attacked. Or perhaps he's more likely to kill soldiers or civilians combatants rather than take prisoners.

And since Rian said that he tried to give all characters challenges, maybe that is Poe's. He's having to figure out what it really means to be a leader beyond the cockpit of his X-wing."


At no point did I say that he was going to do the things that Saw did. In fact, I said "not that he is going to...." In order to be scary to the FO and the Resistance, perhaps a more reckless Poe, a bolder Poe, one who is willing to take greater risks is going to fit the bill. In addition, perhaps he's willing to order pre-emptive strikes or even kill soldiers and civilian combatants (NOT INNOCENTS) as opposed to taking prisoners. That person could scare both the FO and the Resistance.

I do not read the comics. I will take your word for it regarding his character. I was operating off of two things: the description of him and the gut-level reaction I had when watching the BTS reel.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

@panki

Combined with the new description of him and his action sequence...my mind went to reckless. He's even bolder, perhaps taking bigger chances.

I don't have an outline of why I got that impression, but it was the word that sprang to mind.

@PalmettoBlue

His being bolder and taking chances is quite different from your post comparing him to Saw Gerrera and taking lives if he has to. That goes against everything in his canon story arcs.....reckless and putting himself in jeopardy makes sense- its the killing of innocents part I am referring to.  Saw killed women and children without a thought.... Poe is nothing like that in comics or the novels so its unlikely they will take him down that path

@panki

This is what I said:

"When I read the bit about Poe, I'll be honest, the "both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort" made me think of Saw. Not that he is going to go off and kill innocent women and children, but that he is willing to go beyond the normal boundaries of war, perhaps. So, he might be willing to be bolder, more aggressive than the norm. Like - perhaps he'd order a pre-emptive strike as opposed waiting to be attacked. Or perhaps he's more likely to kill soldiers or civilians combatants rather than take prisoners.

And since Rian said that he tried to give all characters challenges, maybe that is Poe's. He's having to figure out what it really means to be a leader beyond the cockpit of his X-wing."


At no point did I say that he was going to do the things that Saw did. In fact, I said "not that he is going to...." In order to be scary to the FO and the Resistance, perhaps a more reckless Poe, a bolder Poe, one who is willing to take greater risks is going to fit the bill. In addition, perhaps he's willing to order pre-emptive strikes or even kill soldiers and civilian combatants (NOT INNOCENTS) as opposed to taking prisoners. That person could scare both the FO and the Resistance.

I do not read the comics. I will take your word for it regarding his character. I was operating off of two things: the description of him and the gut-level reaction I had when watching the BTS reel.

@PalmettoBlue
He definitely looked reckless in that shot of him ducking into the trench. Leia slaps him for something in this movie, too, so it seems likely that extreme recklessness and lack of care for his own safety could be the issue. As in, the Resistance and Leia are afraid for Poe because he goes further and further. I'm hoping into more zealous territory than that, but I guess we'll see?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:I just watched the new BTS reel from USA today - here's the word that sprang to mind vis a vis Poe: Reckless.

I think he's more reckless.

@PalmettoBlue

I saw the new BTS reel as well.

Where was he reckless? The only scene where he is doing anything remotely action oriented was sliding into a trench on Crait (from his ski speeder) and that could be for any reason, whetehr fighting the FO or trying to defend the resistance base.

@panki

Combined with the new description of him and his action sequence...my mind went to reckless. He's even bolder, perhaps taking bigger chances.

I don't have an outline of why I got that impression, but it was the word that sprang to mind.

@PalmettoBlue

His being bolder and taking chances is quite different from your post comparing him to Saw Gerrera and taking lives if he has to. That goes against everything in his canon story arcs.....reckless and putting himself in jeopardy makes sense- its the killing of innocents part I am referring to.  Saw killed women and children without a thought.... Poe is nothing like that in comics or the novels so its unlikely they will take him down that path

@panki

This is what I said:

"When I read the bit about Poe, I'll be honest, the "both the First Order and the Resistance alike are starting to fear his dedication to the war effort" made me think of Saw. Not that he is going to go off and kill innocent women and children, but that he is willing to go beyond the normal boundaries of war, perhaps. So, he might be willing to be bolder, more aggressive than the norm. Like - perhaps he'd order a pre-emptive strike as opposed waiting to be attacked. Or perhaps he's more likely to kill soldiers or civilians combatants rather than take prisoners.

And since Rian said that he tried to give all characters challenges, maybe that is Poe's. He's having to figure out what it really means to be a leader beyond the cockpit of his X-wing."


At no point did I say that he was going to do the things that Saw did. In fact, I said "not that he is going to...." In order to be scary to the FO and the Resistance, perhaps a more reckless Poe, a bolder Poe, one who is willing to take greater risks is going to fit the bill. In addition, perhaps he's willing to order pre-emptive strikes or even kill soldiers and civilian combatants (NOT INNOCENTS) as opposed to taking prisoners. That person could scare both the FO and the Resistance.

I do not read the comics. I will take your word for it regarding his character. I was operating off of two things: the description of him and the gut-level reaction I had when watching the BTS reel.

@PalmettoBlue
He definitely looked reckless in that shot of him ducking into the trench. Leia slaps him for something in this movie, too, so it seems likely that extreme recklessness and lack of care for his own safety could be the issue. As in, the Resistance and Leia are afraid for Poe because he goes further and further. I'm hoping into more zealous territory than that, but I guess we'll see?

@FrolickingFizzgig

Let's not also forget the early rumor of there being a scene that was shot on a Resistance ship where Poe pulls a gun on Holdo. So, we have bits and pieces coming in from multiple sources showing that Poe could potentially become a bit of a loose canon in TLJ.

Ok, I’ll line up for Reckless!Poe. I am personally happy if they tear down his “cool pilot on the block” a little. No one should be spared. They should all suffer. That’s what we want to see in SW. Low point everyone and then way back up.

I stumbled across someone mentioning a BTS reel and just watched it. As usual someone is missing in there. Wouldn’t want us to know where he is hanging around during the movie, right? Is that discussed anywhere in the forum. So many active threads today, I am lost.

SanghaRen wrote:Ok, I’ll line up for Reckless!Poe. I am personally happy if they tear down his “cool pilot on the block” a little. No one should be spared. They should all suffer. That’s what we want to see in SW. Low point everyone and then way back up.

I stumbled across someone mentioning a BTS reel and just watched it. As usual someone is missing in there. Wouldn’t want us to know where he is hanging around during the movie, right? Is that discussed anywhere in the forum. So many active threads today, I am lost.

@SanghaRen

I have read maybe 50% of this thread because some of the posts have been long, so I apologize if this has already been conveyed.  Rian Johnson has said every character will be tested, and I *believe* I heard somewhere Poe gets demoted some time in the movie, presumably by Leia.  Now, we all know Poe seems to be the big hot shot "best pilot in the resistance", and I do get an underlying hint of cockiness to him.  Being demoted is going to knock him for a loop and I'm certain he'll struggle with it.  No, I don't see him going full-on Saw Guerrara, with murdering innocent children.  

I'm actually intrigued at the reason as to why he gets demoted, and I'm going speculate for now it's because he gets a bit reckless, especially if it is true he's already in a relationship with Paige and she gets killed.

IoJovi wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:Ok, I’ll line up for Reckless!Poe. I am personally happy if they tear down his “cool pilot on the block” a little. No one should be spared. They should all suffer. That’s what we want to see in SW. Low point everyone and then way back up.

I stumbled across someone mentioning a BTS reel and just watched it. As usual someone is missing in there. Wouldn’t want us to know where he is hanging around during the movie, right? Is that discussed anywhere in the forum. So many active threads today, I am lost.

@SanghaRen

I have read maybe 50% of this thread because some of the posts have been long, so I apologize if this has already been conveyed.  Rian Johnson has said every character will be tested, and I *believe* I heard somewhere Poe gets demoted some time in the movie, presumably by Leia.  Now, we all know Poe seems to be the big hot shot "best pilot in the resistance", and I do get an underlying hint of cockiness to him.  Being demoted is going to knock him for a loop and I'm certain he'll struggle with it.  No, I don't see him going full-on Saw Guerrara, with murdering innocent children.  

I'm actually intrigued at the reason as to why he gets demoted, and I'm going speculate for now it's because he gets a bit reckless, especially if it is true he's already in a relationship with Paige and she gets killed.

@IoJovi

The Poe-getting-demoted rumor comes from the fact that Poe goes into TLJ with the title "commander", but in his later-in-TLJ costume, he as the title "captain". The title "captain" has a lower rank than "commander".

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resistance_rank_badge

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:Ok, I’ll line up for Reckless!Poe. I am personally happy if they tear down his “cool pilot on the block” a little. No one should be spared. They should all suffer. That’s what we want to see in SW. Low point everyone and then way back up.

I stumbled across someone mentioning a BTS reel and just watched it. As usual someone is missing in there. Wouldn’t want us to know where he is hanging around during the movie, right? Is that discussed anywhere in the forum. So many active threads today, I am lost.

@SanghaRen

I have read maybe 50% of this thread because some of the posts have been long, so I apologize if this has already been conveyed.  Rian Johnson has said every character will be tested, and I *believe* I heard somewhere Poe gets demoted some time in the movie, presumably by Leia.  Now, we all know Poe seems to be the big hot shot "best pilot in the resistance", and I do get an underlying hint of cockiness to him.  Being demoted is going to knock him for a loop and I'm certain he'll struggle with it.  No, I don't see him going full-on Saw Guerrara, with murdering innocent children.  

I'm actually intrigued at the reason as to why he gets demoted, and I'm going speculate for now it's because he gets a bit reckless, especially if it is true he's already in a relationship with Paige and she gets killed.

@IoJovi

The Poe-getting-demoted rumor comes from the fact that Poe goes into TLJ with the title "commander", but in his later-in-TLJ costume, he as the title "captain". The title "captain" has a lower rank than "commander".

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resistance_rank_badge

@ISeeAnIsland

Awesome, thanks for the clarification! It’s cool to see hard cold facts like that which still backs this up.

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:Ok, I’ll line up for Reckless!Poe. I am personally happy if they tear down his “cool pilot on the block” a little. No one should be spared. They should all suffer. That’s what we want to see in SW. Low point everyone and then way back up.

I stumbled across someone mentioning a BTS reel and just watched it. As usual someone is missing in there. Wouldn’t want us to know where he is hanging around during the movie, right? Is that discussed anywhere in the forum. So many active threads today, I am lost.

@SanghaRen

I have read maybe 50% of this thread because some of the posts have been long, so I apologize if this has already been conveyed.  Rian Johnson has said every character will be tested, and I *believe* I heard somewhere Poe gets demoted some time in the movie, presumably by Leia.  Now, we all know Poe seems to be the big hot shot "best pilot in the resistance", and I do get an underlying hint of cockiness to him.  Being demoted is going to knock him for a loop and I'm certain he'll struggle with it.  No, I don't see him going full-on Saw Guerrara, with murdering innocent children.  

I'm actually intrigued at the reason as to why he gets demoted, and I'm going speculate for now it's because he gets a bit reckless, especially if it is true he's already in a relationship with Paige and she gets killed.

@IoJovi

The Poe-getting-demoted rumor comes from the fact that Poe goes into TLJ with the title "commander", but in his later-in-TLJ costume, he as the title "captain". The title "captain" has a lower rank than "commander".

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resistance_rank_badge

@ISeeAnIsland

Awesome, thanks for the clarification! It’s cool to see hard cold facts like that which still backs this up.

@IoJovi

Agreed! And this one did, in fact, come from a Lego toy leak. People noticed the change in title in the Crait set vs. Poe's earlier title.

It was said somewhere that Rey ultimately pieces together shattered Luke and redeems him in a certain way. Wonder where this leaves Kylo? I'm a sucker a for redemption in general and would love to see it with Kylo. But there is always what if but currently still firmly on board of redemption arc in some form. People see redemption differently but simply Kylo defecting from FO.

Luke will play a key part to Rey, I imagine surrogate father but before that she'll see that things are not always as they seem or you want them to appear. There will be a lot of tough love from Luke towards, which will make their relationship for the better.

As for Kylo. A bit trickier. Personally, I'm not sure he'll play that much of a part in Kylo's redemption or arc in general. That probably goes to Leia and Rey.

Journey for Luke will be from an unsure, shattered shell of himself to more confident, sure Jedi master willing to help the Resistance. Not sure abour redeeming Kylo, because couldn't give a damn about him.

For Rey from again confusing feelings about her powers, she finds a purpose and a family.

Kylo in the best case scenario from self-hating villain to little bit more sure of himself kind of person. I wouldn't call him a hero, maybe a byronic hero.

Saracene wrote:Personally, I’m sceptical about getting fixated on the sound bites from the director too much. It’s like, in one instance Rian describes Kylo as half of the protagonist, in another he refers to him as a villain who’s fantastic because he’s a weak villain, or a villain whose flaws are clear to see (or something to this effect). If you believe that Kylo is a protagonist, you can find something that backs this up, if you think he’s a villain you can also isolate a specific comment to back this up. It’s like, Reylos often bring up JJ’s commentary quote about a “prince” in the Takodana scene, but omit the bit where, in the same breath, he also says, “you’re going to have the bad guy, who’s probably dressed in black”, which obviously refers to Kylo.

Apart from many other things, for Kylo to commit to the dark side at the end of TLJ makes for a weird arc. He struggles in TFA, kills his father to seal the dark side deal... then struggles some more in TLJ, then fully commits to the dark side?

@Saracene

You can be a villain or a hero and still be a protagonist. It's that Rian is trying to be careful with his wording. Adam himself said that Kylo sees himself as righteous individual.

Re: Kylo’s redemption, while I have zero doubts about the final outcome I’ve always seen it as a process that happens over three films. With regards to TLJ, I probably see it the same way I see the romantic endgame: the movie will set him on a path but there won’t be fully realised redemption yet. I guess the meaning of “redemption” can be hard to define. In Vader’s case, one self-sacrificing act at the very end followed by death was enough. Kylo’s redemption I think will follow a slower model if you like, where redemption can often be preceded by an act of breaking away that in itself doesn’t make up redemption, and can leave the character in an uncertain state where they don’t really know where they stand. Especially if their breaking away is impulsive.

A cool post about Finn's character development from TFA to TLJ
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/166787156075/nonibear11-finn-aint-playing-no-more
Am I the only one who finds that this grey (FO) costume suits him so well?