ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2

Rags to Royalty TROPE

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RagsToRoyalty

A classic of literature, this Changeling Fantasy is as simple as it is sublime: the beautiful, hard working, put upon commoner girl who never loses her hope will be a princess or queen by the story's end. That much is certain, what varies is how she goes from Rags to Royalty. The following is a non-exhaustive list of common variations:
Cinderella Style: A commoner by birth, or with only minor ties to nobility. Nonetheless, through hard work, perseverance, and the help of some musical animals, she'll swoop into the ball and make the prince her "husband". Other classics of this type: Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and King David

Snow White Style: Legitimately royalty, but forced into hiding to escape those who plot against her or because she cannot act as she needs to as long as she is seen as royal. Usually part of a Fish out of Water plot as she tries to hide her royalty and fake being a commoner. May have to prove birthright with bizarre tests or special trinkets only the legitimate Princess would have. Other classics of this type: "The Princess and the Pea", "Donkey Skin".

Sleeping Beauty Style: Like the Snow White, she's royalty and forced into hiding for protection. Unlike the Snow White, she has no idea she has a Secret Legacy and is actually royalty. Of course, her Genre Blind guardians feel she's safer not knowing her ancestry or that there are evil forces seeking to harm her, or possibly they don't know either. You can guess how that ends. (Note: Named after the Disney version of the story only.) The classic Gender Flip version is, of course, King Arthur. It also features in such fairy tales as The Dancing Water, the Singing Apple, and the Speaking Bird

King Thrushbeard Style: A spoiled royal daughter who loses her inheritance due to her own actions and is forced to live in poverty. Fortuitously, when she comes to realize the value of what she lost, it is restored to her. Often as part of her humiliation she marries a commoner, who turns out to be a King Incognito whom she had previously scorned.

The Goose Girl Style: Those who plotted against the princess succeed, and she is forced into a menial position, or enslaved, until her story comes out. Usually, the princess knows who she is, but isn't able to tell the truth, and she may be ignorant.
A Gender Flip classic of this type, the Child Ballad "The Lord of Lorn and the False Steward"; it also appears with Ozma
A common technique is to combine this with Cinderella. The heroine wins the prince, perhaps even marries him and has his child; then her enemies triumph over her, and she must flee until she is restored. Bride and Switch is also common, just before the wedding. Such a combination occurs in The Wonderful Birch and The Maiden Without Hands

This is Older Than Feudalism, and has long since gone into being a Dead Horse Trope when used in a serious application. However, sweeten the deal with a deconstruction or other device, and this will work quite well in a modern setting.

Epidemic in the Fairy Tale, it often reappears in retellings of fairy tales. This is a common reason why kings who have promised the Standard Hero Reward decide instead to assign another Engagement Challenge, and then another. And another. . . (This is usually very unwise in the long run.)
Christopher Booker takes the Cinderella version for his second plot, Rags to Riches. According to his scheme, the hero seems to get everything he wants very early, only to lose it through a serious character flaw, which leads to the darkest moment for the hero (e.g., in the original Aladdin, when the villain had stolen both the lamp and the princess). Then, of course, the hero manages to face his flaws and gets an even better prize than the one he would have been content with early on.
Due to social expectations/gender double standards, male versions of this trope are rarer (especially ones involving a romance between a rich woman and a poorer man), but do exist in fiction and real-life.

May combine with She Cleans Up Nicely and Lineage Comes from the Father.

Have to say that I 100 percent disagree that kenobi is contrived when he had a canon love interest. I don't care if people don't know what the clone wars is, it's still 100 percent canon and no opinion of rey kenobi being contrived changes the actual fact that he had a canon love interest . @FrolickingFizzgig

Edit - imo the only real debate is if it was possible throughout the time frame they had known each other for him to have had a child unknown or not. That is where it could be contrived, depending on speculation.

Here is something I read about Maz's box today.... it is made of Wroshyr wood- a tree that grows on Kashyyyk. It was used by wookies as a weapon and as the interior of anti-slaver starships (which appear on SW Rebels).

This could explain Maz's connection with wookies and familiarity with Chewbacca (where is my bf?). Several jedi were stranded on Kashyyyk at the time of order 66. Some escaped but many were subsequently killed by Darth Vader. Could Rey be related to one of the survivors from Kashyyyk or be Ezra's daughter? Her picking up the wookie language and affinity to Chewie could also be subtle hints towards this possibility.

I'd like that,far better than her being Han's long lost daughter, which I suspect is a theory stemming from her knowledge of 'Wookie speak'.

Someone actually said that her knowledge of Chewie's language could mean a 'Force bond' with Kylo, who also probably knows that language, but I suspect the real reason she can speak it is so there was someone else who could understand Chewie now Han has been killed off.

Luke could never speak droid or Wookie , another nail in reywalker

I read that she learned it on Jakku, self taught. And yes it conveniently fills the slot of the only person in the movie who seems to understand him lol

Unless Ben Solo returns to the Light...........

motherofpearl1 wrote:Unless Ben Solo returns to the Light...........

@motherofpearl1

WHEN Ben Solo returns to the Light

Ditto!

So...my friend's dad, former Reywalker, just sent this to his daughter and me It's not far from average Reywalker's logic

Like it!!

Gemini wrote:

EchoBase wrote:I don't know, if this has been mentioned yet, but in the recent issue of the Star Wars Insider, you can find a really interesting article which discusses Rey's role as a heroine ("A heroine's journey", really worth reading). Rey's story as a heroine is compared to Luke's and Anakin's and this I find compelling:



There's no need to make her related to anyone important or a new chosen one.

@EchoBase

Jon snow and Lyra were introduced exactly the same way. they were introduced as no one of importance but ended up being royalty and sons and daughters of royalty and Heros. Their journey also started different to the usual hero where they find out early on/the audience finds out early on. Rey falls into this category. The one where the reveal is kept from both the audience and the hero right up until the end of a story.  It's quite a rare one but it still works very well when revealed. If she's really a no one they would not have created mystery in the film itself. Just my observation.

Official magazines and the PR team also called Jon a bastard and a no one before he was revealed to be much more. They lied about him on many occasions, all to keep the reveal more of a surprise. I don't think this is any different. I see them calling Ren a villain, because that is what he currently is. Rey is a no one when they write about her because that is what she currently is in TFA .

She does differ from the usual hero because her first call to adventure in the film does not reveal her as a daughter of anything. Again a clever misdirect. The second call to adventure though, oh that reveals more, it reveals guardians, it reveals destiny and implies she is someone of great importance. Her true identity which she does not yet know. very funny for a hero to have 2 calls to adventure in one movie....Jon snow is still awaiting his true call to adventure, the one that ties in with the reveal.

@Gemini

Sorry but Jon Snow was never 'no one', he was 'Ned Stark's bastard son'. And technically he may still be a bastard as we don't know whether Lyanna and Rhaegar got married or not before he was killed.

I simply don't think they have made a huge mystery of Rey's parents, they just haven't said who they are yet. I think fans have mostly created this as many seem to think that she has to be a Skywalker to matter.

I think whoever her parents are has some importance, but as Daisy Ridley said, I think what should be focused on is more the reason why Rey was left on Jakku in the first place. With how important Jakku is getting, I think the focus is definitely there.

Irina de France wrote:I think whoever her parents are has some importance, but as Daisy Ridley said, I think what should be focused on is more the reason why Rey was left on Jakku in the first place. With how important Jakku is getting, I think the focus is definitely there.

@Irina de France

With the mentions of Raiders of the Lost Ark (also written by Lawrence Kasdan), I've wondered if they might set Rey's backstory to similar to Marion's - she's pursued by the creepy Nazi relic hunters (KoR/FO equivalent) at the beginning because she has the Headpiece to the Staff of Ra. Her father made the initial discovery and implied that she keeps it as a talisman/remembrance of him.



Possible also that like Indy, somebody else will make her an offer to help him because of his pursuit of it

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:I think whoever her parents are has some importance, but as Daisy Ridley said, I think what should be focused on is more the reason why Rey was left on Jakku in the first place. With how important Jakku is getting, I think the focus is definitely there.

@Irina de France

With the mentions of Raiders of the Lost Ark (also written by Lawrence Kasdan), I've wondered if they might set Rey's backstory to similar to Marion's - she's pursued by the creepy Nazi relic hunters (KoR/FO equivalent) at the beginning because she has the Headpiece to the Staff of Ra. Her father made the initial discovery and implied that she keeps it as a talisman/remembrance of him.



Possible also that like Indy, somebody else will make her an offer to help him because of his pursuit of it

@snufkin

If that old rumor that @panki dug up is true, I could see Kylo making her (an initially selfish) offer to get her to help him because he needs the legacy saber to access whatever the thing is at the Jedi (Sith?) temple.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:I think whoever her parents are has some importance, but as Daisy Ridley said, I think what should be focused on is more the reason why Rey was left on Jakku in the first place. With how important Jakku is getting, I think the focus is definitely there.

@Irina de France

With the mentions of Raiders of the Lost Ark (also written by Lawrence Kasdan), I've wondered if they might set Rey's backstory to similar to Marion's - she's pursued by the creepy Nazi relic hunters (KoR/FO equivalent) at the beginning because she has the Headpiece to the Staff of Ra. Her father made the initial discovery and implied that she keeps it as a talisman/remembrance of him.



Possible also that like Indy, somebody else will make her an offer to help him because of his pursuit of it

@snufkin

If that old rumor that @panki dug up is true, I could see Kylo making her (an initially selfish) offer to get her to help him because he needs the legacy saber to access whatever the thing is at the Jedi (Sith?) temple.

@ISeeAnIsland

Definitely. Though as with TFA, it could be a McGuffin. Everybody talked about the map, but really she was the key because she already had the image of Ache-to in her mind. He may try to wheedle her into helping him (as Indy did with Marion) but it'll really be Rey who's the key. And during the course of what happens, he'll find himself trying to stay on track w/selfish motive versus becoming closer/more empathetic to her.

I just read an article about the casting of a possible love interest in the upcoming Han Solo movie and there were comments underneath about Rey somehow being a Solo. When the publicity machine kicks into gear for Episode VIII, I do hope Rian and Co will seek to unwrap a few of the mystery box layers in regards to Rey's parentage. It's probably reached the point where only another movie can completely dispel the Rey Solo myth, though.

@Mrs Ben Solo I think they might have to. It's got to the point where I've seen fans claim that the comments from JJ, Daisy, Pablo etc have been misdirection so that people don't think it's obvious that Rey is related to the Skywalkers. I should think that any misdirection/red herrings are actually part of the story, and that's why so much of the general audience came away convinced Rey was a long-lost daughter of Luke and Leia and haven't examined the assumption much further since.

@BastilaBey In some of the comments I read, people are taking Han having another possible love interest as evidence that he had a wandering eye. Illogical as it might be, given that this Han Solo movie will presumably be set way before he met Leia, it somehow lends weight to some people's theories that Rey is a product of one of Han's dalliances.

Perhaps they didn't hear about Daisy Ridley saying she wasn't Han's daughter. Maybe, as you say, some people think it's all lies and misdirection even coming from those directly in the know. I do think the Episode VIII publicity machine should at least attempt to dispel some of these fanon ideas. It might take them actually seeing the movie to get the message but keeping the hope of Rey Solo/Skywalker alive won't do anyone any favours.

@Mrs Ben Solo It's a tricky one, because on the one hand you're right - hardcore fans who are getting increasingly invested in rey being the daughter of Luke or Leia will be pissed if they have to wait over another year to be told they were barking up the wrong tree. But the GA doesn't care - sure, they came away with that impression, and that was by design. The writers didn't want to give away the fact that Ben could be set up for redemption and fall in love with the heroine in the first movie. Reywalker/Rey Solo sort of conceals those.

The majority of casual fans I've spoken to have said something along the lines of 'yeah I guess she's going to be Luke's kid...it's a bit predictable though, isn't it?' So they think that's what's going to happen, but they don't necessarily want it. They'll be receptive to twists, most people just want a good story.

As for the Han thing... yeah you get the sense in ANH that he's a bit of a womanizer, but that's part of his arc and relationship with Leia - it reveals him as a big softie at heart. Just because he had love interests before he met her, that doesn't mean LF are going to write him as a cheating husband.

I was just reading a NYTime's interview w/RJ's partner about her podcast about the history of Hollywood and even the NYT made a point of asking (and mentioning in the interview) that she knows who Rey's parents are. It seems to be *the* question for the ST. But in the context of that interview, it was a little jarring that they have to make a point of both asking and mentioning it in the article. You wonder when the details eventually come out, how many people are going to feel like it was a let down?

Silly question, but can anyone give me an example of opposite-sex rival cousins in fiction? I've tried researching and cannot find anything that refers to this kind of dynamic, as if it's a 'trope'. It's siblings or bust, surely - and even then, it's almost always both girls or both boys.

BastilaBey wrote:Silly question, but can anyone give me an example of opposite-sex rival cousins in fiction? I've tried researching and cannot find anything that refers to this kind of dynamic, as if it's a 'trope'. It's siblings or bust, surely - and even then, it's almost always both girls or both boys.

@BastilaBey
Eustace from The Chronicles of Narnia I guess. It's not a great example, but it's something? Other than that you're going to hurt your brain trying to find examples because it just doesn't even seem common enough to be called a "trope".

@frolickingfizzgig Right. The 'bratty cousin' is a thing, Dudley Dursley being another example I guess. But for it to be the central hero and villain relationship? Yeah, I just cannot remember seeing that in any story, ever. Reywalker only appeals if you're looking at the trilogy through the lens of Luke, as opposed to what it means for Rey herself.

BastilaBey wrote:Silly question, but can anyone give me an example of opposite-sex rival cousins in fiction? I've tried researching and cannot find anything that refers to this kind of dynamic, as if it's a 'trope'. It's siblings or bust, surely - and even then, it's almost always both girls or both boys.

@BastilaBey

I can't remember any prominent cousin rivalries off the top of my head, except maybe Moses and Ramses (adopted cousins in the Bible) and Queen Elizabeth II and Mary Queen of Scots (historical cousin rivals). Both same gender rivals.

I looked at TVTropes and found a few fictional examples (including a side rivalry from Naruto). It doesn't seem to be a very popular dynamic though and is generally a weaker variation of the sibling rivalry, or an extension of the parents' sibling rivalry. Most cousin rivals are the same gender and seem to have a history together- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=chl35bpsi2bgy3ox3jntxjr7

I don't see the appeal of a cousin rivalry as the main conflict (it's a weaker form of the sibling conflict), especially not for Rey and Kylo, who don't even have a known history together and their hypothetical parents (Luke and Leia) had no rivalry. Also, in the off-chance Rey is a Skywalker, the main conflict between her and Kylo would cease to be about them as individual characters, it would become all about Anakin/Vader and who will win (Anakin or Vader ) and that is really predictable and boring. It would be a wasted opportunity to explore the unique dynamic and potential for drama and growth between Rey and Kylo.

I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual early, and it has some interesting bits with potential ramifications for Rey's lineage/background/destiny:

- "I don't know why, but there's something about lightsabers that makes me uneasy."
- "We know that Rey is awaiting the return of her family, but who are they? And with her Force powers self-evident, what is her connection to the Jedi Order and Luke Skywalker in particular?"
- "We are led to believe that Luke is the last surviving Jedi. But with Rey showing incredible Force skills, is she ready to become a Jedi herself?"