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Re: The Renperor thread
by SkyStar Wed 27 Dec 2017, 4:28 pm
The fact that its all about Ben makes me optimistic for a happy ending. Otherwise - whats the point of all of this? I see people taking Kylo's words kill the past as a proof he is going to die, because he is connected to the Skywalkers by bloodline so they die and he as well. But Ben is a new character! His whole ark is connected with bloodline and legacy and how it affects you and how you move on! He is a transition - he will move on and we as well. I don't see reason for him to die - he is as powerful as Rey and there is no disbalance in the power and he has started his redemption. So yeah, being pretty positive about that.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by rey09 Wed 27 Dec 2017, 4:36 pm
ISeeAnIsland wrote:@ZioRenZioRen wrote:I really, REALLY don't want a years long time skip but I get the feeling I ought to make my peace with it now. Mostly because I have some doubts about them portraying Renperor in a particularly nuanced way and I'm doubting they're going to let us point all the fingers at Hux, the "real" bad guy.
I'm with you, for several reasons.
The first (and biggest) reason is that I don't want to see them completely throwing away the completely broken state that Kylo was in at the end of TLJ. IF we get a several years time jump, I think you almost have to go with him being a decent leader, otherwise what was the purpose of that heartbreaking ending of TLJ?
In that wonderful "redeem your villian" post that @MeadowofAshes shared, with Kylo's arc, we'd be looking at a "villain" who got everything he wanted and discovered that he was miserable at the start of IX. That doesn't sound like a multi-year time jump to me--at most, it's a few months.
@ISeeAnIsland I honestly think he's going to be the opposite. Can't tell what he's gonna do, but not prepared for any good news in the beginning of the 9. Thing is, he does feel awful at the end, but I also couldn't imagine him giving it all up at that moment to follow rey and the resistance. That moment struck me as a I screwed up but there's no going back now moment. I think this was him this whole movie- he's done so much, there is no point in even trying to be good (I am a monster, I don't hate him [Han]). He's completely hopeless and one route people who are totally alone take is just outright nihilism. I think he's just gonna keep going after the resistance but don't think he will have any direction. He's driven by need for revenge while Hux actually has some political doctrine he adheres to. I think one of the most heartbreaking scenes is when he yells out to Luke "Are you hear to save my soul?!" He knows he has nothing left in him. It's so sad =(
That being said, he will obviously be redeemed and there's many routes that can go. Ultimately what has to happen is he has to realize 1. holding on to anger and resentment is just going hasten his own end 2. come to the realization, for all the flaws of his family, they dearly loved him. I think rey serves as someone who can spell these words out to him through their bond. That way, he doesn't become good for her, rather she helps him get to that thinking.
rey09- Force Ghost
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Re: The Renperor thread
by Atenais Wed 27 Dec 2017, 8:33 pm
@rey09rey09 wrote:ISeeAnIsland wrote:@ZioRenZioRen wrote:I really, REALLY don't want a years long time skip but I get the feeling I ought to make my peace with it now. Mostly because I have some doubts about them portraying Renperor in a particularly nuanced way and I'm doubting they're going to let us point all the fingers at Hux, the "real" bad guy.
I'm with you, for several reasons.
The first (and biggest) reason is that I don't want to see them completely throwing away the completely broken state that Kylo was in at the end of TLJ. IF we get a several years time jump, I think you almost have to go with him being a decent leader, otherwise what was the purpose of that heartbreaking ending of TLJ?
In that wonderful "redeem your villian" post that @MeadowofAshes shared, with Kylo's arc, we'd be looking at a "villain" who got everything he wanted and discovered that he was miserable at the start of IX. That doesn't sound like a multi-year time jump to me--at most, it's a few months.
@ISeeAnIsland I honestly think he's going to be the opposite. Can't tell what he's gonna do, but not prepared for any good news in the beginning of the 9. Thing is, he does feel awful at the end, but I also couldn't imagine him giving it all up at that moment to follow rey and the resistance. That moment struck me as a I screwed up but there's no going back now moment. I think this was him this whole movie- he's done so much, there is no point in even trying to be good (I am a monster, I don't hate him [Han]). He's completely hopeless and one route people who are totally alone take is just outright nihilism. I think he's just gonna keep going after the resistance but don't think he will have any direction. He's driven by need for revenge while Hux actually has some political doctrine he adheres to. I think one of the most heartbreaking scenes is when he yells out to Luke "Are you hear to save my soul?!" He knows he has nothing left in him. It's so sad =(
That being said, he will obviously be redeemed and there's many routes that can go. Ultimately what has to happen is he has to realize 1. holding on to anger and resentment is just going hasten his own end 2. come to the realization, for all the flaws of his family, they dearly loved him. I think rey serves as someone who can spell these words out to him through their bond. That way, he doesn't become good for her, rather she helps him get to that thinking.
I agree, this moment is just heartbreaking, he says it as if he knew that nobody thinks there's anything good in him, as if he's accepting he is the failure everybody thinks he is.
Atenais- Force Ghost
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Re: The Renperor thread
by snufkin Wed 27 Dec 2017, 10:15 pm
One thing I'm curious about are the background both Finn and Rose have between them. Finn's from the whole child soldier program Hux's father started and that Hux is obviously running with Phasma's help. And Rose has her whole speech about what the FO did to her planet with strip mining and using them for target practice. So are they gonna bring that up b/c we got the senes from the first movie that Kylo's not really down with the child soldier part. And if he ever wants to get off the couch and back into Rey's good graces, she's about to make friends (and likely become very good friends) with somebody who has a pretty strong reason to hate the FO and not buy into the "The Empire did good things and made for a strong central government" argument.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Thu 28 Dec 2017, 12:05 am
It's funny, but I can't help but think Rey made a colossal mistake in rejecting Kylo's proposal - he would at that moment have done anything for her. The influence she would have had over him for good would have been monumental.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by Night Huntress Thu 28 Dec 2017, 12:40 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:It's funny, but I can't help but think Rey made a colossal mistake in rejecting Kylo's proposal - he would at that moment have done anything for her. The influence she would have had over him for good would have been monumental.
yes, but I understand why she rejected him. Rey isn't a experienced woman who knows how to manipulate / influence a man with her charms.
She is just at the beginning of her "awakening"- her journey from a girl to a grown-up woman. Still naive and overly idealistic with a simple understanding of what's wrong/right.
She had this idealized vision of him - whatever she saw during their hand-touching...and she wanted this version of a redeemed perfect Ben Solo. A person who most likely will never exist.
After he killed Snoke and they fought together the PG she thought he made a 180°C change (and let's be honest- that's what many of the GA must have assumed as well). I can understand her disappointment and hurt at his horrible speech and that she wanted to run instead of thinking "Hm, he is a emotional unstable mess, if I take his offer I can manipulate him from the inside..."
Night Huntress- Force Ghost
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Re: The Renperor thread
by reylo1992 Thu 28 Dec 2017, 3:35 pm
Time for a revised meta about Scarlet Heart Ryeo in regard to the rise of Supreme Leader Kylo Ren
A few weeks before TLJ came to the theaters, I had pointed out that that this TLJ connection chart....
...just looks like any regular K-drama chart, focusing on the Korean drama Scarlet Heart Ryeo
In regard to the outcome of TLJ, I think it is worth to make a revised analysis of the previous similarities pointed out between the ST and SHR before the movie came to the theaters. First let’s precise that any similarity between them is most probably unintentional since SHR was broadcasted in August 2016 as a Korean remake of the Chinese drama Bu Bi Jin Xin (2010) based on a Chinese novel. Although the stories are not the same, I definitely think after my viewing of TLJ that it is worth to analyze more deeply the similarities of the ST with this drama, especially in regard to the trajectory of Prince Wang So rising to the throne as future King Gwangjong:
I) The dual protagonist - The importance of the mysterious connection
II) The thin line between good & evil - The importance of context and (re)interpretation of history
III) The rise of King Gwangjong -The importance of nuance and ambiguity
A few weeks before TLJ came to the theaters, I had pointed out that that this TLJ connection chart....
...just looks like any regular K-drama chart, focusing on the Korean drama Scarlet Heart Ryeo
In regard to the outcome of TLJ, I think it is worth to make a revised analysis of the previous similarities pointed out between the ST and SHR before the movie came to the theaters. First let’s precise that any similarity between them is most probably unintentional since SHR was broadcasted in August 2016 as a Korean remake of the Chinese drama Bu Bi Jin Xin (2010) based on a Chinese novel. Although the stories are not the same, I definitely think after my viewing of TLJ that it is worth to analyze more deeply the similarities of the ST with this drama, especially in regard to the trajectory of Prince Wang So rising to the throne as future King Gwangjong:
I) The dual protagonist - The importance of the mysterious connection
- I) The dual protagonist - The importance of the mysterious connection :
1) A heroine who must find her place in a story that overwhelms her
For all criticism that TLJ got for keeping away the most of the questions raised by TFA, at least it answered a question that IMO had taken too much place within the fandom and in the media in regard to its actual importance to the story:
Maz: Who are you?
Rey: I am no one
Rey: I need someone to show me my place in all of this
Kylo Ren: You have no place in this story. You come from nothing, you're nothing, but not to me
This revelation is important because Kylo Ren is actually only revealing explicitly what TFA had already revealed subtly about Rey's background all along. As a simple scavenger, daughter of junk dealers, she finds herself in the middle of a family drama within the context of a galactic war that happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. She has no place in this story since the franchise always focused on the impact of the unending tragedy of THE Star Wars family on the galaxy:
The same applies scheme to Hae Soo. She is a 21st century girl with no background who also finds herself in the middle of a family drama within the context of a war over the throne succession that happened a long time ago in the Goryeo Kingdom. Hae Soo has indeed no place in that story that focuses on the palace intrigues of the royal family and how it impacts the fate of the Goryeo kingdom.
In both cases, we have two heroines whose background is important in the sense that they must learn to let go of the past in order to move forward. Rey clings to the past because of her birth family whereas Hae Soo clings to the past because of a heartbreak...only to meet their destinies instead:
- In SHR, Hae Soo tries to comes back to the future by following a person that she recognizes as the man she met just before she was sent to the Goryeo era...
...and look who is coming instead!
In the next episode, Hae Soo is still clinging to the hope to come back to the future when she enters a cave, hoping that it will allow her to escape the Goryeo era...
...and look where it brings her instead!
- In the ST, Rey goes through the same process whether the similarities are intentional or not,. She clings to the past, only to be brought to her destiny. In TFA, she runs away from Maz castle only to collide with Kylo Ren a few minutes later. In TLJ, she goes to the dark cave to confront her past but the mirror shows her two shapes merging into one single shape coming to her, shape that looks strikingly similar to Kylo Ren. The Force tells her that the belonging/family she seeks is not in her past but in her future.
2) A dark Prince burdened by his family legacy
The interesting thing about both the ST and SHR is that these stories don't focus on the character journey of an heroine but of on the character journey of a dual protagonist. Kylo Ren may have had barely 20 minutes of screen time in TFA, it doesn't mean that he was supposed to be less important than other characters (Rey, Finn, Poe, etc...). Whether we like it or not, the ST is in the continuity of the franchise in regard to the importance of the Skywalker family. As the only heir of the Skywalkers, Kylo Ren is the centerpiece of the family drama, driving the plot of the ST. Contrary to Rey, his background is extremely important in regard to his trajectory and his role to the story.
Lor San Tekka: Oh! The General? To me, she is royalty!
Kylo Ren may not be technically called a Prince, he definitely has a royal background in opposition with Rey's. No matter the amount of his screen time in TFA, Kylo Ren was always meant to be a - if not the - centerpiece of the ST so this is funny to think that Rey was given so much attention in regard to her potential background although Kylo Ren is actually the one who bears all alone a family legacy on his shoulders
In SHR, 4th Prince Wang So is one of the many sons of King Taejo Wang Geon, founder of the Goryeo kingdom and thus one of the many heirs to the throne. Aside from this big difference, he and Kylo Reb both share a similar background. During the first episodes, Wang So is introduced to the audience as a cruel dark warlord committing a mass murder, killing an old wise figure and burning a temple down:
Lor San Tekka: You cannot deny the truth that is your family
He is the estranged son of the royal family because he was sent away by his mother Queen Yoo when he was a child in order to be adopted by a royal concubine. His perception of that decision is key to the story because he doesn't consider that he was sent there as an adopted son but rather as an hostage. It seems that Kylo Ren has the same kind of perception about his parent's decision to send him away while talking about Rey's parents:
Rey: I don't understand...
Kylo Ren: No? Your parents threw you like garbage!
Not only did the royal family sent Wang So away - a decision he never understood- but they didn't seem to be aware that he was in danger there although it is heavily implied that his adoptive family tried to get rid of him:
When coming back to the palace as a grown adult, Wang So is well-known in the entire kingdom as the wolf dog with so dreadful rumors about him that the heroine hears about before getting to know him.
Both TLJ and SHR make it clear that Wang So and Kylo Ren have complicated relationships with their families, not finding in them the belonging they desperately crave for:
Wang So to Queen Yoo: I have always been curious...Why doesn't Mother feel pity for me? If you were my mother, you would care if I were injured. So why doesn't Mother even look back at me. I waited so desperately for it
Adam Driver: I think that character [Kylo Ren] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. You know, the anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that lasts a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I felt that we made that personal.[/b]
I wouldn't dare to compare Queen Yoo with Leia because she is the main antagonist of the drama and definitely what one can describe as a bad mother. Thus, I would say that she is closer to Snoke in the sense that the desperate need to be recognized by her leads Wang So to the most extreme actions. For her, he kills a whole temple of monks only to get her recognition and it is never enough no matter how far he goes:
Queen Yoo: You're like an animal!
Snoke: You're only a child in a mask
Wang So suffers not only of abandonment issues but also of trust issues. As a child, he was used as a bait by his mother in the middle of a fight between his parents, leaving him accidentally with a permanent scar on his face. He was also used by the royal family as a bait to appease the Shinju clan, the reason why the King didn't oppose the decision to send him away to his adoptive family. Back to the palace, he is also used as a bait by his older brother Crown Prince Moo in order to escape an assassination attempt. This moment in particular is very telling: Wang So has just survived the assassination attempt his own mother plotted against Crown Prince Moo but the King's reaction is to search desperately for the Crown Prince, ignoring at first the other son he could have lost:
So it is pretty clear that no matter how the relationship is meant to evolve, neither Wang So nor Kylo Ren can find in their birth family the belonging they desperately crave for, resulting in regular temper tantrums...but fate make cross the road of girls who appear to have the same trust issues and crave for belonging:
Hae Soo: That jerk [her ex-boyfriend] who left me with a pile of debt. That wench [her best friend] who fooled me and ran off with him. I should have never trusted anyone. I thought if I wouldn't change, people I trusted and liked wouldn't change either
Once again, both Hae Soo and Rey's backstory is not revealed in detail, only what serves the story. In SHR, the story gave Wang So a permanent scar that represents as much his internal wounds as his external ones and made Hae Soo...a beautician in her former life. In the ST, the story made Kylo Ren imply that his family threw him like garbage (very much like Luke throws the Skywalker lightsaber) and made Rey...a garbage picker.
And what drives these two pairs together is their loneliness:
Rey: I've never felt so alone...
Kylo Ren: You're not alone...
Rey: Neither are you...
Wang So: You're not alone?
Hae Soo: You are here, your Highness. So I am not alone!
Wang So: That seats makes you scared and lonely...
Hae Soo: I am right here...and I won't leave you...
3) Two trains colliding...
Before TLJ came out, Rian Johnson insisted on the importance of the red color, regularly posting red strings on his twitter account. We associated it with the red string of fate made by the old lunar matchmaker to connect soulmates regardless of time, place or circumstances. The full title of the drama is none other than Moonlovers - Scarlet Heart Ryeo...and opens with a solar eclipse connecting Wang So and Hae Soo regardless of their different living time periods:
In this regard, I don't think that TFA opening shot (with the imagery Kylo's lightsaber aligning with Rey's planet) is a coincidence:
J.J. Abrams describes Kylo and Rey's meeting with two trains colliding. Well...
Bridal-carried by your twin flame?
Threatened by your twin flame?
Snubbed by your (royal) twin flame?
Hae Soo: Hey wait! Do I look like a parcel or a bag to you? You should apologize!
Wang So: What is your position that you would act that way to a prince?
Hae Soo: I told you to apologize. Why are you asking my rank like I am in the military? Are you going to ignore me if I am a servant and apologize if I am a Princess?
Power struggle with your twin flame?
Discovering accidentally your twin flame's deepest secret?
Bonus: shirtless twin flame
Getting physically closed with your twin flame?
Getting unexpected help from your twin flame?
Side by side with your twin flame?
Intimate hand touch with your twin flame?
Wearing your twin flame's belonging?
II) The thin line between good & evil - The importance of context and (re)interpretation of history
- II) The thin line between good & evil - The importance of context and (re)interpretation of history:
Aside from the similarities between both pairs, there are also interesting parallels to point out regarding key elements of the plot. SHR in particular shows how it is important to contextualize the events and actions.
1) The importance of context: good vs evil or right vs. wrong?
One of the interesting aspect of TLJ is that even if there is still a strong opposition between the dark side and the light side, I got the sense that the line between good and evil is thinner than in the previous Star Wars movies. Like Hae Soo, Rey is caught in the middle of a war that overwhelms them and in which they enter with preconceived ideas:
From TFA novelization:
Kylo Ren: You would kill me, knowing nothing about me!
Rey: Why wouldn't I kill you? I know about the First Order
From TLJ:
Rey: I know everything I need to know about you
Kylo Ren: You do? Oh! You do...
The heroine, the characters and the audience are supposed to understand that the line between good and evil is thinner than they think.When he was asked about his movie influences for TLJ, Rian Johnson revealed that he took inspiration from Three Outlaw Samurai. SHR also illustrates very well how these changes of alliances and twists makes the line between good and evil difficult to determine, although that shot in particular foreshadows some clear opposition between two sides:
Still, the drama shows that every action must be analyzed in its general context: the palace is described all along as a scary place in which everybody must constantly watch his back in order to survive. This is something that the heroine understands quickly and that enables her to relate to Wang So at his lowest point:
Wang So: I told you I killed people!
Hae Soo: Then, tell me why you did it.... Did you...do it for fun?
Wang So (startled)!: Go...Go!
Hae Soo: This is this kind of place, isn't it? You have to wield a sword at a very young age. You have to kill others if you want to live. What can you do? It isn't a crime to want to live! You probably won't be forgiven. Still I understand you How you're feeling right now. It must be so miserable. I think I can relate
Within this general context, there is this idea that each character is led to take questionable decisions involving shifts of alliances:
Still, each character is given at some point relatable reason to behave the way they do, some characters being of course more relatable than others. The interesting thing is that theirs actions aren't really presented to the audience as good vs. evil but rather as right vs. wrong. Thus, each character think their decision as right no matter if they are categorized as good or evil:
Wang Wook: I have done nothing wrong so why is it that I am always so alone?
Even a character like Princess Yeon Hwa who appears as an elitist, manipulative and ambitious character is given right reasons for her behavior. She never accepted that her mother was kicked out from the palace because of a false accusation and thus is driven by the fear that her family would be definitely kicked out if she doesn't get to the throne.
TLJ shows indeed that the line between good and evil is thin. The most illustrative example is when DJ proves Finn that war is a business that serves equally both opposite sides, with people equally financing both sides. Plus, the characters are driven by personal and higher motivations but are also torn apart between personal feelings and war duties. Thus, they all take more or less questionable decisions, thinking that they are doing the right thing, with both personal and higher motivations mixed
Poe : Why are you doing this?
Finn: Because this is the right thing to do!
Poe: You need a pilot!
Finn: I need a pilot!
==> Luke intended to kill his nephew in his sleep in order to prevent a future disaster but was also driven by his own selfish motivation
==> Poe leads a mutiny for the greater good of the Resistance but is also motivated by his own personal glory
==> Both Kylo Ren and Rey try to pull the other to his/her side both for personal and higher reasons driving their decisions
All these actions take place within the context of this galactic war in which the relationship between Kylo Ren and Rey in particular show that balance between the Dark Side and the Light Side rather than the destruction of the opposite side is the key to achieve permanent peace.
2) The importance of the (re)interpretation of events
Aside from the fact that the context matters, both SHR and TLJ show how an incomplete knowledge can lead to a wrong perception of an event and thus to wrong decisions. From the very beginning of the drama, rumors and speculations play an important part in shaping the heroine's perception on 4th Prince Wang So, especially the dialogue with her friend, Chae Ryung:
A villager: Don't you know the 4th Prince? You're lucky to be alive!
Chae Ryung: You must avoid the 4th Prince as soon as you see him. He is a powerful man with to families. He is famous for being scary and cruel. They say he kills people easily too, especially those who have seen his scar.
This is also the case in the ST when Rey hears about the Jedi Killer for the first time and then gets a vision about him:
In SHR, serious things begin when Hae Soo is plagued with a dreadful vision about future events that will shake the royal family within the context of the throne succession. Since she is a 21st century girl, she tries to interpret her vision with her own basic historical knowledge:
Hae Soo: Where am I? Right, I am dead...but I am not. Goryeo Kingdom...Taejo Wang Geon...
Hae Soo: Gwangjong? Something is bothering me about Gwangjong. I must have forgotten something...
Hae Soo: 4th King Gwangjong. This is it! Gwangjong was the 4th King. He was a king who killed his brothers and his long-time subjects. Who is it? Which one of the Prince? Could it be?
Later, the truth is finally revealed to the heroine:
In the ST, visions also play an important role in revealing an incomplete truth. Rey is indeed plagued by a vision involving mostly Kylo Ren about events eventually happened:
- The massacre in the temple
==> Kylo Ren: Did Skywalker tell you what happened that night?
- The disappearance of the Sun as bad omen
==> Before Han's death
- The final confrontation in the forest
==>After Han's death
SHR is the perfect example that visions represent an uncomplete truth that eventually does happen no matter what, but the circumstances in which they happen are actually what really matter. In the end, Wang So did kill his brothers and Kylo did commit these crimes but the circumstances in which that happened definitely play a big part in their actions :
3) Yoda : "Careful you must be in sensing the future"
Even more important, SHR is a very good example that one must be careful with the interpretation of visions because any wrong interpretation can lead to damaging consequences. That kind of warning was already stated by Yoda when Anakin confessed to him about the dreadful vision he had. We know that Anakin's interpretation did lead to wrong decisions that eventually led to the realization of his vision in the end. This applies very well to both TLJ and SHR in which both heroine not only fail in perceiving their vision correctly but take questionable decisions impacting the course of history.
From the moments on Hae Soo is plagued with her visions, her obsession becomes to avoid history to repeat itself. She is afraid that the visions may come true and that Wang So may be remembered in history as a bloody monarch. SHR is interesting in this regard because the drama
- Questions how history records and judges past events
- Questions the idea of fate, whether things were always meant to be or not
- Questions whether is it right or not to change the course of history
Don't these questions apply within the context of the STtoo ? We indeed have Kylo Ren as only heir of the Skywalkers who bears the bloody legacy of his family on his shoulders because Bloodline shows that his grandfather is the most hated man in the galaxy for his past actions. We also have a heir who is not Vader yet according to Rian Johnson but who could potentially suffer the same tragic fate of his grandfather as if he was always meant to follow this path. And we still have a possibility to reverse his fate but to what costs?
In SHR, the irony is that Hae Soo unwillingly writes the story she wants to avoid by trying to prevent the events from happening. First, she wonder about her potential responsibility, realizing that she may have opened the road to the throne for Wang So by covering his scar and thus allowing him to gain the suport of his people while leading the rain ritual.
As others begin to see him truly as a savior and not as a monster, Hae Soo begins to doubt because of her vision: she is the only one to see him him both for who he is and who he could become. Then, she wonders how to prevent him from becoming that bloody monarch, persuaded that she can change the course of history.
However, her fear of his trajectory makes her doubt of him, leading him to a feeling of rejection he had with everybody except her:
This doesn't prevent their relationship to evolve into a slow-burn romance finally coming true despite all obstacles. Still, Hae Soo is reminded on the sword of Damocles when Wang So is left no other choice than becoming the dog of the new King - 3rd Prince Wang Yo - and track their younger brother to kill him. Ultimately, the vision does happen in circumstances that make Hae Soo understand she was wrong but the decision she made to avoid it leaves Wang So with a sense of betrayal for the first time when it comes to her. He became the dog of the King to protect her and he feels betrayed by her lack of trust in him.
Lee Joon-Gi: She is the only person that saw him for what he truly was. He’s also most honest when he’s around her. She’s somebody that he wants to protect, and he feels he is being protected by her as well. She’s the first person that has treated him kindly and warmly so his feelings for her are becoming more and more pronounced."
One could say that something pretty similar happen in TLJ. It doesn't seem like Rey paid much attention to her vision in TFA but she definitely did pay attention to her vision in TLJ. Like I wrote in a previous post, the irony of the situation is that she reproaches Luke to have created Kylo Ren but might have unwillingly created Supreme Leader Kylo Ren. She was definitely not careful enough in sensing the future, leading to an impulsive decision with big consequences for Kylo himself. Throwing herself in the lion's den was definitely not her best idea because she didn't think of the potential consequences. In the end, her vision did happen: Kylo Ren didn't bow in front of Snoke and did turn against him to save her. However, her vision was incomplete and her interpretation wrong. It led her to believe that "forcing" Kylo to save her would make him betray his convictions in the blink of an eye and change sides. Worse: making him believe that she would take his hand...to call his legacy lightsaber from his hand by surprise, most probably created a sense of betrayal for the first time when it comes to her. It is probably not a coincidence that the Skywalker lightsaber didn't fly in her hand this time with Kylo clearly struggling not to let her get it. The fact that the lightsaber ended up broken in half is pretty telling about their relationship at this moment. He killed his master in order to save and feels betrayed that she would attack him.
What SHR shows is that from a certain point of view Hae Soo did create the conditions that made Wang So turning into King Gwangjong and Rey did create the conditions that made Kylo Ren turning into Supreme Leader Kylo Ren. The main difference is that Wang So planed his ascension to the throne whereas Kylo Ren took the seat in unexpected circumstances although he might have thought about it for a while:
III) The rise of King Gwangjong -The importance of nuance and ambiguity
- III)The rise of King Gwangjong - The importance of nuance and ambiguity:
In previous posts, I had always focused on Wang So and Hae Soo's dynamic before the rise to the throne, voluntarily keeping aside the last act of their love story story because I didn't think it was relevant for Kylo and Rey's dynamic in the context of TFA. Before TLJ, I tended to consider Kylo Ren as a prince(ss) in distress that had to be saved from his manipulative abuser, thinking wrongly that Snoke would be the only obstacle to overcome. In this regard, Rian Johnson really gave me a lesson,making Kylo Ren an even more complex character than I thought. Thus, I realize now that he shares much more similarities with Wang So than I ever imagined and IMO he could possibly share more similarities with King Gwangjong than Prince Wang So in the end.
1) A controversial rise to the throne
First, both Kylo Ren and Wang So takes possession of the highest set in controversial circumstances. In TLJ, Kylo Ren rises to the throne more or less by accident, killing Supreme Leader Snoke in order to save Rey. He might have had the intention to overthrow Snoke for a while and use the opportunity that Rey was by his side. However, the circumstances in which he rose to the throne were definitely not planned since Rey came on her own will. Thus, he had no other choice than lying to Hux about the circumstances of Snoke's death. It will be clear that his ascension will raise controversy among the FO because of the shady circumstances plus the fiasco that followed on Crait. So I think it is pretty clear that Supreme Leader Kylo Ren won't have any rest, having to face opposition within the FO.
In SHR, Wang So also also rises to the throne in shady circumstances although the main difference with Kylo Ren is that he planned his ascension to the throne. Once again, it is important to keep the general context in mind. His older brother, 3dr Prince Wang Yo, rose to the throne with the help of their mother, Queen Yoo, by overthrowing Crown Prince Moo who by the way was turning crazy because he didn't know he was poisoned in his bath with mercury for twoyears. Hae Soo was used by the new king as a bait to force Wang So to become his dog and hunt any person considered as a traitor, among them their younger brother, 10th Prince Wang Eun. This left Wang So with no other choice than terminating him, this terrible action representing a catalyst for himwho - having been misused his whole life by his loved ones - took the decision to become the master of his destiny:
Wang So: Ji Mong! It seems that I must become a dog that kills. A dog that bites his owner and takes over it's owner home. I have to become king. If I have to be forced to kill for a seat, I will become the owner of that seat and put a stop to it
Meanwhile, the King became increasingly dangerous because of his madness, using Hae Soo has a bait to keep control over Wang So:
An interesting parallel between both stories is that both Wang So and Kylo Ren were confronted with hard choices: they had to kill a close family member to prove their loyalty but couldn't bring themselves to let their master kill their love interest.
It is also interesting to note that neither Wang So nor Kylo Ren seemed particularly interested in politics. In Kylo Ren's case, his mother Leia expressed doubt in Bloodline that Ben would be interested in having the royal title of Prince of Alderaan. In Wang So's case, he repeatedly stated that he had no intention to become king one. However, his perspective progressively changes as his political skills rise, leading to this important conversation with Hae Soo after their reconciliation scene, representing a turning point in his destiny and their relationship:
Hae Soo: Do you want the throne?
Wang So (nodes): I want it
Hae Soo: The reason you left me...was it for the throne?
Wang So: The king used you to get to me. He will use me to continue bothering you.
Hae Soo: What if I asked you to give it up?
Wang So: I will persuade you until you say it is all right to do it.
Hae Soo: You said you didn't need to be king as long as we were together. You're not saying it anymore
Wang So: We promised not to lie to each other. I started this to end this vicious cycle of brother killing brother. Then, working on the construction of the new capital, I've learned that a new king means a new world. If being king means I'll no longer be a dog on a leash and be able to end of the tragedies, I definitely want to become this king What is it? You don't want me to become king?
Hae Soo: I do not like it...However I dislike being apart from you even more.
Wang So: Thank you
Hae Soo: You will become king. I know it. Still you must never ever harm your brothers[/i]
This dialogue is so interesting in regard to TLJ because Wang So and Hae basically have the same kind of conversation as Kylo Ren and Rey in the throne room, except that Wang So hasn't overthrown the king yet. It also offers an interesting parallel in the sense that Wang So makes the same kind of offer as Kylo Ren, with the difference that Hae Soo finally accepts it contrary to Rey. This is an extremely important difference because this is where IMO the paths of both love stories are meant to separate and have different outcomes although mirroring each other.The fact that Hae Soo accepted the offer did have an impact on the the dramatic outcome of their relationship after Wang So got to the throne. Although her decision rose controversy among the fandom, it is understandable because she is aware that it is his destiny to become king no matter what:
- It is repeatedly highlighted during the drama that Wang So was born with the "star of a King", something that the astronaut Ji Mong told him even when he was a child
- It is also revealed that King Taejo was aware of that his favorite son, Crown Prince Moo, wouldn't live long and actually did everything behind the back of Queen Yoo to give Wang So all the cards to become a strong leader
- Although Wang So wasn't chosen by Heavens to lead the rain ritual, he is definitely the one who brought the rain allowing to save his people from the drought
Thus, Wang So knows deep inside him that he has a destiny to fulfill. Still, his rise to the throne is controversial because he attacks the palace to overthrow the King who lies ill in his room. Meanwhile, Hae Soo is by his side since she works in the palace as a court lady and here comes an interesting dialogue just before the King dies from a heart attack, feeling hurt that his mother Queen Yoo asked him to abdicate the throne to her younger son 14th Wang Jung by writing his name on the decree:
Wang Yo: What did I do so wrong? I was afraid that I would be thrown away as well, just like So was. I thought I would be cast off. Mother said to me that I was complete and not lacking in anything. Yet...it is all your fault, because you got involved. You should choose! Who should I give the throne to? Choose! Wook, Baek Ah or So? You're so great! Why don't you choose?
When Wang So shows up, the King has already died from a heart attack and left the decree. Wang So reads the decree and rips it before everybody come in. Seeing that the situation may escalate, Hae Soo indeed becomes the one proclaiming Wang So king to the disbelief of Queen Yoo:
Hae Soo: Greetings to the new king. Long long may he live
And it appears that this is not a lie although it is not the truth either:
Wang So: You're curious about whose name the late king wrote in his last decree, aren't you? I are wondering whether I stole the throne or not.
Hae Soo: I do not think that at all. I am the person who is the least curious about that.
Wang So: It was blank! No one's name was written there
One can say that the same applies to Kylo Ren in the sense that Rey created the circumstances that led him to kill Snoke and Hux is actually the one who called him Supreme Leader:
Kylo Ren: The Supreme Leader is dead!
General Hux: Long live the Supreme Leader!
2) If Rey had accepted the offer...
How things could have turned for Reylo if Rey if she had accepted Kylo's offer? I think that SHR offers an interesting example of what could have happened with Rey would have accepted to be by Kylo Ren's side and I think that SHR shows that this is actually a good sign for Reylo that she didn't.
Everything seems to be perfect for Wang So and Hae Soo when Wang So finally rises to the throne with her by his side, because this is how Hae Soo imagine that things will happen:
A lot of people were clearly unsettled by the way things turned in the last episodes because this is basically where Beauty & the Beast meets Romeo & Juliet in that story. In these first weeks/months, Wang So is overwhelmed by the responsibility of the seat and becomes quickly aware of the implications of his position:
Wang So: Park Soo Kyung has left me. Baek Ah sees me only as his king and no longer as brother. For Choi Ji Mong, I am just an avenger of my oldest brother's death. Jung sees me as a murderer of our brothers. Even my own mother sees me only as a thief. The throne makes you scared and lonely
.
Hae Soo: I am here...I won't leave you
The problems begin right after his rise to the throne because his own mother, his brother 14th Wang Jung and many clans express doubt that the late King gave him the throne. Thus, the king must face growing protestations, leading to the emergence of his dark side:
A lot of people were unsettled by his sudden ruthless behavior as a king, not recognizing in King Gwangjong the Prince who had fallen in love with Hae Soo. The interesting thing is that both Hae Soo and Princess Yeon Hwa - whose goal is to become the Queen by marrying the King - think at some point that they can change him:
Hae Soo: I can change something bad into something good!
Princess Yeon Hwa: How interesting it would be to turn a Beast into a man
Guess what! They were both wrong because King Gwangjong reminds everybody - including the audience who might have forgotten - that:
The point isn't to say that Wang So was meant to have no character development - he definitely has - but that his trajectory is more complex than a Beast one make turn into a man for love. He may have always been devoted to those he loves no matter how they made him suffer, his former living conditions made him a ruthless warrior driven by survival mode, his life is being more exposed than ever given his position. SHR perfectly illustrates that one must give up the idea that one can force someone to change, a lesson that Hae Soo's mentor once teached her:
Court Lady Oh: Give up the idea that you can change a person
In the context of TLJ, let's keep in mind that one of the important lesson was teached by Yoda: failure is the greatest teacher. In this regard, Rey clearly failed because like Hae Soo she thought that forcing Kylo to turn his back from Snoke would change his convictions by magic. Of course, she ended up disappointed because you can't force a person to change if that person doesn't have the will to. In other words, the only person who can change Kylo Ren is Kylo Ren himself. Rey can be a source of motivation but the not the one whose job is to redeem him. That's why I think that she made the good decision in rejecting his offer despite her mistakes.
As for Hae Soo, she finds herself in the middle of an unending tragedy she can't stop because she is like a bird in a cage. From his side, the King becomes more and more ruthless as the snakes of the palace try to weaken his position. Hae Soo even becomes the bait his enemies use to force him to bow in front of the clans. This is where the fact that Hae Soo has no background enters into picture: 8th Prince Wang Wook - who was in love with her - use this argument to pressure the King, claiming that the clans won't accept a queen who has no background. Thus, he proposes the King to marry Princess Yeon Hwa with the goal to get Wang So and Hae Soo separated. The King refuses to bow in front of the clans because of his stubbornness, claiming he will marry Hae Soo no matter what. That's why the astronaut goes to Hae Soo and tries to convince her giving up to marry the king and let him go first:
Hae Soo: If the King will remain steadfast, why would I do that?
Choi Ji Mong: What has happened to everyone who was there? In a palace where the king is in danger, there is the smell of blood. You don't know when and where something may happen to him. In order to stop another tragedy, the throne must become stronger. You may be able to be a source of confort for his Majesty but you cannot be a source of political strenghth
In order to protect the King, Hae Soo convinces him to remain by his side only as his soulmate instead of his queen. Still, the descent to the Hell is not over for them. Despite the strengthening of the throne thanks to his marriage with Princess Yeon Hwa, Wang So must face his brothers' tricks, leading him to ruthless decisions toward them. Thus, his relationship with Hae Soo also begins to deteriorate as she disagress openly with his decisions, even going against his decision to let 14th Prince Wang Jung, condemned to exile, see their mother a last time on her deathbed:
Wang So: Why are you on Jung's side too? You, of all people, should be on my side!
Hae Soo: This is not about taking sides. Because of your ego, Jung wasn't at her deathbed.
Wang So: He is not the pitiful one. It was always me who was cast aside! Right before she died, she finally touched this face of mine. In all my 25 years of life, I have never had her to myself. Is it so wrong to send her off on my own?
Although Wang So and Hae Soo are clearly soulmates and faced all obstacles together, the last act show that they weren't prepared to face the burden of the throne together and so are Kylo Ren and Rey in TLJ. From her side, Hae Soo didn't really want this life and thus doesn't get very interested in the political intrigues so that she can't understand fully his motivations. From his side, Wang So feels always more isolated and realizes that the only person he desperately needs to lean on doesn't fully support him in the most difficult times. Thus, Hae Soo begins to reproach him some decisions although she doesn't know about the full context whereas the King begins to reproach her not to support him fully although he needs her. Although there are always good reasons behind his decisions, the King becomes increasingly cruel in his punishments, leading Hae Soo to consider leaving him and the palace. The warning she got from the astronaut Ji Mong comes back like a boomerang in her face when she realizes during her final conversation with Queen Daemok (former Princess Yeon Hwa) that she actually holds a responsibility in the family drama, eading to the contrary of her original goal. Thus, Hae Soo ultimately takes the decision to leave the palace, her decision being motivation by both personal and higher reasons:
- She is persuaded that she is responsible for the tragedies
- She still loves Wang So but she can't stand the palace life
- She has learned from the royal court doctor that her heart condition has deteriorated
- She leaves in order to protect something, not from the King himself but from the scary life in the palace
Despite their separation, Hae Soo never stopped loving Wang So and Wang So never stopped loving Hae Soo. The characterization of Hae Soo in the last episodes got criticism because she ended up pretty much like Padme, dying from a ill heart after giving birth, leaving the King more alone than ever. Although Reylo seems to follow a very similar road, I definitely think that Kylo's rise to the throne represented the lowest point of their relationship because contrary to Wang So he didn't get everything with the rise to the throne. Thus, he will have to accept that he can't have everything because the lesson of SHR is that no one can have everything, especially when it comes to love and power.
Even if a lot of people have wondered the utility of Hae Soo in this story considering how things turned in the last act, it appears that it wasn't all for nothing, simply not the way she expected, because...
3) He didn't want to become the Sun but shone brightly: why Supreme Leader Kylo Ren whouldn't be underestimated
Leia Organa: Hope is like the Sun. It you believe in it only when you see it, you will never make it through the night
The title of the poster makes it pretty clear that King Gwangjong was meant to shine brightly despite his difficult accession to the throne and this is where it becomes really interesting in regard to Kylo Ren's potential trajectory in Episode 9.
The interesting thing about Wang So and Kylo Ren is that they both begin their journey as ugly dunklings. We can say that Kylo Ren is the ugly dunkling of the Star Wars franchise. In the eyes of the general audience, he wasn't considered worth to bear the Skywalker legacy, probably the reason why so many people clang to the idea that Rey was meant to be a Skywalker. The way Snoke put him down by saying he is no Vader but only a child in a mask is also pretty telling about how he is considered by so many and himself: a failure. There is this strange discrepancy between the high expectations on the Skywalker spawn (Snoke seeing him as Vader 2; Luke seeing him as a Chosen One; etc...) and the difficulty for Kylo Ren to match these expectations. So I think it will be interesting to discover in the next episode how Kylo Ren could reveal his full potential now that he is his own master.
In SHR, Wang So was also seen as the ugly dunkling that everybody wanted to use as a weapon to fulfill his plans. It appears that the ugly dunkling - compared to an animal by his family - turned to be first the savior (during the rain ritual) and then political leader that the people didn't expect. He revealed his full political potential after he rose to the throne, cleverly managing to strengthen the throne and ensure the stability of the kingdom:
Wang Wook: The king has spent his time reading the Essentials of Government in the Zhenguan Reign. He is wielding his sword now. He is freeing the slaves and restoring them to their former status. He is taking power away from the noble class families. I wonder perhaps Goryeo has its most powerful king in history.
Aside from his ability to maintain himself on the throne, it appears that Hae Soo's role in SHR wasn't for nothing despite the bittersweet ending because...
Hae Soo to Wang So: Are you going to ignore me if I am a servant and apologize if I am a Princess? [...] The higher you are, the more you should care about justice, don't you think?
Queen Daemok : Hae Soo was the only one who spoke of all people being equal. You are emancipating those taken in slavery because you can't forget her. Do you think I wouldn't know?
King Gwangjong: Suppose I am. Even if you do know, would it change anything?
The ultimate proof that Wang So has grown to a wise king happens in this scene
When he figured out the truth, his first reaction is to demand that the child stays in the palace with him. Technically, nothing prevents him from having her by his side but ultimately the King takes the wisest decision he could take for the greater good. He understands Hae Soo's last wish because he is aware that the life in the palace is scary and dangerous. Thus, he finds the strength to renounce to his selfish wish to have his daughter by his side for her sake and ends up all alone.
When Hae Soo - back to the future - sees an exhibition about the Goryeo era, she understands that she had an impact, simply not the way she expected and is left with regret for having left him:
Regarding Kylo Ren, I think that like Wang So he will definitely have to face doubt over the succession and he will rise as public ennemy number one both for his ennemies within the FO, the Resistance and all people who hated Darth Vader in general. I think it is pretty safe to assume that the galaxy is unaware of the real identity of Supreme Leader Kylo Ren: the fact that he is Darth Vader's spawn will create more opposition to the FO and the fact that he is General Organa's son will raise doubt about his convictions within the FO. Plus, TLJ makes it pretty clear that he will probably face assassination attempt. In other words, the positions in which he finds himself makes him more exposed than ever to the danger.
Guess what? I don't think that this guy will let himself overthrown that easily. I think it would be truly great to see Supreme Leader Kylo Ren discovering in himself great political skills and revealing his full potential in following the footsteps of his maternal line: his grandmother was a Queen (and a Senator), his mother a Princess (and a Senator) and he is now an Emperor. Kylo Ren may have risen as the student overthrowing his master very much like Anakin intended to overthrow Sidious, my sense tells me that he will show more political skills than his grandfather who clearly despised politics.
An interesting thing that makes me think that Kylo Ren will reveal great political skills is to whom Adam Driver once compared Kylo Ren, to Princess Yuki from the Hidden Fortress:
You have, also, the hidden identity of this princess who's hiding who she really is so she can survive and Kylo Ren and her hiding behind these artifices"
Kylo Ren indeed showed in TLJ his ability to hide his true intentions to Snoke. In the throne room, he was definitely the strongest person there, showing an unexpected sangfroid and proceeding methodically. I was equally surprised by his ability to remain calm as Rey was yelling at him during their first interactions. For all his temper tantrums, his loss of control on Crait and his mental fiasco in front of Luke, Kylo Ren showed in TLJ that he can be a redoutable stratege when he has the will. IMO the situations he will be confronted with as Supreme Leader will force him to reveal his full potential. Who else in the SW franchise hid behind artifices in order to survive?
He could become redoutable where nobody - including himself expected him to be and IMO the choice of hi name can't be a coincidence either:
Kylo = ruler
One can ask oneself why the SW crew would have chosen for this "villain' a name holding the same meaning as his grandmother Padme, a name associated to the fifth virtue of Confucius: compassion, benevolence. We know that Kylo Ren is able to show compassion for people's sufferings. If there is one other character from the Star wars franchise that I would associate with compassion, it would definitely be Padme Amidala whom with Kylo Ren shares more similarities than it seems:
Padme was derived from the Buddhist mantra "Om Mani Padme Um" whose meaning is none other than "the jewel in the lotus" with the idea that the lotus is a jewel, a beautiful flower rising above the dark water. Knowing that the working title of Episode 9 is "Black diamond", could Kylo Ren be that jewel rising from the darkness to become an unexpected benevolent ruler and the potential savior of the galaxy?
Rey: Then, he is our only hope
TLJ introduced Kylo Ren as the focal point between the Dark Side and the Light Side, clearly hinting that he can neither fully embrace the Darkness nor the Light, with this idea that he will have to evolve to a balance to reconcile both sides within him:
Having now the most powerful position in the galaxy, it will be interesting to see how he will deal with the power that his position gives him. Let's keep in mind that TLJ confirmed that Kylo Ren as reversed Anakin, having got the position that his grandfather originally wanted to have. What was Anakin's original dream even before he wanted to become a Jedi? He dreamed that he would come back to Tatooine to put an end to slavery. This is something that his grandmother Padme Amidala also cared about. Kylo Ren might have never experienced slavery but let's keep in mind that he is aware that the woman he loved was sold as a slave, slavery being a recurrent topic in TLJ with Rey, the Broomboy and the Fathiers. Now, I don't know whether putting an end to slavery will be one of the key topic in Episode 9 but SW tend to work in circle. On a more personal level, I would love to see Supreme Leader Kylo Ren becoming the galactic hero nobody expected and making sure that the Skywalker family won't be remembered for Darth Vader's bloody legacy. I've always thought that the only way to allow Kylo Ren to live a peaceful life would be to become the savior of the galaxy alongside with Rey who can't redeem him but can serve as motivation to bring him on the right path. Kylo Ren and Rey might have interpreted their vision wrong in TLJ because they didn't pay attention about the context in which it could happen but there are certainly something right about the following things
- Rey will turn to stand by Kylo' side at some point, maybe because he will take right decisions
- Kylo will return with her help at some point, when balance will be found within him and between them
reylo1992- Force Ghost
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:49 pm
Here is a fascinating take on TLJ final scene that might cheer up those disappointed by Rey' s reaction at the end, courtesy of thereylovoid: http://reylo-trash-lives-here.tumblr.com/post/169053997671/i-think-theres-this-one-interesting-thing
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Re: The Renperor thread
by ISeeAnIsland Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:30 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Here is a fascinating take on TLJ final scene that might cheer up those disappointed by Rey' s reaction at the end, courtesy of thereylovoid: http://reylo-trash-lives-here.tumblr.com/post/169053997671/i-think-theres-this-one-interesting-thing
Yes! Some really great observations in that post. And the things that she calls out are exactly why I don't want to see much of a timejump between TLJ and IX.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:57 am
@ISeeAnIslandISeeAnIsland wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Here is a fascinating take on TLJ final scene that might cheer up those disappointed by Rey' s reaction at the end, courtesy of thereylovoid: http://reylo-trash-lives-here.tumblr.com/post/169053997671/i-think-theres-this-one-interesting-thing
Yes! Some really great observations in that post. And the things that she calls out are exactly why I don't want to see much of a timejump between TLJ and IX.
No, I don't either - a few months at the most.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by DarthRen Fri 29 Dec 2017, 5:11 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:@ISeeAnIslandISeeAnIsland wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Here is a fascinating take on TLJ final scene that might cheer up those disappointed by Rey' s reaction at the end, courtesy of thereylovoid: http://reylo-trash-lives-here.tumblr.com/post/169053997671/i-think-theres-this-one-interesting-thing
Yes! Some really great observations in that post. And the things that she calls out are exactly why I don't want to see much of a timejump between TLJ and IX.
No, I don't either - a few months at the most.
On one hand I don't want any or like maybe a few months at best timejump mainly because Kylo/Ben and Rey but then watching more of the Rebellion boring arc of trying re-group, Rey's Jedi training, Kylo/Ben sulking is not something amazing to see. Another reason why I don't see much of a timejump is that Hux would not tolerate Kylo much longer, not few years.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by Rei of Sunshine Fri 29 Dec 2017, 5:44 am
The time jump will likely be a few months and maximum 1 year. They still have to address the FB. And since it's not closed off permanently, Rey and Ben will probably have some 'accidental' meetings but both with brush it off.
They also have to build and present a motivation for Hux which was hinted at the end of TLJ.
Kylo's probably just starting to get cozy in his throne and implementing some projects when Jux finds the right moment to strike.
They also have to build and present a motivation for Hux which was hinted at the end of TLJ.
Kylo's probably just starting to get cozy in his throne and implementing some projects when Jux finds the right moment to strike.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 7:29 am
Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by FrolickingFizzgig Fri 29 Dec 2017, 7:39 am
On my third viewing I noticed that Rey left him his lightsaber. Like, it's directly next to him when Hux enters the throne room and finds him knocked out on his side. She really should have taken that thing with her. Come on, Rey. Think for a minute. You bothered to gather the broken pieces of your saber but left Renperor with his weapon?
Speaking of which, she should have just dragged him back onto the Falcon, stole those Force cuffs. The End.
Speaking of which, she should have just dragged him back onto the Falcon, stole those Force cuffs. The End.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 8:09 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
I could see where he might be injured and reaches out to her and she saves his life. When her Resistance friends find out - they flip. I suppose it could be vice versa....
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 9:56 am
@PalmettoBluePalmettoBlue wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
I could see where he might be injured and reaches out to her and she saves his life. When her Resistance friends find out - they flip. I suppose it could be vice versa....
I keep thinking of how the Resistance are going to react when they discover the Force bond - I can see Finn defending Rey, and Rose supporting him, but....what about the rest of them? And what if they recruit new members who are a little more....extreme?
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Re: The Renperor thread
by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 10:00 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:@PalmettoBluePalmettoBlue wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
I could see where he might be injured and reaches out to her and she saves his life. When her Resistance friends find out - they flip. I suppose it could be vice versa....
I keep thinking of how the Resistance are going to react when they discover the Force bond - I can see Finn defending Rey, and Rose supporting him, but....what about the rest of them? And what if they recruit new members who are a little more....extreme?
It’s going to be a mess...and it will hit those abandonment issues again.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by IoJovi Fri 29 Dec 2017, 10:01 am
@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:@PalmettoBluePalmettoBlue wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
I could see where he might be injured and reaches out to her and she saves his life. When her Resistance friends find out - they flip. I suppose it could be vice versa....
I keep thinking of how the Resistance are going to react when they discover the Force bond - I can see Finn defending Rey, and Rose supporting him, but....what about the rest of them? And what if they recruit new members who are a little more....extreme?
If we are counting on Poe Dameron to be the voice of reason, that’s PROBABLY not going to happen...
Lordy can Black Diamond get here any sooner? I need this movie in my life today...
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Re: The Renperor thread
by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 10:12 am
@IoJovi I need Black Diamond too. I’d love to see the script....
I think Poe matured a lot over the course of TLJ (since his actions were responsible for virtually wiping out the Resistance, he needed to), but I can certainly see him coming up with ways to try to exploit the FB....
I think even Rose, as pure of heart as she is, is going to have lots of trouble with that kind of intimate connection with Kylo Ren. And that doesn’t even touch Finn’s reaction.
I think Poe matured a lot over the course of TLJ (since his actions were responsible for virtually wiping out the Resistance, he needed to), but I can certainly see him coming up with ways to try to exploit the FB....
I think even Rose, as pure of heart as she is, is going to have lots of trouble with that kind of intimate connection with Kylo Ren. And that doesn’t even touch Finn’s reaction.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 10:20 am
@IoJoviIoJovi wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:@PalmettoBluePalmettoBlue wrote:@motherofpearl1motherofpearl1 wrote:Wonder if Hux and/or the Resistance try an assassination attempt....and Rey has to make a choice as to whether she should save him or not.
I could see where he might be injured and reaches out to her and she saves his life. When her Resistance friends find out - they flip. I suppose it could be vice versa....
I keep thinking of how the Resistance are going to react when they discover the Force bond - I can see Finn defending Rey, and Rose supporting him, but....what about the rest of them? And what if they recruit new members who are a little more....extreme?
If we are counting on Poe Dameron to be the voice of reason, that’s PROBABLY not going to happen...
Lordy can Black Diamond get here any sooner? I need this movie in my life today...
Okay...I have a weird headcanon where Poe makes a play for Rey only for it to end in tears when he finds out she’s Force skype ing the new Supreme Leader!
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Re: The Renperor thread
by lauvamp Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:11 pm
I would love to see increased the menace that Hux supposes. He really can't stand Kylo and tried to kill him when he was unconscious, so...
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Re: The Renperor thread
by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:14 pm
Hux is the kind to have others do his dirty work. If Phasma survived, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t enlist her to do away with Kylo. But that’s not going to end well for her. I’m pretty sure this whole trilogy isn’t going to end well for Hux and Phasma, actually.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by motherofpearl1 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:15 pm
@lauvamplauvamp wrote:I would love to see increased the menace that Hux supposes. He really can't stand Kylo and tried to kill him when he was unconscious, so...
Domhnall made Hux so over the top he was funny......but at the end of TLJ he suddenly stopped being comical and became chilling. Now Snoke is gone, Hux would make an excellent uber baddie. You don’t have to be Force sensitive to be terrifying. He would make a fine successor to Peter Cushing’s Tarkin.
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Re: The Renperor thread
by ZioRen Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:30 pm
If Hux decides to turn a bunch of Stormtroopers against Kylo, he's going to be in a lot of danger Force powers or not. I think the PT taught us that.
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