Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

[Lamiller1390]

@Night Huntress
I think you are spot on.

Kylo and Hux are intelligent in their own perspective ways and they are or were under Snoke for a reason. Snoke was no fool and neither are Kylo and Hux.

At the begging of TLJ Snoke was unhappy with both Hux and Kylo but both managed to turn his opinion back to the positive in their own ways. I am sure that Kylo was not anticipating killing Snoke in that moment. Rey showing up when she did probably forced his hand in a way and now he had to improvise. But in the end it needed to happen like that. The conflict between Hux and Kylo don't just end because Snoke is gone...

Kylo is seen as a petulant child who throws temper tantrums and cannot control his anger. Snoke knew that Kylo was conflicted and I am sure Hux knows it too. Kylos reaction on Crate says it all. He is unhinged and not in control of his own behavior, he's rash and probably not a great choice to be running the First Order.

[SkyStar]

I just imagine that Hux loves doing paperwork. Kyo probably hates it. Calligraphy is better.

[MrsWindu]

@Darth Dementor
Exactly, a great comparison. Loki and Thor...

Two brothers pitted against each other... Hux and Kylo have been pitted against each other.

Kylo is the Thor in this, at least how Thor was initially. Power hungry, impulsive, and with a temper.

Hux is more cunning, like Loki, biding his time, being smart. Being a strategist.

@Lamiller1390

I think J.J. said in the directors commentry for TFA Kylo was the spiritual and intellectual power whilst Hux was the warmonger and strategist so they are really at odds with one another -I’m paraphrasing here. JJ said the scene when Hux starts with ‘ I won’t have you questioning my methods’ was to show there was already conflict within the First Order. So in hindsight we know where this could lead. It’ll be interesting to see how JJ handles their dynamics in IX

[Lamiller1390]

@MrsWindu Indeed it will.

The conflict has been building and it is now at its peak. I think it would be fascinating to see disorder within the first order. To see that conflict play out in an interesting way.

[shii405]

@FrolickingFizzgig

It's like the struggle between Superman and Lex Luthor; Thor and Loki. Even though latters aren't on the same physical levels as their rivals they compensate with their cunning. As strong as Superman and Thor are their antagonists are just as smart and diabolical.

@Darth Dementor

That's what I was thinking too, but Lex Luthor has a trump card against Superman: Kryptonite. What can Hux use against Kylo to disable his Force-choke? Taking Rey as hostage and threaten Kylo that he will kill her, will do?

[Lamiller1390]

@FrolickingFizzgig

It's like the struggle between Superman and Lex Luthor; Thor and Loki. Even though latters aren't on the same physical levels as their rivals they compensate with their cunning. As strong as Superman and Thor are their antagonists are just as smart and diabolical.

@Darth Dementor

That's what I was thinking too, but Lex Luthor has a trump card against Superman: Kryptonite. What can Hux use against Kylo to disable his Force-choke? Taking Rey as hostage and threaten Kylo that he will kill her, will do?

@shii405

He could do that, but he could also find out that Kylo helped kill Snoke and team up with Rey... that would easily make Kylo a Traitor in the First Order... force user or not... if you don't have the respect backing of the troops... there is only so much force choking one can do... IMO

[Saracene]

After TLJ, I really hope that Hux will prove to be the ultimate underdog/dark horse of this trilogy No one respects him or takes him seriously, which is the perfect position for him to pounce and go in for a kill. I also bet that Kylo will treat him like sith at the start of Episode IX and throw him around Snoke-style. C'mon Hux I believe in you man.

[DeeBee]

After TLJ, I really hope that Hux will prove to be the ultimate underdog/dark horse of this trilogy No one respects him or takes him seriously, which is the perfect position for him to pounce and go in for a kill. I also bet that Kylo will treat him like sith at the start of Episode IX and throw him around Snoke-style. C'mon Hux I believe in you man.

@Saracene

I agree Saracene! He totally surprised Kylo and Snoke with his new hyperspace tracking tech.. he is a real forward thinker. He is not to be underestimated..

About the hidden dagger the visual dictionary mentions Hugs Hux has in his sleeve - we don't see it at all in TLJ. But I can totally see him surprising Kylo with this in IX - Hux really will have more than a few tricks up his sleeve

I found Hux in TLJ to be hilarious at times, but equally menacing. He carried it off beautifully.
His disgust at the single resistance fighter- screwing up his nose like it was the most disgusting thing ever was hilarious and totally within character. He is an utter snob. And his backhanded slap of Finn later was also brilliantly within character!

[snufkin]

This is probably a super obscure movie reference, but if you've ever seen Andrew Fleming's D Ick, the dynamic between Kylo and Hux makes me think of how Will Farrell and Bruce McCullough play Woodward and Bernstein. Two egotistical and ambitious men forced to work together as squabbling rivals. There's even a bit McCullough does as Bernstein where he's wearing a wig that's just at the edge of being teased out to looking ridiculous. He acts like a peacock where he does the same little shake to his head that makes the hair move, which is so Kylo

[Night Huntress]

He is an utter snob. And his backhanded slap of Finn later was also brilliantly within character!

@DeeBee

Haha, yeah- it was so typical Hux. He is so snobby and probably never gotten in a real "man-fight" in his life.

In comparison Kylo punched Finn in the face on SKB was like in a bar fight or something- And some complained Kylo isn't masculine? Pffft

[Lamiller1390]

He is an utter snob. And his backhanded slap of Finn later was also brilliantly within character!

@DeeBee

Haha, yeah- it was so typical Hux. He is so snobby and probably never gotten in a real "man-fight" in his life.

In comparison Kylo punched Finn in the face on SKB was like in a bar fight or something- And some complained Kylo isn't masculine? Pffft

@Night Huntress

Hahahaha, Hux and Kylo represent two very different versions of Masculinity and this post just sums it up. You have Hux, the devious and cunning person who knows how to get ahead in life. He's the guy who's a bit of weasel but he is Stoic in many ways and powerful in others and he enjoys flaunting that power to anyone who will look his way. He's a manipulator and entitled.

Then we have Kylo. He is presented to us as an unhinged man who cannot control his emotions (historically not masculine) but in all honesty, he represents masculinity in America to the T. He is a physical bad***, good with weapons, but emotionally broken and damaged. He hides behind a mask, but that can only do so much for so long. He is a child in many ways, but he's also been manipulated his whole life he is also entitled because of his legacy.

Kylo can kick your a** in a one on one fight.

Hux could beat you in a game of chess and rub it in your face the rest of your life.

[Night Huntress]

Kylo can kick your a** in a one on one fight.

Hux could beat you in a game of chess and rub it in your face the rest of your life.

@Lamiller1390

yes, but I would like to see them switch roles in IX at some point.

Kylo will probably drive Hux crazy with his irrational behavior- we saw glimpses of it already in TLJ when Kylo orders to fire on Luke, yelling MORE MORE and Huxs looses his cool and screaming ENOUGH!

It's hard to tell what will happen and who will be really in charge since the movies never made clear what rank /status Kylo had among the FO. He isn't commanding the military as Huxs but he had authority and as Snoke's apprentice even some kind of special status.

Maybe he will be seen as the rightful "heir" of Snoke? I don't think Snoke expected Kylo to turn on him so soon- but maybe he made preparations and commanded his fleet to turn on Kylo should he ever been killed.

[Teo oswald]

kylo has The Force on his side, Hux has an army.

Vader killed the emperor but the empire was already lost
Kylo killed Snoke but the first order was not lost

Vader had perhaps enemies within the empire but he controlled them with his power of terror
Kylo has enemies inside the first order, but he controls them with his power but some of them like Hux resist.

Vader is dead so the empire can not take revenge
Kylo is alive and is in the first order as the supreme leader

betrayal is in the air ...... Revenge is a dish that is served cold

[bashfulblueeyes3]

What happenes when Ben becomes balanced? Uh-oh.

[lauvamp]

I want Hux to reveal 100% his hate against Kylo, to reaffirm his absolute lack of morality / humanity, and becoming someone really dangerous, not a pathetic evil guy who deserves bullying.

[DeeBee]

He is an utter snob. And his backhanded slap of Finn later was also brilliantly within character!

@DeeBee

Haha, yeah- it was so typical Hux. He is so snobby and probably never gotten in a real "man-fight" in his life.

In comparison Kylo punched Finn in the face on SKB was like in a bar fight or something- And some complained Kylo isn't masculine? Pffft

@Night Huntress

Hahahaha, Hux and Kylo represent two very different versions of Masculinity and this post just sums it up. You have Hux, the devious and cunning person who knows how to get ahead in life. He's the guy who's a bit of weasel but he is Stoic in many ways and powerful in others and he enjoys flaunting that power to anyone who will look his way. He's a manipulator and entitled.

Then we have Kylo. He is presented to us as an unhinged man who cannot control his emotions (historically not masculine) but in all honesty, he represents masculinity in America to the T. He is a physical bad***, good with weapons, but emotionally broken and damaged. He hides behind a mask, but that can only do so much for so long. He is a child in many ways, but he's also been manipulated his whole life he is also entitled because of his legacy.

Kylo can kick your a** in a one on one fight.

Hux could beat you in a game of chess and rub it in your face the rest of your life.

@Lamiller1390

rofl Lamiller1390!
Yep, Kylo/Ben is a bit of a brawler!

[DeeBee]

Hi All, In the interests of procrastination and not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. ha. I've been exploring the TFA visual dictionary online.. I came across some interesting Hux tidbits that are new to me. Maybe not new to others - But.. in case others will also find this info interesting I'll share it here..
Quotes from TFA visual dictionary:
" A young, ruthless officer of the first order, General Hux has complete confidence in his troops, training methods, and weaponry. He has grown up celebrating his Imperial heritage - his father was a highly placed official in the Imperial Academy of old- and Hux feels it is a matter of destiny that he be given a chance to sit on the throne that rules the galaxy. Hux's experiences in warfare are entirely theoretical. Few would question the thoroughness of complexity of his simulations, but Kylo Ren in particular has little respect for Hux as a warrior"
- the bolded? wow!!! this is the same as Kylo! Both think it their destiny to rule! eek!
- and Hux's experience of warfare is entirely theoretical? my goodness no wonder he reacted as he did over a single fighter at the start of TLJ, bet he hadn't done a simulation on this simple situation!

Another quote about Hux:
"Hux was a child when the Empire surrendered to the New Republic with the signing of the Galactic Concordance. His father fled the Academy on Arkanis, and was one of the Imperials to make the exodus into the Unknown Regions, which the Empire had secretly been exploring. Hux grew up hearing legends of great Imperials, and how the Empire saved the galaxy from the violence of the Clone Wars. The young Hux firmly believed the galaxy needed to be saved from itself, as the New Republic was too weak to prevent the inevitable chaos."
- on the bold.. Interesting to get a picture of how Hux views history...
Do you think Kylo Ren believes the same thing?
Hux learned a history of the galaxy.. from a certain point of view.. he's basically indoctrinated..

Quote:
"A man of science and technology, Hux has little understanding of or patience for the mystical side of the First Order that Kylo Ren represents"
very interesting indeed! Science versus the Spiritual..

Oh and one final tidbit I thought was interesting - Hux's blaster has a trigger 'coded to Hux's fingerprint' - seems only Hux can pull the trigger.. Hux has another trick up his sleeve with his technological advancements!
I wonder if we'll see someone try and use his blaster against him and fail in IX.

[MrsWindu]

@DeeBee

Says very similar in the SW databank....I’m sure this doesn’t bode well for their working relationship

[lauvamp]

@MrsWindu @DeeBee

OH YES. I am really hoping he will explode and become more evil / ambitious than anyone!

[Lamiller1390]

@DeeBee @MrsWindu @lauvamp

That is so fascinating. I did not know that was Hux's ambition, but I cannot say I am surprised. The look on Hux's face at the end of TLJ spoke VOLUMES to how pissed he is that Kylo is in "charge". That would be a waste of build up if we don't see more of a full-on drag-out brawl between the two. One on one with force powers Kylo could still Kick Hux's tiny a** but I get the feeling Hux is much more patient and will have a plan. He was close to Snoke as well and managed to surprise Snoke with the hyperspace tracking... if he could surprise Snoke... why not manage a coup under the already very irrational Kylo... who is SO emtionaly comprimised (as Spock would say) that he didn't even realize Luke was using the lighsaber Rey and Him had just fought over and broken in Half... with all his Jedi training he didn't notice that, or comprehend the fact that Luke was an illusion... he was not touched by the canon fire, did not make marks in the salt... Kylo is OFF HIS ROCKER right now.

Hux has a huge mental and rational advantage at this point. He is calm and collected and calculating. Kylo is a shoot first think later... which in this instance will not serve him well.

[Lamiller1390]

@Night Huntress That is very true, I will be curious to see how JJ handles it all. It is very open to interpretation right now. Their dynamics could go a multitude of ways.

[SoloSideCousin]

So it's starting to look like Hux will be the main antagonist for Ep 9, considering Ben will likely be on the fence and will probably be redeemed in the end.

At first I honestly feel that he won't live up the expectations because in TLJ he was slightly made for comic relief. But that last look was very menacing and held a lot of promise.

If written well, Hux may become one of the best developed Star Wars villain. He isn't complex and conflicted like Ben. But he certainly did grow from TFA to TLJ, and hopefully for Ep9.

I haven't read any of the novels yet, but I can say that Hux is a rather smart and cunning ambitious person and will not stop until he gets what he wants. Which makes a very dangerous villain.

I don't know who to compare him with. All I can think of is Admiral Thrawn, yet I've never seen Rebels or read the old Legends comics. All I know is he is smart and cunning as well.

If Hux becomes the main villain then it is a nice change for Star Wars movies to finally have villains that aren't wrinkly old megalomaniacs and emotionally damaged lover boys.

We already had Palpy=Snoke, Vader=Kylo...maybe we could get some Thrawn=Hux too.

@Rei of Sunshine

Hux is no Admiral Thrawn.  Hux has been shown to be very incompetent in both TFA and TLJ.  OTOH, Admiral Thrawn is supremely competent (like the Sherlock Holmes/ Dr. House of the Imperial Navy), and he is also not evil like Hux.  IMO, he is just pragmatic.  He believes that there is a threat out there that is worse than the Empire and he embeds with the Empire so that he can have an ally with that threat.  Otherwise I don't think he'd have anything to do with the Emperor.

Hux, OTOH, may not have meltdowns like Kylo, but he is shown to be arrogant and dumb about military strategy.  Time and again he misinterprets what the enemy is doing and makes the wrong judgment call.  That's why they have his subordinates laughing at him and have him juxtaposed with hardnosed Captain Kanady who is shown as being very competent.  

That's also why the flight captain doesn't hesitate to follow Kylo's orders when Kylo throws Hux into the wall.  Not only is the flight captain not interested in getting thrown into a wall, he also doesn't even turn around when Hux is thrown and is not unsettled or offended in the slightest that Hux has been knocked out.  Imagine Poe or Finn had a force user knocked out Leia. They might have to follow the forceuser's orders in the end, but they would have a significant reaction.  That guy had no reaction because he doesn't care about Hux.

I'm not saying that Kylo is some Winston Churchill waiting to come into his own either, but IMO Hux has no loyalty from the rank and file either.  They might bring in some FO "true believers" to support Hux, but the regular soldiers think he is an idiot IMO.

[SkyStar]

Its really in character for Hux to want power. I like when Domhnall said that - huh you wonder how he is so young and how he get so high up the ranks, he probably slit some throats. I mean he had a tyrant like a father. Now the death of Brendol Hux was a much more traditional patricide with freeing himself from the tyrant like figure, even if he didn't do himself. Kylo is the golden boy, Hux probably hates him with all his guts. It probably took Hux took a lot to get there with all that throat slitting. And then Kylo just cames and just because of his bloodline he is special. I mean Hux probably planned to eliminate Kylo and then deal with Snoke and now he is stuck with Kylo on the throne. 

IMO, the movies show that even if Kylo's weakest point is his emotions and inability to not get distracted, Hux has the same problem. Poe could easily tool with him. He is the cartoon villain that gets killed because he spends too much time on talking about how he is going to kill the hero.

[Night Huntress]

Hux is no Admiral Thrawn.  Hux has been shown to be very incompetent in both TFA and TLJ.  OTOH, Admiral Thrawn is supremely competent (like the Sherlock Holmes/ Dr. House of the Imperial Navy), and he is also not evil like Hux.  IMO, he is just pragmatic.  He believes that there is a threat out there that is worse than the Empire and he embeds with the Empire so that he can have an ally with that threat.  Otherwise I don't think he'd have anything to do with the Emperor.

I agree! Thrawn was brilliant to the point I would say with someone like him as leader the Empire wouldn't be so bad at all... I was sad when he was killed- what a great character!

Hux, OTOH, may not have meltdowns like Kylo, but he is shown to be arrogant and dumb about military strategy.  Time and again he misinterprets what the enemy is doing and makes the wrong judgment call.  That's why they have his subordinates laughing at him and have him juxtaposed with hardnosed Captain Kanady who is shown as being very competent.  That's also why the flight captain doesn't hesitate to follow Kylo's orders when Kylo throws Hux into the wall.  Not only is the flight captain not interested in getting thrown into a wall, he also doesn't even turn around when Hux is thrown and is not unsettled or offended in the slightest that Hux has been knocked out.  Imagine Poe or Finn had a force user knocked out Leia.  They might have to follow the forceuser's orders in the end, but they would have a significant reaction.  That guy had no reaction because he doesn't care about Hux.

I'm not saying that Kylo is some Winston Churchill waiting to come into his own either, but IMO Hux has no loyalty from the rank and file either.  They might bring in some FO "true believers" to support Hux, but the regular soldiers think he is an idiot IMO.

@SoloSideCousin

Good thinking- I never thought about it in that way...but Hux don't seem to be that popular among his own people.

Kylo may have "anger-tantrums" but unlike Vader he never killed one of his people because they failed him...not that I know of anyway.  

[SoloSideCousin]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

Hm, I wouldn't be so sure about the bolded. They have a very different way of thinking. And yes, Hux may have a better knowledge about military strategies- and he is wily. But I think Kylo/Ben has another kind of intelligence- the question is, will he be able to keep calm and clearheaded enough to use his brain and won't let his rage get in the way.

When it counted - in the throne room-  Kylo was very calm and smart. I mean he even outsmarted Snoke in that moment. So I guess we'll see

@Night Huntress

I completely agree.  In no way is Hux smarter than Kylo.  Hux makes mistake after mistake, when he is calm.  When Kylo is calm, he is as sharp as a tack.  He has incredible insight into Rey.  He actually tries to make logical deductions when he is confronted with something he doesn't understand, such as the force bond.  He asks questions, "Why is the force connecting us?" and "This is something different."  When Hux runs into something he doesn't understand, like Poe coming to fight the big ships alone and Laura Dern going to lightspeed, he immediately falls back on arrogance, ("He's insane."), and only gets what is really happening when his nose is shoved into it.

And like you said, Kylo handled that Snoke situation brilliantly.  Also, though I don't know much about fighting, it looked like when Rey was in trouble that he made an effort to come up with some kind of plan to take out those three guys so he could get to her ... and though that was in a very stressful situation, he wasn't emotionally flailing.

IMO Kylo/Ben's out-of-control emotions are what do him in.  If he can clear his head a little bit, I think he would be a serious intelligent force to be reckoned with.

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