Re: The Renperor thread

[FrolickingFizzgig]

Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.

@FrolickingFizzgig

And who exactly should he want to destroy? There is nothing/nobody left from his past. Han, Snoke, Luke & Leia will die most likely at the beginning of IX. Chasing and destroying the handful of resistance survivors as his only goal??? really?

@Night Huntress
That's why I said "going into" IX. He's on the last leg of his redemption arc when the emotions all spill forth. I just don't see him developing off-screen and I'm not fond of Kylo's attention being taken off Rey and the source of his suffering (i.e. the past he can't let go of). He's a character, not a person. He'll be used as a tool to tell whatever kind of conclusion JJ wants to tell.

I think he'll be angry and sad and alone as Renperor, FWIW. Not evil and without conflict. Kylo will never be evil.

There's honestly too much we don't know. I'm waiting on casting news.

[ZioRen]

Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.

@FrolickingFizzgig

And who exactly should he want to destroy? There is nothing/nobody left from his past. Han, Snoke, Luke & Leia will die most likely at the beginning of IX. Chasing and destroying the handful of resistance survivors as his only goal??? really?

@Night Huntress

Well, I mean, the Resistance is going to be building back up to challenge the First Order. I think that much is clear.

[Night Huntress]

It's possible he will be neither Ren or Benperor  - that he will leave the FO after his breakdown or that Hux will find out about his lie somehow (security holo or whatever) and he will be sentenced for high treason - and will have to run from the FO himself. Would serve him right

[Night Huntress]

Well, I mean, the Resistance is going to be building back up to challenge the First Order. I think that much is clear.

@ZioRen

Yes, but without a big time jump I can't see how that would work? And anyway it would be again the same boring story- the good guys with inferior equipment against the much bigger and stronger evil galactic dictatorship and even if it's totally nonsense they win against all odds...

Please JJ give us something new! Not a remake of RofJ

[Tex]

@Night Huntress - I think that you make a really great point. Who or what is left for him to direct his anger at other than himself? At the end of TLJ, when he last sees Rey he's basically had all the wind taken out of his sails. So going off what @FrolickingFizzgig" said, I don't see much anger left, but I do see him spiraling into a depression, especially with the death of Leia. They could take the character into a direction of complete despondency. He goes through the motions, but doesn't care or show any real interest in the FO or what's going on in the rest of the galaxy, which would make it easy for Hux to push him out. He's going to need to find a new goal to latch onto. What's great is that there are so many avenues they could explore with this character.

[thescavenger]

@Night Huntress - I think that you make a really great point. Who or what is left for him to direct his anger at other than himself? At the end of TLJ, when he last sees Rey he's basically had all the wind taken out of his sails. So going off what @FrolickingFizzgig" said, I don't see much anger left, but I do see him spiraling into a depression, especially with the death of Leia. They could take the character into a direction of complete despondency. He goes through the motions, but doesn't care or show any real interest in the FO or what's going on in the rest of the galaxy, which would make it easy for Hux to push him out. He's going to need to find a new goal to latch onto. What's great is that there are so many avenues they could explore with this character.

@Tex

I wouldn't be surprised if he became fixated on Rey.

[Tex]

@thescavenger

Right, that could be the route they end up taking. She is the only thing left that he cares about. Plus, being the emotional wreck that he is, he'll go about it all the wrong ways. You could easily have the opening crawl quickly reference how the FO has a warrant out for her capture or have focused all of their resources on locating her. For those working inside the FO it would seem like they are trying to bring Snoke's assassin to justice, but in actuality Kylo just wants to desperately find Rey for his own personal reasons. And our boy is all about personal vendettas taking priority over the FO. Hux called him out on this in TFA. So add this to Hux's list of reasons to overthrow SL Kylo.

Perhaps Kylo will feel that he can change Rey's mind? That if he pushes other incentives on her that she'll see his side of things. Kylo being, well Kylo wouldn't think through the fact that if she was captured they would want her immediate execution.

With Leia's death you'll have another situation where he won't get the closure he needs. I'd prefer if she died of natural causes because that would it make harder for Ben. He won't have a physical person or thing to focus his anger/sadness on. It will be something completely out of his control.

So Ben's turning point, his Darth Darcy moment, what could it be? Perhaps a selfless act of letting Rey go? A Beauty and the Beast gesture if you will. I let her go because I love her. Or perhaps by helping the Resistance in some capacity?

Again, this is just one possibility they could go with.

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@Tex

I hope, if she's kidnapped again, that he doesn't have anything to do with it. Maybe Hux has her captured and it pisses him off, and he helps her escape. Then Hux calls him a traitor and he can't stay with the FO...

I keep thinking that he's going to have to help the Resistance in some way to prove himself to Rey. All this talk of him having to be punished isn't necessary if he does something incredibly noble for "the cause."

[SoloSideCousin]

I actually don't want Ben to get too obsessed with Rey, at least not in a way where he is trying to track her down or capture her. He can be miserable and miss her all he wants in his room or what not, but I don't think it should go beyond that unless he is doing something good for her in secret.

Three of the best things about TLJ were that he held absolutely no grudge about her slicing his face, she came to him, not him to her, and at the end, even though she was nearby, he let her go, even though you could see that he desperately still cared about her. I think all of this is in line with how he respected her power in TFA.

I think for him to go chasing after her after all this would be a regression for him and make him seem stalkerish. I think him being miserable and thinking he's lost her forever and her coming to him because of something like Leia's death or to talk about the war, etc., would make him look much better.

[ISeeAnIsland]

There's a big wildcard that could factor into the Renporer/Benporer thing that I haven't really seen brought up yet.

Going into IX is going to be the first time (possibly in his life) that Ben Solo hasn't had Snoke in his head poisoning his thoughts.

It doesn't necessarily have to, but that does provide a real concrete reason why Benporer could be a possibility.

Or maybe even without Snoke, Ben/Kylo is a mess of rage, and we get Renporer anyway. But I think it's something worth factoring in.

[PalmettoBlue]

I'd like for them to come to each other in this last one.

[Night Huntress]

I actually don't want Ben to get too obsessed with Rey, at least not in a way where he is trying to track her down or capture her. He can be miserable and miss her all he wants in his room or what not, but I don't think it should go beyond that unless he is doing something good for her in secret.

Three of the best things about TLJ were that he held absolutely no grudge about her slicing his face, she came to him, not him to her, and at the end, even though she was nearby, he let her go, even though you could see that he desperately still cared about her. I think all of this is in line with how he respected her power in TFA.

I think for him to go chasing after her after all this would be a regression for him and make him seem stalkerish. I think him being miserable and thinking he's lost her forever and her coming to him because of something like Leia's death or to talk about the war, etc., would make him look much better.

@SoloSideCousin

Yes I agree! He seems to be very forgiving concerning Rey - and after his anger-tantrum I'm sure he will be back to adoring or even loving her.
No chasing or kidnapping her- he will want to be worthy of her...earning her trust again- I hope.

[ISeeAnIsland]

I actually don't want Ben to get too obsessed with Rey, at least not in a way where he is trying to track her down or capture her. He can be miserable and miss her all he wants in his room or what not, but I don't think it should go beyond that unless he is doing something good for her in secret.

Three of the best things about TLJ were that he held absolutely no grudge about her slicing his face, she came to him, not him to her, and at the end, even though she was nearby, he let her go, even though you could see that he desperately still cared about her. I think all of this is in line with how he respected her power in TFA.

I think for him to go chasing after her after all this would be a regression for him and make him seem stalkerish. I think him being miserable and thinking he's lost her forever and her coming to him because of something like Leia's death or to talk about the war, etc., would make him look much better.

@SoloSideCousin

Kylo stalking Rey would be a big step backwards on his redemption arc/getting the audience to cheer for Reylo, IMO. As you say, pining for her, maybe even giving her the cold shoulder because he's hurt? Sure. But Kylo himself putting a bounty on her or kidnapping her isn't going to win him any audience points in IX. JJ can't set up anything that he can't "undo" over the course of the rest of the movie.

That's also why if he's an angry, out-of-control, vengeful Renporer at the start of IX (as opposed to engaging in self-reflection and trying to do what he believes is best), his reign can't last very long. Rian made huge strides with getting the audience on Kylo's side by the end of TLJ. I can't see JJ undoing that work just to have to re-do it himself.

[Tex]

@Tex

I hope, if she's kidnapped again, that he doesn't have anything to do with it. Maybe Hux has her captured and it pisses him off, and he helps her escape. Then Hux calls him a traitor and he can't stay with the FO...

I keep thinking that he's going to have to help the Resistance in some way to prove himself to Rey. All this talk of him having to be punished isn't necessary if he does something incredibly noble for "the cause."

@Cowgirlsamurai

Strangely the more I think about it the more I don't want her to be captured again. It feels redundant. Maybe the resistance will capture Kylo instead? That could be interesting?

[ZioRen]

I actually don't want Ben to get too obsessed with Rey, at least not in a way where he is trying to track her down or capture her. He can be miserable and miss her all he wants in his room or what not, but I don't think it should go beyond that unless he is doing something good for her in secret.

Three of the best things about TLJ were that he held absolutely no grudge about her slicing his face, she came to him, not him to her, and at the end, even though she was nearby, he let her go, even though you could see that he desperately still cared about her. I think all of this is in line with how he respected her power in TFA.

I think for him to go chasing after her after all this would be a regression for him and make him seem stalkerish. I think him being miserable and thinking he's lost her forever and her coming to him because of something like Leia's death or to talk about the war, etc., would make him look much better.

@SoloSideCousin
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Kylo tried to avoid Rey and any ultimate confrontation with her despite and probably even because of him vowing to destroy her. If they want to show continued conflict, I can even see him about-facing an attack on the Resistance when he finds out Rey is among those in its path. That would be a great way to build up suspicion to fuel a Hux coup, if they go with that angle.

[FrolickingFizzgig]

I actually don't want Ben to get too obsessed with Rey, at least not in a way where he is trying to track her down or capture her. He can be miserable and miss her all he wants in his room or what not, but I don't think it should go beyond that unless he is doing something good for her in secret.

Three of the best things about TLJ were that he held absolutely no grudge about her slicing his face, she came to him, not him to her, and at the end, even though she was nearby, he let her go, even though you could see that he desperately still cared about her. I think all of this is in line with how he respected her power in TFA.

I think for him to go chasing after her after all this would be a regression for him and make him seem stalkerish. I think him being miserable and thinking he's lost her forever and her coming to him because of something like Leia's death or to talk about the war, etc., would make him look much better.

@SoloSideCousin
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Kylo tried to avoid Rey and any ultimate confrontation with her despite and probably even because of him vowing to destroy her. If they want to show continued conflict, I can even see him about-facing an attack on the Resistance when he finds out Rey is among those in its path. That would be a great way to build up suspicion to fuel a Hux coup, if they go with that angle.

@ZioRen
Yeah, I could see Kylo being very ashamed and unable to face her. Could be a neat way to start things.

There's no need for Kylo to be overly obsessed with Rey in that way. Either way the end goal is obviously selfless love.

[californiagirl]

I think both Renperor and Benperor will, in some capacity, come true. It wouldn't be good if he becomes an effective, benevolent leader because that would lessen the consequences for his actions in TLJ, maybe even justify them to an extent. He wouldn't really learn that what he did was very wrong. But he is also not as bloodthirsty as many people claim he is, and I think the worst of his tantrums are done now, since he's already realized what a horrible mistake he's made. Hux is his foil, the one who truly does want to rule and/or destroy everything without mercy or any inkling of conflict. Hux will at least attempt a coup, especially if Kylo does something like dismantle the stormtrooper program, though it is up in the air if he will succeed. All I know is that Ben won't be Supreme Leader for that long without trying to get out of the mess he's gotten himself into. He won't be an angry, tantrum-throwing manchild, or at least not for very long, but he's in over his head, he has no idea what he just signed up for, and a big part of his redemption should be that he owns up to the bad/stupid things he's done. If Rey went to him in TLJ, I hope he goes to her in IX, or at least they go to each other.

[DeeBee]

I can't make up my mind about Benperor vs. Renperor, but now that we've seen Darth Darcy, I really want Kylo to do something kind for Rey (like saving a friend or assisting them in a mission) behind her back.

@Cowgirlsamurai

This has been on my mind. Darth Darcy needs to secretly do something kind for Rey and a "surely you know it was all for you" moment. Right now I'm leaning towards Benperor, only because I think the audience will expect for Kylo to be a horrible leader. With everything we just got in TLJ why not surprise us and show that Kylo actually does have some leadership skills. He is Leia's son after all, but quickly have any progress he's made snuffed out by Hux.



This probably belongs over in the predictions thread, but I kind of want Hux to shoot Kylo/Ben in the back when he's finally reunited with Rey. I crave the drama of it all

I also would love if they had Rey being confronted about the proposal she received from Supreme Leader Kylo and their Force Skyping, similar to Elizabeth being confronted by Lady Catherine.

@Tex

Hi all!
I came across something new to me yesterday in a friend's visual dictionary.. so I'll share in case others haven't come across this either:
"Hux hides a monomolecular - blade dagger in his sleeve"
We didn't see it in TLJ.. and this sounds ominous!! We may get a literal Hux stabs Kylo/Ben in the back moment!!!
[but I'm not worried.. Rey can use the force to heal or something ]

@Tex I'd love a lady Catherine confrontation lol. Though who could be Kylo/Ben's lady Catherine now? Hmm maybe they could reverse this and have Kylo/Ben be confronted by Rey's lady Catherine (Finn! ).

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@Tex

I hope, if she's kidnapped again, that he doesn't have anything to do with it. Maybe Hux has her captured and it pisses him off, and he helps her escape. Then Hux calls him a traitor and he can't stay with the FO...

I keep thinking that he's going to have to help the Resistance in some way to prove himself to Rey. All this talk of him having to be punished isn't necessary if he does something incredibly noble for "the cause."

@Cowgirlsamurai

Strangely the more I think about it the more I don't want her to be captured again. It feels redundant. Maybe the resistance will capture Kylo instead? That could be interesting?

@Tex

No more kidnapping! That was so TFA

Dream scenario at the moment: He appears to be running the FO efficiently, hilariously keeping Hux in his place, while secretly dismantling the evil institution from the inside out and helping Rey and the Resistance. Then at the end, everyone is shocked to find out all he’s done and they welcome him with open arms, lol. No? Well maybe someone will write a fic.

[DeeBee]

The star wars data base has this to say about the new republic:
"The Rebel Alliance became the New Republic after its victory over the Empire at the Battle of Endor. Eager to win over the war-weary citizens of the galaxy, the New Republic revived the Senate, signed a peace treaty – the Galactic Concordance – with the Empire’s remnants, and drastically reduced its military capabilities. That policy aroused the ire of rebel hero Leia Organa, who warned that elements of the Empire were still seeking power. Sidelined from the political process, Organa founded the Resistance to oppose the Empire’s successor state, the mysterious First Order."

I didn't know there had been a peace treaty signed.. I'm not up on all the history!
Look how that peace treaty turned out - hmm.. I wonder if this reduces the likelihood of a peace treaty being signed with the FO? It at least makes it less likely...

[Kessel]

Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.

@FrolickingFizzgig

And who exactly should he want to destroy? There is nothing/nobody left from his past. Han, Snoke, Luke & Leia will die most likely at the beginning of IX. Chasing and destroying the handful of resistance survivors as his only goal??? really?

@Night Huntress

Well, I mean, the Resistance is going to be building back up to challenge the First Order. I think that much is clear.

@ZioRen

Yep, that's the "setup" for Episode IX.  

Let's hope the actual story is more interesting than that once it starts rolling.

Kylo will start Episode IX as Renperor, so I assume his initial motivation will be to destroy the rebellion. I'm still torn as to how long the time jump will be. I figure it needs to be long enough to allow the Resistance/Rebels to build up their ranks and resources, but it can't be too long or else we end up losing a lot of the characters' development.

[Tex]

@Cowgirlsamurai

Ha! Ok, ok no more kidnappings.  

I'm digging your dream scenario though. Like the whole time we think Kylo is just running the FO, Hux is suspicious, but can't prove anything. Then at the end, SURPRISE! I just need Ben saying something really cheesy like "I did it all for you. I did it for us" lol. That would be a fun fic to read.

@DeeBee - Yes, Yes! Give me Hux stabbing Ben in the back with his hidden knife in a crazy last ditch effort OR right when Rey and Ben are reunited and ready to meet each other half way Hux pops out and stabs Rey in front of Ben. Queue Ben force chocking Hux to death. Can you imagine how freaking devastating that would be. OMG I'm so twisted, I'm sorry!

As for a Lady Catherine, Finn or Poe or even both together confronting Rey would work. I'm not sure how they would find out though. Leaked intel? We don't even know if she's going to share with them what actually happened on The Supremacy. Do you think others would discover Rey and Ben Force skyping? Or is that to much of a retread of Luke finding them in the Hut?

[ISeeAnIsland]

If they’re going to retread something, retreading Luke walking in on them in the hut would be a fun thing to retread.

[Kylo Men]

Can I be Team Brenperor? Dissolute and depressed personally, but a politically shrewd and popular reformer as a leader?

[Atenais]

It's really hard to choose between Renperor and Benperor, mainly because I believe the time gap will be highly important for his developing. Right now, we don't really have a Resistance to fight the FO.

In the end of TLJ Kylo looked really dejected, but I can't forget he suffered years of manipulation from Snoke, I can't see him turning into a good guy that quick. And, even if I believe in his redemption arc, I can't see them making a boring movie about a guy quietly redeeming himself. We have to have battles, lightsaber duels, conflict, etc.

I'm with @FrolickingFizzgig @ZioRen @MindAndMagic, from what I saw till now, I can't see a Benperor happening (maybe I'm wrong). And I keep thinking what would be interesting enough for GA in the last movie. Now that we don't have Snoke, they will have to come up with some big threat in the next movie. Unfortunately, I can't see Kylo as a big threat anymore. Maybe Hux...? (They didn't plant the almost shot scene and the side look scene for nothing). But I still don't know.

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