Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

tukicarreno wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Which proves it's genuine

@motherofpearl1

So the mouse has taken the pic out of circulation but the leaks keep going around? That's why I still have hope those leaks are not completely right..

@tukicarreno

BOOM!

As an aside, the trailer itself gives that hope: the last line we hear during the trailer (remember, essentially - trailers do not lie) is Carrie Fisher/Leia "Always". The word always utilized with Leia IS hope. Plus, Ben is Leia's son, not only is he a Solo (and an Organa ), he is a Skywalker. Not only will Ben not die because of future business/story options, but also, because he is Leia's son.

@SW_Heroine_Journey

Exactly! Totally agree! It just makes sense.

OrionStars wrote:@Geralt_Riv

Yeah, maybe. JP really doesn't know his source in flesh and blood, he already admitted it, he met this source through the internet. Probably it's really hard for them to track the source down because the source is anonymous? but my friend who works for IT company said if they really want to track the source down, then there are plenty of ways to do it. So there is another possibility than the source didn't give away the most important part(s) of the film, therefore, Disney spared them, just like how they shut ATAT down because he dared to leak the info of Palpy. If ATAT only leaked Finn/Poe stuff, they probably wouldn't have to threaten him.

Anw, ATAT has just said on twitter that it's very likely that JW and JP got specific scenes from a person of the team who was supposed to take care of trailer and TV spots, because they need months to work for these stuff and the scenes they choose to put in trailer and tv spots are usually framed out and set in stone so it's really easy to leak them out. ATAT also said he even had to work for a single commercial for several months

@OrionStars

But why would they access to scenes that would never make it to the trailers/tv spots? Like how would these ad people know about the stabbing scene and ending?

@OrionStars With all respect to ATAT, working on ad for 7 months is irrelevant example because it's not the trailer for fricking Star Wars. As I said in that thread, JJ stated they edited TFA trailer in a week before release. That's because it makes sense, all things considered. We now suppose to believe that JJ lied and it's normal to make final cut(!!!) of the trailer 3 months in advance without any last touches that will contradict leaks. I mean, it's not completely impossible, I just can't believe that people are so sure about when everything points otherwise. First it was merch and toys, then it were stills for magazines, now it's trailer. I know that some Reylo people sit on some marketing leaks that they got early and think it's a proof that other leakers got leaks from marketing too. To me it's hardly a proof and if there was really something seriously contradicting plot structure, they would have said long time ago.

@special_cases

Which is very odd. Almost like he doesn't want her to find Palpatine on her own. Because - at this point - why the heck she needs that wayfinder that much and why she is chasing after Palpy?

I was *just* coming in here to post something about this, because Ben's motivation confuses me. So, he goes to Palpy. Palpy tells Ben that he's Rey's grandfather, and also that he wants Kylo to have the Sith fleet (I think this is what it says). Does he also tell Kylo he wants him to bring Rey to him? I can't remember. Anyway, it seems from what I can remember, after this point Kylo spends a heck of a lot of time trying to get Rey a) away from that dagger, and b) away from Palpatine. He doesn't even tell her what he told him about being her grandfather until the Death Star scene (and I'm wondering if he does so under duress at this point). I almost feel like the leaks are trying to tell us something about Kylo's motivation here in spite of themselves. Is Kylo trying to protect Rey in this situation? Does he take the Sith fleet out of emotional blackmail or something? The early leaks said something about Palpatine telling him he and Rey could rule together and that seemed kind of like the motivation we could read between the lines, but that still doesn't explain why it seems like he's trying to keep Rey away from all of that in the leaks. Or am I totally misremembering what the leaks are saying?

As per usual with this source, the information might be right, but for some reason the motivations and context are really, really muddy.

ETA: I suppose if we were looking at this really simplistically as though Kylo simply craves power or all of Palpatine's attention we can perhaps view it as a competitive thing; he doesn't want Rey to find Palpatine because he wants all "this" to himself. But then why does Palpatine bring up Rey at all? Is it like, "If you're not interested, I think my granddaughter who has the darkness of my bloodline building in her slowly WOULD be." But any time I try to justify it, it doesn't match up with what comes after.

@nickandnora So all Kylo's motivations in leaks we all need to guess on our own because the source is either that dumb when it comes to the story (sorry not sorry, I hire and manage VFX staff and this is not crowd that is good with something like this) or hate Kylo that much that they can't articulate that the film starts with Kylo on redeeming path, with getting PTSD flashbacks.

Kylo is desperately looking for the source of Snoke's power? Why? Perhaps Snoke managed to do something that Kylo can't? Perhaps... opening a mind bridge that wasn't opened since Crait.

So Kylo finds Vader's wayfinder and goes to Palpy. Palpy is luring him.

In last edit Kylo is very agressive with Palpy during their meeting. He doesn't believe him. Palpy tells about fleet, new Empire and that he is Rey's family. And... it's unclear if Kylo agrees to bring Rey to him.

Then Kylo reveals to FO officers that he knows that there is a spy. And it's good because Rey will come out of hiding.

Only after this Kylo is able to open the bond to Rey when she is on Pasaana, already looking for way to find Palpatine and the fleeth. (Why is beyond my understanding, it's more suicide that going just after FO)

I'm sure this has been seen by many here, yet by chance it has not been - worth considering (if concerned about the leaks)

I know people get rally excited about merch/toy leaks, but I never understood why? Merch often contradicts the story itself. The odd leak that is right comes from elsewhere. Didn't Hux have a jetpack once?

Like a few people have said, Kylo is a cash cow, think of all the stuff, and all the future books and comics, you can't make money off if he dies. Even though this is quite the proven moneymaker with the old EU's endless books about the OT3 after the films. Whether they were good or not is another matter, but you know the mouse can't resist the revenue. Long term, it will also make the ST more beloved, thus another cash stream. Cynical, but also positive for everyone!

The main issue with stabby Rey is that it seems so petty and sadistic. She's angry and sometimes violent, but not in a creepy way that revels in pain. If it's dark!Rey, or she's getting close to it, they didn't specify that at all, there's no clarification of what dark!Rey even is, or why it is. The leaks show little depth or development for her, but trailers and interviews are already upsetting that image. They didn't know Finn and Jannah were there too? Bare minimum, there's a lot missing here.

@rey09
JW said he has multi-sources, some sources only give him a tidbit of plot points like the stabbing scene, the ending, etc....Then there are the other sources who are willing to provide JW actual footage, such as the Palpy's throne room scene, but JW's sources already gave him false specific scenes of the trailer, he was really confident that it was true and it turned out that his trailer leak was wrong. I don't know if it was the same sources who gave him footage of Palpy's throne room, or different people.
I don't know much about JP's source, he has stopped discussing about his source since the day he admitted that he didn't know the source in person.

@special_cases
Yeah, of course, it's just ATAT's speculation based on his personal experience. We probably will never know who exactly are JP/JW's sources, unless Disney publicly "order 66" them on the street, ehehehe. To be honest, I'm not trying to find an excuse to rule out the leaks, I've already accepted that Kylo might fall down the pit and wouldn't participate in the final battle. It's probably would be just Rey and the ...voice or... spirit of ghosts or whatever form of ghosts they choose just to avoid being banned from China's market. If JJ wants Daisy to face the extreme level of MarySue backlash from people around the world, so be it. My bar of expectation is so low now all I can do is praying that the force saves Kylo and he's still alive somehow.

special_cases wrote:@nickandnora So all Kylo's motivations in leaks we all need to guess on our own because the source is either that dumb when it comes to the story (sorry not sorry, I hire and manage VFX staff and this is not crowd that is good with something like this) or hate Kylo that much that they can't articulate that the film starts with Kylo on redeeming path, with getting PTSD flashbacks.

Kylo is desperately looking for the source of Snoke's power? Why? Perhaps Snoke managed to do something that Kylo can't? Perhaps... opening a mind bridge that wasn't opened since Crait.

So Kylo finds Vader's wayfinder and goes to Palpy. Palpy is luring him.

In last edit Kylo is very agressive with Palpy during their meeting. He doesn't believe him. Palpy tells about fleet, new Empire and that he is Rey's family. And... it's unclear if Kylo agrees to bring Rey to him.

Then Kylo reveals to FO officers that he knows that there is a spy. And it's good because Rey will come out of hiding.

Only after this Kylo is able to open the bond to Rey when she is on Pasaana, already looking for way to find Palpatine and the fleeth. (Why is beyond my understanding, it's more suicide that going just after FO)

@special_cases

God, why is it so hard for my brain to connect those separate pieces together properly? I read everything you wrote and it's like the worst kind of math problem (not your fault, it's the leaks themselves). I swear, two minutes of a trailer did a world more to clarify context for me than 17 pages of nonsense.

@californiagirl

They didn't know Finn and Jannah were there too? Bare minimum, there's a lot missing here.

Yeah, this was a *big* thing for me, and a potentially important missing piece. The biggest current hole in this is how Kylo gets off that Death Star and what happens to him next. With Rey taking off, but Kylo remaining there (post-death, possibly hallucinating Han), is it possible that it's Finn and Jannah that detain him in his weakness? I'm not saying even then it would explain how he gets to Rey and Palpatine, but if that's a missing piece, it's a big missing piece that potentially makes what happens next more exciting.

@nickandnora Maybe because English isn't my first language so my descriptions are always limited. I do think that this Kylo's meeting with Palpatine has a lot of ommited information. The source said that Kylo's behaviour was changed in recent reshoots, but it's obviously lie or lack of knowledge of original scenes.

To clarify for people who don't read leaks: Finn and Jannah are chasing after Rey on DS in the leaks. It's not missed information.

special_cases wrote:@nickandnora Maybe because English isn't my first language so my descriptions are always limited. I do think that this Kylo's meeting with Palpatine has a lot of ommited information. The source said that Kylo's behaviour was changed in recent reshoots, but it's obviously lie or lack of knowledge of original scenes.

No no, you're good! It's not the info that's bad, it's that there isn't one unifying thread to make all of his behaviour make sense (and I don't know, maybe there isn't supposed to be, but I do think there should be more of a hint).

Lol "reshoots." It's also possible (and probable) that some of this is due to the source and/or JP not understanding that more than one take is done, with different interpretations of the scene. Like, "OK Adam, now do it like you're angry. Now like you're lovestruck. Now like you're depressed." They're not reshoots for godsake. They're just different versions of the same scene that were already shot.

To clarify for people who don't read leaks: Finn and Jannah are chasing after Rey on DS in the leaks. It's not missed information.

@special_cases
Really? Oh shoot, I missed it (easy to do in a novel). My point is, they disappear afterwards (from the leaks on the DS, right?) Like, where did they go after they chase her?

special_cases wrote:@Saracene In leaks Finn and Jannah chase after Rey on and in DS ruins. It looks like she is faster than them and the moment Finn screams "Rey" is when she is going inside the ruins without them. It seems like Rey is very determined to get to the Throne Room. Kylo is waiting for her in TR after she got a vision, they have conversation and then Kylo destroys her wayfinder and tells her that the only way to get to Palpatine is through Kylo. Which is very odd. Almost like he doesn't want her to find Palpatine on her own. Because - at this point - why the heck she needs that wayfinder that much and why she is chasing after Palpy? To kill him? Rey looks quite wild and lost in that water scene.

@special_cases

Ah I see. But even if Finn and Jannah lose Rey at some point, they're still involved and I don't see Finn just giving up on finding Rey. Plus, at some further point Rey and Kylo must make it out of the Throne Room and fight outside, so the two parties could intersect somehow?

Saracene wrote:

special_cases wrote:@Saracene In leaks Finn and Jannah chase after Rey on and in DS ruins. It looks like she is faster than them and the moment Finn screams "Rey" is when she is going inside the ruins without them. It seems like Rey is very determined to get to the Throne Room. Kylo is waiting for her in TR after she got a vision, they have conversation and then Kylo destroys her wayfinder and tells her that the only way to get to Palpatine is through Kylo. Which is very odd. Almost like he doesn't want her to find Palpatine on her own. Because - at this point - why the heck she needs that wayfinder that much and why she is chasing after Palpy? To kill him? Rey looks quite wild and lost in that water scene.

@special_cases

Ah I see. But even if Finn and Jannah lose Rey at some point, they're still involved and I don't see Finn just giving up on finding Rey. Plus, at some further point Rey and Kylo must make it out of the Throne Room and fight outside, so the two parties could intersect somehow?

@Saracene

Yeah, because if I'm reading this info correctly (though someone can correct me if I'm reading incorrectly) Finn and Jannah either wait for her to reappear out of concern, or take off like, "Relax, she knows what she's doing." Both options are a little awkward, but the first one makes a bit more in-character sense.

@AcrosstheStars

I was looking at JP leaks and saw that after she stabs him, that's when she runs off to Achto (or apparently somewhere else in reshoots) and she meets Luke and she's mad at herself for her dark side actions, including killing him. But it sounds super cheap. Esp killing your force soulmate? Then luke just encourages her to fight palpatine, giving her leia's saber.

I didn't search the rest but idk where this resurrection skill comes from out of nowhere. And it puts little meaning in the resurrection. Usually they come from a place of love, not hate/remorse?

@nickandnora @Saracene It seems they are unable to get inside the ruins so after Rey jumps inside they return to the ship. The next time we see them they repaired the ship to leave the planet and return to the base. Rey simply ditches them before all interactions with Kylo happen. So there is only two possible moments when Finn can do his scream: when she is jumping inside for the first time or when Resistance is prepared to leave and see that Kylo's ship (without knowing that Rey is alone inside) is leaving too. Perhaps Finn thinks that Kylo abducted Rey again, so callback to TFA.

Also, in last edit Rey had an angry fight with Poe in the beginning of the movie. So according to everything in the leaks, Rey is actually not that invested in shared journey for new trio. She is constantly asking them to remove themselves from her action sequences with Kylo or ditching them or doing something different from what they want/decided (mostly different to Poe).

Wait... Rey stabs Kylo in the heart in Palpy's throne room on the death star?

special_cases wrote:@nickandnora @Saracene It seems they are unable to get inside the ruins so after Rey jumps inside they return to the ship. The next time we see them they repaired the ship to leave the planet and return to the base. Rey simply ditches them before all interactions with Kylo happen. So there is only two possible moments when Finn can do his scream: when she is jumping inside for the first time or when Resistance is prepared to leave and see that Kylo's ship (without knowing that Rey is alone inside) is leaving too. Perhaps Finn thinks that Kylo abducted Rey again, so callback to TFA.

Also, in last edit Rey had an angry fight with Poe in the beginning of the movie. So according to everything in the leaks, Rey is actually not that invested in shared journey for new trio. She is constantly asking them to remove themselves from her action sequences with Kylo or ditching them or doing something different from what they want/decided (mostly different to Poe).

@special_cases

Okay, I read the pertinent part again (and it was painful - the editorializing in some parts, basically anything pertaining to Kylo, is both ridiculous and suspicious). I guess there is a *slight* chance that Finn and Jannah actually stick around long enough to see Kylo on the Death Star and bring him with them. It's possible that the timing is a bit backwards and what Finn actually screams at is Rey leaving the wreckage. Also, I keep thinking in the section that follows that it would be insanely more interesting if Kylo was back with the Resistance with all the potential interactions that could occur there instead of him being... well, nowhere apparently. It would strike me as odd if Finn never had an interaction with Kylo again given how things went in TFA.

One thing mildly interesting to note here: the source waffles on how the Resistance gets coordinates to the Unknown Regions. First it's that Rey transmits them to them. Then it's changed to D-0. Now, this IS possible to change in reshoots (like, actual reshoots) but the way it's worded I also find it possible that the source doesn't know how and is guessing. Again, MUCH more interesting if it's that Kylo tells them. But that's just my opinion and preference for a more intriguing story speaking.

The more simple answer to this that resolves the pit conundrum in a positive way is that Kylo force projects himself to Rey on Exogol, and when he falls in the pit he simply returns to the Death Star. But in that case, there's a scene missing because I'm presuming they wouldn't leave that up to interpretation and someone actually has to find him there afterwards.

special_cases wrote:@nickandnora @Saracene It seems they are unable to get inside the ruins so after Rey jumps inside they return to the ship. The next time we see them they repaired the ship to leave the planet and return to the base. Rey simply ditches them before all interactions with Kylo happen. So there is only two possible moments when Finn can do his scream: when she is jumping inside for the first time or when Resistance is prepared to leave and see that Kylo's ship (without knowing that Rey is alone inside) is leaving too. Perhaps Finn thinks that Kylo abducted Rey again, so callback to TFA.

Also, in last edit Rey had an angry fight with Poe in the beginning of the movie. So according to everything in the leaks, Rey is actually not that invested in shared journey for new trio. She is constantly asking them to remove themselves from her action sequences with Kylo or ditching them or doing something different from what they want/decided (mostly different to Poe).

@special_cases

Ha, it was obvious enough that this would happen! Happened with Luke, too. "Trio" folks can whine all they want to but the fact is that Rey has to leave the mundanes behind for her real challenges, i.e. interacting with Kylo and facing Palps, and it was always going to take up a huge chunk of her screentime. Especially in the final act.

I mean, the only reason Finn is still alive is because Kylo was toying with him in TFA and then Rey got up. If he or Poe showed up during Reylo interaction in TROS in a significant way, they'd be the ones getting thrown down a pit within five seconds.

@spacebaby45678 There are three locations on DS: the Throne Room(1), Palpatine's chambers(2) and outside(3). First Rey goes to 2, then she stumbles back in 1 and Kylo waits here there. He destroys what she found in 2. They begin fighting, maybe because Rey wants last wayfinder above everything else, and they transported to location 3, outside. They resume their fight and that's when she stabs him.

The alternative explanation is that the source mixed scenes from reality and Rey's vision in location 2. Perhaps she saw that she will kill Kylo here on DS, as future. And when they start fighting, it changes because of what she saw. I mean, they were shooting that scene for 6 days. How long can be a fight in such limited space. Maybe there are two alternative fights, one from vision, another is reality.

rey09 wrote:
@AcrosstheStars

I was looking at JP leaks and saw that after she stabs him, that's when she runs off to Achto (or apparently somewhere else in reshoots) and she meets Luke and she's mad at herself for her dark side actions, including killing him. But it sounds super cheap. Esp killing your force soulmate? Then luke just encourages her to fight palpatine, giving her leia's saber.

I didn't search the rest but idk where this resurrection skill comes from out of nowhere. And it puts little meaning in the resurrection. Usually they come from a place of love, not hate/remorse?

@rey09

I think I can help. The resurrection idea came from 4chan leak where Kylo is resurrected after the final battle with Palpy. Here: https://archive.4plebs.org/tv/thread/119407355/

ATAT supports the idea of Kylo being resurrected because he heard his sources told him that they're going to resurrect Kylo after the final battle, he already created a youtube video about it. After that, JW also made a podcast in which he speculated that Kylo wouldn't stay dead and he probably would be revived. Reddit users suspect that JW is stalking the other leakers just like what he did in PT era and is also collecting reddit users' speculation for TROS to put in his podcasts.

JW and JP already discarded the whole idea of possessed!Matt Smith and possessed!Kylo, they also said Matt Smith won't play a significant role, but the theaters is having this promo banner for TROS after the trailer came out


which means that Matt Smith will show up in TROS. We just don't know what role he plays.


I agree with you that the concept of resurrection is a kind of divine, it usually happens at the climax moment of the film to represent love, benevolence, etc. Tbh, the idea of Rey resurrects Kylo after she stabs him to death in act 2 does sound really spiteful, and a little bit of anti-climax. I think it could happen if JJ wants to ...subvert expectation because most fans who aren't anti-Kylo think Rey will resurrect Kylo after they defeat Palpy. It's just a common fairy tale trope of Disney films.

The thing with Rey stabbing Kylo isn't so much that I find the scene impossible to imagine, but that I REALLY can't imagine giving Rey this new power for her to only use it to heal a monster (which doesn't count because it's the introduction) and then to heal Kylo after nearly killing him. This is the kind of deus ex machina power that you introduce to use in the climax, not in some rando mid-movie confrontation. So she heals him after doing something terrible to him and then he just...goes down a pit later? We don't see Rey use her healing powers in any of the climax (and using it only on herself likely won't happen, it's not heroic enough)? Seems very strange.

Oh, @OrionStars I just saw that you posted pretty much the same thing, sorry!

ZioRen wrote:The thing with Rey stabbing Kylo isn't so much that I find the scene impossible to imagine, but that I REALLY can't imagine giving Rey this new power for her to only use it to heal a monster (which doesn't count because it's the introduction) and then to heal Kylo after nearly killing him. This is the kind of deus ex machina power that you introduce to use in the climax, not in some rando mid-movie confrontation. So she heals him after doing something terrible to him and then he just...goes down a pit later? We don't see Rey use her healing powers in any of the climax (and using it only on herself likely won't happen, it's not heroic enough)? Seems very strange.

Oh, @OrionStars I just saw that you posted pretty much the same thing, sorry!

@ZioRen

This. I’m struggling to wrap my head around this too. Chekov’s Gun pretty much indicates that it has to come into use in the climax. Kylo just falling into a pit never to be seen again (lol) is just so bizarre. The fact the leaks don’t mention anything about a body or a funeral or whatever is really circumspect, because it points to an absence of information. Having Rey resurrect him on screen could be a very very emotional, dramatic and powerful scenario and it seems odd to pass it up.

Another thing I don’t get: Why are Rey and Kylo fighting so much? Even if it was a straightforward villain/hero dynamic it just seems extremely overkill.

@OrionStars and @Zioren totally agree. I think most of us are for resurrection but it only makes sense at the emotional climax end. The placement in that scene is random, just makes no sense...Because in the leaks it says she runs away - she feels bad about being consumed by the dark side, so much so she wants to self-exile. So how in the world in that moment she kills him she is one second all darkness and then next all second lightness and reviving him? That kind of power cannot be used so lightly... It's massive fluctuation in character.

I also think if Matt Smith is in the movie, he will play a young palps after he has taken their powers. It mentions he becomes young again. It would make sense for why they are so hushed about it because it's a money shot.

ZioRen wrote:The thing with Rey stabbing Kylo isn't so much that I find the scene impossible to imagine, but that I REALLY can't imagine giving Rey this new power for her to only use it to heal a monster (which doesn't count because it's the introduction) and then to heal Kylo after nearly killing him. This is the kind of deus ex machina power that you introduce to use in the climax, not in some rando mid-movie confrontation. So she heals him after doing something terrible to him and then he just...goes down a pit later? We don't see Rey use her healing powers in any of the climax? Seems very strange.

Oh, @OrionStars I just saw that you posted pretty much the same thing, sorry!

@ZioRen

Maybe that's what is out of order and confusing for whoever leaked this. Maybe after Exogol she realizes he's been on the Death Star the whole time and she goes back and finds his body *there* (ie. not in the pit). And *that's* when the resurrection occurs. It's plausible if the source doesn't realize it's two separate times on the Death Star.

Funnily enough, the "resurrection" is described as literally the most truncated thing ever. It's literally like, "She stabs him, tells him she'll never be like him, and then quickly heals him" lol. Perhaps this part is a third-hand transmission and they haven't actually seen it.

@nickandnora Yes, it's obvious that the source or the leaker don't know how Ben "arrives" on Exogol. Because that "Ben abandoned his lightsaber AND decided to go after Palpatine without it" is like... Hello? Are there any brain cells in Ben's head? Okay, let it be, but even the time is strange here. How long Ben was turning to the Light Side on DS when meanwhile Rey 1) flied to Porg planet 2) talked to Luke 3) flied again to Exogol. There is certainly some critical details missed here and the source can't understand the chronology or confused because of Force Bond.