Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Very good points there - and I can't help but see a lot of that in Kylo; his devotion to the First Order is very similar to his mum's to the Rebellion - only where for Leia it was a vocation, for Kylo it's a desire to belong, I think.

Off topic, but I remember reading a couple of novels by Philippa Gregory, who wrote The Other Boleyn Girl; her take on Mary Tudor was fascinating and showed her as a terribly tragic and deeply misunderstood woman rather than a monster, while still acknowledging the horror of what she did.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Very good points there - and I can't help but see a lot of that in Kylo; his devotion to the First Order is very similar to his mum's to the Rebellion - only where for Leia it was a vocation, for Kylo it's a desire to belong, I think.

Off topic, but I remember reading a couple of novels by Philippa Gregory, who wrote The Other Boleyn Girl; her take on Mary Tudor was fascinating and showed her as a terribly tragic and deeply misunderstood woman rather than a monster, while still acknowledging the horror of what she did.

@motherofpearl1
I agree.I think Bloodline shows really well how Leia seems to be bored with her life and misses the days of the Rebellion where she had a much more active role.
If you're interested in more nuanced view of Mary I would reccomend watching The Tudors-Mar's really humanized and depcited as a deeply tragic figure and  it's shown how the trageids of her life(being separated from her mother,her father's treatment towards her,being proclaimed as bastard),etc really formed her and why she would later become Bloody Mary.
John Edwards's biography of Mary is another good read about her life.It's sad she's been so demonized and less popular compared to her brother and sister when she was a very strong woman who faced trageyd after tragedy and is also the first Queen Regnant of England.
It kind of reminds me of antis treatment towards Kylo.

Do you know that's what I thought!!
Mary's history and her subsequent attitude as Queen is eerily similar to that of Kylo Ren, makes one wonder if someone somewhere has seen the Tudors.

I also think Kathy Burke gave a brilliant portrayal as Mary in the movie 'Elizabeth'; although she had limited screentime.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Do you know that's what I thought!!
Mary's history and her subsequent attitude as Queen is eerily similar to that of Kylo Ren, makes one wonder if someone somewhere has seen the Tudors.

I also think Kathy Burke gave a brilliant portrayal as Mary in the movie 'Elizabeth'; although she had limited screentime.

@motherofpearl1
There are deffinatly similarities between Mary and Kylo(their abandonment issues,fanatical beliefs,devition to God/Vader,their belief that it's their right to rule Englad/the Galaxy) and how people view them.This is from John Edward's biography of her:

''Mary still had a bad reputation centuries after the conflicts and controversies in which she engaged.As late as 1977,Geoffrey Elton though it just and appropriate to sum her up as 'arrogant,aasertive,bigoted,stubborn and suspicious,rather stupid,...devoid of political skills,unable to compromise,set onlybon the wholesale reversal of a generation's history.''
''..she was born to sovereignty and,asthe events of 1533 showed she firmly believed that it was her destiny to rule.Her notions of status and power were as exalted as those of her father...her own primary concern was to govern her kingdom as effectively and successfuly for God and for her people...''
'Mary evidently took the patronage and support of her namesake,Mary the mother of Jesus,extremly seriously,and it is possible,in some respects,to' map' her life on the hymn,or canticle which the evangelist Luke records as the biblical response to the Archangel Gabriel's annoubcement that she would bear God's son.'
''She believed that God had looked with favour and lowliness on His servant,when He ended the years of faith and devotion which she had lived through,while she was so often excluded from the court and power between 1536 and 1553.In particular,she believed that the Duke of Northumberland and the Greys,and Thomas Cranmer and his allies and successors in the Church were those who had been lifted by God,and that she was the 'lowly' one who had been 'lifted up' by God,to the English throne.Finally in yerms of Mary's Magnificat,she was convinced that her restored,Catholic England was the 'Israel',whom God promised to help.''

It's really interesting and fun to see Kylo's similarities with RL monarchs.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

The tragedy of Ben is he had parents who didn't understand him. They loved him, but failed to see how desperately he needed them to be there for him. The lack of understanding, not love, is what led to his downfall. They both needed to get their heads out of the sand and truly 'look' at their son more. A parent must put their child first - not their own pleasures, not even the needs of a galaxy. They had to choose. And they didn't choose their child. :no:

@motherofpearl1

That's another thing which occurred to me while reading Bloodline, the slow moving tragedy of Leia feeling the call to action (in part because of her restlessness) because she can see the edges of the First Order coming together. Meanwhile she has no idea that the same danger is gathering around her only child.

Other thought I've had is what if the Very Bad Things happened (or if being reckless he did get in the middle of some military action on behalf of his mother and got captured) and his family didn't come after him/considered him collateral damage? Because the biggest thing for Han and Leia's relationship is that he put his a** on the line for her at Hoth/Bespin and she came to rescue him/killed Jabba. Like that's probably the story which got talked up in their household during his childhood. And if they'd not come after him if he'd been kidnapped/captured, that's enough for Han to feel guilty about and hope that Ben eventually forgives him.

snufkin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

The tragedy of Ben is he had parents who didn't understand him. They loved him, but failed to see how desperately he needed them to be there for him. The lack of understanding, not love, is what led to his downfall. They both needed to get their heads out of the sand and truly 'look' at their son more. A parent must put their child first - not their own pleasures, not even the needs of a galaxy. They had to choose. And they didn't choose their child.

@motherofpearl1

That's another thing which occurred to me while reading Bloodline, the slow moving tragedy of Leia feeling the call to action (in part because of her restlessness) because she can see the edges of the First Order coming together. Meanwhile she has no idea that the same danger is gathering around her only child.

Other thought I've had is what if the Very Bad Things happened (or if being reckless he did get in the middle of some military action on behalf of his mother and got captured) and his family didn't come after him/considered him collateral damage? Because the biggest thing for Han and Leia's relationship is that he put his a** on the line for her at Hoth/Bespin and she came to rescue him/killed Jabba. Like that's probably the story which got talked up in their household during his childhood. And if they'd not come after him if he'd been kidnapped/captured, that's enough for Han to feel guilty about and hope that Ben eventually forgives him.

@snufkin

All of this! They always saved each other and if they didn't him, it would be profoundly devastating, confirming every doubt and every insecurity he ever had about their love for him, and just leaving him completely unmoored and ripe for Snoke's picking.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin

All of this! They always saved each other and if they didn't him, it would be profoundly devastating, confirming every doubt and every insecurity he ever had about their love for him, and just leaving him completely unmoored and ripe for Snoke's picking.

@SoloSideCousin

Even if it's not the cut and dried scenario where he was captured and nobody came to rescue him, he has to have had that nagging feeling given that's the backstory of that marriage and meanwhile he's floundering and not feeling supported/important to the adults in his life. My bet is that whatever story they've come up with, there's some pretty big failures on the part of the adults who were supposed to be raising/guiding him. He can still have made bad decisions thanks to being reckless, entitled, and immature. But it's likely not going to be the "awful space brat of perfect hero parents" scenario most parts of the Internet have decided it's going to be.

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin

All of this! They always saved each other and if they didn't him, it would be profoundly devastating, confirming every doubt and every insecurity he ever had about their love for him, and just leaving him completely unmoored and ripe for Snoke's picking.

@SoloSideCousin

Even if it's not the cut and dried scenario where he was captured and nobody came to rescue him, he has to have had that nagging feeling given that's the backstory of that marriage and meanwhile he's floundering and not feeling supported/important to the adults in his life. My bet is that whatever story they've come up with, there's some pretty big failures on the part of the adults who were supposed to be raising/guiding him. He can still have made bad decisions thanks to being reckless, entitled, and immature. But it's likely not going to be the "awful space brat of perfect hero parents" scenario most parts of the Internet have decided it's going to be.

@snufkin

I agree. It probably won't be so cut and dried, but I think that if those new books are any indication, he at the very least will not feel like he is in their "inner circle" of the Big OT 3. They had absolute trust and belief in each other. I have a feeling with things like the "too much Vader" comments and his apparent prodigy-like (and probably scary to Han and Leia) abilities that such absolute trust was never extended to him and he knew it.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

@snufkin

I agree.  It probably won't be so cut and dried, but I think that if those new books are any indication, he at the very least will not feel like he is in their "inner circle" of the Big OT 3.  They had absolute trust and belief in each other.  I have a feeling with things like the "too much Vader" comments and his apparent prodigy-like (and probably scary to Han and Leia) abilities that such absolute trust was never extended to him and he knew it.

@SoloSideCousin

There've been enough hints that despite all of the warm maternal feelings Leia is shown to have for him both as an expectant mother and thinking of him as both a child and young man he likely did feel like he was kept at arms length. Like others have said, it's really telling how often Grey writes an internal monologue for her of "Leia looks at [fill in the blank young person character] and is reminded of Ben." If she's thinking so much of her kid, why isn't he just there with her, working for her? You'd guess if that were the case, it would've been harder for Snoke to manipulate him. Something happened to turn them into the space version of Ordinary People.

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

@snufkin

I agree.  It probably won't be so cut and dried, but I think that if those new books are any indication, he at the very least will not feel like he is in their "inner circle" of the Big OT 3.  They had absolute trust and belief in each other.  I have a feeling with things like the "too much Vader" comments and his apparent prodigy-like (and probably scary to Han and Leia) abilities that such absolute trust was never extended to him and he knew it.

@SoloSideCousin

There've been enough hints that despite all of the warm maternal feelings Leia is shown to have for him both as an expectant mother and thinking of him as both a child and young man he likely did feel like he was kept at arms length. Like others have said, it's really telling how often Grey writes an internal monologue for her of "Leia looks at [fill in the blank young person character] and is reminded of Ben." If she's thinking so much of her kid, why isn't he just there with her, working for her? You'd guess if that were the case, it would've been harder for Snoke to manipulate him. Something happened to turn them into the space version of Ordinary People.

@snufkin

YES! All this!!! And your example of Ordinary People is just spot on. That is one of my favorite movies of all time. And actually it is one of Adam Driver's favorite movies as well. Apparently, it resonates with his own life. And thinking of what he said in the TFA documentary about how he had to dig into personal history to play Kylo/Ben and how he said that Ben felt alone and without guidance when he was growing up, I would be surprised if Ordinary People and Timothy Hutton/"Connie" hadn't come into his mind when building the character.

I've never thought about it until now, but it's like Leia is like Donald Sutherland; loving, but distracted and clueless about her son until events force her to face the reality that she has been blind to a lot of things; while Han, though proven to be much more in touch with his feelings than Mary Tyler Moore's severely emotionally detached character "Beth", does have that "Beth" aspect in that he seems to have written him off and has denied any responsibility whatsoever for his son's actions ("There was nothing that we could have done. There was just too much Vader in him"). Thankfully, he is shown to be different than "Beth" because when Leia opens his eyes ("It was Snoke") all his feelings for his son do seem to immediately break out of wherever he has buried them, whereas Beth just shuts down more, but the Ordinary People comparison is a good one because it really does seem like Han and Leia were living parallel lives with their only child where it seemed to be okay that just didn't see him in the flesh for possibly years at a time. I mean even if Ben had a full psychotic dark side episode at the age of 10, 12 or 14 and was shipped off to Luke (and I don't think that necessarily happened because Leia does seem overwhelmingly positive about Ben in Bloodline), that is really no reason for the level of detachment that seems to be happening here. Leia and Han got money. They've got good, fast ships. They couldn't visit him once a quarter at Uncle Luke's Nomadic Charter School for the Force Sensitive? People visit their murderer kids in prison .... Unless ... Luke sold them on the "no attachments" Jedi bill of goods and told them that Ben couldn't have too many visits or he'd get attached and be more vulnerable to the dark side? Go Clueless Jedi Council dogma again!

Princess = uptight WASP, so the analogy probably fits. Especially because if you figure ESB starts 3 years after the original movie - that's 3 years' of Han hanging around the Rebellion being romantically and sexually frustrated because Leia won't admit that the feelings are mutual. He's more emotionally open than she is. Given their class differences, when it came down to being married and raising a child, he probably deferred to her because she had parents and had a more formal/proper upbringing.

If there was no contact for extended periods of time, that would play into feeling alone. It's really hard on somebody, especially when they're young and even if they are close with their family. I definitely didn't get the impression between the movie and this book that being sent off was voluntary on his part, the decision was made for him. And judging by the comment that Han is shocked to see his face as a grown man (and his shock seeing him leaving with Rey), it's been possibly more than 6 years' since they've seen each other.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

@snufkin

I agree.  It probably won't be so cut and dried, but I think that if those new books are any indication, he at the very least will not feel like he is in their "inner circle" of the Big OT 3.  They had absolute trust and belief in each other.  I have a feeling with things like the "too much Vader" comments and his apparent prodigy-like (and probably scary to Han and Leia) abilities that such absolute trust was never extended to him and he knew it.

@SoloSideCousin

There've been enough hints that despite all of the warm maternal feelings Leia is shown to have for him both as an expectant mother and thinking of him as both a child and young man he likely did feel like he was kept at arms length. Like others have said, it's really telling how often Grey writes an internal monologue for her of "Leia looks at [fill in the blank young person character] and is reminded of Ben." If she's thinking so much of her kid, why isn't he just there with her, working for her? You'd guess if that were the case, it would've been harder for Snoke to manipulate him. Something happened to turn them into the space version of Ordinary People.

@snufkin

YES! All this!!! And your example of Ordinary People is just spot on.  That is one of my favorite movies of all time.  And actually it is one of Adam Driver's favorite movies as well.  Apparently, it resonates with his own life.  And thinking of what he said in the TFA documentary about how he had to dig into personal history to play Kylo/Ben and how he said that Ben felt alone and without guidance when he was growing up, I would be surprised if Ordinary People and Timothy Hutton/"Connie" hadn't come into his mind when building the character.

I've never thought about it until now, but it's like Leia is like Donald Sutherland; loving, but distracted and clueless about her son until events force her to face the reality that she has been blind to a lot of things; while Han, though proven to be much more in touch with his feelings than Mary Tyler Moore's severely emotionally detached character "Beth", does have that  "Beth" aspect in that he seems to have written him off and has denied any responsibility whatsoever for his son's actions ("There was nothing that we could have done.  There was just too much Vader in him").  Thankfully, he is shown to be different than "Beth" because when Leia opens his eyes ("It was Snoke") all his feelings for his son do seem to immediately break out of wherever he has buried them, whereas Beth just shuts down more, but the Ordinary People comparison is a good one because it really does seem like Han and Leia were living parallel lives with their only child where it seemed to be okay that just didn't see him in the flesh for possibly years at a time.  I mean even if Ben had a full psychotic dark side episode at the age of 10, 12 or 14 and was shipped off to Luke (and I don't think that necessarily happened because Leia does seem overwhelmingly positive about Ben in Bloodline), that is really no reason for the level of detachment that seems to be happening here.  Leia and Han got money.  They've got good, fast ships.  They couldn't visit him once a quarter at Uncle Luke's Nomadic Charter School for the Force Sensitive?  People visit their murderer kids in prison .... Unless ... Luke sold them on the "no attachments" Jedi bill of goods and told them that Ben couldn't have too many visits or he'd get attached and be more vulnerable to the dark side? Go Clueless Jedi Council dogma again!    

@SoloSideCousin
I think the comparison with Ordinary People is spot on especially since the mother ended up leaving both her husband and her son and Leia mentioned that no matter how much they fought she aways hated him seeing him leave.If that happened while Ben was around I could see why he would hold resentent for his father.We as fans of han and Leia know that they fight like crazy and in the end get back together because they love each other so much but for a child Ben that could have been very confusing and hurtful.

snufkin wrote:Princess = uptight WASP, so the analogy probably fits. Especially because if you figure ESB starts 3 years after the original movie - that's 3 years' of Han hanging around the Rebellion being romantically and sexually frustrated because Leia won't admit that the feelings are mutual. He's more emotionally open than she is. Given their class differences, when it came down to being married and raising a child, he probably deferred to her because she had parents and had a more formal/proper upbringing.

If there was no contact for extended periods of time, that would play into feeling alone. It's really hard on somebody, especially when they're young and even if they are close with their family. I definitely didn't get the impression between the movie and this book that being sent off was voluntary on his part, the decision was made for him. And judging by the comment that Han is shocked to see his face as a grown man (and his shock seeing him leaving with Rey), it's been possibly more than 6 years' since they've seen each other.

@snufkin
Yeah,I didn't get that impression either.Notice Leia said ''That's why I send him to Luke'' not that's when ''He went to Luke''or ''When he decided to go to Luke''.I think him going against his will is partly why he has abandonment issues.
I also find it somehwat cold that she didn't even thought of how Ben would react or about spenidng more time with him when she decided to quit being a politician.It was all about repairing her relationship with Han.I mean it's possible Ben told her he wanted to stay with Luke but still...

I think he felt unwanted. I think he's felt unwanted all his life. I always wonder what might have happened if Han had actually said to him:
"I'm sorry. I'm sorry you thought we didn't love you. I'm sorry we weren't there for you."

Instead he asked him to come home because 'they missed him'.
They didn't show it much, did they?

Finally found time to read Bloodline.
It was a great experience - I could not literally put the book down once I started.

Some thoughts (I am not going to repeat Ben parallels because everything has been said so far on the matter):

FO rise:
I have an impression that besides she is "a member", Lady Carise has not got the whole picture of the FO at this stage - she is well aware of her "duties" in the process (Amaxine warriors and contact with Hardassian), but I am pretty certain that her knowledge on the bigger picture is pretty limited. There is a mention (by her) of other bases in outter rim apart from Sibensko)
So, FO is rising somewhere in fragments - which seems like a great plan from Snoke - who is for sure at this stage a figure behind the curtains. I would expect (having Carise s character in mind) to think about certain Supreme leader at least for once)

Ransolm Casterfo - great character. I would love that he survived.
His "betrayal" of Leia is more tragic as anything. I would say from his point of view it is not a betrayal at all. He was manipulated to do so, and having in mind his family history and, his honesty, youth and natural tendency to do the right things - that particular action is logical.

I am very curious now which place or something else we gonna see in 8 - according to Claudia Grey.

And for fun - I am trying to imagine in my head constantly how senator Varish looks like. I can rid of the image of Sesame Street big yellow bird (with limbs instead of wings) lol

Darth_Awakened wrote:from his point of view it is not a betrayal at all. He was manipulated to do so, and having in mind his family history and, his honesty, youth and natural tendency to do the right things - that particular action is logical.

And which character is he supposed to be a parallel to? Possible foreshadowing?

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:from his point of view it is not a betrayal at all. He was manipulated to do so, and having in mind his family history and, his honesty, youth and natural tendency to do the right things - that particular action is logical.

And which character is he supposed to be a parallel to? Possible foreshadowing?

@snufkin

Most probably Ben. But I did not want to repeat like a parrot everybody already pointed out. I am late.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:from his point of view it is not a betrayal at all. He was manipulated to do so, and having in mind his family history and, his honesty, youth and natural tendency to do the right things - that particular action is logical.

And which character is he supposed to be a parallel to? Possible foreshadowing?

@snufkin

Most probably Ben. But I did not want to repeat like a parrot everybody already pointed out. I am late.

@Darth_Awakened

Oh I know! More a rhetorical phrasing (the answer is obvious) than actual question. They are definitely dropping breadcrumbs throughout these stories.

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:from his point of view it is not a betrayal at all. He was manipulated to do so, and having in mind his family history and, his honesty, youth and natural tendency to do the right things - that particular action is logical.

And which character is he supposed to be a parallel to? Possible foreshadowing?

@snufkin

Most probably Ben. But I did not want to repeat like a parrot everybody already pointed out. I am late.

@Darth_Awakened

Oh I know! More a rhetorical phrasing (the answer is obvious) than actual question. They are definitely dropping breadcrumbs throughout these stories.

@snufkin

Yes, they are. I mean as I have been rereading it, Ransolm even has big ears that he has to cover up with hair that he has to "laquer to a sheen" or something or it would be curly. He's also tall and thin and by the book, which you know Ben will be with his "not by the book" parents. Ransolm is like a blonde Ben, lol. There is even a point where Leia is thinking of Ben and Ransolm is right behind her, lol.

@Darth_Awakened I am wondering if the Dubrovnik scenes might be set on Harloff Minor. I think Claudia Gray said she was given a description of a specific place to include in Bloodline. Harloff Minor is described as being very near Coruscant and a center of commerce and culture. It sounds like a place that would attract the sort of well-to-do party people we saw in the Dubrovnik paparazzi pictures. It is also described as having a large river running through it and we know boats and the water will also be a part of those scenes.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:@Darth_Awakened I am wondering if the Dubrovnik scenes might be set on Harloff Minor. I think Claudia Gray said she was given a description of a specific place to include in Bloodline. Harloff Minor is described as being very near Coruscant and a center of commerce and culture. It sounds like a place that would attract the sort of well-to-do party people we saw in the Dubrovnik paparazzi pictures. It is also described as having a large river running through it and we know boats and the water will also be a part of those scenes.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Yes same here. Harloff Minor looked to me like only location from Bloodline which could be Dubrovnik given the description of it.
I was triggered by the mention of commerce and culture - that was a synonym for Dubrovnik through the ages.

Off topic but I find it interesting that Adam is a fan of Ordinary People - he apparently had some issues growing up, and I wonder just exactly what was going through his mind as a kid.

Just because someone's big and strong doesn't mean they aren't vulnerable.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Off topic but I find it interesting that Adam is a fan of Ordinary People - he apparently had some issues growing up, and I wonder just exactly what was going through his mind as a kid.

Just because someone's big and strong doesn't mean they aren't vulnerable.

@motherofpearl1

We were just discussing that! In terms of whatever they show in Ben's backstory, there's likely to be some elements of that family dynamic. Big question is that even if they say Han has left the building, you have to guess he'll appear in the flashbacks. At the very least, showing Ben being miserable while offscreen you hear Han and Leia having one of their famous arguments.

To me the saddest thing about Ben Solo is he has been afraid for much of his life, he's seen himself as inferior to others for much of his life, and he does his best to hide that fear and insecurity and yet he thinks he's weak -someone who tries to hide their fear like that is anything but. One of the best quotes I've ever read - ironically in a children's book - was 'courage is not fearlessness, it is fear mastered.'

I asked Claudia Gray about Bloodburn because I was curious to know if she came up with it or if it was something Rian Johnson/Lf wanted her to introduce. It hasn't been mentioned in Star Wars canon before and I know a few people speculated that Han might have had it. Anyway, Claudia confirmed it was her idea, but she also said she wouldn't be surprised if it was contagious... https://twitter.com/claudiagray/status/776246295677767681

So this is probably nothing, but I thought I'd share. Just bought the updated edition of Star Wars Year by Year: A Visual History and read this



So it says Bloodline is set 7 years before TFA. This book is edited by Pablo by the way, and he wrote this section.

But then there's this recent twitter exchange



But I could have sworn all the marketing leading up to Bloodline's release said 6 years? Is this just a weird error? Or is the timeline moving around even though Pablo says TFA set that timeline?