ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9

jakkusun wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:

panki wrote:

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

@panki

Thanks. That's really interesting. Maybe Pablo referring to Ben/Kylo as a fallen Jedi is something particular to Ben/Kylo only? Maybe he's making an intentional distinction? Or maybe he just messed up in his tweet...

@Kessel89

Actually I watched part of tfa with the audio description on and they called Kylo Ren a "fallen jedi" multiple times. For example, after he kills Han, the audio description says, "keeping his emotions in check, the fallen jedi lifts his dewy eyes." It might not matter too much, the difference between dark jedi and fallen jedi? It's not like the audio description is super canon-y, but still.

@jakkusun and @Kessel89

Now I am wondering whether they are intentionally making some subtle distinction between him and Dark Jedi for some reason.... since I cannot find any reference of other "fallen jedi" in canon or the EU, I think it might be a good idea to go with the dictionary definition of a fallen person- "someone dishonoured, lost, loose, shamed, ruined, disgraced, immoral, sinful, unchaste".

Now this is my interpretation- If he were  immoral, sinful or unchaste, he would become a dark jedi...but what if he was unfairly shamed, ruined, disgraced or dishonored and never intended to become a dark jedi? Or what if he were "lost"... the jedi order had the "lost 20" who voluntarily left the jedi order and not all of them fell to the dark side....maybe the Vader reveal either caused him ruin/disgrace or he left the order because he was disillusioned?

This actually makes me more hopeful that Ben Solo isn't going to stay bad for long and will be redeemed.

I've been away from my computer for most of the day but checking this thread periodically on my phone because I find this spoiler to be particularly interesting. A few thoughts that I had:

• While I think the GA expects VIII to open with Luke and Rey, I don't see any reason to rule out the KoR ship crashing scenario. In fact, it could sort of mirror VII's opening with the Stormtrooper shuttles descending on Jakku.
  
• If Luke and Rey know that Kylo and the KoR are somewhere on the planet, it certainly would increase the tension and urgency for whatever they're doing there. Impact: We've read from a few sources that VIII is non-stop tension from start to finish. This would certainly fit in with that.
  
• I would imagine that Rey would want to take off with Luke back to the Resistance ASAP, but obviously, Luke is going to refuse to do that (from what we know plot-wise). This could be where Luke telling Rey that she has to kill Kylo comes in.
  
• OR it could be that whatever is in the temple, Luke wants to avoid having Kylo getting his hands on it at all cost. Perhaps that means killing Kylo.
  
• I don't see this having any impact on whether the hut gets blown or not. Perhaps they go back to the huts after the initial fight, with Kylo as their prisoner and/or Kylo having saved Rey. They re-group and come up with a plan to get the relic. Maybe, in fact, they need Kylo's darksiderness to get whatever it is that's in the temple and the conversation is Rey and Kylo deciding to team up to get it.
  
• OR maybe they go back to the huts after getting whatever it is in the temple, and Luke doesn't like whatever plan Rey and Kylo have to use the relic (assuming they're teaming up to go against Snoke) or the hut gets hit by the FO.
  

ETA: I forgot this one, and it's major:

• The KOR showing up early means that Rey doesn't get much chance to train even if she wanted to. Not only does this up the stakes when she faces off with Kylo...*drumroll*....it means that she still needs a teacher. (Cue my "Dirty-Dancing-in-space" headcanon for late in VIII or early in IX.)
  

Being the resident feminist killjoy, the "not a Jedi" line makes me think of how both Maz and Leia are presented as not being part of that group in terms of formal training and sanctioning, but still in possession of that sensitivities and powers. Even if there was an attempt to show women being part of the order in the PT and affiliated books, games, etc, it still comes off as very much an Old Boys Club. Look at all of the insistence that Finn "must" be a Jedi, like it's an exclusive club on the order of Skull and Bones or the Riot Club. The Jedi are definitely not a fraternal organization anybody can join, like the Masons (or the anti-Masons secret order we have here in the American West, E Clampus Vitus aka the Clampers).  You have to possess certain talents and have a sponsor. Ben and Luke both were legacy initiates and if she wasn't busy trying to pull together a fledgling government and being a new mother, Leia likely could've been a legacy initiate too. So there's almost a subtle dig at the Old Boy's Network and the slight devaluing of women's work as being lesser in the Jedi paradigm. I'm really hoping that some of what happens with Rey is a deconstruction of those belief systems, especially because the writers have made the point that the lead has a farther distance to travel in the hero(ine)'s journey as both a woman and somebody from the bottom of the social castes. While it's great to show a woman's journey to becoming part of this elite group, it'd be equally interesting seeing a critique of said group because it's patriarchal.

So @ISeeAnIsland, are you hoping for something along these lines?

@CienaRee Wuxia is the fabric of Snow Fight so Assassin being an inspiration for VIII (Wuthering Fight, anyone?) is right up that alley. I'd love the link to that movie.

panki wrote:

jakkusun wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:

panki wrote:

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

@panki

Thanks. That's really interesting. Maybe Pablo referring to Ben/Kylo as a fallen Jedi is something particular to Ben/Kylo only? Maybe he's making an intentional distinction? Or maybe he just messed up in his tweet...

@Kessel89

Actually I watched part of tfa with the audio description on and they called Kylo Ren a "fallen jedi" multiple times. For example, after he kills Han, the audio description says, "keeping his emotions in check, the fallen jedi lifts his dewy eyes." It might not matter too much, the difference between dark jedi and fallen jedi? It's not like the audio description is super canon-y, but still.

@jakkusun and @Kessel89

Now I am wondering whether they are intentionally making some subtle distinction between him and Dark Jedi for some reason.... since I cannot find any reference of other "fallen jedi" in canon or the EU, I think it might be a good idea to go with the dictionary definition of a fallen person- "someone dishonoured, lost, loose, shamed, ruined, disgraced, immoral, sinful, unchaste".

Now this is my interpretation- If he were  immoral, sinful or unchaste, he would become a dark jedi...but what if he was unfairly shamed, ruined, disgraced or dishonored and never intended to become a dark jedi? Or what if he were "lost"... the jedi order had the "lost 20" who voluntarily left the jedi order and not all of them fell to the dark side....maybe the Vader reveal either caused him ruin/disgrace or he left the order because he was disillusioned?

This actually makes me more hopeful that Ben Solo isn't going to stay bad for long and will be redeemed.

@panki

I love this point of view! While "dark Jedi" seems to imply a deliberately chosen path, "fallen Jedi" sounds more like someone who has lost their way, without a clear alignment. I also agree that it has a less permanent feel to it - something that has fallen can be brought back up/saved. If Kylo/Ben is indeed a fallen Jedi, that suggests to me that he has strayed from his true path... a non-evil character who has found himself on the dark side but doesn't belong there. I'm with you completely in thinking that this supports redemption for Kylo.

Great points about Dark Jedi vs Fallen Jedi, everyone! There must be a reason for distinction. We know that Pablo is really precise with these things so Fallen it is.

Dewy eyed fallen Jedi. 

@CienaRee

I really like your interpretation of how the movie "The Assassin" might fit in the context of Episode VIII ... and this got me thinking of a historical event involving 47 Ronin that took place in Japan and inspired many books, plays and movies (both in English and Japanese) that might have inspired the backstory of Kylo and the KOR. I think the event is named Chushingura in literature. The primary themes of this story are loyalty and avenging a wrong.

In it, a nobleman is unfairly insulted by an official of the Emperor (interesting fact: the name of the official is Kira) and when he tries to avenge the insult, he is forced to kill himself. His family is disgraced and lose everything, and his samurai become ronin. A high ranking samurai who served the dead nobleman and 46 other samurai decide to avenge their master's death to restore the honor of their dead master's family.

For this purpose, they take up lowly professions and the lead samurai in particular debases himself in such a terrible manner that everyone thinks he is a coward and insult him. But this is all a ruse so the official Kira would let his guard down. Then, the 47 ronin access Kira's home and kill him, avenging their master. They were forced to commit suicide for the act, but the honor of their master's family is restored and the family of the nobleman gets it's title back.



Now I feel it could apply to the ST like this- Vader returned to the light when he killed Palpatine. However, only Luke knew this truth. The rest of the galaxy saw him as an irredeemable villain.

Now here is where I begin speculating-

1. What if the KOR are Luke's former students? Luke was trying to re-build the jedi order by piecing together ancient lore, including visiting places like Devaron and Galatenta. I remember an old discrepancy as to whether the KOR was founded by Kylo or whether it was an ancient order.....what if it were both- an ancient order which was revived by Kylo and his fellow students?

2. In Bloodline, people discovered Leia was Vader's daughter and despite her years of faithful service to the new republic, she barely escaped getting physically harmed. Similarly, what if people assumed Luke was teaching his students the ways of the dark side and burnt down the temple? Some students might have even been killed. Luke may have not been present at the temple then but returns to find the burnt ruins. Shattered, he leaves....maybe even thinking Kylo is behind it.

3. Kylo and the survivors might know Snoke was behind the Vader reveal and decide to undertake some sort of suicide mission to avenge the deaths of their fellow students, and even avenge the Skywalker family honor (why would he still wear his old burnt jedi cloak if he hated the jedi order so much? And why would he be in tears when he spoke to his father if he disliked him?).  So they pledge themselves to Snoke in the hope of getting to him.

In the Kabuki version of Chushingura, the main samurai stands near his master's home feeling really sad, holding his master's dagger (legacy lightsaber?) and pledging to avenge the wrong done. (This reminded me of the scene @Sforza talked about where Rey is supposed to have conflicting feelings after seeing the boy in the helmet- it could be the moment Kylo saw his family home for the last time before heading out to take revenge on Snoke)



4. But Snoke (like Kira in the story) is not fool and doesn't trust Kylo... he puts a tracker in his belt and keeps him far away from his location. Kylo spends the next six years proving his loyalty to Snoke...killing people, collecting relics etc. He probably thinks he is doing the right thing, even if it meant doing countless wrongs... so that he and the KOR can finally get access to Snoke and kill him to avenge what he did to his family.

Just going back to LNS, not a spoiler but considering terrain on Ahch-to especially cliffs, I expect simialr image:



We also know that there's a scene of Kylo walking uphill or something based on Ireland photos. So:



Remember "Kylo and Rey affectionate" photo that wasn't? Damn:

@panki - I love your theory! I just got Bloodline from my town library this afternoon (I've been on the waiting list), but those of you who've read it already have speculated that maybe one of the drivers behind Ben's fall was in part people turning on Leia.

snufkin wrote:@panki - I love your theory! I just got Bloodline from my town library this afternoon (I've been on the waiting list), but those of you who've read it already have speculated that maybe one of the drivers behind Ben's fall was in part people turning on Leia.

@snufkin

Thanks... I loved Bloodline.....hope you have a nice time reading it, especially after the long wait (it is definitely worth the wait, imo)... look forward to hearing your views on it

@panki - It's a pretty rare occurance for me to buy a book, typically I get on the waiting list once I know that my library has a copy on order. So it can take a while! But I did promise @SoloSideCousin that I'd read it : ). I do really like how they've tried to place Leia as the actual central character for the OT characters.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
[list]
[*]While I think the GA expects VIII to open with Luke and Rey, I don't see any reason to rule out the KoR ship crashing scenario. In fact, it could sort of mirror VII's opening with the Stormtrooper shuttles descending on Jakku.

[*]

They said pretty much the following: The next movie picks-up where TFA ends.
IMO it does not mean automatically that Rey and Luke s scene would be an opening scene of the movie.
I do believe that they are going to keep the iconic and traditional SW openings:
Opening crawls followed by a brief space scene setting the future conflict in the movie itself:

1. The Republican ship approaching the Trade Federation space station (PM)
2. The Naboo ships approaching Couruscant (ATOC)
3. The close up of big cruiser and than Anakin s and Obi s ships (ROTS)
4. Star Destroyer chasing Tantive IV (ANH)
5. Star Destroyes dispatches probe droids
6. Vader s shuttle leaves Star Destroyer to reach DS 2.0 (ROTJ)
7. Three ships full of Stormtroopers leaves Finalizer heading to Jakku (TFA)
....
Having that in mind, the rumors we heard so far and the situation at the end of TFA:
I see  few possibilities for the opening scene of 8:
- FO ships leaves Finalizer or some other FO base to attack the Resistance base or Republic ships  (based on early rumors by Latino Times which  MSW sort of confirmed ) - which will mirror 100% ESB
- Kylo & KOR ship approaches Anch-To and crashes

[quote="Darth_Awakened"]

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Having that in mind, the rumors we heard so far and the situation at the end of TFA:
I see  few possibilities for the opening scene of 8:
- FO ships leaves Finalizer or some other FO base to attack the Resistance base or Republic ships  (based on early rumors by Latino Times which  MSW sort of confirmed ) - which will mirror 100% ESB
- Kylo & KOR ship approaches Anch-To and crashes

@Darth_Awakened

I think the first option is by far the most likely one, for several reasons. I can't imagine that we're not going to see a Snoke/Kylo scene at the start of the movie, and I also don't see the Kylo/Rey confrontation happening in the first act. Big climatic scenes like this simply don't happen early on, and Kylo spending the entire first act walking ominously around Anch-to sounds too dragged out.

[quote="Saracene"]

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Having that in mind, the rumors we heard so far and the situation at the end of TFA:
I see  few possibilities for the opening scene of 8:
- FO ships leaves Finalizer or some other FO base to attack the Resistance base or Republic ships  (based on early rumors by Latino Times which  MSW sort of confirmed ) - which will mirror 100% ESB
- Kylo & KOR ship approaches Anch-To and crashes

@Darth_Awakened

I think the first option is by far the most likely one, for several reasons. I can't imagine that we're not going to see a Snoke/Kylo scene at the start of the movie, and I also don't see the Kylo/Rey confrontation happening in the first act. Big climatic scenes like this simply don't happen early on, and Kylo spending the entire first act walking ominously around Anch-to sounds too dragged out.

@Saracene

I agree - and I am like 99% sure that we are not going to see Kylo/Rey confrontation sooner than in second act.
Though, it does not mean that Kylo could crash ship at the beginning somewhere at Anch-To.
Just walking around ominously sounds really dull - but in the case as some people speculate it could be that Anch-to hiding way more secrets than only Rey and Luke. It is the first Jedi temple after all.

If these spoilers are true, I can't picture a kiss in the next chapter. If they'll try to kill each other, how they can possibly share some intimacy?

Maria Antonietta wrote:If these spoilers are true, I can't picture a kiss in the next chapter. If they'll try to kill each other, how they can possibly share some intimacy?

@Maria Antonietta

I don't know, maybe it's more likely to have a kiss or an almost kiss if the emotions are that intensive like hate? . Remember that she wanted to kill him as well, after all what they've shared before. It's much better than total indifference. Isn't it intimate thing trying to kill your mortal enemy?

I think I watched Buffy way too often....

EchoBase wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:If these spoilers are true, I can't picture a kiss in the next chapter. If they'll try to kill each other, how they can possibly share some intimacy?

@Maria Antonietta

I don't know, maybe it's more likely to have a kiss or an almost kiss if the emotions are that intensive like hate? . Remember that she wanted to kill him as well, after all what they've shared before. It's much better than total indifference. Isn't it intimate thing trying to kill your mortal enemy?

I think I watched Buffy way too often....

@EchoBase

Yeah but it's "too" intense for a franchise like sw

Maria Antonietta wrote:If these spoilers are true, I can't picture a kiss in the next chapter. If they'll try to kill each other, how they can possibly share some intimacy?

@Maria Antonietta

There's more chance of it if they're stuck on an island together for a substantial portion of the running time than if they were separate. Passions can run high during fights and if there's mutual attraction, who knows? I'm not pinning my hopes on a kiss, though. If they move from enemies towards something more friendly, that would be progress.

As for Snoke - There's no way of telling how much filming was done with Andy Serkis, but he did seem to be working on other projects for much of the shoot for VIII. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see much of Snoke at all in the next Ep. It's just a feeling, and maybe I'm going on Palpatine in the OT, but I'm thinking they're saving most of the Snoke stuff for IX. There will probably be the same kind of Kylo and Hux with hologram Snoke scenes we got in TFA, maybe with a hint of more regarding what's going on under the surface. I'm not convinced Kylo will be completing any training in the same way as Rey won't have time to get trained by Luke. Maybe killing Rey is Snoke's idea of completion, for all we know.

To me, it doesn't make sense that Kylo isn't on Ahch-to at the time of FO attack that leaves his mother in coma. Whatever happens to Leia must be of consequence to Kylo first and Luke second plus Rey so most sensible and least convoluted solution is that they are at the same place when event happens and they find out either through the Force or otherwise. Because Kylo will have to face Leia considering that TFA was his facing his father and VIII is facing his uncle. Remember, movies are about new characters so it isn't "Luke must see his sister" but "Kylo must see his uncle and his mother". So form that POV, it makes ZERO sense for Kylo to be with the FO when they send his mother into coma and than nonchalantly come to Ahch-to in pursuit of his runaway bride. 

I really don't care about Kylo meeting Snoke and better for him if he doesn't. Just because Snoke said it was time to complete his training it doesn't mean Kylo will stick around for that. In fact, plot point can be that Kylo didn't complete his training which pisses off Snoke. They are not taking ESB route with this so all bets are off.

Maria Antonietta wrote:If these spoilers are true, I can't picture a kiss in the next chapter. If they'll try to kill each other, how they can possibly share some intimacy?

@Maria Antonietta

I don't think they want to kill each other, not truly. It's outside politics and external influences that are driving them to act as enemies, for the most part (that is how I see it).

Putting them in an isolated environment together, cut off from the Resistance/First Order, will likely remove that facade of being enemies who must kill each other. Truth is, they really don't know one another well enough yet to realize how much they can relate. And we know there are so many parallels between them it's crazy.

They briefly felt the Force in each other during the interrogation and for a moment, they were not adversaries. There was something more that transcended the superficial conflicts of war. I think we will see more of that, and perhaps this time it will last longer than a brief moment and they'll recognize a connection between them that can possibly begin to form a bond.

Not to mention, there are signs throughout all of their one-on-one scenes in TFA that they feel a physical attraction to each other at the very least. I suspect this will be much harder for them to ignore/deny when they start to spend time together in a neutral setting like Ahch-To. This attraction can only grow in that sort of situation, until eventually one or both of them gives in.

I actually don't think that Leia's coma will be of much significance to Kylo, to be honest. That's not to say it wouldn't affect him at all, but I don't think it will influence his actions or stop him from coming to Anch-to or make him come back to the Resistance. If these series are about new characters, and Rey is our main protagonist, then Kylo's most important relationship that influences his actions will be Rey - not Leia.

If Kylo has been picked up by Hux, then is it just those two together or a load of FO types such as Phasma?

Assuming that VIII kicks off immediately after VII for Kylo too, does he bring Hux with him to Ahch-to? Do we know what Domnhall was doing as far as filming is concerned?

Jakku wrote:If Kylo has been picked up by Hux, then is it just those two together or a load of FO types such as Phasma?

Assuming that VIII kicks off immediately after VII for Kylo too, does he bring Hux with him to Ahch-to? Do we know what Domnhall was doing as far as filming is concerned?

@Jakku

Hux doesn't have experience in fighting, that's why he's commanding people instead. Also Hux's mission is to go at the Resistane's - and the Republic's - throat(s), Luke and Rey are Kylo's business. Hux will just make sure his lackeys put him in a bacta tank, then Kylo's back on track and on his own again.

Jakku wrote:If Kylo has been picked up by Hux, then is it just those two together or a load of FO types such as Phasma?    

Assuming that VIII kicks off immediately after VII for Kylo too, does he bring Hux with him to Ahch-to?  Do we know what Domnhall was doing as far as filming is concerned?

@Jakku

I think the novelisation says that Hux and some Stormtroopers retrieve Kylo from the exploding Starkiller Base. I would assume that after that they went to the Finalizer. Phasma got out of the garbage shoot, but we don't know how or who retrieved her, presumably some Stormtroopers. I would say that Hux, Kylo and Phasma would be aboard the Finalizer heading towards a rendezvous with Snoke, wherever he calls home. Kylo would need some bacta tank healing we assume because of his injuries.

I asked PH how much time has elapsed from the destruction of Starkiller Base to Rey arriving on Ahch-To. He didn't reply, but my feeling is that at least a day or two passed. It was enough time for Finn to be healing well (although comatose). In a deleted scene from TFA Dr. Kalonia tells Rey that Finn's going to be o.k. Also, Rey gets cleaned up and changes clothes, Leia also changes clothes and hairstyle, plus C-3PO gets a freshly painted gold arm. It's feasible therefore that Kylo got some time to heal.

I don't know that there were ever any sightings of Domnhall Gleeson during filming. My feeling is that he will be dealing with the First Order versus the resistance side and of the plot and won't share many scenes with Kylo. Hux and Phasma will be facing off with Finn, Poe, Leia and Co, I would say. Domnhall wasn't spotted at any of the location filming so his scenes probably all took place on the Pinewood sets.

ETA - If Kylo got Luke's location from Rey's mind, as we've speculated he did, maybe that's a reason for overriding Snoke's orders. Either Kylo goes rogue and leaves the Finalizer (if that's where he is) in defiance of Snoke and Hux, picking up the Knights of Ren along the way, or Snoke gives the order once Kylo tells him that he knows where Luke and Rey are.