Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors

MindAndMagic wrote:Watched it early this morning. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I personally lOVED it. It’s very unconventional, atypical SW with an unusual vision that may be an acquired taste, but it works for me. I see TLJ as the imperfect, distorted version of what IX will be. The Rey and Kylo plot is everything. I didn’t expect I would be so on board with such a take, but I was. At its heart it’s a story about grief, loss, leaving the shadows of the past behind to find your place, the pain of finding this one special connection that comes with so much promise yet can’t be fully realised yet. It’s romantic and tragic at the same time. The moment when their fingers touched and the Force theme started felt so intimate and defining for both of them, the looks on their faces, the hope, the longing, the desperate desire to belong evident in their eyes. It was beautiful. The bare skin contact symbolized their eternal unity.

Kylo’s taunts mean nothing, it’s all in his eyes, his shaking hands, his trembling voice, his desperate whisper “please” to Rey, the way he eagerly removes his glove to touch her. This is where he gives himself away. It’s his own insecurity speaking, even though he is right about Rey needing to let go of the past. Deep down I think he wishes he were a nobody too. He feels her inner strength and wishes he had it in him. He needs her to keep going and without her he will fall apart, it was evident from his reaction to her rejection. He doesn’t feel like he belongs anywhere, wants to be with Rey and she wants to be with him too, but not like this. Not with him still so terribly misguided. Good thing there’s a whole other movie to deal with that.

It’s very much a movie of near misses and unrealised longing, crushed hopes and dreams, but that is to expected for the middle chapter and it sets up the inevitable resolution in IX. They tease us with Kylo’s permanent turn with the epic Force theme starting when Rey realises he is fighting on her side now, but it’s still too early for a happy ending (still AMAZING combo fight, perfect synchrony). You could really feel Rey’s pain at the end, she was so hopeful and so certain he would come back with her. The way she calls him Ben so quietly and tenderly throughout, especially near the end when her voice cracks, is just heartbreaking. She wants so bad to find belonging with him, but at the same time is deeply hurt and disappointed by his chosen path. It’s just a matter of time before he falls at her feet though. He will have to prove himself worthy of her.

THE END SCENE, OMG, THE END SCENE! IMO the perfect way to end chapter 2 where everything SEEMINGLY goes to hell. Kylo is at his absolute worst right now and I’m loving it! This last shot of him kneeling down on the ground, having lost everything he could have had (i.e. Rey’s love and support), exchanging one last sad look with her, gripping the dices from the Falcon tightly (oh, he hasn’t forsaken his family and never will, Ben Solo will always be there). Rey may have let go of her past, finally, but Ben hasn’t. Not by a long shot. He has yet to defeat his inner demons and learn to forgive. Ben will definitely reconcile with Luke in some form, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him. I can even imagine Luke’s Force ghost taunting him: “You’ve lost her, haven’t you. You really screwed up this time, kid.” “Shut up, uncle” xD Rey hasn’t truly given up on Ben either, this was obvious in their parting scene, not after everything that happened b/w them. She’ll never have that connection with anyone else. They’re both miserable this way. Also, as the protagonist, Rey has to be right about Ben. She calls him that way because that’s who he is. Redemption is a done deal, we just have to be patient. The middle chapter is meant to make viewers question if Ben’s truly gone for good, it has to feel as if all hope is lost. But of course, in the tradition of SW, it isn’t. Ben will be where he belongs by the end of IX. In Rey’s arms, probably crying. Have faith. Redemption and love will triumph.

ReyofLightSide wrote:I wonder if their visions of the future are both right? They may end up in the gray, and so both "turn" and rule side by side.

SkyStar wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:I wonder if their visions of the future are both right? They may end up in the gray, and so both "turn" and rule side by side.

@ReyofLightSide

I was also wondering about it. And also if it will be more explained in the novel.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

SkyStar wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:I wonder if their visions of the future are both right? They may end up in the gray, and so both "turn" and rule side by side.

@ReyofLightSide

I was also wondering about it. And also if it will be more explained in the novel.

@SkyStar

I hope so, but truly, they can't go on explicating everything in novels.

Teo oswald wrote:Is it possible that kylo's vision refers to the scene of combat against the Praetorian guards?  or he just means the future vision?

Teo oswald wrote:

MindAndMagic wrote:Watched it early this morning. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I personally lOVED it. It’s very unconventional, atypical SW with an unusual vision that may be an acquired taste, but it works for me. I see TLJ as the imperfect, distorted version of what IX will be. The Rey and Kylo plot is everything. I didn’t expect I would be so on board with such a take, but I was. At its heart it’s a story about grief, loss, leaving the shadows of the past behind to find your place, the pain of finding this one special connection that comes with so much promise yet can’t be fully realised yet. It’s romantic and tragic at the same time. The moment when their fingers touched and the Force theme started felt so intimate and defining for both of them, the looks on their faces, the hope, the longing, the desperate desire to belong evident in their eyes. It was beautiful. The bare skin contact symbolized their eternal unity.

Kylo’s taunts mean nothing, it’s all in his eyes, his shaking hands, his trembling voice, his desperate whisper “please” to Rey, the way he eagerly removes his glove to touch her. This is where he gives himself away. It’s his own insecurity speaking, even though he is right about Rey needing to let go of the past. Deep down I think he wishes he were a nobody too. He feels her inner strength and wishes he had it in him. He needs her to keep going and without her he will fall apart, it was evident from his reaction to her rejection. He doesn’t feel like he belongs anywhere, wants to be with Rey and she wants to be with him too, but not like this. Not with him still so terribly misguided. Good thing there’s a whole other movie to deal with that.

It’s very much a movie of near misses and unrealised longing, crushed hopes and dreams, but that is to expected for the middle chapter and it sets up the inevitable resolution in IX. They tease us with Kylo’s permanent turn with the epic Force theme starting when Rey realises he is fighting on her side now, but it’s still too early for a happy ending (still AMAZING combo fight, perfect synchrony). You could really feel Rey’s pain at the end, she was so hopeful and so certain he would come back with her. The way she calls him Ben so quietly and tenderly throughout, especially near the end when her voice cracks, is just heartbreaking. She wants so bad to find belonging with him, but at the same time is deeply hurt and disappointed by his chosen path. It’s just a matter of time before he falls at her feet though. He will have to prove himself worthy of her.

THE END SCENE, OMG, THE END SCENE! IMO the perfect way to end chapter 2 where everything SEEMINGLY goes to hell. Kylo is at his absolute worst right now and I’m loving it! This last shot of him kneeling down on the ground, having lost everything he could have had (i.e. Rey’s love and support), exchanging one last sad look with her, gripping the dices from the Falcon tightly (oh, he hasn’t forsaken his family and never will, Ben Solo will always be there). Rey may have let go of her past, finally, but Ben hasn’t. Not by a long shot. He has yet to defeat his inner demons and learn to forgive. Ben will definitely reconcile with Luke in some form, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him. I can even imagine Luke’s Force ghost taunting him: “You’ve lost her, haven’t you. You really screwed up this time, kid.” “Shut up, uncle” xD Rey hasn’t truly given up on Ben either, this was obvious in their parting scene, not after everything that happened b/w them. She’ll never have that connection with anyone else. They’re both miserable this way. Also, as the protagonist, Rey has to be right about Ben. She calls him that way because that’s who he is. Redemption is a done deal, we just have to be patient. The middle chapter is meant to make viewers question if Ben’s truly gone for good, it has to feel as if all hope is lost. But of course, in the tradition of SW, it isn’t. Ben will be where he belongs by the end of IX. In Rey’s arms, probably crying. Have faith. Redemption and love will triumph.

@MindAndMagic

I fully agree with everything you said

when Rey and Kylo touch each other, I thought I saw tarzan and jane and their first meeting, hands together. It is something very intimate and strong.
As you said, apparently the ending goes down to hell
and maybe some reylo fans are now demoralized. my dear fans, they can not immediately give us roses and hearts, it is already so much that they have given us a lot of reylo scenes. In any case there is hope, a lot I would say because, point number one: Luke says a sentence to leia that I do not remember sorry, point number two: their destinies are intertwined, they saw their future.
point number three: balance, there must be light and darkness.
and final point: star wars is a story for children.
I believe that kylo will redeem itself but will remain in the dark side because one of the two must necessarily. maybe with his power he will control the FO mentally so nobody will betray anyone and will work with Rey and company.

Meomeo wrote:

RosiePancake wrote:

grimbergen wrote:I do not know what's going to happen in episode IX but I can imagine that Kylo will have problems with Hux. That's going to be fun and exciting to watch. They're an iconic couple for me. I'm totally calm with Reylo.They have set a romance in this episode and they will not forget that as if by magic. To think otherwise is to be in denial. No one builds all this in two and a half hours of film and then forgets it.

@grimbergen

Yes, and don't forget that JJ praised Rian's TLJ script and he wished he was the one who directed TLJ. Reylo is the endgame, and both Rian and JJ are on board with it.

@RosiePancake
Do we have proof that JJ ship Reylo as well? Thanks.

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Teo oswald wrote:

MindAndMagic wrote:Watched it early this morning. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I personally lOVED it. It’s very unconventional, atypical SW with an unusual vision that may be an acquired taste, but it works for me. I see TLJ as the imperfect, distorted version of what IX will be. The Rey and Kylo plot is everything. I didn’t expect I would be so on board with such a take, but I was. At its heart it’s a story about grief, loss, leaving the shadows of the past behind to find your place, the pain of finding this one special connection that comes with so much promise yet can’t be fully realised yet. It’s romantic and tragic at the same time. The moment when their fingers touched and the Force theme started felt so intimate and defining for both of them, the looks on their faces, the hope, the longing, the desperate desire to belong evident in their eyes. It was beautiful. The bare skin contact symbolized their eternal unity.

Kylo’s taunts mean nothing, it’s all in his eyes, his shaking hands, his trembling voice, his desperate whisper “please” to Rey, the way he eagerly removes his glove to touch her. This is where he gives himself away. It’s his own insecurity speaking, even though he is right about Rey needing to let go of the past. Deep down I think he wishes he were a nobody too. He feels her inner strength and wishes he had it in him. He needs her to keep going and without her he will fall apart, it was evident from his reaction to her rejection. He doesn’t feel like he belongs anywhere, wants to be with Rey and she wants to be with him too, but not like this. Not with him still so terribly misguided. Good thing there’s a whole other movie to deal with that.

It’s very much a movie of near misses and unrealised longing, crushed hopes and dreams, but that is to expected for the middle chapter and it sets up the inevitable resolution in IX. They tease us with Kylo’s permanent turn with the epic Force theme starting when Rey realises he is fighting on her side now, but it’s still too early for a happy ending (still AMAZING combo fight, perfect synchrony). You could really feel Rey’s pain at the end, she was so hopeful and so certain he would come back with her. The way she calls him Ben so quietly and tenderly throughout, especially near the end when her voice cracks, is just heartbreaking. She wants so bad to find belonging with him, but at the same time is deeply hurt and disappointed by his chosen path. It’s just a matter of time before he falls at her feet though. He will have to prove himself worthy of her.

THE END SCENE, OMG, THE END SCENE! IMO the perfect way to end chapter 2 where everything SEEMINGLY goes to hell. Kylo is at his absolute worst right now and I’m loving it! This last shot of him kneeling down on the ground, having lost everything he could have had (i.e. Rey’s love and support), exchanging one last sad look with her, gripping the dices from the Falcon tightly (oh, he hasn’t forsaken his family and never will, Ben Solo will always be there). Rey may have let go of her past, finally, but Ben hasn’t. Not by a long shot. He has yet to defeat his inner demons and learn to forgive. Ben will definitely reconcile with Luke in some form, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him. I can even imagine Luke’s Force ghost taunting him: “You’ve lost her, haven’t you. You really screwed up this time, kid.” “Shut up, uncle” xD Rey hasn’t truly given up on Ben either, this was obvious in their parting scene, not after everything that happened b/w them. She’ll never have that connection with anyone else. They’re both miserable this way. Also, as the protagonist, Rey has to be right about Ben. She calls him that way because that’s who he is. Redemption is a done deal, we just have to be patient. The middle chapter is meant to make viewers question if Ben’s truly gone for good, it has to feel as if all hope is lost. But of course, in the tradition of SW, it isn’t. Ben will be where he belongs by the end of IX. In Rey’s arms, probably crying. Have faith. Redemption and love will triumph.

@MindAndMagic

I fully agree with everything you said

when Rey and Kylo touch each other, I thought I saw tarzan and jane and their first meeting, hands together. It is something very intimate and strong.
As you said, apparently the ending goes down to hell
and maybe some reylo fans are now demoralized. my dear fans, they can not immediately give us roses and hearts, it is already so much that they have given us a lot of reylo scenes. In any case there is hope, a lot I would say because, point number one: Luke says a sentence to leia that I do not remember sorry, point number two: their destinies are intertwined, they saw their future.
point number three: balance, there must be light and darkness.
and final point: star wars is a story for children.
I believe that kylo will redeem itself but will remain in the dark side because one of the two must necessarily. maybe with his power he will control the FO mentally so nobody will betray anyone and will work with Rey and company.

@Teo oswald

If he remains on the dark side, then what's his point? The conflict would go on and on forever, just like it happens between the FO and the Resistance.

Teo oswald wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Teo oswald wrote:

MindAndMagic wrote:Watched it early this morning. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I personally lOVED it. It’s very unconventional, atypical SW with an unusual vision that may be an acquired taste, but it works for me. I see TLJ as the imperfect, distorted version of what IX will be. The Rey and Kylo plot is everything. I didn’t expect I would be so on board with such a take, but I was. At its heart it’s a story about grief, loss, leaving the shadows of the past behind to find your place, the pain of finding this one special connection that comes with so much promise yet can’t be fully realised yet. It’s romantic and tragic at the same time. The moment when their fingers touched and the Force theme started felt so intimate and defining for both of them, the looks on their faces, the hope, the longing, the desperate desire to belong evident in their eyes. It was beautiful. The bare skin contact symbolized their eternal unity.

Kylo’s taunts mean nothing, it’s all in his eyes, his shaking hands, his trembling voice, his desperate whisper “please” to Rey, the way he eagerly removes his glove to touch her. This is where he gives himself away. It’s his own insecurity speaking, even though he is right about Rey needing to let go of the past. Deep down I think he wishes he were a nobody too. He feels her inner strength and wishes he had it in him. He needs her to keep going and without her he will fall apart, it was evident from his reaction to her rejection. He doesn’t feel like he belongs anywhere, wants to be with Rey and she wants to be with him too, but not like this. Not with him still so terribly misguided. Good thing there’s a whole other movie to deal with that.

It’s very much a movie of near misses and unrealised longing, crushed hopes and dreams, but that is to expected for the middle chapter and it sets up the inevitable resolution in IX. They tease us with Kylo’s permanent turn with the epic Force theme starting when Rey realises he is fighting on her side now, but it’s still too early for a happy ending (still AMAZING combo fight, perfect synchrony). You could really feel Rey’s pain at the end, she was so hopeful and so certain he would come back with her. The way she calls him Ben so quietly and tenderly throughout, especially near the end when her voice cracks, is just heartbreaking. She wants so bad to find belonging with him, but at the same time is deeply hurt and disappointed by his chosen path. It’s just a matter of time before he falls at her feet though. He will have to prove himself worthy of her.

THE END SCENE, OMG, THE END SCENE! IMO the perfect way to end chapter 2 where everything SEEMINGLY goes to hell. Kylo is at his absolute worst right now and I’m loving it! This last shot of him kneeling down on the ground, having lost everything he could have had (i.e. Rey’s love and support), exchanging one last sad look with her, gripping the dices from the Falcon tightly (oh, he hasn’t forsaken his family and never will, Ben Solo will always be there). Rey may have let go of her past, finally, but Ben hasn’t. Not by a long shot. He has yet to defeat his inner demons and learn to forgive. Ben will definitely reconcile with Luke in some form, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him. I can even imagine Luke’s Force ghost taunting him: “You’ve lost her, haven’t you. You really screwed up this time, kid.” “Shut up, uncle” xD Rey hasn’t truly given up on Ben either, this was obvious in their parting scene, not after everything that happened b/w them. She’ll never have that connection with anyone else. They’re both miserable this way. Also, as the protagonist, Rey has to be right about Ben. She calls him that way because that’s who he is. Redemption is a done deal, we just have to be patient. The middle chapter is meant to make viewers question if Ben’s truly gone for good, it has to feel as if all hope is lost. But of course, in the tradition of SW, it isn’t. Ben will be where he belongs by the end of IX. In Rey’s arms, probably crying. Have faith. Redemption and love will triumph.

@MindAndMagic

I fully agree with everything you said

when Rey and Kylo touch each other, I thought I saw tarzan and jane and their first meeting, hands together. It is something very intimate and strong.
As you said, apparently the ending goes down to hell
and maybe some reylo fans are now demoralized. my dear fans, they can not immediately give us roses and hearts, it is already so much that they have given us a lot of reylo scenes. In any case there is hope, a lot I would say because, point number one: Luke says a sentence to leia that I do not remember sorry, point number two: their destinies are intertwined, they saw their future.
point number three: balance, there must be light and darkness.
and final point: star wars is a story for children.
I believe that kylo will redeem itself but will remain in the dark side because one of the two must necessarily. maybe with his power he will control the FO mentally so nobody will betray anyone and will work with Rey and company.

@Teo oswald

If he remains on the dark side, then what's his point? The conflict would go on and on forever, just like it happens between the FO and the Resistance.

@Maria Antonietta

if kylo changes sides it's just.... the light side prevails on the dark side, there would be no balance. if kylo stays in the dark side but does good things with the help of Rey and company, the dark side would no longer be seen as a bad thing.

It is time for the first order and the rebels to collaborate with others. This is what I meant.

SkyStar wrote:So what will bring the end of all wars? A peace treaty? A bigger war? Love? ^_^

Maria Antonietta wrote:

SkyStar wrote:So what will bring the end of all wars? A peace treaty? A bigger war? Love? ^_^

@SkyStar

The end should be a movie where I can find everything I love about SW and it's not so "real life/world like". I want the magic back.

SkyStar wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

SkyStar wrote:So what will bring the end of all wars? A peace treaty? A bigger war? Love? ^_^

@SkyStar

The end should be a movie where I can find everything I love about SW and it's not so "real life/world like". I want the magic back.

@Maria Antonietta

I hope for a fairytale ending - and they lived happy ever after. I hope it's not too much to ask. :/

SheLitAFire wrote:

SkyStar wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

SkyStar wrote:So what will bring the end of all wars? A peace treaty? A bigger war? Love? ^_^

@SkyStar

The end should be a movie where I can find everything I love about SW and it's not so "real life/world like". I want the magic back.

@Maria Antonietta

I hope for a fairytale ending - and they lived happy ever after. I hope it's not too much to ask. :/

@SkyStar

Me too. And she's already had such a lonely life,  don't break her heart even more!

Maria Antonietta wrote:

cherrylipstick wrote:I don't know where to talk about it and I forgot to mention it before, but is there anyone who has understood what was the meaning of the underwater cave and the mirror? I mean, I got that Rey was trying to find answers about her and that in the end she was alone... but what was that? A magical dark cave that tried to call her?
I thought that that part, and also the tree and the jedi books were poorly explained.

@cherrylipstick

That's the descent into the underworld. I think there are some people here who can explain it better what it is about, like @MeadowofAshes or @FrolickingFizzgig

ReyofLightSide wrote:

I think we will have one. This movie sounds like an ESB-style, dark, go-all-in second movie in the trilogy with a sad, desperate ending.
At the end of ESB we had Leia and Luke staring into space and comforting each other. Luke was sans hand. He just found out frickin' Vader is his dad and Vader is still reaching out to him. Han is in carbonite.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Question to those who have seen the film: the blue lightsabre that young Ben was using was Anakin's lightsabre, wasn't it?

Darth Dingbat wrote:Question to those who have seen the film: the blue lightsabre that young Ben was using was Anakin's lightsabre, wasn't it?

Darth Dingbat wrote:Question to those who have seen the film: the blue lightsabre that young Ben was using was Anakin's lightsabre, wasn't it?

MeadowofAshes wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

cherrylipstick wrote:I don't know where to talk about it and I forgot to mention it before, but is there anyone who has understood what was the meaning of the underwater cave and the mirror? I mean, I got that Rey was trying to find answers about her and that in the end she was alone... but what was that? A magical dark cave that tried to call her?
I thought that that part, and also the tree and the jedi books were poorly explained.

@cherrylipstick

That's the descent into the underworld. I think there are some people here who can explain it better what it is about, like @MeadowofAshes or @FrolickingFizzgig

@Maria Antonietta

In a nutshell: The cave is a callback to the dark side cave in Empire. It's Jungian. Caves and water are feminine symbols; caves are also a place a character faces their shadow (your "dark side" - what you deny about yourself. It's not necessarily evil, but the more hidden and repressed it is, the more dangerous it becomes). Water is cleansing. This movie is very much about Rey needing to face her demons and cleanse herself of her past, and since it's a heroine's journey that's highly romantic and sexual in nature, the use of the feminine symbols is appropriate. She's coming into womanhood and leaving girlhood behind.

The tree is something we talked about in the Adam and Eve podcast. It's an allusion to the Tree of Knowledge. Rey and Ben are Adam and Eve, but it looks like they're making Kylo more the snake/Lucifer in this than Snoke like we discussed, IMHO. Once you have knowledge, you can't go back to the way things were before. For Ben and Rey that knowledge is the Force, which is being used as a metaphor for sex. Ben is very much an Eve figure to Rey's Adam whereas when he goes into Kylo mode he's the serpent - it's a pretty cool subversion of classic mythos IMO. But yeah, that's why the tree is there.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but my understanding from spoilers is the mirror is like the Mirror of Erised or the mirror in Neverending Story - it's showing her some truth about herself. That's pretty straight forward.