ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2

BastilaBey wrote:@Iojovi I guess the key question there would be, if there was always that central romance, was 'jedi killer' always the son of Han and Leia? Or is it possible that this young female hero was the Skywalker, and he was an unrelated character?

@BastilaBey

I think originally my personal opinion is that Jedi Killer was Luke's son, I think some of the changes was to combine and make only one descendant of Darth Vader be a Solo/Skywalker...

JJ wanted Han & Leia to be central to the story, especially with Harrison Ford coming back

Gemini wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@Iojovi I guess the key question there would be, if there was always that central romance, was 'jedi killer' always the son of Han and Leia? Or is it possible that this young female hero was the Skywalker, and he was an unrelated character?

@BastilaBey

I think that goes back to Pablo's tweet - the creators didn't have Rey's backstory mapped out yet - they only knew who she wasn't (which was an awesome tweet, I admit!).  As far as Jedi Killer goes, he began as a dark entity that ate stars, so there's that.  I doubt he was Han and Leia's son at that point.  

@IoJovi

Does anyone have the tweet where he says the backstory wasn't mapped out yet for her as in Rey.

Because it seems like it has not changed from other tweets where he says the story Lucas left is what they used with Rey in particular. Also George Lucas' son seeming to know the back story when he called Rey "Anastasia" (story of a Royal who loses it all and ends up in rags.)

Reys name does mean regal in French and King in Spanish. I think there's some clues there. Lots of thought goes into a name.

Actually if you search names which mean regal or royalty you get Rey in Google.

     Rey means "king" in Spanish and Occitan, derived from the Latin rex(King) It is used as a surname throughout the world. It is also used as a given name for both males and females, sometimes as an alternative to Raymond.

Meaning. Spanish Meaning: The name Rey is a Spanish baby name. ... In French the meaning of the name Rey is: Regal.

@Gemini


Sorry to quote myself but I lolled. Upon searching the meaning of the name Kira. In many languages is means Beam of light, or shiny(Ray Rey) Rey also means regal but what had me lolling was:

"In Russian Kira (Ки́ра) is the feminine form of the male name Kir, meaning "mistress, ruler", but can translate to "leader of the people", "one the people look to" or "beloved".[4] Kira could also have arrived into Russian from the Persian-Greek name Kyra."

Anastasia was a Russian princess


mind blown

"Rey is like Anastasia " - George Lucas' son

Pablo said "the story of a young woman finding her place in the Force" was the concept Lucas left behind that was ultimately used. That tells us absolutely nothing about specific backstory details (if there were any at all). One female character does not = another female character. Lucas' "Rey" might have been completely different from JJ/KK's "Rey".

Lucas' son said TFA shared similarities with Anastasia. She's a lost young woman who desperately wants her family to return for her (just like Anya). I can see why the comparison is valid without assuming Lucas' son knows anything about Rey's backstory. The similarities are right there in TFA itself, which is what he actually said.

Jett Lucas saw his fathers  treatments

spacebaby45678 wrote:Jett Lucas saw his fathers  treatments

@spacebaby45678
I know, and so what...? That doesn't mean he knows the character's backstory now... again, theories based on theories/assumptions.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@IoJovi
The central story definitely changed between the Lucas and JJ treatments. Jedi Killer wasn't the original villain, there was a female Sith in Lucas' version instead. Jedi Killer was an Arndt/JJ concept, and even then he wasn't human or a legacy character to begin with. Nobody can tell me the narratives were fundamentally the same when the major villain was different in each treatment to the extent that one was female, one was a weird looking red alien and one was a human/anti-villain and Han and Leia's son.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah - let's keep in mind that Pablo said Darth Talon was in GL's version. Darth Talon being:



I can't imagine how much overlap the stories of TFA and the GL treatment could have had with such a fundamentally different villain. But of course that doesn't mean there might not be some things in common. We just can't know yet.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Pablo said "the story of a young woman finding her place in the Force" was the concept Lucas left behind that was ultimately used. That tells us absolutely nothing about specific backstory details (if there were any at all). One female character does not = another female character. Lucas' "Rey" might have been completely different from JJ/KK's "Rey".

Lucas' son said TFA shared similarities with Anastasia. She's a lost young woman who desperately wants her family to return for her (just like Anya). I can see why the comparison is valid without assuming Lucas' son knows anything about Rey's backstory. The similarities are right there in TFA itself, which is what he actually said.

@FrolickingFizzgig

My bad misread the quote but you are right TFA is similar to Anastasia and since the main character is Anastasia and Rey is the main character it's very similar, more so than beauty and the beast parallels. Just discovered this awesome article. They are dead wrong about solo. But everything about her journey is like Anastasia. It's up to the final part to inform us if she is a princess or not. Considering her Rey means regal and King and in Russian Kira means ruler of the people etc it again would suggest that her backstory has always been princess.

.    


The Story Of Rey Has Eerie Parallels To 'Anastasia'

Anastasia and Rey
Anastasia and Rey
Anastasia was a 20th Century Fox animated feature film that came out in 1997. Tonally, it's similar to the features Disney released during their Dark Age; it's frightening for young viewers, it deals with a serious subject matter, but it does so in a beautiful way. It stars the voice talents of Christopher Lloyd as the evil villain Rasputin and Meg Ryan as the titular character.

Some eagle-eyed fans out there have noticed that the characters of Anastasia and Rey share more than just a passing similarity. Their story arcs, personalities, are strengths seem to be mirrors of one another. If all of these parallels hold up, it could hint at the answer to the biggest question posed by The Force Awakens: Who are Rey's parents? Before we get into what might happen, let's look at the similarities that have already happened.

Keep in mind this is all speculative and for fun, so just go with it.

Both Of Their Life Stories Start The Same Way

Young Anastasia and young Rey
Young Anastasia and young Rey
As young children, Anastasia and Rey grew up without parents in their lives. They were effectively orphans, despite their real parents still being alive (if this theory proves true for Rey). They are each left in a remote, desolate place where they have to fend for themselves and face harsh situations.

Both Grow Up In Similar Harsh Circumstances

Phlegmenkoff and Unkar Plutt
Phlegmenkoff and Unkar Plutt
The closest thing either of our heroines have to a parent figure is a rude caretaker who forces them to work. In Rey's case it's the alien Unkar Plutt, who gives the people of Jakku horrible deals on the items they find him. For Anastasia, it's a bitter old woman named Phlegmenkoff. Both Rey and Anastasia wish to escape the place they've been trapped in for as long as they can remember. They yearn for a better life — little did they know that their destinies would turn out to be so exciting.


Both Encounter A Helpless Character Who Follows Them

Pooka and BB-8
Pooka and BB-8
Before their tremendous adventures can begin, however, they first come across a seemingly helpless character in need. In fact, a lot of parallels can be made between Pooka (the dog) and BB-8 (the robot). Both are comedic relief characters that rush headfirst into danger and help our heroes out whenever possible. But at the end of the day all they really want to do is play and maybe retrieve something for our heroines. Anastasia and Rey are both reluctant at first to allow the happy little fellows to follow them, but luckily for the audience Pooka and BB-8 are just too cute to say no to.

Both Meet Men Who Are Hiding Their Pasts

Dimitri and Finn
Dimitri and Finn
Anastasia was ahead of its time. Nearly 20 years before the makers of Star Wars felt comfortable putting the male protagonist on the back burner, Anastasia was proving females rule! In both films, the men who fall in love with our stars are hiding deep secrets. Finn is hiding that he's actually a Stormtrooper of the First Order and is seeking freedom and redemption. Dimitri, on the other hand, is essentially a con man. He and his business partner, Vladimir, are seeking to cash in on a reward for finding the princess Anastasia. Instead, they hold auditions for actresses who bear a resemblance to the princess (little do they know that Anastasia is the Anastasia).

Both Are Kidnapped By The Antagonist

Rasputin and Kylo Ren
Rasputin and Kylo Ren
Again the antagonists themselves share striking similarities to each other. Both control a mystical power that enables them to overpower our female leads. Anastasia and Rey both have the power to topple everything the villain has built, and therefor pose a major problem for the bad guy. The villains manage to corner our heroines while they are alone and capture them. Which leads us to our next point...

Both Male Protagonists Attempt To Rescue Them (And Fail)

Dimitri and Finn getting knocked out
Dimitri and Finn getting knocked out
The damsel in distress. It's such a cliché. However, in both of these films that cliché gets flipped on its head when the male co-stars are unable to protect the women from the villain. Both are severally wounded and the outcome doesn't look hopeful. This leads the former 'damsel' to fight for herself against the antagonist and in doing so it unlocks something hidden and powerful inside each of them.


Both Discover A Power They Didn't Know They Had

Anastasia and Rey unlocking their powers
Anastasia and Rey unlocking their powers
By being cornered, the heroines have to fight for themselves and each discovers a power she didn't realize she possessed. In Anastasia's case, this power is far more symbolic than physical. All her life she had lived as an orphan, told nobody cared about her and that she would never amount to anything. However, when she believes Dimitri is dead, it awakes in Anastasia a sense of anger that fuels a confidence and power she had never felt before. She fights Rasputin and kills him.

For Rey, it turns out she is a powerful Force-user. She is able to overcome the wounded Kylo Ren and fend him off long enough for the ground to split between them so she could escape with Finn.



Up to this point all of the above has actually happened in both movies, but here is where the theoretical aspect comes into play — at least for Ren, whose story is not yet complete.

Anastasia Was And Ren Will Be Reunited With Her Family As A Princess
 

http://moviepilot.com/posts/4058702

GL's villian is much different, this you can tell from the artwork treatments... Jett easily pointed out the similarities to Anastasia very early on, because he recognized something or new something before hand..

Gemini wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Pablo said "the story of a young woman finding her place in the Force" was the concept Lucas left behind that was ultimately used. That tells us absolutely nothing about specific backstory details (if there were any at all). One female character does not = another female character. Lucas' "Rey" might have been completely different from JJ/KK's "Rey".

Lucas' son said TFA shared similarities with Anastasia. She's a lost young woman who desperately wants her family to return for her (just like Anya). I can see why the comparison is valid without assuming Lucas' son knows anything about Rey's backstory. The similarities are right there in TFA itself, which is what he actually said.

@FrolickingFizzgig

My bad misread the quote but you are right TFA is similar to Anastasia and since the main character is Anastasia and Rey is the main character it's very similar, more so than beauty and the beast parallels. Just discovered this awesome article. They are dead wrong about solo. But everything about her journey is like Anastasia. It's up to the final part to inform us if she is a princess or not. Considering her Rey means regal and King and in Russian Kira means ruler of the people etc it again would suggest that her backstory has always been princess.

.    


The Story Of Rey Has Eerie Parallels To 'Anastasia'

Anastasia and Rey
Anastasia and Rey
Anastasia was a 20th Century Fox animated feature film that came out in 1997. Tonally, it's similar to the features Disney released during their Dark Age; it's frightening for young viewers, it deals with a serious subject matter, but it does so in a beautiful way. It stars the voice talents of Christopher Lloyd as the evil villain Rasputin and Meg Ryan as the titular character.

Some eagle-eyed fans out there have noticed that the characters of Anastasia and Rey share more than just a passing similarity. Their story arcs, personalities, are strengths seem to be mirrors of one another. If all of these parallels hold up, it could hint at the answer to the biggest question posed by The Force Awakens: Who are Rey's parents? Before we get into what might happen, let's look at the similarities that have already happened.

Keep in mind this is all speculative and for fun, so just go with it.

Both Of Their Life Stories Start The Same Way

Young Anastasia and young Rey
Young Anastasia and young Rey
As young children, Anastasia and Rey grew up without parents in their lives. They were effectively orphans, despite their real parents still being alive (if this theory proves true for Rey). They are each left in a remote, desolate place where they have to fend for themselves and face harsh situations.

Both Grow Up In Similar Harsh Circumstances

Phlegmenkoff and Unkar Plutt
Phlegmenkoff and Unkar Plutt
The closest thing either of our heroines have to a parent figure is a rude caretaker who forces them to work. In Rey's case it's the alien Unkar Plutt, who gives the people of Jakku horrible deals on the items they find him. For Anastasia, it's a bitter old woman named Phlegmenkoff. Both Rey and Anastasia wish to escape the place they've been trapped in for as long as they can remember. They yearn for a better life — little did they know that their destinies would turn out to be so exciting.


Both Encounter A Helpless Character Who Follows Them

Pooka and BB-8
Pooka and BB-8
Before their tremendous adventures can begin, however, they first come across a seemingly helpless character in need. In fact, a lot of parallels can be made between Pooka (the dog) and BB-8 (the robot). Both are comedic relief characters that rush headfirst into danger and help our heroes out whenever possible. But at the end of the day all they really want to do is play and maybe retrieve something for our heroines. Anastasia and Rey are both reluctant at first to allow the happy little fellows to follow them, but luckily for the audience Pooka and BB-8 are just too cute to say no to.

Both Meet Men Who Are Hiding Their Pasts

Dimitri and Finn
Dimitri and Finn
Anastasia was ahead of its time. Nearly 20 years before the makers of Star Wars felt comfortable putting the male protagonist on the back burner, Anastasia was proving females rule! In both films, the men who fall in love with our stars are hiding deep secrets. Finn is hiding that he's actually a Stormtrooper of the First Order and is seeking freedom and redemption. Dimitri, on the other hand, is essentially a con man. He and his business partner, Vladimir, are seeking to cash in on a reward for finding the princess Anastasia. Instead, they hold auditions for actresses who bear a resemblance to the princess (little do they know that Anastasia is the Anastasia).

Both Are Kidnapped By The Antagonist

Rasputin and Kylo Ren
Rasputin and Kylo Ren
Again the antagonists themselves share striking similarities to each other. Both control a mystical power that enables them to overpower our female leads. Anastasia and Rey both have the power to topple everything the villain has built, and therefor pose a major problem for the bad guy. The villains manage to corner our heroines while they are alone and capture them. Which leads us to our next point...

Both Male Protagonists Attempt To Rescue Them (And Fail)

Dimitri and Finn getting knocked out
Dimitri and Finn getting knocked out
The damsel in distress. It's such a cliché. However, in both of these films that cliché gets flipped on its head when the male co-stars are unable to protect the women from the villain. Both are severally wounded and the outcome doesn't look hopeful. This leads the former 'damsel' to fight for herself against the antagonist and in doing so it unlocks something hidden and powerful inside each of them.


Both Discover A Power They Didn't Know They Had

Anastasia and Rey unlocking their powers
Anastasia and Rey unlocking their powers
By being cornered, the heroines have to fight for themselves and each discovers a power she didn't realize she possessed. In Anastasia's case, this power is far more symbolic than physical. All her life she had lived as an orphan, told nobody cared about her and that she would never amount to anything. However, when she believes Dimitri is dead, it awakes in Anastasia a sense of anger that fuels a confidence and power she had never felt before. She fights Rasputin and kills him.

For Rey, it turns out she is a powerful Force-user. She is able to overcome the wounded Kylo Ren and fend him off long enough for the ground to split between them so she could escape with Finn.



Up to this point all of the above has actually happened in both movies, but here is where the theoretical aspect comes into play — at least for Ren, whose story is not yet complete.

Anastasia Was And Ren Will Be Reunited With Her Family As A Princess
 

http://moviepilot.com/posts/4058702

@Gemini

Anastasia Romanov was a Grand Duchess... If we are going parallels and maybe a Kenobi, Rey would be a Grand Duchess of Mandalore

The only other Duchess in Star Wars is of course Satine

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@IoJovi
The central story definitely changed between the Lucas and JJ treatments. Jedi Killer wasn't the original villain, there was a female Sith in Lucas' version instead. Jedi Killer was an Arndt/JJ concept, and even then he wasn't human or a legacy character to begin with. Nobody can tell me the narratives were fundamentally the same when the major villain was different in each treatment to the extent that one was female, one was a weird looking red alien and one was a human/anti-villain and Han and Leia's son.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah - let's keep in mind that Pablo said Darth Talon was in GL's version. Darth Talon being:



I can't imagine how much overlap the stories of TFA and the GL treatment could have had with such a fundamentally different villain. But of course that doesn't mean there might not be some things in common. We just can't know yet.

@Darth Dingbat
Indeed, it's really hard to imagine that the stories were even remotely similar (other than both focusing on a woman's coming-of-age through the Force). The hero/villain dynamic is what makes SW, and this looks like it would have had more of a maiden/mother dynamic. It doesn't tell us whether or not Talon would have been the villain in TFA or in the overall ST, but either way it's a completely different narrative. She was scrapped for the ST, clearly. If the major villain changed how much could have been the same? Finn didn't exist, Kylo didn't exist, Jakku didn't exist, SKB didn't exist, etc. Eventually Jedi Killer came into being in the Arndt treatment, but he was a monstrous creature at first. He slowly became more and more human, and eventually it was decided Han would die and Jedi Killer (his son) would do the deed. And then JJ took over. We really just don't know...

FrolickingFizzgig wrote: Indeed, it's really hard to imagine that the stories were even remotely similar (other than both focusing on a woman's coming-of-age through the Force). The hero/villain dynamic is what makes SW, and this looks like it would have had more of a maiden/mother dynamic. It doesn't tell us whether or not Talon would have been the villain in TFA or in the overall ST, but either way it's a completely different narrative. She was scrapped for the ST, clearly. If the major villain changed how much could have been the same? Finn didn't exist, Kylo didn't exist, Jakku didn't exist, SKB didn't exist, etc. Eventually Jedi Killer came into being in the Arndt treatment, but he was a monstrous creature at first. He slowly became more and more human, and eventually it was decided Han would die and Jedi Killer (his son) would do the deed. And then JJ took over. We really just don't know...

@FrolickingFizzgig I was just thinking it would've been the maiden/mother dynamic if this version was the one that was made. Regardless it would be interesting to see that in a Star Wars movie one day. I'm sure there were a few in the EU, but they were very few and far between (Tenel Ka and her mother come to mind). But wasn't this heroine Lucas created originally Han and Leia's lost daughter? I remember reading that somewhere but was it actually confirmed or just speculation?

If the ST has more in common with Anastasia then Beauty and the Beast, you may as well throw out Reylo as the defining relationship. Anastasia's antagonist was Rasputin, not a conflicted anti-villain who was strangely drawn to her. The dynamics are totally different. The only thing I can see in TFA that parallels is that she's hoping to be reunited with her family. But it's not her quest to find them, her quest actually involves leaving the past behind and striking out with her new friends for a larger destiny.

I really take this comment from Lucas' son with a pinch of salt. He seems to be talking about Rey as an orphan with mysterious origins. He doesn't know JJ and Kasdan's story, or Rian's or Trevorrow's. He might know his own father's treatment, that never made it to screen.

TFA is like Anastasia, only part not covered yet is the princess part.

I doubt the next 2 instalments will follow the Anastasia thing again. It's already done the majority of it and ren was not murdered. I think ren did die however and Ben will come back now.

I'm just going with what jett Lucas has said, what the movie has shown us with matching characters and plot points with Anastasia. Kira meaning ruler of the people in Russian. Rey meaning King and Regal. All points to her being  royalty.

No one is throwing reylo out the window.

It's not 100 percent based around it imo, just parts of the plot and the way certain characters behave and plot points.

Also I wouldn't rule out her wanting to know about her past? Why would she not care?

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote: Indeed, it's really hard to imagine that the stories were even remotely similar (other than both focusing on a woman's coming-of-age through the Force). The hero/villain dynamic is what makes SW, and this looks like it would have had more of a maiden/mother dynamic. It doesn't tell us whether or not Talon would have been the villain in TFA or in the overall ST, but either way it's a completely different narrative. She was scrapped for the ST, clearly. If the major villain changed how much could have been the same? Finn didn't exist, Kylo didn't exist, Jakku didn't exist, SKB didn't exist, etc. Eventually Jedi Killer came into being in the Arndt treatment, but he was a monstrous creature at first. He slowly became more and more human, and eventually it was decided Han would die and Jedi Killer (his son) would do the deed. And then JJ took over. We really just don't know...

@FrolickingFizzgig I was just thinking it would've been the maiden/mother dynamic if this version was the one that was made. Regardless it would be interesting to see that in a Star Wars movie one day. I'm sure there were a few in the EU, but they were very few and far between (Tenel Ka and her mother come to mind). But wasn't this heroine Lucas created originally Han and Leia's lost daughter? I remember reading that somewhere but was it actually confirmed or just speculation?

@AppleCrumble122
Speculation as far as I know, as I've never heard that for sure. I think there were more characters and they were younger (not much younger, but maybe 15-16 as opposed to 20). We know there was more than one Solo grandchild because Lucas made the remark "what happened to Vader's grandchildren?" after reading the TFA script. I have no backing for this, but I don't think Lucas ever intended Luke to have children or a wife in his canon. He wanted him to become an Obi-Wan figure. But as for the main protagonist, we don't know what her affiliation would have been. Perhaps she was always an unattached outsider or had some connection to the Jedi origin story (if Lucas made an origin story I'm positive LucasFilm would have wanted to use it), perhaps she was a Kenobi, perhaps she was a Solo or perhaps she was something totally unguessable.

@Gemini I didn't say Rey doesn't care about her past. That would be a ridiculous statement, of course she does. She spent over a decade waiting for her family to come back.

If we're just talking about TFA, as Jett was in that tweet, sure. I guess. Although I don't really understand why the comparison to Anastasia when it's a very common trope to have orphan heroines anyway?

I do think there's something to the rey and kira royalty links, but to me that points towards her being very, very important to a future plot point about the history of the force/the jedi/whatever and what went down with Palpatine exploring Jakku. It doesn't point toward Kenobi for me and I will honestly be shocked if they reveal he had a kid with Satine after their arc in The Clone Wars.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote: Indeed, it's really hard to imagine that the stories were even remotely similar (other than both focusing on a woman's coming-of-age through the Force). The hero/villain dynamic is what makes SW, and this looks like it would have had more of a maiden/mother dynamic. It doesn't tell us whether or not Talon would have been the villain in TFA or in the overall ST, but either way it's a completely different narrative. She was scrapped for the ST, clearly. If the major villain changed how much could have been the same? Finn didn't exist, Kylo didn't exist, Jakku didn't exist, SKB didn't exist, etc. Eventually Jedi Killer came into being in the Arndt treatment, but he was a monstrous creature at first. He slowly became more and more human, and eventually it was decided Han would die and Jedi Killer (his son) would do the deed. And then JJ took over. We really just don't know...

@FrolickingFizzgig I was just thinking it would've been the maiden/mother dynamic if this version was the one that was made. Regardless it would be interesting to see that in a Star Wars movie one day. I'm sure there were a few in the EU, but they were very few and far between (Tenel Ka and her mother come to mind). But wasn't this heroine Lucas created originally Han and Leia's lost daughter? I remember reading that somewhere but was it actually confirmed or just speculation?

@AppleCrumble122
Speculation as far as I know, as I've never heard that for sure. I think there were more characters and they were younger (not much younger, but maybe 15-16 as opposed to 20). We know there was more than one Solo grandchild because Lucas made the remark "what happened to Vader's grandchildren?" after reading the TFA script. I have no backing for this, but I don't think Lucas ever intended Luke to have children or a wife in his canon. He wanted him to become an Obi-Wan figure. But as for the main protagonist, we don't know what her affiliation would have been. Perhaps she was always an unattached outsider or had some connection to the Jedi origin story (if Lucas made an origin story I'm positive LucasFilm would have wanted to use it), perhaps she was a Kenobi, perhaps she was a Solo or perhaps she was something totally unguessable.

@FrolickingFizzgig

On the other hand, it's hard to put two and two together because Darth Talon is a very "adult" villain... and the Darth Talon concepts (which are presumably from ye olde GL treatment era) are centered on sex and seduction. One piece depicts the literal seduction of a Jedi who's in bed with a Twi'lek woman (presumably Talon) and then she steals his lightsaber while he's either asleep or dead in bed.

The only way I can reconcile a seductress villain with a young female protagonist is to imagine a Snow Queen type of dynamic between them, with the heroine saving a young male from her clutches.

@BastilaBey

Yeah I get what you are saying. I don't think the Anastasia parallel will continue because it's kind of all done now in TFA. Only thing not done is the princess/dutchess thing which would lead me to think that it's yet to be a plot point in the next 2 movies.

If Anastasia is similar to her backstory then it could be an indication of what happened. Royalty overthrown and she was abandoned.

My personal take on it is that she is royalty/legacy descendent. Because Orphans in fantasy with no backstory or parents almost always turn out to be royalty or hero blood. But it could mean just the force also. I see what you mean

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote: Indeed, it's really hard to imagine that the stories were even remotely similar (other than both focusing on a woman's coming-of-age through the Force). The hero/villain dynamic is what makes SW, and this looks like it would have had more of a maiden/mother dynamic. It doesn't tell us whether or not Talon would have been the villain in TFA or in the overall ST, but either way it's a completely different narrative. She was scrapped for the ST, clearly. If the major villain changed how much could have been the same? Finn didn't exist, Kylo didn't exist, Jakku didn't exist, SKB didn't exist, etc. Eventually Jedi Killer came into being in the Arndt treatment, but he was a monstrous creature at first. He slowly became more and more human, and eventually it was decided Han would die and Jedi Killer (his son) would do the deed. And then JJ took over. We really just don't know...

@FrolickingFizzgig I was just thinking it would've been the maiden/mother dynamic if this version was the one that was made. Regardless it would be interesting to see that in a Star Wars movie one day. I'm sure there were a few in the EU, but they were very few and far between (Tenel Ka and her mother come to mind). But wasn't this heroine Lucas created originally Han and Leia's lost daughter? I remember reading that somewhere but was it actually confirmed or just speculation?

@AppleCrumble122
Speculation as far as I know, as I've never heard that for sure. I think there were more characters and they were younger (not much younger, but maybe 15-16 as opposed to 20). We know there was more than one Solo grandchild because Lucas made the remark "what happened to Vader's grandchildren?" after reading the TFA script. I have no backing for this, but I don't think Lucas ever intended Luke to have children or a wife in his canon. He wanted him to become an Obi-Wan figure. But as for the main protagonist, we don't know what her affiliation would have been. Perhaps she was always an unattached outsider or had some connection to the Jedi origin story (if Lucas made an origin story I'm positive LucasFilm would have wanted to use it), perhaps she was a Kenobi, perhaps she was a Solo or perhaps she was something totally unguessable.

@FrolickingFizzgig

On the other hand, it's hard to put two and two together because Darth Talon is a very "adult" villain... and the Darth Talon concepts (which are presumably from ye olde GL treatment era) are centered on sex and seduction. One piece depicts the literal seduction of a Jedi who's in bed with a Twi'lek woman (presumably Talon) and then she steals his lightsaber while he's either asleep or dead in bed.

The only way I can reconcile a seductress villain with a young female protagonist is to imagine a Snow Queen type of dynamic between them, with the heroine saving a young male from her clutches.

@Darth Dingbat
Yep, that's exactly what it would have been IMO, which could have been interesting.

@BastilaBey
Who knows, Jett might just be a big Anastasia fan LOL. Daisy is a big Matilda fan and automatically drew comparisons between Rey and Matilda, but I think the Anastasia comparison fits better than a lot of other fairytales revolving around orphaned heroines because she's actively waiting for/searching out her family (just like Rey). Many other orphaned heroines are fully aware of the fact that they're orphans, even if they are descended from royalty. It's also common for the mother to be dead and the father to be alive, so there's that.

Gemini wrote:@BastilaBey
My personal take on it is that she is royalty/legacy descendent. Because Orphans in fantasy with no backstory or parents almost always turn out to be royalty or hero blood. But it could mean just the force also. I see what you mean

@Gemini

Hey, I've been on board with the lost royalty theme all along Though my favourite potential royal connection is King Prana (preferably played by Benicio because... mmmmm) instead of Mandalore. Not that I'd mind Mandalore either, I'd love to see that place in the film.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Gemini wrote:@BastilaBey
My personal take on it is that she is royalty/legacy descendent. Because Orphans in fantasy with no backstory or parents almost always turn out to be royalty or hero blood. But it could mean just the force also. I see what you mean

@Gemini

Hey, I've been on board with the lost royalty theme all along Though my favourite potential royal connection is King Prana (preferably played by Benicio because... mmmmm) instead of Mandalore. Not that I'd mind Mandalore either, I'd love to see that place in the film.

@Darth Dingbat

yeah I mean I'm only really bringing the royalty thing in here which is all open to interpretation. I'm not here to debate kenobi. I understand people respect the theory and it's not an attack if people don't agree. It's all fine with me.

In just fascinated with the name thing at the moment because I just noticed it lol. Also wondering if it has clues to what happened in her past if she is royalty.

There's also this speculation back from April 2014 about what Arndt's story was going to be about:

After ROTJ the Empire is never wiped out. It just floundered for a few years. Han and Leia end up in prison during a time when Luke goes away.

The main characters are the children of Han and Leia . Тhey grow up as orphans for the most part and seek out Luke Skywalker to break out Han and Leia.

They are in prison for like 8 years.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Gemini wrote:@BastilaBey
My personal take on it is that she is royalty/legacy descendent. Because Orphans in fantasy with no backstory or parents almost always turn out to be royalty or hero blood. But it could mean just the force also. I see what you mean

@Gemini

Hey, I've been on board with the lost royalty theme all along Though my favourite potential royal connection is King Prana (preferably played by Benicio because... mmmmm) instead of Mandalore. Not that I'd mind Mandalore either, I'd love to see that place in the film.

@Darth Dingbat

I'm sorry, what were you saying? I read "Benecio" and got all distracted



There's a very specific reason why she's not just an orphan because her scavenger parents got crushed under a pile of trash on Jakku. Of course the "parents to be identified later" part is why many people jumped to the conclusion that she must be Luke's kid. How much of that was deliberate and how much was just people going nuts on the Internet with their theories, we'll never be sure. Regardless, it's being kept a secret because there's going to be something which makes it significant in IX and more than likely, which ties it in with the main plot arc she's the lead character in. Like I've said a zillion times before, I wonder how much of the scenes with Snoke being a reference to Vader's discussion with the Emperor are meant to have any parallels with Rey other than "the awakening in the Force" mirroring "there's been a disturbance in the Force." That part may also be why people have jumped to the conclusion that she's Luke's child, rather than it being more about Ben being Han's son. It's definitely made me wonder if the meaning is the same as ESB, that Snoke knows exactly who Rey and her parents are. And that like Vader, Ren is lying his a** off about his personal feelings

This  post back from December  and is from a scooper and hr talks about the development for TFA and the characters:

So, on another topic that I suspect many of us will find interesting, I'm going to collate and summarize how most of the major story decisions of The Force Awakens came about. Please note that this record is incomplete (there's one major, major spoiler choice that no one is talking about when it happened or who had the idea yet - Kylo Ren being Han and Leia's son ), and slightly based on rumor, but in the last couple of weeks two invaluable sources have gone public: first, the book The Art of the Force Awakens, which stretches the record back to the beginning of 2013 just after JJ Abrams was hired, and a WGA panel with Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, and the "third man" in the TFA story equation: Michael Arndt. Entertainment Weekly has written up articles on many of the revelations there. All rumors will be in italics.

2010-2012 (various Lucas/Iger interviews): George Lucas begins preparing for retirement and looking to sell Lucasfilm. He comes into contact with Bob Iger, who wants him to sell to Disney. Disney is interested in a sequel trilogy. Lucas considers directing Episode VII himself, but instead simply prepares some initial story concepts. Kathleen Kennedy is installed as co-president of Lucasfilm.

Summer 2012 (EW/WGA): Shortly after her hiring, Kathleen Kennedy contacts Michael Arndt to inquire about his interest in writing the entire sequel trilogy. Arndt demurs, but accepts the Episode VII job. Kennedy's Episode VII pitch to Arndt is "the origin story of a female Jedi".

Summer/Fall of 2012 (EW/WGA): Arndt begins initial work on Episode VII in concert with Kennedy and Lucas. At that time, the plot is about "Kira", a young woman whose village is attacked by the villains, and goes to find Luke Skywalker. Initial MacGuffins discussed include the remains of Darth Vader and ancient Jedi artifacts. The villain is called "The Jedi Killer". It is likely at this stage that Kira is revealed to be a legacy character by the end of the script. Arndt discovers that once the story reaches Luke, it becomes hard to return the focus to the younger characters, so the choice is made to have the younger characters save the day at the end of the script themselves and then find Luke. From there, the story naturally moves to have the location of Luke be a central MacGuffin/mystery. There are even discussions that Luke may not appear until Episode IX, but it is decided the film should end with Luke Skywalker. It is also at this time that the initial male lead "Sam" emerged - essentially a Han Solo-type. The full Lucasfilm Ltd. company is informed of the decision to make the sequel trilogy in September 2012.

October 2012: The sale to Disney is finalized. It is possible at this point that the ideas Lucas claims were discarded are discarded.

November 2012: Rick Carter is hired as production designer for Episode VII, even before any director is set in stone. He forms a group called "The Visualists" who begin doing "guided imagery" explorations of what Star Wars is, visually. The team includes, among others, PT veteran Doug Chiang, and is one of the single most important groups within Lucasfilm in terms of breaking the story of the sequel trilogy.

December 2012 (EW): After JJ Abrams has initially passed on the Episode VII job, Kennedy meets with him again. Her pitch is similar to the Arndt pitch: female lead, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" Abrams accepts.

January 9, 2013 (Art of Force Awakens): The formal story group for Episode VII has its first meeting, including JJ Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan, Simon Kinberg, Kiri Hart, Rick Carter, and the Visualists. It is at this meeting that the "junk planet" Jakku is pitched by Michael Arndt. "Kira" being a scavenger on said planet is adopted in the same meeting. They pick five images from Kurosawa films to outline the film tracking Kira's journey from fearful scavenger to burgeoning Jedi. Lucas' outlines are provided to the group. Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber playing a critical role in the film is in play at this point, as is the "Jedi Killer" having caused some devastating incident that has led to the estrangement of Luke, Han, and Leia.
January - June 2013 (Art of TFA/WGA/EW): The "guided art" story development phase. The art department churns out some truly wild ideas to help inspire where the story could go as Abrams, Arndt, and Kasdan/Kinberg (in consulting positions) work to crack the plot. Some major points (and intriguing digressions):
-The third male lead is initially called "John Doe" because no one knew who the f**** he should be (Jedi and bounty hunter are both pitched), until...
-April, when in one single meeting JJ Abrams pitched both the characters of Finn and Poe and sent the story off in a wildly different direction. Finn initially decided to turn after seeing a bunch of rebels thrown into space by the First Order, and Poe ditched him at the crash (Finn was wounded, but found and healed in a strange ritual by a desert tribe). Then they decided to have Poe die in the crash.
-Michael Arndt and Dennis Muren pitched Starkiller Base, initially called "Doom Star" and was located on Dantooine. At one point, the Jedi Killer ate the sun matter Starkiller Base was powered by.
-The Jedi Killer's obsession with artifacts goes back to even before this time, but is explored heavily by the art department, as is the Jedi Killer himself. One idea in play was that he would dress as Darth Vader to mock Luke
-One intriguing art piece has a Force ghost of Anakin Skywalker - whose form would shift between light-Anakin and dark-Vader
-Another intriguing art piece has the first lightsaber - essentially a crystal with rope around it
-Going along with Starkiller Base being located on Dantooine, it was pitched that Leia's resistance would be headquartered out of Darth Vader's old castle
-Much was made of the location of the first Jedi Temple being in the Emperor's private archives...which could only be found in the ruins of the Emperor's tower from the second Death Star, which would be underwater. The Falcon would dive underwater, and Kira would have to swim into the tower - as in, where Luke and Vader's duel in ROTJ was.
-The Jedi Killer and his cohorts initially began as pirates, then evolved into the First Order and eventually the Knights of Ren
-BB-8 is developed as a droid named "Surly" who is introduced saving himself from a smelting facility in a wrecked Star Destroyer
-Han Solo was originally found in a location called "Crime City", even more down-and-out than he was in the film

July 2013-November 2013 (EW/WGA/TFA Art Book) - The Arndt phase
-At this point, many of the major points of the finished film are in play, including Maz Kanata (it is unclear when much of Kylo Ren's character emerged - all indications are that the Jedi Killer was one of the biggest issues in development the whole way through, but nearly everything else seems to have come up by now. It is likely that "Kira" was still definitively revealed as a legacy character in the script at this point)
-This one reveals a major, major spoiler for the finished film:  In Arndt's initial outlines and draft, Han Solo lived and got back together with Princess Leia. Abrams is unconvinced by this, calling Han "luggage". Abrams tells Arndt that Han's story has to have something "permanent" happen in it, or else the character's inclusion in the film is pointless. This is almost certainly the point that Han Solo's death emerged and, if I may make a guess, the discussions of how to kill off Han possibly led to the birth of Kylo Ren as he exists in the finished film. 
-Arndt struggles with the script, and ultimately finds that his timetable and Disney's do not line up. The decision is made to let Arndt go and have Abrams and Kasdan take over. Kasdan wants to throw out everything that had been done previously, Abrams dissuades him by pointing out that they would both be quickly incorporating what they most liked from previous development anyway.
November 2013-May 2014 (EW/WGA/Art Book/Assorted interviews of Abrams/Kasdan/actors): The Abrams/Kasdan scripting phase
-Abrams and Kasdan begin scripting. Most elements from the finished film are still in this phase, and it is probably at this point that both the Jedi Killer and Kira are revealed as legacy characters, and that they are renamed Kylo Ren and Rey.
-One major exception: Poe Dameron is still seen as dying in the TIE Fighter crash. The role is apparently offered to Michael Fassbender and possibly Chiwietel Ejiofor, both of whom turn it down. But when Abrams and Kennedy meet Oscar Isaac in March 2014 to discuss the character, Abrams decides that if Isaac accepts, Poe will survive. Isaac accepts the role (he had been dubious due to the character's early planned death, but ultimately decided that he wanted to work with Abrams). The script is altered so that Poe survives (much to Isaac's delight), prompting some additional emphasis on the X-Wing part of the final space battle (which was initially to involve a Resistance supership called The Juggernaut which would ram Star Destroyers)
-Another major exception: Captain Phasma. In one of their many, MANY designs for the Jedi Killer, the art department pitches the final Phasma design. Abrams loves it, but not for the JK. The script had featured a few different stormtrooper officers in tiny roles, they are now condensed into Phasma, with the idea to introduce Phasma here and do more with him/her in future films (Abrams is rumored to have initially talked with Benedict Cumberbatch about the role, but in May he goes to Gwendoline Christie for the part - quite possibly in response to the initial uproar over Ridley being the only new major female performer)
-Hux is said at this point to have been an older Imperial commander who survived the Battle of Endor, but they ultimately decide to go in a younger direction, likely to emphasize a particular characteristic of the First Order as compared to the Empire
-The design of Maz Kanata was supposed to have been finalized at this point so the character could be a puppet (sets were even planned with this in mind), but Maz's design is not finalized until October 2015
-It isn't quite clear when exactly Rian Johnson is hired, but it was certainly before he was officially confirmed to be writing and directing Episode VIII in June 2014. Abrams has confirmed that certain elements in TFA were tweaked - possibly by Johnson himself - to better prepare for Episode VIII. One guess would be the flashback, which initially revealed more of Rey's heritage and the full journey of Anakin's lightsaber. Another guess would be the interrogation scene, which at one point in the development apparently revealed Rey's full backstory. It is also possible that, if Kira/Rey was initially revealed as a Skywalker/Solo, that this was cut to put more emphasis on  the reveal of Kylo Ren as Ben Solo . Regardless, elements that hint at Rey being either a Solo or a Skywalker remain in the finished film, with more of them leaning towards the latter.

Now, there are definitely some shifts that happen during filming. What they are isn't quite as clear, and there are still definitely some mysterious elements of the process outlined above, but this has been personally quite fascinating to follow over the last couple of weeks. The Art of TFA book is really worth reading if you're a fan - there's some genuinely beautiful work that I hope appears in the next two films. Hope this was interesting and illuminating for people!

As to the rumors: my sources for these are generally second-hand, though these are people who have ties to LFL/the SW spoiler world. I won't go into detail here, but I trust them and their stuff has panned out (for instance, I was told at the beginning of June 2014 that Christie was playing a chrome stormtrooper commander). There's a bit of my own guesswork in there, but I've tried to specify wherever I go out on a limb versus what I've heard.

http://awardswatch.com/forums/showthread.php?39203-The-STAR-WARS-Episode-VII-Thread-The-Bluth-Awakens/page35

Thanks for this !

If the other thing is true and Rey/Kira was a legacy character from the start, if she was changed I think Lucas would have moaned like he did with the fathers and sons thing where he said it was supposed to be about grandfather, fathers and sons. Sam was pretty much discarded and Finn is a totally different character now. I can bet my left foot he was meant to be Sam Skywalker and probably Kira Kenobis love interest. Blending kenobi and skywalker through male line. Now, imo, it's skywalker and kenobi through female line and both names are lost. Must be annoying for fans and Lucas alike

May be a remnant of the old idea with Finn and the small hinted love interest.

With Pablo saying the story of rey is the story lucas left them and Daisy saying that reys story has never changed and lucas not whinging about her being destroyed and indication from sources close to JJ saying that her backstory has never changed. To me just indicates that reys story is the only consistent thing from Lucas treatments and she remains a legacy character, iwhich was meant to be a big reveal at the end of the film?

Well to me it is revealed but in a subtle way for sure. Rey skywalker herrings

@CienaRee

Thank you for that! That timeline is gold. Kira/Rey is the one consistent thing/character from inception to production. You can actually timeline the concept artwork to all of the development stages 2012-2014... it is interesting.

@Gemini

I could not agree with you more. Some of Lucas's discarded ideas was that the new trio be teenagers, Disney hated that idea because of the PT when Anakin the main character started out so young. . The two male characters have definitely changed, but the female jedi Kira/Rey is consistent through out from GL & KK, Arndt & JJ & Kasdan.

The only thing is I am sure Arndt stated that Sam was to be a Han Solo type, that is why I always think Jedi Killer was the Skywalker.