Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Hmm... I just saw some Reywalkers on Twitter panicking about some Bloodline spoiler that apparently makes it likely that Rey is a random? Have you heard anything about it? The book obviously isn't released yet, but it's out with reviewers so somebody may have revealed something.

These people were not really saying anything, they were just panicking amongst themselves and saying "I'll DM you the details" to others who said "omg what has happened".

@Darth Dingbat I wish I knew!

Darth Dingbat wrote:Hmm... I just saw some Reywalkers on Twitter panicking about some Bloodline spoiler that apparently makes it likely that Rey is a random? Have you heard anything about it? The book obviously isn't released yet, but it's out with reviewers so somebody may have revealed something.

These people were not really saying anything, they were just panicking amongst themselves and saying "I'll DM you the details" to others who said "omg what has happened".

@Darth Dingbat


Bloodlines has nothing to do with Rey but they are panicking because it's going to show that Kylo's turn happened way after Rey's drop. When you compare their age - Rey was 5 when she was dumped and Kylo 15...well, he was older when he turned and when massacre happened which blows Reywalker's fave theory that Rey was dropped because of massacre. They can't get over that one.

vaderito wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:Hmm... I just saw some Reywalkers on Twitter panicking about some Bloodline spoiler that apparently makes it likely that Rey is a random? Have you heard anything about it? The book obviously isn't released yet, but it's out with reviewers so somebody may have revealed something.

These people were not really saying anything, they were just panicking amongst themselves and saying "I'll DM you the details" to others who said "omg what has happened".

@Darth Dingbat


Bloodlines has nothing to do with Rey but they are panicking because it's going to show that Kylo's turn happened way after Rey's drop. When you compare their age - Rey was 5 when she was dumped and Kylo 15...well, he was older when he turned and when massacre happened which blows Reywalker's fave theory that Rey was dropped because of massacre. They can't get over that one.

@vaderito

True, but I thought that info was old news. The way those people talked about it made it sound like something new that made it likely that Luke has no children. Well, could be it's just that. We shall see. I'm looking forward to Bloodline anyway.

(But I really, really hope the timeline doesn't turn out to be such a mess that Kylo is something like 24 when he turns.)

Based on timelines given approximately by PH and Bloodlines, he was 23-24.

vaderito wrote:Based on timelines given approximately by PH and Bloodlines, he was 23-24.

@vaderito

At the time he turned, or at the time of the Jedi slaughter? Because I'm not sure those even happened at the same time.

I have also read that some people already got their hands on Bloodlines. How can this be? Wasn't it supposed to come out on May 5th everywhere?

Him turning late is something that is probable - as mentioned by @vaderito - and is something that I have the feeling, we also kind of avoid to address. What would make him turn so late? The bullying scenario becomes a bit less believable. Although I could go for a late breakdown due to bullying, but I fear many people will not accept it and there needs to be another big event that pushed him to the Dark Side.

@AnneNeville:

Could be separate events but the question is what happens then between the 2 events? Were Han and Leia trying to get him back and then stopped when he destroyed the non-academy? If that is the case, then Bloodlines will have to spill that piece of information. And somehow I have the feeling we will not get that much information. Too early for that.

I know Pablo said Han and Leia separated when their son "became a murderer", but like @AnneNeville, I've been thinking this was something separate from Kylo's turning because there are many things in canon sources that make less sense if he was already in his mid-twenties when he turned. Like Han seeing his son's face for the first time as a grown man. Or the "boy" who destroyed it all. Or the whole thing about Snoke targeting Ben since he was born and Leia putting the blame for Ben's fall squarely on Snoke, which is a little less convincing if it turns out he was neither an adolescent nor in his late teens, but a grown man already.

And of course, the shooting schedule that has "young Kylo" "gone" from Luke and joining the Knights of Ren. Though of course it could be they made major last-minute changes to the backstory. The concept art does imply that the Jedi Killer was originally supposed to be very young indeed.

AnneNeville wrote:

vaderito wrote:Based on timelines given approximately by PH and Bloodlines, he was 23-24.

@vaderito

At the time he turned, or at the time of the Jedi slaughter? Because I'm not sure those even happened at the same time.

@AnneNeville
I always imagined that he turned years before returning to massacre the Temple. Hopefully Bloodline clarifies this at least vaguely.

So we would have 2 major events that need explaining.

What if he did not turn but joined the KOR and Snoke in his teenage years believing that they were more suited to his force pattern? Then Snoke would have had the opportunity to really groom him for a few years and turn him. Then the massacre would be the test of allegiance.

Other scenario a bit over-the-top:
What if Luke sent him with Snoke because he realized he could not, as his uncle, stream Kylo's mix of dark side/light side due to his own past? I think someone might have already mentioned this scenario but with Luke/Leia. Then you can imagine the guilt. They sent him right to his predator. Could be that Snoke was quite nasty with him. We'd get then a Stockholm syndrom.

Maybe we should take this to the public thread. But I will be out this evening - former colleague visiting - missing all the fun of the speculation :/

EDIT

A mix of both? Sneaky Snoke offers to take care of Ben and gets Luke and Leia's blessing. No, it does not work because Han would also know that Snoke was (partly) responsible and he seems to be surprised when Leia tells him that it was Snoke and not too much Vader in Ben. Forget it.

I guess I'm less worried about what turning late would mean for Kylo's redemption, and more worried about whether the story would be satisfying to me. Because I do worry if they made big changes to the backstory so late in the process.

If he turned as a grown-up, the reason does need to be something major to explain it. A boy who turns in his teens, after years of grooming, possibly even kidnapped (which is a possible interpretation of the shooting schedule), and then returns as a brainwashed adult would make sense even without some other big twist behind it.

But if he turns as an adult... what, then? What was the trigger? Was he framed? Is he a double agent? Does he resist Snoke's grooming for all his childhood and youth, and then suddenly just snaps for no specific reason at all? Are some of the [redact] folks correct that he had a wife and children already, and his turn was triggered by losing her?

Like, what is it? We're not going to find out any major twists in Bloodline, that's for sure, but if Kylo does turn in his 20s, that suddenly demands a lot more from the overall story for it to be satisfying, convincing and hopefully hole-free, and I confess I'm a bit worried about that.

A wife and children? That would kill the character for me. I don't see him as an adult at all. And finding a wife with Snoke watching him? Makes no sense. You were joking, right?

I did think about the kidnapping too. But Han's line of acceptance "he has too much Vader in him" does make it sound like Ben went off voluntarily - I hope because otherwise Han looks like an a**

SanghaRen wrote:A wife and children? That would kill the character for me. I don't see him as an adult at all. And finding a wife with Snoke watching him? Makes no sense. You were joking, right?

I did think about the kidnapping too. But Han's line of acceptance "he has too much Vader in him" does make it sound like Ben went off voluntarily - I hope because otherwise Han looks like an a**

@SanghaRen

I was joking But alas, I don't think the people on [redact] were... (You know, it's been suggested by several different people that maybe Kylo has children already - that way the Skywalker line would continue without Reylo happening!)

But yes, it would kill the character for me too. Or at least it would kill Reylo - the beautiful thing about it is that it feels so fated and unique and fairytale-like.

Good point about Han. I don't know what to think about all this, tbh. I just hope that the explanation is satisfying, whatever it is. Even something pro-Kylo like a double agent reveal (which might be implied by the Resistance logo on his shoulder in the poster) can turn out to be "meh" and spoil the impact of the character if it's not executed well enough.

What I mean is, I'm not opposed to the idea of Kylo being a double agent or something - after all, I've often said that I would prefer it if Kylo's goals were originally good but he got lost along the way.

But if it suddenly turns out that Kylo only became a double agent in his mid-20s, it can easily feel like the backstory of his troubled childhood, his implied lost youth and being groomed by Snoke is a bit pointless.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Hmm... I just saw some Reywalkers on Twitter panicking about some Bloodline spoiler that apparently makes it likely that Rey is a random? Have you heard anything about it? The book obviously isn't released yet, but it's out with reviewers so somebody may have revealed something.

These people were not really saying anything, they were just panicking amongst themselves and saying "I'll DM you the details" to others who said "omg what has happened".

@Darth Dingbat
I'm positive that the Bloodline "spoiler" they're talking about is that the massacre and Rey's abandonment happened years apart. Rey had already been on Jakku for 7-8 years when Bloodlines takes place, making her about 13. Of course this is something that was revealed by Pablo months back, but I guess this is the "official" confirmation. If the Reywalker's really have been ignoring all of Pablo's Tweets up until this point they might not have known at all. They're in for quite the shock when they see that all their Luke/Ben/Skymom abandoned Rey after the massacre theories are invalidated by the canon timeline.

Right now, it seems like this is the timeline:

> Rey is abandoned at age 5 (15 years before The Force Awakens)
> Massacre happens when Kylo is 23 (6 years before The Force Awakens)

I'm more curious to find out if Han and Leia are still together in Bloodlines, because that changes everything. If they aren't, it means Ben became a murderer before the massacre. I know Han doesn't actually appear with Leia in the book, but apparently Leia calls him and tells him that her attempts to contact Luke and Ben have been failing. This tells me the massacre has just occurred or is about to occur, and Luke attempted to fix it on his own without telling Han or his sister. I wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with Leia and Han finding out what happened.

I don't think it's unlikely that he fell (that the massacre happened) when he was 23. I know the script makes it clear that Han is looking upon his son as a man for the first time... but how much can we assume Han really visited him? They had some kind of rough falling out when he was younger. It's entirely possible that Ben was just with Luke after a certain point and didn't see his father again until the catwalk at age 29.

Han and Leia being together/not together in Bloodlines will give us the answer we need. Did Ben become a murderer before the massacre or was the massacre the even that made him a murderer?

Oh Lawd, I can't wait til Bloodlines! What do we have left, two weeks?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:Hmm... I just saw some Reywalkers on Twitter panicking about some Bloodline spoiler that apparently makes it likely that Rey is a random? Have you heard anything about it? The book obviously isn't released yet, but it's out with reviewers so somebody may have revealed something.

These people were not really saying anything, they were just panicking amongst themselves and saying "I'll DM you the details" to others who said "omg what has happened".

@Darth Dingbat
I'm positive that the Bloodline "spoiler" they're talking about is that the massacre and Rey's abandonment happened years apart. Rey had already been on Jakku for 7-8 years when Bloodlines takes place, making her about 13. Of course this is something that was revealed by Pablo months back, but I guess this is the "official" confirmation. If the Reywalker's really have been ignoring all of Pablo's Tweets up until this point they might not have known at all. They're in for quite the shock when they see that all their Luke/Ben/Skymom abandoned Rey after the massacre theories are invalidated by the canon timeline.

Right now, it seems like this is the timeline:

> Rey is abandoned at age 5 (15 years before The Force Awakens)
> Massacre happens when Kylo is 23 (6 years before The Force Awakens)

I'm more curious to find out if Han and Leia are still together in Bloodlines, because that changes everything. If they aren't, it means Ben became a murderer before the massacre. I know Han doesn't actually appear with Leia in the book, but apparently Leia calls him and tells him that her attempts to contact Luke and Ben have been failing. This tells me the massacre has just occurred or is about to occur, and Luke attempted to fix it on his own without telling Han or his sister. I wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with Leia and Han finding out what happened.

I don't think it's unlikely that he fell (that the massacre happened) when he was 23. I know the script makes it clear that Han is looking upon his son as a man for the first time... but how much can we assume Han really visited him? They had some kind of rough falling out when he was younger. It's entirely possible that Ben was just with Luke after a certain point and didn't see his father again until the catwalk at age 29.

Han and Leia being together/not together in Bloodlines will give us the answer we need. Did Ben become a murderer before the massacre or was the massacre the even that made him a murderer?

@FrolickingFizzgig

As far as I heard (or was it an interview with the writer or some early bits publicly presented I am positive they are still together.
It was said something like that: It is most about Leia the politician, but there are some cute moments between her and Han.
Sorry for not being muchprecise it was a couple of months ago.

Some people over at the [redact] had gotten early copies of Bloodline and one of them posted some vague spoilers:



BRIEF reappearance of a major group that was pretty prominent in post ROTJ legends, but hinting at their similar nature

Exact timeline of things may not be what you'd expect.

Analogs of modern US politics

Clerks.



This really is essentially going to be the Cloak of Deception for the sequel trilogy (which coincidentally I started reading two days ago) but at this point I'm still not sure just how much they're going to unravel as far as back story for anything besides Leia departing the New Republic.

So, like, don't get your hopes too high for anything like too much Ben back story. Just a bit of vague timeline shuffling. I should finish up tomorrow.

There will be a breakout lit character from this

There is a character from Lost Stars (which I may be compelled to finally read after this), and another possible LGBT character (at least thats how I'm reading him/her)


You'll get a bit of both. (in response to someone asking whether Ben and Han will appear)

Someone over there said Han and Leia were together when Ben went coo coo. The link they gave was ridiculous though

Edit: sorry i meant they were still together in the book

I didn't expect Bloodlines to feature much Ben story. That's one of movie's big mysteries and money shots (how are they going to do it?) so don't expect any tie-ins to spoil it. They'll milk it in other media after the reveal.

That said, looking forward to the book because it'll show Leia's life as a politician so we can get some idea about the rest.

Little_Boots wrote:Someone over there said Han and Leia were together when Ben went coo coo. The link they gave was ridiculous though

Edit: sorry i meant they were still together in the book

@Little_Boots
If they were still together that means Ben "became a murderer" during the massacre, which seems to have happened when he was 23 and training with Luke full-time. I think it's entirely possible Han hadn't seen his son in years, especially if he and Leia were really as busy as JJ seemed to insinuate. Ben and Luke were doing their own thing when everything went sour. Something happened that caused Ben to finally give in to Snoke after all those years... 20+ years. Nobody can tell me this boy was "bad all along", not when he fought that long.

And he's still fighting.



"You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force".

It would be fun to see little Ben Solo with Chewie sneaking onto the millenium falcon as little Ben struggles to sit up in the seat high enough, being a hooligan lol flying the falcon. That would be super cute but its never gonna happen. xD

BastilaBey wrote:@cienaree I was thinking Nash too, and I would love to have him and Leia somehow talk about Alderaan! One thing that really bothered me about ANH was that Leia never really got to mourn the planet being destroyed along with Bail and Breha. That always seemed weirdly unrealistic and it would be really emotional to get some of her thoughts even decades down the line. I love Ciena for the same reasons, she and Thane were both presented as very nuanced, emotionally conflicted people. Claudia is a lovely writer and I have high hopes for Bloodline.

@BastilaBey

Honestly despite what an iconic character Leia is the OT didn't treat her that well.Her romance with Han was her best developed relationship but other than that we didn't see her talk about her family or the destruction of her home planet.They don't even have her deal with Vader bring her biological father.She got like only 5 minutes to cope with that information and the next scene we have her fighting and celebrating the fall of the Empire without any hint of how being Vader's daughter affected.The ST seem to be fixing those things by making Kylo the Skywalker heir who's worship Vader and in the novelization Leia mentions the destruction of Alderaan when sensing the destruction of the Hostiaan system.I think as a result of GL's last minute decision to make Leia Luke's sister she became too distant from her Skywalker heritage (not counting the EU that deals with that issue)because her character was treated as plan B in case Luke failed.which has led to these ridiculous accusations that she's not really a Skywalker.
I would really love to see  how's conversation between Leia and Nash would be.Influbd his transformation to Empire fanatic very tragic since it was a result of the destruction of Alderaan.I read in an interview that Claudia wanted to give Nash a surname that closely resembled Skywalker so she came up with Windrider.

Attention, this just in: from 'Bloodline'

SPOILER: