ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2

Think I'm going to compile all the gathered evidence that her story has not changed and try to get a full overall idea of it all.

I thought GL's treatment had Skyler (which may have morphed into Sam/Finn and/or Kylo, or been split into two?) and Thea (which morphed into Kira/Rey)? As well as Darth Talon and the planet Felucia. These were things that Pablo said were part of the Lucas treatment.

Btw, a lot of people are assuming that the concept art in the book is presented in a chronological order - so did I - but it's not. I can no longer remember which pieces made me realise this but I posted about it somewhere on this forum once. So the art doesn't hold clues as to when certain concepts were developed, IMO.

The text is presumably reliable, but conflicts with other sources (like the book saying that Sam the defecting Stormtrooper was thought up in April/May 2013, and JJ saying Kasdan came up with the defecting Stormtrooper, and Pablo saying that Finn was created in the latter stages of development).

As excited as I was to chat with filmmaker J.J. Abrams about Star Wars: The Force Awakens, I was even more excited to chat with super producer Kathleen Kennedy, who aside from producing many of the films of my childhood is the head of Lucasfilm — which means she is in charge of the future of the Star Wars franchise.

I talked to Kennedy about how she and her team are planning out the future of the Star Wars franchise, how George Lucas’ treatments evolved into Star Wars: The Force Awakens, the abandoning of the Star Wars expanded universe, what was being developed at Lucasfilm before George sold to Disney, how the theme park stuff is being worked on, the differences between the Saga films and the Star Wars Story anthology films, the collaboration between J.J. Abrams and future sequel trilogy directors Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow, and whether they can top Darth Vader with Kylo Ren. Obviously, some of these quotes were featured on the site last week, but there is so much here that wasn’t — so please read it in its entirety.

Kathleen Kennedy Interview: Star Wars: The Force Awakens and the Future of the Franchise
Peter Sciretta: I’m sorry to be the last interview at the end of your long day, but I really wanted to talk to you because I’m fascinated by the creation of universes, and you are kind of the architect of this whole grand thing.

Kathleen Kennedy: Well, with my team.

Peter: Yeah, I’m sure there is a huge team working on all of this. When you got brought on by George Lucas, how soon before the Disney acquisition did that happen? I’ve read a lot of things about it but the timeline is never presented very well.

Kathleen Kennedy: I sat with George in April of 2012, and the company was sold in September of 2012, so it was a relatively short amount of time before. But one of the first conversations I had creatively with George was about doing other movies than the saga films. And he had a few ideas he was kicking around but he was very open to where this might go in the Star Wars universe.

Peter: So back before he sold to Disney, was he planning to make these films?

Kathleen Kennedy: No, he was planning to retire. He was talking to me about making these films.

Peter: Who and how is it decided that the treatments that George Lucas had submitted for the sequel trilogy were to be abandoned?

Kathleen Kennedy: Well, here’s the thing. There are certain things they retained and obviously everything George created, you can imagine, every single person involved in this process hugely respects and wanted to know as much as they possibly could about the universe that he was describing. He had specific plot ideas that evolved. He sat down with me in 2012, and now it’s almost 2016, and you know the development process, where you bring writers on and once the story starts to take shape, it evolves. George wasn’t a part of those development discussions, so it was a fairly natural process of evolution. It sounds like we ignored him but that’s not really what happened.




Peter: How is J.J. Abrams’ final movie, The Force Awakens, different from what was planned early on?

Kathleen Kennedy: You mean from what George was talking about?

Peter: Yeah, like was George’s story more focused on the original trilogy characters?

Kathleen Kennedy: No, because the legacy characters play a significant role in this, and I would say and inside the balance that George was talking about to begin with. It was really much more to do with the specifics of the history of the saga. We changed the order of a few things, let’s put it that way. We didn’t make some wholesale change.
Kathleen Kennedy: We already have. We’re three quarters of the way through the shooting of Rogue One, which will finish on the day this is released. And Rian started working on the script for Episode VIII a year and a half ago. So he’s been in prep for a year. And he starts shooting in January, the end of January. So we need to be working a couple of years out in front of, at least in terms of the script, in front of these start dates.

Peter: So when J.J. is doing Force Awakens, did he also work on a treatment for the other films in this sequel trilogy?

Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going.


Peter: What are the differences between the Saga films and the anthology films?

Kathleen Kennedy: Well the Saga films are primarily the soap opera centered around the Skywalker family. The standalone films can be a wide variety of genres inside the Star Wars universe, and they very definitely have a beginning, middle, and end. They are not being designed to necessarily build new franchises. They are really being designed as standalone movies which is fantastic for the filmmakers we bring in, and the actors we hire, because it’s a different sensibility. And the stories can fall pretty much anywhere on the timeline. There is no strict guidelines for what we’re doing. Although what’s brilliant about what Kiri Hart is doing inside the story department is, we’re really looking at everything we’re doing. Our story group looks at and gets involved with animation, anything we’re doing with games, anything going on with theme parks, anything that’s happening with publishing, even certain things inside DCP. We are very closely tied to any of the narrative storytelling in those divisions because that does have to make some kind of sense. We don’t want something heading off in some direction that completely undoes what was setup in another story.

http://www.slashfilm.com/kathleen-kennedy-interview/2/

Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged? No wholesale change

Ok im compiling stuff also stuff that supports Rey random from tweets and what Daisy said etc

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Oh yeah the kenobi descendent casting calls for a 19 year old girl in the uk to be in TFA

Talking about female empowerment. Kudos to GL for hiring a woman to take over his company...


“George is a true visionary,” said Kathleen Kennedy. “I’ve seen him build Lucasfilm from a small rebel unit in Northern California to an international fully integrated entertainment company. I’m excited to have the chance to work with such an extraordinary group of talented people. George and I have talked about the enormous opportunities that lie ahead for the company, and as George moves towards retirement I am honored that he trusts me with taking care of the beloved film franchises. I feel fortunate to have George working with me for the next year or two as I take on this role—it is nice to have Yoda by your side.”

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Just to clarify: JJ was in the planning team since January 2013, according to the book. Rick Carter, Kiri Hart, Michael Arndt and JJ were working in tandem with the creatives. And Rick Carter had been working on this with Kathleen Kennedy before either Arndt or JJ were involved.

It's just a shame women Are not trusted with directing. Plenty are producers but not directors. Producers actually mostly dominate it all as well as the studio. Directors tend to have to bow to wishes

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Just to clarify: JJ was in the planning team since January 2013, according to the book. Rick Carter, Kiri Hart, Michael Arndt and JJ were working in tandem with the creatives. And Rick Carter had been working on this with Kathleen Kennedy before either Arndt or JJ were involved.

@Darth Dingbat


"Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going."

Arndt was hired in 2012

Darth Dingbat wrote:I thought GL's treatment had Skyler (which may have morphed into Sam/Finn and/or Kylo, or been split into two?) and Thea (which morphed into Kira/Rey)? As well as Darth Talon and the planet Felucia. These were things that Pablo said were part of the Lucas treatment.

Btw, a lot of people are assuming that the concept art in the book is presented in a chronological order - so did I - but it's not. I can no longer remember which pieces made me realise this but I posted about it somewhere on this forum once. So the art doesn't hold clues as to when certain concepts were developed, IMO.

The text is presumably reliable, but conflicts with other sources (like the book saying that Sam the defecting Stormtrooper was thought up in April/May 2013, and JJ saying Kasdan came up with the defecting Stormtrooper, and Pablo saying that Finn was created in the latter stages of development).

@Darth Dingbat

Darth Talon brings in an interesting thought- while I feel all our characters have borrowed elements from different EU characters, what if it is Cade Skywalker (and not Jacen Solo) who is the primary inspiration for Kylo Ren?

1. He has a complex relationship with his family, though his mother still has faith in him,
2. Luke (force ghost) is disappointed in him,
3. A jedi academy massacre is carried out by the big bad and some assume Cade is killed,
4. He is captured and spends time on the dark side as an apprentice but breaks away,
5. The big bad is a former jedi who has seen the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire (centuries have passed since the events of the OT) and 6. 6. Cade's first love is Azyln Rae, a fellow force sensitive. In this story, Cade is the legacy character- the rest, including Azlyn Rae are random.

I remember the rumors of a female villain for the ST and how it was changed...maybe they didn't want to give Kylo a complicated romantic history like Cade Skywalker had.

The Hollywood Reporter's Heat Vision blog quotes unnamed sources as saying that Toy Story 3 writer Arndt (and original Star Wars creator George Lucas) wanted Episode VII to be about the children of Luke, Leia and Han Solo, but director J.J. Abrams disagreed:

Arndt is said to have focused on the offspring of Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill), Han Solo (Harrison Ford) and Princess Leia (Carrie Fisher), with the original trilogy heroes taking on supporting roles. Abrams, however, wanted Episode VII to focus on the classic trio of characters, so audiences could have one more chance to enjoy them before a fitting send-off. The new characters, the offspring, will now be in supporting roles, according to these sources, and take center stage in Episode VIII and IX. Some characters have disappeared from the Arndt script and new ones are being drafted.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/michael-arndts-scrapped-star-wars-story-was-about-luke-1499732754

Abrams and co-writer Lawrence Kasdan (who also co-wrote Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back) have been retooling the script so radically, a lot of the roles that people had been trying out for are no longer valid. For example, Tye Sheridan (Mud) had been a frontrunner for one role — but now there's no need for such young actors. Also, one role that had been envisioned as a 20-year-old male is now a 40-year-old.

But apparently it's true that Jesse Plemons (Breaking Bad) is meeting with J.J. Abrams about a major role. Also, he's met with Adam Driver (Girls) and Michael Fassbender (Prometheus) about roles. Hugo Weaving (The Matrix) is in line to play an Imperial Commander in the film, which seems like perfect casting.

And there's one more piece of casting rumor: Heat Vision says Abrams is rumored to be searching for a "20-something female actress" who is either mixed-race or black. "The rumor is that Obi-Wan Kenobi had a daughter or granddaughter."

In any case, it's way, way too early to make any judgments about a film that hasn't started shooting yet — but off-hand, a film focusing on a new generation of Star Wars heroes sounds like a somewhat better idea than Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher taking center stage one last time. [Heat Vision]

Top image: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed concept art.


This story was published in 2014

“Early on I tried to write versions of the story where [Rey] is at home, her home is destroyed, and then she goes on the road and meets Luke. And then she goes and kicks the bad guy’s a**,” Arndt said. “It just never worked and I struggled with this. This was back in 2012.”


In 2012 there was no JJ, the only person that Arndt consulted with was GL & KK

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Just to clarify: JJ was in the planning team since January 2013, according to the book. Rick Carter, Kiri Hart, Michael Arndt and JJ were working in tandem with the creatives. And Rick Carter had been working on this with Kathleen Kennedy before either Arndt or JJ were involved.

@Darth Dingbat


"Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going."

Arndt was hired in 2012

@spacebaby45678

Sorry, my mistake - Rick Carter wasn't involved before Arndt, but roughly around the same time. Arndt was announced as the screenwriter in November 2012, and October-November 2012 is also when Carter came along.

But my point is, I find it hard to believe that KK had planned the trilogy with Arndt when the creative team (which included JJ) started work in January and they were still juggling different ideas throughout 2013. And of course, Arndt's script never actually came together at all. Had the story been properly planned already, the work can't possibly have been so hard for an experienced screenwriter.

But again, who knows.

So Luke's son was removed it seems (imo Sam Skywalker or skyler removed, based on what im reading, he became Finn)

Han Solo and leias is still there in the form of ren

And then there's Kira the mystery lead character he envisioned who was supposed to be the twist and big reveal legacy character at the end of TFA  . The one who appears to have not altered much based in what I'm reading especially from the producer who is the be all and end all of a film. Not just her but writers, actors, seemingly jj and multiple sources

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Just to clarify: JJ was in the planning team since January 2013, according to the book. Rick Carter, Kiri Hart, Michael Arndt and JJ were working in tandem with the creatives. And Rick Carter had been working on this with Kathleen Kennedy before either Arndt or JJ were involved.

@Darth Dingbat


"Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going."

Arndt was hired in 2012

@spacebaby45678

Sorry, my mistake - Rick Carter wasn't involved before Arndt, but roughly around the same time. Arndt was announced as the screenwriter in November 2012, and October-November 2012 is also when Carter came along.

But my point is, I find it hard to believe that KK had planned the trilogy with Arndt when the creative team (which included JJ) started work in January and they were still juggling different ideas throughout 2013. And of course, Arndt's script never actually came together at all. Had the story been properly planned already, the work can't possibly have been so hard for an experienced screenwriter.

But again, who knows.

@Darth Dingbat

But, Kathleen said she did it is in the article where she is being interviewed

@Darth Dingbat

Why is it hard to believe when kk is actually telling us that she did?

Straight from the horses mouth it seems

Gemini wrote:So a Luke son was removed lol (imp sam Skywalker removed based on what in reading who became Finn)

Han Solo and leias is still there in the form of ren

And then there's Kira the mystery lead character he envisioned who was supposed to be the twist and big reveal legacy character at the end of TFA  . The one who appears to have not altered much based in what I'm reading especially from the producer who is the be all and end all of a film. Not just her but writers, actors, seemingly jj and multiple sources

@Gemini

Yes Arndt was pulled because the GL treatment was focused on the younger generation, the new focus would be on OT with the new generation added.

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:Even kk is saying legacy characters are important and not much has really changed? Just some history of the saga re arranged?

@Gemini

It is not hard to figure out what changed... by the artwork, the casting calls, who got cast etc...Interestingly the plotted out the whole ST with Michael Arndt and not JJ or Kasadan... that was already done prior to their script.

@spacebaby45678

Just to clarify: JJ was in the planning team since January 2013, according to the book. Rick Carter, Kiri Hart, Michael Arndt and JJ were working in tandem with the creatives. And Rick Carter had been working on this with Kathleen Kennedy before either Arndt or JJ were involved.

@Darth Dingbat


"Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going."

Arndt was hired in 2012

@spacebaby45678

Sorry, my mistake - Rick Carter wasn't involved before Arndt, but roughly around the same time. Arndt was announced as the screenwriter in November 2012, and October-November 2012 is also when Carter came along.

But my point is, I find it hard to believe that KK had planned the trilogy with Arndt when the creative team (which included JJ) started work in January and they were still juggling different ideas throughout 2013. And of course, Arndt's script never actually came together at all. Had the story been properly planned already, the work can't possibly have been so hard for an experienced screenwriter.

But again, who knows.

@Darth Dingbat

But, Kathleen said she did it is in the article where she is being interviewed

@spacebaby45678

Could be I'm reading the wrong quote, but doesn't she say "No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt"? Arndt was involved from November 2012 to October 2013, JJ from January 2013 onwards. To me, that quote doesn't mean that KK planned the trilogy with Arndt before no one else was involved, but maybe I'm reading it wrong. I don't know.

Look, it's not that I mind if the story never changed at all (except that somehow they got rid of Darth Talon et al. which counts as a pretty big change in my book... but anyway). It's just that different sources say very different things about the development process and I don't think we'll find out the truth for a loooong time, as I said before.

But of course everyone is welcome to speculate about this. I, personally, wouldn't take any of this as Gospel truth because the Sam/Finn/Stormtrooper thing is a pretty good example that the information available is confusing. There's a big difference between the Stormtrooper idea being brainstormed by Carter, JJ et al. in April 2013 and between Kasdan coming up with it off the cuff after November 2013. And yet we don't actually know which one of those versions is true.

I'm sure KK was chosen to lead LF because she has a clear understanding of GL's vision. And if this is the case, then all the rumored early drafts and art would have undergone a lot of changes before the movie script was finalised.

For example, if they had gone with GL's early concept ideas for the OT, then Luke Skywalker would have been an old general, Anakin and Princess Leia would be a romantic couple, Han would be a big green alien, Chewie would look like a Lasat, Vader wouldnt wear a helmet and the sith were more honorable....this just shows how much a story can change.

Who's darth talon?

Gemini wrote:@Darth Dingbat

Why is it hard to believe when kk is actually telling us that she did?

Straight from the horses mouth it seems

@Gemini

It's not that I don't believe what KK says. I just didn't take her words to mean that she planned the trilogy with Arndt before anyone else was involved. Unless I'm reading the wrong quote and you mean something else.

Like I said, Arndt was involved from November 2012 till October 2013, so that's most of the development phase, right there.

@Panki

Seems like lucas originally planned to have Luke's son in there somewhere as well as Han and leias that definately changed (this is me gathering this from all things posted today) it's a son not daughter because Lucas said it was supposed to be about fathers and sons plural when talking about changes he was unhappy with

Rey seems to have meant to have been a legacy character who has a big reveal in TFA

Seems like not much has changed with her based on what I'm seeing and reading and comments from producers and writers.

I'll need to do this later because I'm on shoot

Gemini wrote:@Darth Dingbat

Why is it hard to believe when kk is actually telling us that she did?

Straight from the horses mouth it seems

@Gemini

KK says that her and Arndt mapped out the ST but left room for creative development, so what was the development that happened? Jedi Killer, Sam and the focus switched to the OT, JJ developed Kylo Ren, from his name to his costume. Kasdan creates Finn a Stormtrooper that defects... They switched Kira's location from a swamp to a desert.

The original trio from GL would have been a Skywalker male, a Solo male and a Kenobi Female... talk about a triangle oo la la

I like that JJ has chosen to go with one Skywalker Solo and Rey, there is no real triangle here. Reylo is it. I actually appreciate that. I hate triangles.

panki wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:I thought GL's treatment had Skyler (which may have morphed into Sam/Finn and/or Kylo, or been split into two?) and Thea (which morphed into Kira/Rey)? As well as Darth Talon and the planet Felucia. These were things that Pablo said were part of the Lucas treatment.

Btw, a lot of people are assuming that the concept art in the book is presented in a chronological order - so did I - but it's not. I can no longer remember which pieces made me realise this but I posted about it somewhere on this forum once. So the art doesn't hold clues as to when certain concepts were developed, IMO.

The text is presumably reliable, but conflicts with other sources (like the book saying that Sam the defecting Stormtrooper was thought up in April/May 2013, and JJ saying Kasdan came up with the defecting Stormtrooper, and Pablo saying that Finn was created in the latter stages of development).

@Darth Dingbat

Darth Talon brings in an interesting thought- while I feel all our characters have borrowed elements from different EU characters, what if it is Cade Skywalker (and not Jacen Solo) who is the primary inspiration for Kylo Ren?

1. He has a complex relationship with his family, though his mother still has faith in him,
2. Luke (force ghost) is disappointed in him,
3. A jedi academy massacre is carried out by the big bad and some assume Cade is killed,
4. He is captured and spends time on the dark side as an apprentice but breaks away,
5. The big bad is a former jedi who has seen the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire (centuries have passed since the events of the OT) and 6. 6. Cade's first love is Azyln Rae, a fellow force sensitive. In this story, Cade is the legacy character- the rest, including Azlyn Rae are random.

I remember the rumors of a female villain for the ST and how it was changed...maybe they didn't want to give Kylo a complicated romantic history like Cade Skywalker had.

@panki

That's a really good point. I always wonder how much influence the EU really had on all this - I'm sure Pablo tells the truth when he says that JJ and Kasdan weren't familiar with the EU, but surely that doesn't preclude any influence in the concept stage, because a lot of the creative team are likely to be familiar with it...

And I'm really glad Kylo didn't get Cade's romantic history. Yikes. Seeing him making out with Talon would have taken the fun right out of Reylo, at least for me.