Re: ARCHIVE: Rey's Lineage Discussion II - 2

by panki Mon 29 Aug 2016, 12:59 am

Rey's Survival Guide has an interesting entry- she is waiting for her people to return....if we combine this statement with:

- PH's confirmation that Rey was wearing a battle dress; and
- The description of the woman in the Force Awakens novel with blue clan markings (that Rey stares at),

it is possible that Rey belongs to some tribe or clan or group....and she might not be necessarily waiting for her family to return, but people from her group/clan/tribe to come back for her.

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by Gemini Mon 29 Aug 2016, 3:00 am

@panki

There was that earlier concept art where she was drawn very tribal with tattoos on her forehead etc. Maybe the paint was blue

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Or maybe she's making up stuff to try and understand where she's from. Didn't she do that with the ship? But then the tribal art on her head would suggest tribe ancestry.

by panki Mon 29 Aug 2016, 4:39 am

@Gemini

I agree that it is possible she is imagining it but but since it is confirmed that she was wearing a battle dress, there is also a good chance that the last people she was around before being left on Jakku were involved in a battle...so it could very well have been members of a clan/tribe/race, not necessarily her family. Maybe she is actually from Jakku and her people fled, and she got left behind either intentionally or by mistake....so many possibilities. Smile

If we go by SW canon and EU examples, the concept art face markings could be anything from:

1. Sith Tattoo (this most resembles the concept art you posted)

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2. Symbol of a rite of passage of a group. For example, Nightsisters.

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3. Clan markings. For example, Kiffars.

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4. Links to an organization. For example Jarael and the Crucible.

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5. Tribal tattoos. For example, Tusken Raiders.

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by spacebaby45678 Mon 29 Aug 2016, 7:55 am

panki wrote:@Gemini

I agree that it is possible she is imagining it but but since it is confirmed that she was wearing a battle dress, there is also a good chance that the last people she was around before being left on Jakku were involved in a battle...so it could very well have been members of a clan/tribe/race, not necessarily her family. Maybe she is actually from Jakku and her people fled, and she got left behind either intentionally or by mistake....so many possibilities.

If we go by SW canon and EU examples, the concept art face markings could be anything from:

1. Sith Tattoo (this most resembles the concept art you posted)

2. Symbol of a rite of passage of a group. For example, Nightsisters.

3. Clan markings. For example, Kiffars.

4. Links to an organization. For example Jarael and the Crucible.

5. Tribal tattoos. For example, Tusken Raiders.

@panki
Mando's still have Clans

"I'm Clan Wren, House Vizsla."
―Sabine Wren[src]
Clan Wren was a Mandalorian family from the planet Mandalore that was part of House Vizsla. Sabine Wren was a member of the clan.

I would stay this still points to Rey being Mandalorian

by spacebaby45678 Mon 29 Aug 2016, 7:57 am

A good article from December 2015 about Rey Lineage possibilities, he runs through all of the scenarios, but I particulary liked his comments about Rey Random and why it is not likely to happen.

Rey Nobody

It’s always been a weakness of Star Wars that the Force was so related to genetic inheritance. It’s possible that JJ Abrams and team are throwing us off the scent and that Rey is just a young woman of no particular importance, who happens to awaken as a Jedi as she’s being sucked into an galactic adventure.

Possible. But in storytelling terms, it seems very unlikely. Close relationships are fundamental to epic storytelling. If Rey is just the daughter of some random folks who forgot to put her back in the shuttle after stopping for petrol at Jakku…it’s going to be an anticlimax…and Hollywood does not like anticlimatic anything, ever.

https://damiengwalter.com/2015/12/20/so-who-are-reys-parents-spoiler-warning/

by panki Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:00 am

@spacebaby45678

I agree that Mandalorians have clans....but my examples were specifically about groups/clans/organizations which traditionally use facial markings/tattoos, not clans in general....actually I never really looked at early concept art for Rey properly- it was only today that I noticed the resemblance between the design on her forehead and the mark of the sith. Smile

Rey Concept Art

Exar Kun

by spacebaby45678 Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:21 am

panki wrote:@spacebaby45678

I agree that Mandalorians have clans....but my examples were specifically about groups/clans/organizations which traditionally use facial markings/tattoos, not clans in general....actually I never really looked at early concept art for Rey properly- it was only today that I noticed the resemblance between the design on her forehead and the mark of the sith.

Rey Concept Art

Exar Kun

@panki

All of the Kenobi Concept art has forehead markings, including for Obi in the PT.... m

by Darth Dingbat Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:44 am

spacebaby45678 wrote:
panki wrote:@spacebaby45678

I agree that Mandalorians have clans....but my examples were specifically about groups/clans/organizations which traditionally use facial markings/tattoos, not clans in general....actually I never really looked at early concept art for Rey properly- it was only today that I noticed the resemblance between the design on her forehead and the mark of the sith.

Rey Concept Art

Exar Kun
@panki

All of the Kenobi Concept art has forehead markings, including for Obi in the PT.... m

@spacebaby45678

Obi didn't end up having markings in canon, though... unlike those tribes and clans @panki mentioned.

Neither did Rey, of course, so who knows whether those markings are still relevant to her origins at all.

by panki Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:49 am

@spacebaby45678

I have seen that early concept art of Obi-wan with the backward question mark pattern on his forehead for the PT and maybe it is a clue....but the sith mark looks near identical to the one on Rey/Kira's head....and what makes it particularly interesting to me is that there is an EU heroine called Kira Carsen with sith parents who was separated from her family as a young child, made a living through salvaging things and is later trained by a jedi master.

But like @Darth Dingbat rightly pointed out, Rey doesn't sport any makings or tattoos so the topic of markings only makes for interesting speculation. Smile

by Gemini Mon 29 Aug 2016, 4:54 pm

Just on the subject of markings and foreheads and concept art. Crazy coincidence or deliberate? Only time will tell I guess. (It's killing me lol)

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Check the matching hairstyles

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by panki Mon 29 Aug 2016, 5:56 pm

I did a little more research on the similarities between Kira Carsen's story and that of Rey and the coincidences increase.....

1. The Emperor is a Snoke like character
2. Her love interest is a jedi knight who has turned to the dark side and returns to the light side
3. She also hears the Emperor/Snoke character's voice in her head just like Rey did in TFA...and he even tries to control her later in the story
4. Kira fights with a double bladed lightsaber (something predicted for Rey based on her using a staff for fighting)

Now for some visual clues:

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This is Kira next to the concept art for Rey/Kira..... there is definitely a resemblance, and even a resemblance to DR.

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Kira and her love interest (definitely a kylo type character)

by MyOnlyHope Mon 29 Aug 2016, 6:39 pm

Really interesting theory @Panki. I've also considered the idea of Rey being a lost member of a clan or religious order. The introduction of the Church of the Force, Gatalanta: the planet mentioned in Bloodline that Luke visited while researching Jedi lore, and various other forms of Force worship into canon definitely lends some credence to that particular theory.

What I wrote here really shouldn't have been redacted... It was completely on topic. I was just making the point that it should be okay for people to play around with their own theories about Rey's origin without constantly having to defend why they choose to interpret evidence (old concept art, for example) in a certain way to those who would prefer Rey Kenobi and interpret evidence in another way. Discussing Rey's lineage should be fun, not stressful. Enough with this touchy subject nonsense.

by Gemini Tue 30 Aug 2016, 1:42 am

She could be a member of a clan, she does seem very clan like in her early design. But what we see in TFA is not particularly clan like. It seems like it's removed either because they are hiding it or because they have gone into a different direction. But her story has not changed from the start so I'm assuming it's just to hide the lineage a bit

I can't see why they would hide it if it's a brand new clan they are inventing though. There's no narrative need for that because no one would have seen it before anyway.

Edit - just noticed they put the exact same beads in her hair like they did with that young obi wan concept art. Literally same shape, same length of seperation.

by Mana Tue 30 Aug 2016, 1:48 am

According to the TFA concept art, it really looks like the artists played around with who Rey was, where she came from and what her lineage might be. Ultimately, JJ, Larry and Rian decided on a path. If Rey is going to 'broaden' the story it does look to me like she might be from a completely new and unknown bloodline which can be explored as part of her journey.

by Gemini Tue 30 Aug 2016, 1:55 am

I'm just not sure they are broadening it with her, new blood characters in the canon in this movie have all had the background and parentage inserted into TFA, or inserted into the lore by the production. They have been given back stories and surnames . Like Poe and Maz and hux. There's no need for a sense of mystery if she is a new random character like those 3. That's not how they appear to want to introduce new random characters into this trilogy. That's just my theory on it anyway. She could be brand new but all the cinematic technique used with her doesn't suggest it to me. Too much mystery for a reveal of brand new blood. It's not necessarily needed for the introduction of a newb

by Mana Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:00 am

Gemini wrote:I'm just not sure they are broadening it with her, new blood characters in the canon in this movie have all had the background and parentage inserted into TFA, or inserted into the lore by the production. They have been given back stories and surnames . Like Poe and Maz and hux. There's no need for a sense of mystery if she is a new random character like those 3. That's not how they appear to want to introduce new random characters into this trilogy. That's just my theory on it anyway. She could be brand new but all the cinematic technique used with her doesn't suggest it to me. Too much mystery for a reveal of brand new blood. It's not necessarily needed for the introduction of a newb

@Gemini

But the thing is, I don't see her parentage as a big 'mystery'. I think the big mystery is what happened to them and why they didn't come back for her...even Daisy said, her parentage is not that important, it's just that people made such a big deal out of it. I personally don't care who her parents are.

by Gemini Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:06 am

It's mysterious when they don't reveal it, even after all this time like they have with the 3 other new characters like Poe, Max and Hux. It's mysterious when she says "me too big secret" and lots of characters ask who she is and call her the girl. It means something is unanswered. Like Finn. No one knows his actual name. Which means it's mysterious and people will be interested to know. If he was new character I just doubt they would have created all that mystery. Biggest way to create mystery is by witholding character information. Not going no surname and no backstory presented to us. They could have gone this route with Poe, Maz and Hux but they didn't. They have us information about the new blood characters.

by Mana Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:10 am

Gemini wrote:It's mysterious when they don't reveal it, even after all this time like they have with the 3 other new characters like Poe, Max and Hux. It's mysterious when she says "me too big secret" and lots of characters ask who she is and call her the girl. It means something is unanswered. Like Finn. No one knows his actual name. Which means it's mysterious and people will be interested to know. If he was new character I just doubt they would have created all that mystery.

@Gemini

Yeah, but Rey is the main protagonist. I doubt they would want to explore her origins in anything other than the saga movies, just as we have to wait to get Kylo Ren's full backstory in the movies. They can still be new characters from new bloodlines and there can still be an air of mystery...

by Darth Dingbat Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:13 am

Gemini wrote:She could be a member of a clan, she does seem very clan like in her early design. But what we see in TFA is not particularly clan like. It seems like it's removed either because they are hiding it or because they have gone into a different direction. But her story has not changed from the start so I'm assuming it's just to hide the lineage a bit

I can't see why they would hide it if it's a brand new clan they are inventing though. There's no narrative need for that because no one would have seen it before anyway.

@Gemini

This has been said often, but I'm curious - how do we know that? I know Daisy has said (I think?) that her background has been the same as long as she's been involved, but I'd be quite surprised if Rey's backstory has remained exactly the same throughout the brainstorming process and concept stage when everything else was in such a flux. At some point Rey even had a father figure on Jakku.

Apparently the trilogy was going to have a Force-sensitive female protagonist all along, even in the GL version, but otherwise the Lucas version sounds completely different, and what we know of the Arndt version sounds different as well...

But who knows. They're not going to tell us any real secrets about the development process for a loooong time. It's perfectly possible that Rey's background has been pretty much the same ever since it was decided that the Jedi Killer is the legacy child, but presumably the scrapped GL version had more than one Skywalker/Solo, so we don't know when exactly it was nailed down that there's only going to be one, that it will be the Jedi Killer, and that will raise the stakes. We don't even know when Rey's background became a mystery.

I mean... there's so much conflicting information even about Finn. Was it Pablo who said that Finn only came along in the last stages of writing the script? And JJ has claimed the defecting Stormtrooper was Kasdan's idea. And yet the concept art book says that the team came up with the idea of Sam being a runaway Stormtrooper in mid-2013 (can't remember if it was April and May, but even the date of the brainstorming session was mentioned in the book, as were the people present and it didn't even include Kasdan).

My point is, I think we can forget about anyone involved telling anything reliable about the development of Rey's story or at which stage Kylo turned from a random scary villain to the only legacy child. Rey may have been a Skywalker once, or she may always have had a specific non-Skywalker background, or her background may have evolved along with the story, but my point is - nobody is going to reveal anything about it yet.

by CienaRee Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:16 am

I have to agree with @Gemini.
I'm all for Rey broadening the SW universe but they simply should have told us at least her parents's names if the big mistery is what happened to them.Why have Rey not remeber who she is or who they are?If they did that so people can specualte to verbatum whether she's a Solo or a Skywalker it would be dissapinting since the actual movie tells us she isn't.I'mstarting to think they made a huge mistake by not revealing her parenatge in TFA.If it's not as important as Daisy says she is(though that somewhat contradicts Treverrow's statment that it would be satisfactory because Rey deserves it and she's important to the whole galaxy) then it would have been better if they had told us so in the first movie because noe people have build up all these theories and they have these expectations and some of them are boundto be dissapointed and it could have been avoided.

by Gemini Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:18 am

Mana wrote:
Gemini wrote:It's mysterious when they don't reveal it, even after all this time like they have with the 3 other new characters like Poe, Max and Hux. It's mysterious when she says "me too big secret" and lots of characters ask who she is and call her the girl. It means something is unanswered. Like Finn. No one knows his actual name. Which means it's mysterious and people will be interested to know. If he was new character I just doubt they would have created all that mystery.
@Gemini

Yeah, but Rey is the main protagonist. I doubt they would want to explore her origins in anything other than the saga movies, just as we have to wait to get Kylo Ren's full backstory in the movies. They can still be new characters from new bloodlines and there can still be an air of mystery...

@Mana

Snoke is not a main character but his whole name and backstory is also hidden. Hiding information about characters identities is common technique used to get the audience speculating. Like Jon Snow for example. It could all be a big misdirect. But there's always the risk that the audience would be underwhelmed. It depends. imagine if Jon turned out to be a no one after all the mystery built up. People would be underwhelmed. It's a big risk to do that after build up and witholding of info.

by Mana Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:22 am

Gemini wrote:
Mana wrote:
Gemini wrote:It's mysterious when they don't reveal it, even after all this time like they have with the 3 other new characters like Poe, Max and Hux. It's mysterious when she says "me too big secret" and lots of characters ask who she is and call her the girl. It means something is unanswered. Like Finn. No one knows his actual name. Which means it's mysterious and people will be interested to know. If he was new character I just doubt they would have created all that mystery.
@Gemini

Yeah, but Rey is the main protagonist. I doubt they would want to explore her origins in anything other than the saga movies, just as we have to wait to get Kylo Ren's full backstory in the movies. They can still be new characters from new bloodlines and there can still be an air of mystery...
@Mana

Snoke is not a main character but his whole name and backstory is also hidden. Hiding information about characters identities is common technique used to get the audience speculating. Like Jon Snow for example. It could all be a big misdirect. But there's always the risk that the audience would be underwhelmed. It depends.nagobe if Jon turned out to be a no one after all the mystery built up. People would me underwhelmed.

@Gemini

Snoke is a bad example there. People are only interested in Snoke because of his role in Kylo and Rey's story, and of course, those elements and his origins in relation to those elements will be explored in the movie...its part of the mystery box after all

by Gemini Tue 30 Aug 2016, 2:58 am

There's plenty of main characters who do not have backstory withheld in stories. In film or television, traditionally if you do not want a big reveal to happen with parentage, you insert the backstory immediately or pretty soon into the story. Batman, Sam from game of thrones. You are given the characters second name like frodo baggins. Rey and Finn have none of the above given to you which leads me to believe that there will be a reveal. It's just the way it usually goes in cinema.

Snoke was just used as an example to show that TFA and star wars lore give you back stories and names of people they don't want mystery surrounding.

by panki Tue 30 Aug 2016, 3:14 am

I agree with @Darth Dingbat ...... the concept art and the story seems to have changed at different points of time...whether Rey was Kira who lived on a swampy planet and was under LST's care, Kylo was a terminator style jedi killer, Finn was a pirate and then a stormie named Sam, Maz was Rose and little Kira's teacher in a class full of alien students, Poe was an elderly war veteran who dies right at the start of the story.....obviously things have changed a lot so we cannot rely on anything as 100% infallible evidence unless it is something that is actual canon.....but nevertheless it is fun speculating till 2017. Smile

by jakkusun Tue 30 Aug 2016, 5:09 am

For the life of me I can't remember where I read this (maybe it was on this forum even), but I read something about there being a common story where the young woman with mysterious parents gets help finding them from the dark villainous-ish guy? (idk if this is actually a thing, but I've been thinking about it for some reason. I really wish I could find what I was reading.)

I suppose Anastasia fits this. Dimitri is pretty crooked, but helps Anastasia on her journey of finding her past.

But the "couple" that really comes to mind for me is one that is very disappointing and I hope reylo doesn't go this direction at all. But it is an interesting comparison and might give some ideas for plot direction, specifically in relation to Rey's parentage.

Agents of Shield Spoilers:

And, by the way, you know what is really bothering me right now? This part of the script:

EXT. AHCH-TO ISLAND - STONE STRUCTURES - DAY
Rey arrives at a clearing. Small, modest, primitive stone
structures. But no one around. Rey walks past them, sees,
senses no one.
And then she stops. Feels something. She turns.
Standing forty feet away from her, his back to us, is a MAN,
in a CLOAK AND ROBE.
Rey stares, knowing exactly who it is. But she just stares
for what seems like forever. Until he finally TURNS, SLOWLY,
to her. Pulls back his hood.
IT IS LUKE SKYWALKER.
Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness
in his eyes, but there's something tortured, too. He doesn't
need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His
look says it all.
In response, Rey pulls something from the pack.
LUKE'S LIGHTSABER.
And she holds it out to him. An offer. A plea. The galaxy's
only hope.
HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER'S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and
conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise
of an adventure, just beginning...

Luke knows who she is and what she is doing there? Does he really?--what does that really mean? And his look doesn't really "say it all" to me. I still don't know who she is or what she is doing there. xD

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