Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

@reylo1992 Seems like Mary Sue term did a great damage to conversation because it's sexist term. After TPM fans were furious that Anakin didn't come from some noble 1000 year Jedi house. There were like million theories about that and how Anakin can be so powerful. And a lot of people certainty weren't satisfied with just prophecy or Shmi explaining everything in ONE line. Not to say that a slave background was criticized and there were hopes that it will be retconed in connection to Palpatine or "upgraded" to Padme's level.

Again.. being of Virgin birth means you are a demi god.. NO OTHER EXPLANATION NEEDED for Anakin's powers it makes him space Jesus..
It doesn't matter that he was a "poor slave" and as someone who is an OG fan from 77 I never heard of anyone complaining about Anakin's origin other than that it made him space jesus.

Parthenogenesis

@special_cases Yeah, I think it's one of the reason that made Daisy so protective of her character. She seemed pretty upset with people attacking Rey with that term.

@giaciak2 Based on Daisy's interview, it seems like there will be a lot of twists. I had thought about that theory a long time ago. The Mortis episodes were the reasons why I always stood to the idea that Disney/Lucasfilm had to be very careful with handling the prophecy of the Chosen One since Georges Lucas made  Anakin the Chosen One and the Father recognized him as the Chosen One when he was able to control both the Daughter and the Son at the same time:

Now, the issue I have with Rey and Kylo being the reincarnations of the Daughter and the Son is that it completely invalidates all the romantic/sexual subtext that was purposedly put into the movies. The only one who survived to some degree was the Daughter since her remaining life energy was passed to Ahsoka through Anakin. So why not having a scenario where the energy of the Daughter was passed to someone else when Ahsoka died providing that Ahsoka is indeed dead during the events of the ST. We indeed have Rey described as this young woman gifted with the power of the Force and intrinsically good. However, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is described as "the focal point between light and dark", which screams more Chosen One than Darkness. I would rather see the Big Bad being the reincarnation of the Son and the one pulling strings from the beginning to avoid the balance. After all, it's the Son who predicted his future to Anakin. Maybe he found the way to survive and was behind all of this from the beginning if that goes in that direction. However, that's not the kind of scenario I have the most in mind :

Adam Driver... NO REDEMPTION NECESSARY.. should be the name of the movie..  

Are they trolling?

Adam said this?

“[Kylo Ren] has a different identity, a different definition of what redemption is,” Driver says. “He’s already been redeemed in his story. I don’t think there is a thought of redemption. He doesn’t have an outside lens of the events, you know — you know what I mean? That’s more of an outsider’s view of his world.”

I get why Daisy is so protective of Rey. It's like people think she's entirely worthless and pointless if she doesn't have such and such a parentage. Even though that would hinge her purpose and identity on other people who are far less central in the ST. She herself would not the person of interest, despite being the main character. Unlike Kylo, she doesn't have 6 preceding movies of family backstory (and 6 seasons of a TV show) to have it make sense and fit within the narrative.

And no, she's not just Kylo's love interest (even if she's that also). I don't understand why the idea that the only things that could give Rey a story or character arc are her parents and a romantic ship. Are these really the only options? One of them they're not doing, the other they are, but are there no more possibilities for her?

I've seen people mention that heroine's journeys tend to be more internal. Like even if Rey is no one, that doesn't invalidate the conflict of her abandonment issues, finding her place in the world, and lifetime of poverty caused by her being "no one". It's just that conflict manifests itself in different ways, which is rather difficult to do in a visual medium like film. And it's not the kind of struggle we often see in big blockbuster films, I think this is where some of the audience's confusion lies.

She said there's an explanation for Rey's powers, that doesn't have to mean her heritage. I brought this up I think just last week, but I could see them doing the yin-yang balance/embodiment of the force/Prime Jedi thing. Her powers don't come from Kylo, I remember Jason Fry explaining this, but they do have whatever weird force bond, he got things out of her head too.

Also, lol to Adam saying Kylo doesn't even NEED redemption.

@spacebaby45678 I'm not justifying takes from PT or this era, I'm saying that fans were complaining/unsatisfied about parentage reveals and "source of power" explanation even before Rey character existed. Slave boy Anni from Immaculate Conception WASN'T accepted and angry horny teenager Anni was despised. Nothing new here. It's not only because Rey is woman while there is undoubtedly also sexism aspect.

Gemini wrote:Are they trolling?

Adam said this?

“[Kylo Ren] has a different identity, a different definition of what redemption is,” Driver says. “He’s already been redeemed in his story. I don’t think there is a thought of redemption. He doesn’t have an outside lens of the events, you know — you know what I mean? That’s more of an outsider’s view of his world.”

@Gemini

Not trolling, just a genuine answer tackling the meaning of redemption to Kylo within universe vs. out of universe. Kylo's story isn't about purposefully redeeming himself for the sake of seeking forgiveness, it's about evolving and realizing what he believed in was wrong and he was running away from painful memories. Obviously from an outside perspective on the story we see that as redemption, but Kylo doesn't. He's just doing what he feels is right, for good or ill.  He always has been.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ahh ok. Kylo tunnel vision?

Ok I'm gonna calm down.

Gemini wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Ahh ok. Kylo tunnel vision?

@Gemini
No, I wouldn't even call it that. He's identifying how the character sees himself within the universe of the story. "Redemption" is how the audience would see a heel-face-turn, but that's not how Kylo sees it.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Ahh ok. Kylo tunnel vision?

@Gemini
No, I wouldn't even call it that. He's identifying how the character sees himself within the universe of the story. "Redemption" is how the audience would see a heel-face-turn, but that's not how Kylo sees it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ah ok. I hope that's it.

As was said, I just want the movie now. I may stop reading articles etc.

special_cases wrote:@spacebaby45678 I'm not justifying takes from PT or this era, I'm saying that fans were complaining/unsatisfied about parentage reveals and "source of power" explanation even before Rey character existed. Slave boy Anni from Immaculate Conception WASN'T accepted and angry horny teenager Anni was despised. Nothing new here. It's not only because Rey is woman while there is undoubtedly also sexism aspect.

@special_cases

Yes I agree with you.. as a fan.. who waiting on premiere day for 6 hours to see TPM... that movie deeply disappointed me.. The CGI was horrible.. and Anakins virgin birth was a huge SIDE EYE for me.. IN REAL TIME.. so I get it.

But.. LF has went fro out of this world demi god explanations to NO EXPLANATION with Rey... that is not how you right the ship.. the only origin story done perfectly was Luke's

Now.. I have come to accept this idea of Virgin Birth for Anakin.. because my understanding of where George is coming mythologically has deepened.

Gemini wrote:Are they trolling?

Adam said this?

“[Kylo Ren] has a different identity, a different definition of what redemption is,” Driver says. “He’s already been redeemed in his story. I don’t think there is a thought of redemption. He doesn’t have an outside lens of the events, you know — you know what I mean? That’s more of an outsider’s view of his world.”

@Gemini

He reads/sounds like me and other Reylos that can be troll bratty times, when we tweet:

Kylo Ren did nothing wrong Kylo Ren uwu Ben Solo uwu

Love it!

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:Are they trolling?

Adam said this?

“[Kylo Ren] has a different identity, a different definition of what redemption is,” Driver says. “He’s already been redeemed in his story. I don’t think there is a thought of redemption. He doesn’t have an outside lens of the events, you know — you know what I mean? That’s more of an outsider’s view of his world.”

@Gemini

Not trolling, just a genuine answer tackling the meaning of redemption to Kylo within universe vs. out of universe. Kylo's story isn't about purposefully redeeming himself for the sake of seeking forgiveness, it's about evolving and realizing what he believed in was wrong and he was running away from painful memories. Obviously from a outside perspective on the story we see that as redemption, but Kylo doesn't. He's just doing what he feels is right, for good or ill. He always has been.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Obviously I'm just going to have a tendency to see things the way I want to see them, but I wonder a bit about this because of my hypothesis that Kylo does a lot of his changing in the year in between the two films (therefore when he goes to see Palpatine, his motivation for whatever comes afterwards isn't going to be the obvious one). Goes along with Adam alluding to the fact that Kylo's journey has changed (presumably at the start of the film) even though it's not explicitly spelled out.

Gemini wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Ahh ok. Kylo tunnel vision?

@Gemini
No, I wouldn't even call it that. He's identifying how the character sees himself within the universe of the story. "Redemption" is how the audience would see a heel-face-turn, but that's not how Kylo sees it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ah ok. I hope that's it.

As was said, I just want the movie now. I may stop reading articles etc.

@Gemini
I mean, if you were confused/concerned by something like this then a break might be good. I really don't know how one could take this in any other light, however. Characters don't have fan POVs with strict binaries of good and bad and that's what Adam is going into; Kylo doesn't even see himself as being "evil". He's always trying to do what he feels is right and what will bring him satisfaction (and distraction). He doesn't need to be redeemed; in his eyes, he isn't the bad guy. He needs to understand who he wants to be in life, and he isn't finding that where he is right now.

@gemini

I don't think you are confused at all. When every other hashtag is about Bendemption

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Ahh ok. Kylo tunnel vision?

@Gemini
No, I wouldn't even call it that. He's identifying how the character sees himself within the universe of the story. "Redemption" is how the audience would see a heel-face-turn, but that's not how Kylo sees it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ah ok. I hope that's it.

As was said, I just want the movie now. I may stop reading articles etc.

@Gemini
I mean, if you were confused/concerned by something like this then a break might be good. I really don't know how one could take this in any other light, however. Characters don't have fan POVs with strict binaries of good and bad and that's what Adam is going into; Kylo doesn't even see himself as being "evil". He's always trying to do what he feels is right and what will bring him satisfaction (and distraction). He doesn't need to be redeemed; in his eyes, he isn't the bad guy. He needs to understand who he wants to be in life, and he isn't finding that where he is right now.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I dont think theres much wrong with people interpreting things differently to one another. The only way we will know what he  means for sure is if he clarifies or we see the movie. Thats why I wanted a breather, not because I got upset.

Driver is talking about diegesis vs. external interpretation. In the diegetic world (the narrative and its internal factors), the character is not actively thinking of themes like 'redemption' or 'evilness'. He simply exists in that universe and he's not bound by real life rules because he is not real. 'Redemption' is an external factor, associated with audiences and authors, real people who create and consume the product and, in the process, attach meaning to it.

Basically, he's literally saying nothing other than "yeah audiences think about redemption".

I think we should be careful with written interview because journalists tend to twist words. The title of the article is meant to be controversial for clickbaits. As I understand, Adam indeed explained things from the character's POV. That also seems to confirm that they chose not to go the easy road with his character's journey.

I also find Adam's words interesting because I've been wondering for awhile if what we're getting isn't a "redemption" arc, it's a "revealing and understanding Kylo Ren" arc. If the nuances of Kylo and his actions haven't been thus far been understood (I'm thinking of the clues about the Jedi temple night in the comics, for instance), then the story is far different than a straightforward redemption story. It's kind of like Snape in Harry Potter.

Imo its for the better because Kylo finally helps Rey and even saves her because he is genuinely finally understanding that this is the right way and he feels it 100%. Not because he is searching for some kind of redemption in eyes of Rey or someone else. This is what makes it selfless.

About the decision to bring Kylo's helmet back:

J.J.: “Part of it is about his commitment to the Dark Side. As you’ll see, he’s becoming Supreme Leader…his focus has been a little bit more on practical matters. He’s assumed that position within the First Order. It represents his re-committing to the Dark Side, to the Knights of Ren,and then because of a very specific thing that he’s about to go do. As you see in the story, there’s a reason for it. It might not be clear at this moment”

Adam: “Hopefully [in The Rise of Skywalker], there’s a good moment where you really see him. Maybe, I hope. We were talking to people before about masks and that’s such a huge iconography of Star Wars that we took for granted that we had to reimagine. What is it about someone who hides himself? Or presents a person to the world, but underneath is something different. Maybe there’s a moment in this [movie] that’s surprising.”  





https://collider.com/kylo-ren-helmet-rise-of-skywalker-explained-adam-driver-jj-abrams/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

EDIT:

That made me think to that quote from a previous interview about Princess Yuki in the Hidden Fortress:

"You have, also, the hidden identity of this princess who's hiding who she really is so she can survive and Kylo Ren and her hiding behind these artifices"

I for one have always hoped for ulterior motive Kylo as an explanation for everything he has done.. but the 3rd act of TLJ sunk that for me.. but we shall see

reylo1992 wrote:About the decision to bring Kylo's helmet back:

J.J.: “Part of it is about his commitment to the Dark Side. As you’ll see, he’s becoming Supreme Leader…his focus has been a little bit more on practical matters. He’s assumed that position within the First Order. It represents his re-committing to the Dark Side, to the Knights of Ren,and then because of a very specific thing that he’s about to go do. As you see in the story, there’s a reason for it. It might not be clear at this moment”

@reylo1992

I'm really curious what this specific reason is, especially when the leaks, if I remember correctly (I'm not reading that headache-inducing thing again) don't seem to shed any light on this either.

I have to admit....
I'm not as fond of Rey as I was at the beginning of the ST.
Nothing to do with Daisy bless her, it's probably due to the comics, I really find her a bit irritating in them.
Kylo has become my favourite SW character period. Even more than Han Solo. I really want to see TROS. But if it's confirmed he dies...
Don't think I'll be able to see it. I know as a woman I should be invested in Rey's character, but for me her relationship with Kylo isctge heart and soul of the ST. Rey as the Skywalker heir....
No, sorry. Just leaves me cold. Never mind.