Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

[PalmettoBlue]

Hux has no conscience. Like Phasma, he is irredeemable because he feels no remorse for the things he's done. And he will go to any length to win. Clearly, Kylo needs to watch his back.
That said, he's no great military mind (see being of TLJ - his lack of understanding and his grandstanding cost the FO a dreadnaught.) He's successful because he's ruthless and has smart people working for him - and he will use that to gain the power he craves.

Kylo, according to the novel, operates outside of the traditional military structure of the FO, much like Vader did for the Empire. The troopers would look to him if Hux wasn't there (like on Tacodana.) Phasma also demonstrates this by deferring to him on Jakku regarding the Church of Force villagers.

I'm sure that there are specific people who report directly to Kylo (for instance, his shuttle commander) and hopefully the Knights of Ren. I have questions about them - if they were the students that left the temple with him - why did they choose him over Luke? Food for thought. And if they are indeed those students, it seems to me their first loyalty would be to him, the Master of the Knights of Ren, not Hux.

He's not a bad military commander...but he does let his emotions cloud his judgment. His orders at the beginning of the battle on Crait were brutal, but logical. It's only after Luke shows up that he loses his sith. But we all saw that coming. Even the order to blow up the Falcon was logical. That ship was a serious military problem for them in that moment - it needed to be taken care of. And Hux is the one who sent ALL the fighters after it, not Kylo. I'd say that military command isn't his first instinct, and certainly not his training. However, he could be a credible leader.

Hux will attempt to unseat Kylo, no question. I think we might see a civil war within the FO, and I hope that Finn gets to stoke the flames of discontent amongst his former comrades.

[SoloSideCousin]

Hux has no conscience. Like Phasma, he is irredeemable because he feels no remorse for the things he's done. And he will go to any length to win. Clearly, Kylo needs to watch his back.
That said, he's no great military mind (see being of TLJ - his lack of understanding and his grandstanding cost the FO a dreadnaught.) He's successful because he's ruthless and has smart people working for him - and he will use that to gain the power he craves.

Kylo, according to the novel, operates outside of the traditional military structure of the FO, much like Vader did for the Empire. The troopers would look to him if Hux wasn't there (like on Tacodana.) Phasma also demonstrates this by deferring to him on Jakku regarding the Church of Force villagers.

I'm sure that there are specific people who report directly to Kylo (for instance, his shuttle commander) and hopefully the Knights of Ren. I have questions about them - if they were the students that left the temple with him - why did they choose him over Luke? Food for thought. And if they are indeed those students, it seems to me their first loyalty would be to him, the Master of the Knights of Ren, not Hux.

He's not a bad military commander...but he does let his emotions cloud his judgment. His orders at the beginning of the battle on Crait were brutal, but logical. It's only after Luke shows up that he loses his sith. But we all saw that coming. Even the order to blow up the Falcon was logical. That ship was a serious military problem for them in that moment - it needed to be taken care of. And Hux is the one who sent ALL the fighters after it, not Kylo. I'd say that military command isn't his first instinct, and certainly not his training. However, he could be a credible leader.

Hux will attempt to unseat Kylo, no question. I think we might see a civil war within the FO, and I hope that Finn gets to stoke the flames of discontent amongst his former comrades.

@PalmettoBlue

I completely agree with every word of this. I don't know if he has the makings of being the best military leader of all time or anything, but when he is not emotionally triggered in the moment he does well. He's a hard SOB, but his military instincts are right. For example, even though he has just been eviscerated by Snoke, he pulls himself together enough to hit the ship hanger. That was absolutely the a smart, legitimate move at that point. He needed to take out their remaining ships, especially given how one ship took out a Dreadnaught.

[PalmettoBlue]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

Hm, I wouldn't be so sure about the bolded. They have a very different way of thinking. And yes, Hux may have a better knowledge about military strategies- and he is wily. But I think Kylo/Ben has another kind of intelligence- the question is, will he be able to keep calm and clearheaded enough to use his brain and won't let his rage get in the way.

When it counted - in the throne room-  Kylo was very calm and smart. I mean he even outsmarted Snoke in that moment. So I guess we'll see

@Night Huntress

I completely agree.  In no way is Hux smarter than Kylo.  Hux makes mistake after mistake, when he is calm.  When Kylo is calm, he is as sharp as a tack.  He has incredible insight into Rey.  He actually tries to make logical deductions when he is confronted with something he doesn't understand, such as the force bond.  He asks questions, "Why is the force connecting us?" and "This is something different."  When Hux runs into something he doesn't understand, like Poe coming to fight the big ships alone and Laura Dern going to lightspeed, he immediately falls back on arrogance, ("He's insane."), and only gets what is really happening when his nose is shoved into it.

And like you said, Kylo handled that Snoke situation brilliantly.  Also, though I don't know much about fighting, it looked like when Rey was in trouble that he made an effort to come up with some kind of plan to take out those three guys so he could get to her ... and though that was in a very stressful situation, he wasn't emotionally flailing.

IMO Kylo/Ben's out-of-control emotions are what do him in.  If he can clear his head a little bit, I think he would be a serious intelligent force to be reckoned with.

@SoloSideCousin

I can’t help but think that Rey’s presence alone helps calm him down.

Clearly...I think your analysis of Kylo (and Hux) is spot-on.

[SoloSideCousin]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

Hm, I wouldn't be so sure about the bolded. They have a very different way of thinking. And yes, Hux may have a better knowledge about military strategies- and he is wily. But I think Kylo/Ben has another kind of intelligence- the question is, will he be able to keep calm and clearheaded enough to use his brain and won't let his rage get in the way.

When it counted - in the throne room-  Kylo was very calm and smart. I mean he even outsmarted Snoke in that moment. So I guess we'll see

@Night Huntress

I completely agree.  In no way is Hux smarter than Kylo.  Hux makes mistake after mistake, when he is calm.  When Kylo is calm, he is as sharp as a tack.  He has incredible insight into Rey.  He actually tries to make logical deductions when he is confronted with something he doesn't understand, such as the force bond.  He asks questions, "Why is the force connecting us?" and "This is something different."  When Hux runs into something he doesn't understand, like Poe coming to fight the big ships alone and Laura Dern going to lightspeed, he immediately falls back on arrogance, ("He's insane."), and only gets what is really happening when his nose is shoved into it.

And like you said, Kylo handled that Snoke situation brilliantly.  Also, though I don't know much about fighting, it looked like when Rey was in trouble that he made an effort to come up with some kind of plan to take out those three guys so he could get to her ... and though that was in a very stressful situation, he wasn't emotionally flailing.

IMO Kylo/Ben's out-of-control emotions are what do him in.  If he can clear his head a little bit, I think he would be a serious intelligent force to be reckoned with.

@SoloSideCousin

I can’t help but think that Rey’s presence alone helps calm him down.

Clearly...I think your analysis of Kylo (and Hux) is spot-on.

@PalmettoBlue

He is definitely more calm in Rey's presence. The fact that he cares about her gives him something that soothes him.

But when she rejected him when she looked like she was accepting his offer, he was shattered and he was on the downward slide from there. In fact, her rejecting him is probably one of the top 5 worst things that ever happened to him, so he was going to be emotionally compromised.

But even at the very beginning of Crait he has some semblance of composure, but then sees the MF and drops down another level. And then when he sees Luke all he'll breaks loose.

I was actually thinking about this while driving. @zioren has brought up how he actually might have been terrified of Luke coming back to finish the job at a later date, and I think she is absolutely right.

And that made me think of something. Ben is asleep on the floor and the most powerful forceuser alive tries to kill him (in his mind). Ben would not be anywhere near Luke's level at that point. Imagine the toughest demigod dude in the galaxy being after you. He had to be completely terrorized ... and what happens when you're terrified and think you can't face the threat? You go for protection from someone who you think can protect you ... and teach you how to eventually protect himself. And who is the other big dog? Snoke.

And so he ends up with Snoke completely effed up and terrified and betrayed and Snoke tells him only strength in the dark will protect him. Add that to the fact that Snoke has probably told him all along that Luke was bad and Snoke has been with him since he was a child, in that state he will believe Snoke. Luke really did mess up terribly.

[DeeBee]

@MrsWindu @lauvamp
thanks for sharing the databank entry Mrs Windu! You find the coolest stuff! Love your avatar BTW

All this Hux discussion is super interesting. Okay, Snoke was scary and mysterious, but Hux as an enemy has a certain charm - maybe because he is a villain with potential tricks up his sleeve, but we don't need to be explained so much!

The 'complete confidence' in his troops is very very interesting - especially if there is a stormtrooper rebellion in IX!

@SoloSideCousin
I don't know Thrawn but he sounds really interesting! I thought Canaday was fantastic. Shame he had to die so quickly. His last little sneer at the resistance was perfection!
While Hux is indoctrinated with 'the republic is disordered and bad' he takes far too much pleasure in squashing the disgusting resistance to be merely seeing things from a certain point of view - he's a sociopath. With the blood of literally billions on his hands.
He was practically foaming at the mouth as he gave that speech in TFA right before they used the weapon. He is truly grotesque - even if he is the target of some jokes and at times looks the fool, his evil is still to me clear.

@Night Huntress
I agree, Kylo/Ben has the ability to be unbeatable - if he can keep his emotions in check. I said this somewhere recently but no idea where, lol, for me the key is that he is his most powerful when he has no 'conflict'- that vague SW concept they love to repeat over and over..
The ongoing conflict inside Kylo/Ben that we hear again and again is tearing him apart, is for me central to his character.
The ONLY time we've seen him without conflict was in defeating Snoke, and saving Rey

[DeeBee]

Just came across this on the star wars databank:


Here's a potential ally for Kylo/Ben!

[DeeBee]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

[Night Huntress]

Just came across this on the star wars databank:


Here's a potential ally for Kylo/Ben!

@DeeBee

I just remember a dialogue in TFA when SKB is about to implode:

- Lieutenant get back to your station!

- Just look! We won't survive!- Even Hux is gone!


Hux obviously saved his own skin...and he wasn't able to prevent a bunch of Resistance fighters to destroy a planet-sized Superweapon.
Not that's all his fault- but I don't think it earn him much of respect within the FO military ranks.  

So, I'm sure not everyone will prefer Hux over Kylo...

[SkyStar]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

[SoloSideCousin]

Just came across this on the star wars databank:


Here's a potential ally for Kylo/Ben!

@DeeBee

I doubt it will happen, but I would love it if a long-time navy guy like this, who might have worked under Thrawn and Eli Vanto or with Iden and under Vader would be a kind of mentor/father-figure to Kylo. They are humanizing some of the FO rank and file more, and a guy like this could be like, "You don't want to be Vader sir. He still haunts my dreams. Read up on Admiral Thrawn and take heed. Then see the doctor about some breathing exercises. You'd be brilliant and outshine Hux in a second if you calmed yourself." :-)

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

How interesting. Remember the Aftermath line, "The Empire needs children." Hux was one of those children.

Just came across this on the star wars databank:


Here's a potential ally for Kylo/Ben!

@DeeBee

I just remember a dialogue in TFA when SKB is about to implode:

- Lieutenant get back to your station!

- Just look! We won't survive!- Even Hux is gone!


Hux obviously saved his own skin...and he wasn't able to prevent a bunch of Resistance fighters to destroy a planet-sized Superweapon.
Not that's all his fault- but I don't think it earn him much of respect within the FO military ranks.  

So, I'm sure not everyone will prefer Hux over Kylo...

@Night Huntress

Right. I doubt that there is much love for Hux when he has never been in a real fight and has probably relied so heavily on people like Canady and Peavey, whereas Kylo has fought real battles. Kylo might be crazy, but he is willing to get down on the ground with his people and put himself at risk. Patton was half-crazy and could be a temperamental jacka** and a lot of his men loved him.  If it comes down to the "He gets in the mud like us" factor,  Kylo beats Hux hands down. So we'll see how JJ handles that. JJ did reference a number of American war movies in TFA, so we'll see where he goes.

[MrsWindu]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

@SkyStar

Slight tangent- In the Christmas hols I met up with a friend and her teenage sons. She is certainly GA but they had all thoroughly enjoyed TLJ and didn’t even realise there had been other strong reactions to it. Anyhow she’s Welsh and she recognised the actor playing Capt Canady ( Mark Lewis Jones )who is also from Wales and she re-enacted the Dreadnaught scene with a very broad Welsh accent not the rather clipped tones Canady used. It sounded ridiculous and very hilarious barking out orders in a Cardiff accent.

I found an interview he gave recently about his role

Mark - who appears prominently at the start of the new film as ruthless First Order official Captain Canady - confesses he was stunned by the levels of secrecy surrounding the hush-hush production.

"I know Star Wars is a big thing but I never dreamt it would be that full-on, because when I went for a costume fitting at Pinewood Studios they gave me my lines on an iPad and I had to learn them pretty much there and then.

"Afterwards the tablet was taken off me and that was the last I saw of it - plus we had to walk around the set in camouflage robes, just in case anyone with a long range lens was hanging about trying to take shots of us in our uniforms.

"I was also sworn to silence for about a year that I was even in the thing - not that I could've given the game away as I didn't know anything anyhow.

"Not being much of a sci-fi geek in the first place I had to ask someone what the First Order even was."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/film-news/star-wars-fans-watching-last-14046003

[SkyStar]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

@SkyStar

Slight tangent- In the Christmas hols I met up with a friend and her teenage sons. She is certainly GA but they had all thoroughly enjoyed TLJ and didn’t even realise there had been other strong reactions to it. Anyhow she’s Welsh and she recognised the actor playing Capt Canady ( Mark Lewis Jones )who is also from Wales and she re-enacted the Dreadnaught scene with a very broad Welsh accent not the rather clipped tones Canady used. It sounded ridiculous and very hilarious barking out orders in a Cardiff accent.

I found an interview he gave recently about his role

Mark - who appears prominently at the start of the new film as ruthless First Order official Captain Canady - confesses he was stunned by the levels of secrecy surrounding the hush-hush production.

"I know Star Wars is a big thing but I never dreamt it would be that full-on, because when I went for a costume fitting at Pinewood Studios they gave me my lines on an iPad and I had to learn them pretty much there and then.

"Afterwards the tablet was taken off me and that was the last I saw of it - plus we had to walk around the set in camouflage robes, just in case anyone with a long range lens was hanging about trying to take shots of us in our uniforms.

"I was also sworn to silence for about a year that I was even in the thing - not that I could've given the game away as I didn't know anything anyhow.

"Not being much of a sci-fi geek in the first place I had to ask someone what the First Order even was."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/film-news/star-wars-fans-watching-last-14046003

@MrsWindu

That is interesting!

Ha ha I just payed attention to the picture in databank and he looks anoyed even in it. Adore that man If Hux wouldn't be so full of himself we wouldn't have lost Canady.  

Bonus meme:

[MrsWindu]

@DeeBee

Thank you! My avatar is a sketch I doodled whilst waiting for my OS to reinstall (probably tmi) I’d colour artwork it but Mac needs new hard drive

[Kessel]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.

[SkyStar]

You know at this point I am actually more interested in First Order then in Resistance. At least Renperor will give us more FO action. I think Hux's grimaces made me laugh more then all of the jokes in the movie. xD

[Kessel]

You know at this point I am actually more interested in First Order then in Resistance. At least Renperor will give us more FO action. I think Hux's grimaces made me laugh more then all of the jokes in the movie. xD

@SkyStar

Me too. I find the FO's organization and inner workings far more interesting than the Resistance. Having Supreme Leader Ren and Hux there doesn't hurt either.

I find the Resistance/Rebels a little boring.

[SkyStar]

You know at this point I am actually more interested in First Order then in Resistance. At least Renperor will give us more FO action. I think Hux's grimaces made me laugh more then all of the jokes in the movie. xD

@SkyStar

Me too. I find the FO's organization and inner workings far more interesting than the Resistance. Having Supreme Leader Ren and Hux there doesn't hurt either.

I find the Resistance/Rebels a little boring.

@Kessel

Yeah, I think for me its because FO is so damn angsty. Resistance fails, but it's heroic everyone still is inspired and brave. And then FO just feel more like a real workplace. There are people who are overconfident, emotional, have bad decisions and others who are there to clear the mess and be annoyed about it. But in the end, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.

[snufkin]

I thought they were both dead at the end? The guy who's not Brendan Gleason gets taken out by Paige's sacrifice and then Vyvyan Basterd by Space Dern jumping to Light Speed. And agreed, the office politics of the First Order are so much more entertaining (and bitchy!) than the Beautiful Friendship Gang.

[PalmettoBlue]

I thought they were both dead at the end? The guy who's not Brendan Gleason gets taken out by Paige's sacrifice and then Vyvyan Basterd by Space Dern jumping to Light Speed. And agreed, the office politics of the First Order are so much more entertaining (and bitchy!) than the Beautiful Friendship Gang.

@snufkin

I had forgotten about Peavy being on the bridge. I think his fate could have gone either way since Hux survived. Canady definitely went down with the dreadnaught. But I think they are both important because they demonstrate how out of his depth Hux really is.

[vaderito]

Finally, a Kylux Thread!


FO has much better and more memorable small characters. Canady out-acted some bigger Resistance characters. Peavey is awesome too.

But where is Mitaka?

[Saracene]

I loved how Captain Canady met his fiery end with an annoyed smirk. He is my spirit animal

[snufkin]

Yeah where was Mitaka? Will he be back in IX as the perpetually nervous personal assistant to Supreme Leader Kylo Ren?

[PalmettoBlue]

You know, this is why I think a civil war in the First Order might be one of the most interesting ways to go in IX.

[ISeeAnIsland]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.

@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX. That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.

[SoloSideCousin]

One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..

@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher.

@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.

@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX. That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.

@ISeeAnIsland

I completely agree. The Resistance/Rebellion is pretty tedious at this point unless they continue to have Poe go down the destructive warpath ... and even then, the FO are just more fun to watch. Like @skystar said, it's like a real workplace ... on steroids of course, lol. But seriously, you have all different types in a workplace. The Rebellion has everyone being all supposedly "noble" and boring. The FO is a real cast of characters. I mean I could see Gary Cole's Bill Lundberg morphing into a less articulate version of Hux lol. He'd just have a coffee cup instead of a cat, lol.

Also, unless they do some massive time jump, there is no realistic way the Rebellion could get rearmed at its previous level. I think Rian destroyed that structure for a reason. They will either become a guerrilla war (terrorist??) group or they factionate themselves and some will go with Ben.

Also, when Leia says "We have all we need," not only is she speaking Ben's line, she is also holding Ben's half of the lightsaber. I still think in the end that Ben will turn out to be "the only hope."

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