The Last Jedi General Discussion

@Riri
superb
good job!!!!

Thanks!
@Teo oswald

Theres also this line:
Ben in TFA: i'm being torn apart
Rey to Ben in TLJ: I feel the conflict within you its tearing you apart.

It's just so much reassurance for Ben, she truly knows him so well! She's literally responding to all his doubts and fears.

I had the most interesting thought today about what Rey and Ben saw when they touched hands, and it opens up some intruiging possibilities.

It has to do with the idea of "assumptions." We've talked about how when Rey and Ben touched each other and saw things, they may have both made assumptions that suited their own agendas. We've speculated that maybe they both saw what happened in the throne room, but reached a different outcome in their minds.

But there's another idea about "assumptions" that didn't actually occur to me today, and it's kind of a big one:

Why is Rey so sure that what she saw was Ben Solo's FUTURE? Was there a Force voice booming around her saying "THIS IS THE FUTURE!" No, probably not. Therefore, it's possible that Rey made a HUGE assumption about what the vision was actually showing her. Maybe it wasn't actually the future.

So I thought about the counterpart. What was Ben's vision showing him? All of us (him, Rey, and the audience) essentially believe he was being shown Rey's past. But when you REALLY think about how he revealed that past to her (basically getting her to say what she'd always known), there is another, equally likely possibility: he was shown Rey's deepest fear in detail. That would explain why she was able to say it so easily as if it was what she had always known. But if it's NOT actually her true past, then we don't know how/why her parents left. Regardless, Kylo didn't actually know that when he told her - he legitimately thought he was seeing the truth. (And note: in no way do I think that would mean Rey is a secret Skywalker/Solo... BUT it *could* still leave the possibility of Rey Kenobi open, for those that enjoy that option.)

OK, back to the more interesting counterpart to this. If Kylo was simply seeing Rey's deepest fear, then what did Rey see? It must have been something positive for her to respond to it the way she did. So, if one of the overriding themes of this sequel trilogy is balance, it was the polar opposite of deepest fear, meaning... she saw Ben's greatest hope. And whatever it was, I suspect it was something that she felt she could self-insert into (likely something to do with love and family).

So yeah, those are my thoughts on that. Basically it would be significant because it wouldn't close the door on some alternate parentage theories if that's what you're into and it also wouldn't mean that Kylo was lying or being manipulative. It would also *completely* fit in with the way that Rian explained Rey's parentage reveal, in that he said that Kylo doesn't believe he was lying, and that it's legitimately what he saw. Also, that it was the worst thing Rey could have heard in that moment. And that J.J. *could* retcon if he wanted to. It all fits really nicely.

Riri wrote:Not sure if anyone noticed these parralels!

@Riri

I adore the parallels, but I still sort of wonder whether Rey could hear the conversation between Ben and Han on SKB, because she sort of reassured him with by basically paraphrasing him exactly. Is it just for the audience to recall or is it in-universe, that she heard and remembered his words.

--

Also, I just remembered another echoing within TLJ, which was when earlier in the film when Snoke insulted Kylo Ren and he replied with "I gave everything to you.. to the Dark Side". I think that was when he properly realised that Snoke used him for his powers just like his father warned him. And then again later, when Rey was about to be distracted for information and Luke's location, Snoke said something along the lines of "Now give me everything". The phrasings are so similar that I feel that it would've struck him somehow. Like he wouldn't allow Snoke to use Rey for his powers like he was, the same way he told Rey that Luke senses the same power in her as he did in Ben, almost in like a warning. I'm starting to think that all these echoes are for Ben to relate to Rey even more, in the way that he sees her as a version of himself uncorrupted in the past at the crossroads between the Light and Dark. And his resolve to save her from either side (Luke and Snoke) was like a way of saving the younger version of himself the way no one did. Does that make sense?

@nickandnora I like what you write !!!!! Someone could write us a whole fanfiction about your brilliant idea.

In addition to this your consideration. As I am an incurable romantic. Just to read it again once again. I would like to add that: the only reason that would give Them the reason to risk their life is love. Belonging. See Ben as her husband in the future, or their children.

Like Ben, the only thing that could convince him to kill his teacher is the promise of being loved and accepted in his dual being. Clear, dark. The only thing nobody has ever given for him and that he wants more than his life. And because, in my opinion, even in consideration, of the expressions they make when they touch their hands. I believe he saw his love matched. But I think something more material, like making love or she cooks lunch for him :-D ... I want to say something so intimate and desired, to be willing to do anything.

I think they did not see everything, because neither could accept to change sides, they hypothesized that the other would change. This I think will be the topic covered in episode IX.

@Riri This parallel is beautiful.

@thescavenger Your vision is beautiful. I like to consider what you say. He thinks to have the strength to bear contempt, disappointment, abandonment and torture, but nobody has to touch "the girl".

I'm going to sound real dense - how does one watch this ABC Live Stream tomorrow? I'm in the UK and I'm having a go slow week.

So just realized another motif which gets repeated in an interesting way. We have:

1. HOPE as one of the central ones for the franchise and this film. Snoke's rant about Hope lives, Leia's line at the end about how Hope is gone, she's lost Hope in the child she named after her only Hope.

2. HOME is Rey's greatest wish & her mission to return BB-8, Leia and Rey wearing matched bracelets as beacons to "bring her home," Han telling Ben he wants him to come home, Poe's line after SKB blows up that they're going home...

3. TOO MUCH OF HIS FATHER/VADER IN HIM - "you have your father's heart, young Solo." And the Dice which appear in TLJ and likely in Solo.

I just realized there's another one which gets repeated between the two movies, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Ben parrots back something to Han about how he destroyed who he was because he's like his father, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Skip ahead to the Throne Room Scene when Snoke has Rey in his clutches and is monologuing about how he supposedly set up their bond. He says he knew it would work that Ben was too WEAK to resist the temptation posed by Rey (too much of his father in him?) and that she would be too FOOLISH to resist the urge to sympathize and help him. So Ben was 100% repeating something Snoke said to him over and over again. But uh, interesting choice to use those two words again which parallel the same type of test, where this time Ben knows what he has to do, which is to kill his true enemy b/c Snoke wants him to 'deliver the cruelest blow' in killing somebody he loves.

@snufkin Beautiful insights.

I Add the phrase: We will win by saving who we love and not destroying what we hate. Rouge One, Rose to Finn, Battelfront II.

@giaciak2 Thank you for your kind words! However I don't think Rose's statement falls into the same type of pattern I'm talking about. Rose's statement is a different type of verbal statement. What I'm talking about with the above are repeating words/phrases which are used in both films around the same characters. It's not a coincidence, but enough repeated instances between the two films, written by 4 different writers (JJ, Kasdan, Johnson, and Carrie Fisher), that it forms a pattern and potential themes. Rose's statement is a declaration at the end of the film and is very much specific to that one film and the point one writer (Rian Johnson) was trying to get across. What Rose says is a mission statement. But it's not a repeating motif/theme that we see with the repetition of HOPE, HOME, HE HAS TOO MUCH OF HIS FATHER'S HEART (SOLO) IN HIM, and WEAK/FOOLISH that's now shown in 3 separate films.

Seriously guys, that bit with Snoke calling them Weak and Foolish and then getting sliced in half by the guy he berated for having too much of his father's weak and foolish heart in him? That's deliberate on the part of the writers.

@snufkin

Also: Holdo's line about "Hope is like the sun" which she gets from Leia; Rey believing that Ben Solo is "our last hope" and convincing him to turn is how they will win; Leia's message to Obiwan used also to remind us about another hope.

And yes you're so right about "weak and foolish". That has to be a deliberate choice by the writers. And Snoke saying in TFA that he needs to "complete his training" is repeated in TLJ when he tells Ben to "complete his training" by killing Rey with the cruelest stroke. Just like Han was killed with the cruelest stroke (by someone he loves).

@rawpowah I forgot about Holdo's repetition of that theme, so thanks! Man, I feel like I need to start an Excel spreadsheet to track all of these!

And yes, I'm still snickering about that particular detail leading to Snoke getting taken out with what was the cruelest stroke to him - being killed by the person he thought he controlled as a rejection of his worldview b/c they were protecting somebody they loved.

snufkin wrote:@rawpowah I forgot about Holdo's repetition of that theme, so thanks! Man, I feel like I need to start an Excel spreadsheet to track all of these!

And yes, I'm still snickering about that particular detail leading to Snoke getting taken out with what was the cruelest stroke to him - being killed by the person he thought he controlled as a rejection of his worldview b/c they were protecting somebody they loved.

@snufkin

This is just beautiful and I didn't even catch that.  It makes Snoke's death just that much more satisfying than it even was before...

@snufkin

Re: Snoke - Earlier in the movie, Luke talks about his hubris getting the best of him and leading to his downfall (when training Ben because of his mighty Skywalker blood). Later on, Snoke's hubris gets the best of him in the throne room and that leads to his downfall (after he too makes the mistake of thinking that he can shape Ben because of the potential of his bloodline).

We really should keep track of these things because JJ kind of has to follow through with them in IX, so it might give us more insight once news about IX starts appearing.

@IoJovi RIP Snoke: death by hubris and the power of love.

@IoJovi - that's further part of what I've thought could be an eventual theme/pay off around Han's death. That no matter how cruel/awful the choice was that Ben made, his sacrifice saves Rey in that moment and eventually Ben's soul/life. It's a repeated pattern and the whole Kasdan role in writing all of this, it's not a coincidence. I mean sure, "JJ will fix that!" because he's not cowriting with Kasdan and Carrie Fisher isn't around to keep him in line. But that'd be throwing away probably something they've hammered out and discussed/written about over the past 5 years.

@rawpowah it's a detail I haven't seen discussed at length anywhere. Luke straight up admits to Rey that he's let Leia continue to think that Ben was corrupted/turned by Snoke. But that he was the one who first noticed his power/potential and targeted him to consolidate his legacy. And yes, they're both undone by Ben eventually (cue Lando's line about any offspring of his friends is going to cause mayhem) turning on the both of them for using him for their own means. And the line's been said here that Snoke thinking he should pair up two lonely attractive intelligent and sensitive young people of the opposite sex, that's like a PT type of bad management decision.

Guys, is this confirmed? Haven't read anything from Twitter or Tumblr

lauvamp wrote:

Guys, is this confirmed? Haven't read anything from Twitter or Tumblr

@lauvamp

It's Mike Zeroh. It has a 99.99% chance of being fake.

lauvamp wrote:

Guys, is this confirmed? Haven't read anything from Twitter or Tumblr

@lauvamp

It’s Mike Zeroh. This is the same guy who had 20,000 different conflicting leaks prior to TLJ. I take it with a huge grain of salt.

Also, all the deleted scenes which will being showing imup on the Blue Ray have all been detailed. None of them involve Reylo, or even Kylo unfortunately. I wish this were true, believe me!

IoJovi wrote:

lauvamp wrote:

Guys, is this confirmed? Haven't read anything from Twitter or Tumblr

@lauvamp

It’s Mike Zeroh. This is the same guy who had 20,000 different conflicting leaks prior to TLJ. I take it with a huge grain of salt.

Also, all the deleted scenes which will being showing imup on the Blue Ray have all been detailed. None of them involve Reylo, or even Kylo unfortunately. I wish this were true, believe me!

@IoJovi

For the heck of it, I watched the video, and it doesn't sound like it fits with the final sequence of the movie.

It supposedly took place while Kylo was in his command shuttle (before going down to confront Luke "in person") and while Rey was standing outside of the cave on Crait, looking at the rocks that she was about to life.

If I recall, Rey looking at the rocks happens *after* Kylo had engaged Luke already.

It also seems strange that they'd have a FB moment while Kylo is in a shuttle full of people (given that the previous FB connections always happened when they were alone/nearly alone), and that they'd have that connection and then the final connection a few moments later (post-Luke-confrontation).

It did happen after Kylo engaged Luke. Poe and Finn and the rest were watching as Kylo went down to confront Luke and it was realizing that Luke was buying time for them that made Poe jump to action and say they should find a way out. By the time they found their exit blocked off and Rey got there to lift the rocks away, Kylo was already well into the "final battle" with Luke. Zeroh's timeline makes no sense.

ZioRen wrote:It did happen after Kylo engaged Luke. Poe and Finn and the rest were watching as Kylo went down to confront Luke and it was realizing that Luke was buying time for them that made Poe jump to action and say they should find a way out. By the time they found their exit blocked off and Rey got there to lift the rocks away, Kylo was already well into the "final battle" with Luke. The timeline makes no sense.

@ZioRen

Oh Mike Zeroh, never change...

It's a good thing none of the FB scenes were cut. Means that Rian prioritized the Reylo scenes above all. He had to cut out the fish nun village, Finn and Rose's fight scene on Supremacy and some others, but not Reylo. Never Reylo.

We got the full story in the movie. So yeah Zeroh should eat his hat.

I happened upon a month-old tweet setting the throne room fight to Fleetwood Mac's The Chain. Presumably someone has posted it around here somewhere. But one thing: having watched it a few times, Kylo is a way better swordsman than at the end of TFA, and Rey struggles at times. Kylo is pretty much taking on three guys the whole time. He's really good. So I think the whole thing about him not really trying to hurt Rey in the forest, just trying to scare her into submission, must be true.

Also, the most purely sexual look is probably the one that they exchange right after she catches the floating saber and before they turn back-to back to fight.

I haven't been on in a while, life has been busy, but I'm in a mood tonight. I see that Reylo is still #1 on Tumblr. We need a karaoke moment. Can I get some gifs to go along with this song Reylo fam? Please join me, renaming this song "Sweet Reylo"  



Please sing along with me!

Where it began, I can't begin to know when
But then I know it's growing strong
Was in the spring
And spring became the summer
Who'd have believed you'd come along

Hands, touching hands, reaching out
Touching me, touching you

Sweet Reylo
Good times never seemed so good
I've been inclined
to believe they never would... but now I...

...look at the night
And it don't seem so lonely
We fill it up with only two

And when I hurt
Hurting runs off my shoulders
How can I hurt when holding you

One, touching one, reaching out
Touching me, touching you

Sweet Reylo
Good times never seemed so good
I've been inclined to believe they never would, oh no, no

Sweet Reylo, good times never seem so good
Sweet Reylo, I believed they never could...

Phew I didn’t need to download another app - just started watching. I’m such a geek for anything behind the scenes. I loved some of the language they used...’because you can’t see it you hear it and that is a pure feeling’ and can be manipulated and expanded but also to create intimacy by taking sound away in a vacuum (using Rey and Kylos first force bond scene) Its like art and is magical ! It’s so nice to see parts of the film in HD rather than grainy pics

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/star-wars-sound-designers-reveal-secret-sounds-bring/story?id=53111130