ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 9

Darth Dementor wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@gemini I think you might be pinning too much importance on the actual plot and characters of LNS. There's no way RJ would be explicitly mentioning it if all he was doing was copying its story, it will be more of a subtle influence on themes and visuals.

@BastilaBey

I agree totally.   The main thing I suspect, story wise is the similar arc Kylo may share with LNS lead character.

Spoiler:

That and how the landscape was a character unto itself in the film.

@Darth Dementor

Yes! And if you've watched any of RJ's previous movies, this is the kind of story he tells best. And i totally agree about the nature romanticism aspect too, with the rain and the sweeping hills, dangerous rocks and steep drops. Lots of The Tempest/Wuthering Heights type vibes.

BastilaBey wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@gemini I think you might be pinning too much importance on the actual plot and characters of LNS. There's no way RJ would be explicitly mentioning it if all he was doing was copying its story, it will be more of a subtle influence on themes and visuals.

@BastilaBey

I agree totally.   The main thing I suspect, story wise is the similar arc Kylo may share with LNS lead character.

Spoiler:

That and how the landscape was a character unto itself in the film.

@Darth Dementor

Yes! And if you've watched any of RJ's previous movies, this is the kind of story he tells best. And i totally agree about the nature romanticism aspect too, with the rain and the sweeping hills, dangerous rocks and steep drops. Lots of The Tempest/Wuthering Heights type vibes.

@BastilaBey

OMG! Tempest = shipwreck! Prince comes to the island in a shipwreck! Kylo's ship crashes on Luke's planet/island! Shipwreck and shipwreck. Island and island. Prince and Prince. Old man and a young woman, old man and a young woman. Tempest and rain storm. Nice try Rian to divert us with LSN, 3 Outlaw Samurai, etc. This is it.

@vaderito and @BastilaBey- I feel like I should track down the professor I had for my Shakespeare 101 class  and tell him that I'm finding uses for stuff I learned in his class. And he's probably be tickled by the Star Wars analogy because he's buddies with Jean Luc Picard himself (Patrick Stewart used to work with that department as a visiting artist for summer Dickens and Shakespeare programs).

@snufkin That's so cool! Ah, you know, they'll always work out a way to get references to the Bard in there somewhere. Just look at Kylo's soliloquy with the helmet, they're not so subtle with the Hamlet vibes there.

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin That's so cool! Ah, you know, they'll always work out a way to get references to the Bard in there somewhere. Just look at Kylo's soliloquy with the helmet, they're not so subtle with the Hamlet vibes there.

@BastilaBey

Oh the helmet was totally Hamlet. A lot of the humanities faculty at UCSC are British and have ties with the Royal Shakespeare Company. So Stewart has been working with the Lit and Drama programs since the 1970s. And I just did a Google and he's on the advisory board for the Shakespeare program. He's a big supporter and friend of the literature program at that school, so I definitely think my old professor would get a kick out of the Star Wars analogy.

@snufkin It's making me think of @frolickingfizzgig's essay on the sun/son metaphor too, as Starkiller Base is destroyed and then reborn - which was basically validated by the artists at their Celebration panel when talking about the visual meaning of playing with the dark and light in scenes.

OT but I'm visiting home at the moment and am going to the rsc for Hamlet tomorrow, very excited about this one. My hometown is boring as hell but at least we're close to Stratford.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/mar/23/hamlet-review-paapa-essiedu-rsc-tragedy

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin It's making me think of @frolickingfizzgig's essay on the sun/son metaphor too, as Starkiller Base is destroyed and then reborn - which was basically validated by the artists at their Celebration panel when talking about the visual meaning of playing with the dark and light in scenes.

OT but I'm visiting home at the moment and am going to the rsc for Hamlet tomorrow, very excited about this one. My hometown is boring as hell but at least we're close to Stratford.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/mar/23/hamlet-review-paapa-essiedu-rsc-tragedy

@BastilaBey

Any of you Tumblr folks wanna talk about the Tempest, be my guest (I gotta study for the PMP, alas!)

This Shakespeare talk is brilliant! Well, come to think about it, every main romance in SW reminds me of a Shakespeare play, come to think about it.

So we got Rey and Kylo which could possibly be The Tempest.

Anidala = Romeo and Juliet
Basically two teenagers who live in a somewhat oppressing environment, and fall in love and cling to each other as a way to escape. Eventually, it destroys them both.

Hanleia = Much Ado About Nothing
A strong, witty, I-take-no-shits woman clashes with a man who seems intent on being an eternal bachelor. BST/UST ensues.

See a pattern?

We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wasn't Shakespeare bisexual? And didn't he write a sonnet about a "dark lady"? Ask the Doctor and Martha Jones, you bunch of uneducated blurbs.

Irina de France wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wasn't Shakespeare bisexual? And didn't he write a sonnet about a "dark lady"? Ask the Doctor and Martha Jones, you bunch of uneducated blurbs.

@Irina de France
I don't see why antis would suddenly not be mischaracterizing people. Other SW fans? Famous figures from English literature? Same dif.

@FrolickingFizzgig - ah you can tell 'em to stuff their outrage! I learned about Shakespeare at a school staffed by some of the founding thinkers of Women's Studies. Although come to think of it, the prof I mentioned is the person I learned the term "canon" from, so I get really confused to hear all this Star Wars talk about canon when it's a strictly non-academic context.

The Tempest is HUGE in Latin American studies and having lived in the Caribbean, that's the region with so many amazing writers who come out of the diaspora formed by Colonialism and Slavery. Caliban is the central character in these discussion, as the individual who's been turned into the racial and cultural other by his "master."

Didn't some of you speculate a while back that maybe Luke caused Kylo's ship to crash? If he did, that would also fit with The Tempest, wouldn't it?

snufkin wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig - ah you can tell 'em to stuff their outrage! I learned about Shakespeare at a school staffed by some of the founding thinkers of Women's Studies. Although come to think of it, the prof I mentioned is the person I learned the term "canon" from, so I get really confused to hear all this Star Wars talk about canon when it's a strictly non-academic context.

The Tempest is HUGE in Latin American studies and having lived in the Caribbean, that's the region with so many amazing writers who come out of the diaspora formed by Colonialism and Slavery. Caliban is the central character in these discussion, as the individual who's been turned into the racial and cultural other by his "master."

@snufkin
I learned about the term "canon" in an art class, and I get confused too!

Irina de France wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wasn't Shakespeare bisexual? And didn't he write a sonnet about a "dark lady"? Ask the Doctor and Martha Jones, you bunch of uneducated blurbs.

@Irina de France

He wrote Dark Lady sonnets (plural). https://allpoetry.com/The-Dark-Lady-Sonnets-(127---154)

Irina de France wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wasn't Shakespeare bisexual? And didn't he write a sonnet about a "dark lady"? Ask the Doctor and Martha Jones, you bunch of uneducated blurbs.

@Irina de France That was a great episode! The JK Rowling references were hilarious! xD

Slade wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:We don't talk Shakespeare enough! And the funny thing is you just know some anti would be like "OMG Shakespeare was a woman-hating, sexist, racist, homophobe and I never would have followed him on Twitter! How dare writers be influenced by him!!!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wasn't Shakespeare bisexual? And didn't he write a sonnet about a "dark lady"? Ask the Doctor and Martha Jones, you bunch of uneducated blurbs.

@Irina de France

He wrote Dark Lady sonnets (plural). https://allpoetry.com/The-Dark-Lady-Sonnets-(127---154)

@Slade

And this is where you see I'm a French lit student, not an English lit XD

@ISeeAnIsland - I definitely got a Tempest vibe and Luke=Prospero vibe from the early rumors

@FrolickingFizzgig - yeah talking about canon if you're not doing scholarly research just seems weird to me. Not that there probably aren't serious Star Wars scholars. The same school I went to now has a full time Grateful Dead historian who manages their archival collection.

Also anybody who might complain about Shakespeare needs to learn a little more about Latin American and West Indian literature/political thought:

Caliban and Caribbean Literature: the Specter of Shakespeare

The name Caliban is an anagram of "cannibal" that was created by English playwright William Shakespeare. In the Shakespearian drama, Caliban is a kind of foolish and aggressive monster who must be ruled by the wise and kind Prospero. Because the word "cannibal" itself comes from the word "Caribbean," the name Caliban has, over the years, simultaneously incorporated the idea of the Caribbean with notions of brutality, barbarism, and cannibalism. Caribbean thinkers and artists have reflected on the controversial name in two ways: first, in the measure to which it implies various European prejudices; and second, in the possibility that it presents an alternative for political and cultural liberation by pointing to a sense of identity among Caribbean people.

In Latin American literature, the first to offer an interpretation of the Caliban character was José Enrique Rodó of Uruguay, who contrasted the rough and irrational Caliban with the high and noble Ariel in his work Ariel (1900). In the second half of the 20th century, however, Caliban was converted into a hero who represented the struggles by Caribbean and Latin American peoples. The first to recognize this identity was writer George Lamming, a native of Barbados, in his book The Pleasures of Exile, from 1960. Lamming, however, saw Caliban as a slave to the language he inherited from the Europeans. Ten years later, the author returned to the topic of Caliban in Water with Berries.

Another important recreation of Shakespeare’s work is Une Tempête, by Martinique writer Aimé Césaire. In this work, Caliban is not a monster, but rather a black slave who refuses to assimilate to Prospero, culturally or politically.

Cuban poet Roberto Fernández Retamar is one of the intellectuals who have most extensively studied Caliban. The author sees the character as a European construction that tries to "animalize" the Caribbean to justify the subjugation of the region by the Old World powers. From a Marxist perspective, Fernández Retamar proposes that social revolution is Caliban’s true nature. Similarly, the poem Caliban, by Barbados writer Edward Kamau Brathwaite, uses the Cuban Revolution as a starting point for understanding Caliban’s liberation. Clearly, over time, Caliban has become an anti-establishment emblem that personifies the rebellious aspects of Caribbean subjects. So what was once a prejudiced distortion of a Caribbean native has been transformed into a valued representation of Caribbean identity.

It should be noted that, thanks in part to the works by Martinique philosopher Frantz Fanon, Caliban has come to represent many people, not just Latin Americans, but also victims of colonization around the world. Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o (Kenya), Raphael Armattoe (Ghana), Lemuel Johnson (Sierra Leone), Taban lo Liyong (Uganda) and Suniti Namjoshi (India) are other non-Caribbean authors who have addressed the topic.

snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - I definitely got a Tempest vibe and Luke=Prospero vibe from the early rumors

@FrolickingFizzgig - yeah talking about canon if you're not doing scholarly research just seems weird to me. Not that there probably aren't serious Star Wars scholars. The same school I went to now has a full time Grateful Dead historian who manages their archival collection.

@snufkin

They actually had a class on the Grateful Dead's music when I went there.

I never took that though--both on account of it filling up ridiculously fast and not being particularly interested in the Grateful Dead's music. I never got to take Angela Davis's class, either.

@ISeeAnIsland - Slug power! While I know some very lovely Deadheads, the whole fan scene and acolytes (see, keeping it on topic!) in Santa Cruz are what makes me never ever want to listen to their music. I took the comic book class prior to Art Spiegelman getting hired. Gary Groth from Fantagraphics Books was our guest lecturer for that year.

re: Tempest I don't think that Kylo is Caliban or even a mix of Prince and Caliban. he's a mix of Prince, Propspero's treacherous brother Antonio and Prince's father Alonso who aided Antonio in treachery. Luke is a mix of Prospero and Ariel (power). Rey is a feminist version of Miranda.
Important thing is that The Tempest ends with Prospero's forgiveness.

Xylo Ren wrote:

EchoBase wrote:

Out of context and Harlequin you said?

@EchoBase

@Xylo Ren

Her body is released?

LOL wow how did I never see that when I read the script before.

Its so telling.

Force sex....

Finn will be fine (Deleted scene) : Have you noticed (Kylo Ren's?) hearbeat sounds in this scene ?


I have watched carefully the deleted scenes of the movie The force awakens to find out some Reylo's Easter Eggs. Deleted scenes are not included in a movie not only because there are not that important but sometimes because they can provide us with key clues too. Here comes what I have noticed while watching the deleted scene « Finn will be fine » (I apologize in advance for linguistic errors, I am no native English-speaker ) :



As we all know, Finn got really bad injured during the snow fight. By analyzing this deleted scene, I first noticed that some things seemed somehow «out of place». If you have a look on the transition of the first shot to the second shot (0:13), it really LOOKS LIKE Rey is staring at Finn while he is treated for his injuries. So you really get the impression that Rey is in front of him and is observing what's going on there. She seems very concerned and really deep in thought…

And then Dr. Kalonia shows up to deliver the diagnosis to Rey. BUT notice that she comes not from the FRONT but from BEHIND Rey. It seems logical to me that Dr. Kalonia has just checked on Finn by herself before she came to Rey to deliver the good new. So why does she come from behind and not from the front if Rey is supposed to observe what's happening?    So what does it tell us? It tells us that Rey is certainly not staring at Finn being treated for his injuries, which means that Finn is probably in another room that is located somewhere behind Rey and on the left.

Let's have a look at the first gif.




Providing that Rey is not staring at Finn at that moment (0:14), WHY does she looks so deep in thought (she stares in front of her as if she is completely in another world!), anxious and somehow scared at a very specific moment?  Notice that her eyes suddenly widden, she somehow gasps and her face expression become very anxious (0:15).

I think I find out why while focusing on the sounds recorded during the scene. Right after the second shot begins, a FIRST SOUND - that is not easy to notice – (0:14) can be heard. This is the sound of an electrocardiogram and nothing more is to be heard at that point. Then Rey's face breaks in anguish: she looks somehow scared and it seems that she feels that something is going really wrong (0:15) Then Dr. Kalonia interrupts her thoughts to bring her the good news about Finn. And at that precise moment,  the same sound  can be heard  for the SECOND time (0:16) while Rey is listening to Dr. Kalonia.

Now let's have look at the second gif:




Even if Rey is distracted by Dr. Kalonia, she still looks very deep in thought and doesn't seem to react to the good new immediately as if her thoughts were somewhere else. And then you hear the sound of the electrocardiogram for the THIRD time followed by a SOFT HEARTBEAT SOUND (0:18).. And suddenly, Rey looks somehow puzzled and relieved at the same time (0:21): she not only seems to react to the good news about Finn but also (supposedly even more) to the heartbeat sound itself!!! And then the sound of the electrocardiogram is to be heard for a FOURTH time followed by a more distinctive hearbeat sound (0:22)!!!

And now let's have a look at the last gif:




Just after Dr. Kalonia leaves her, Rey immediately looks ahead and her face expression seems suddenly so RELIEVED and she even smiles at the very end of the scene (0:27). And during this moment, the sound of the electrocardiogram is to be heard twice (0:23 and 0:25) accompanied by more and more distinctive heartbeat sounds .

SO WHAT COULD IT MEAN ?

The first impression would be to think that the electrocardiagram is recording Finn's hearbeat. BUT THIS JUST MAKES NO SENSE. Dr Kalonia not only comes from behind Rey (and probably from another room) but she also confirms her that everything is ok with Finn. This implies that Dr. Kalonia checked on Finn and was sure that he was fine before the sound of the electrocardiogram is to be heard in the scene.  The fact is that NO hearbeat sound is to be heard during the two first times that we hear the sound of the electrocardiogram (including when Dr. Kalonia is speaking to Rey). Rey looks really scared because she feels that something is terribly wrong: no hearbeat sound is to be heard at that point. So this lead me to think that she hears the sound of the electrocardiogram in her own head and can feel KYLO REN's struggle for life (Force bond theory). He is very badly injured and probably lost a lot of blood to a point that his life is gravely endangered. Rey's face expression leads me to think that she felt that he was losing his life as his hearbeat stopped, and then felt that he came back to life as she finally heard his heartbeat again. And her facial expression is so beautiful at the end of the video : She looks so compassionate, relieved and thankful to know that he will finally survive and will be fine too. Providing that the analysis of the scene is right, it looks like she can't help but caring for the man that she wants so badly to see as a monster. It means that she has already begun to fall in love with him and somehow secretly accepted her feelings toward him.

@reylo1992 I absolutely love that deleted scene for the reasons you just posted, but I have never seen it broken down quite like that. I watched that scene probably a dozen times after I got my digital copy, and it was clear to me she's not staring at Finn, but rather off into space at a vision or thought no one else could see or hear.

I never knew about the heartbeat, but if we're right, it would make complete sense. You know about the heartbeat sounds in the interrogation? They start out as two separate heartbeats, then join into one at the end.

Force bond for the win!

Welcome to the boards, btw. I see this is your first post. I am looking forward to all the other hidden gems you have to bring to the table!!!