ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

On this whole "what happened at Luke's Force Camp" thing, I think the fact that both Leia and Han were convinced that he would be safe to bring back home could be a hint of what happened there.

Think about it.  Had Ben done an Anakin 2.0, you couldn't bring him home.  He wouldn't be safe.  You couldn't trust the fact that he wouldn't just start killing people.  I mean it was one thing for Luke, a Jedi, to go into some lonely exile with Vader in early versions of ROTJ, but there was never any chance of bringing Vader "home" again had he lived ... even by the time Padme got to him he was just way too out of control, and the new books practically make him into a serial killer with how he just drops people left and right because he gets annoyed.

But somehow Han thinks Kylo is safe to bring back on the ship with Rey and Finn.  And does "bringing him home" mean they believe that he can change sides?

If he was a pure yellow-eyed school shooter, they might think he could go to exile, but I don't think he could ever go "home".  But they say, "bring him home", not "get him out of there."  The word "home" was said twice, along with "I want him back," and "We miss you."

But if he took out the Jedi Camp while in combat (they were armed), (because say he changed sides), Han and Leia could probably live with that.  He would have acted as a warrior, for the wrong side in their mind, but still a warrior, and he could defect.

Further, great importance was put on the fact that he was not lost forever, but was "seduced".  That word alone changes Han's whole attitude.  So what does seduce mean? Is it torture/indoctrination/manipulation? And getting into more controversial territory, what is the real nature of the dark side?  Is it a metaphor for drug addiction where one's mind is actually addled? It is a metaphor for "madness" (whatever that means in the GFFA)?  They talk about "reaching him".  If he can be "reached" like an addict or like someone in mental crisis, then he seemingly can "recover" and come "home".  So is the dark side like addiction, that once you remove the drug, you are actually dealing with the reasonable person?  Do they have hope of reaching him because (1) his choice in turning might have been impaired and (2) because there is still light in him? And what does that say about agency and the dark side?

I don't know the answers to any of this, but I got to think that either because of how he fell in some non-Anakin 2.0 and/or word they have received of how he behaves (like not killing subordinates willy-nilly) that they think he is "safe" to bring "home" somehow, whereas other darksiders never would be.

It always intriged me about the fact that Han and Leia, especially Leia seems to known Snoke before, and knowing that Snoke may had looked more like a human once,  a part of me can't help but think about a possibility where Snoke could had get really close to Leia and Ben during all the time that Han not around, acting as a friend or a fellow companion or even a father figured to Ben. Close enough to gain her trust. The scene where Han adamant that there are too much Vader in Kylo and Leia immediately correct him that it was Snoke doing, it feel like she's regret for not seeing it sooner, that she might subconsciously feel something wrong with Snoke but passed it as some nonsense until too late. Maybe in Snoke original, he had hoped the he could somehow corrupted both Leia and Kylo together?!

When I learned that people thought Kylo was duping Han in some way during that confrontation, I was like: 'Kylo Ren is not that good an actor. Adam Driver is. Kylo isn't.'

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

IoJovi wrote:Ooooo I just think I figured something out.  Feel free to correct me if  you think I'm wrong.  You know how Pablo is always making statements along the lines of "Rey was raised by sand....does not become a murderer" and things of that nature?

Many here are left scratching our heads he makes those kinda of statements.  Some think it points to Kylo just being born a bad seed if you will, which I dont believe that's the case for a second.  Yet he almost always follows up with the fact that there's so much more story to tell.  

I think Kylo being kidnapped or sent on a doomed mission is that missing piece.  What would Rey have become had it been her in his place?   She very well could have ended up just like him.  That has nothing to do with Han and Leia being bad parents - they loved their son even if they were busy much of the time.  

Combine Rey's knowledge this with her own overwhelming sense of abandonment and it's no wonder she doesn't want to kill him!

@IoJovi

EXACTLY! I've always thought that there was more to Ben/Kylo feeling "abandoned" more than Han and Leia being somewhat absent parents. There was some actual event where he expected to be rescued and wasn't, IMO.

Now, if Luke thought he had a handle on the whole situation, it could very well be that Han and Leia didn't even know that Ben was missing until it was too late.

@ISeeAnIsland

And maybe he thought they knew and couldn't be bothered to rescue him.
Rey waits all her life for her family to come back for her, Kylo waits for his to save him.....both are let down.

Be curious if they ever clarify Han's "too much Vader in him" comment. Is it a weird in universe meta reference to either ESB (first hand experience) or RotS (news that probably spread like wildfire once Leia's biological origins was publicly outed)? He definitely didn't seem too stressed about Rey getting dragged off by their son, even if he's already intuited that she can take care of herself.

And they have to do something with Snoke's reveal in terms of knowing Leia back when she was pregnant.

snufkin wrote:Be curious if they ever clarify Han's "too much Vader in him" comment. Is it a weird in universe meta reference to either ESB (first hand experience) or RotS (news that probably spread like wildfire once Leia's biological origins was publicly outed)? He definitely didn't seem too stressed about Rey getting dragged off by their son, even if he's already intuited that she can take care of herself.

And they have to do something with Snoke's reveal in terms of knowing Leia back when she was pregnant.

@snufkin

Yup. They've got a lot of holes to spackle in the next two movies. Tho the Vader line can be taken for what it is, Ben is just too Darkside, the one about Snoke needs more clarification.

Great speculation all around!

My headcanons around Ben s fall consists of few main points:

Yes, Kylo is the "jedi killer" - there is no doubt about it - "It is too late" on the bridge is enough telling in a sense of Kylo s remorse, and also Pablito repeats it as a parrot.
However, the circumstances are not clear, it is not definitely the situation of "bad Kylo" vs "good Padawans" out of nothing.
There is Snoke s influence for sure and sudden reveal of Vader s true identity. (Anakin Skywalker = Ben s grandfather)
Kylo s sense of abandonment - we can discuss if it is justifiable or not, but the hints on "busy" Han and Leia exist whatever some people think.
I do not think there were bad parents, but as per many hints they were not perfect either.

Saracene wrote:Kylo "luring" Han never made sense to me. Whatever other faults Kylo has, he's not a manipulator - he's very much what you see is what you get.

This. It is so simple.

Something I always felt myself on seeing the film.

Darth_Awakened wrote:Great speculation all around!

My headcanons around Ben s fall consists of few main points:

Yes, Kylo is the "jedi killer" - there is no doubt about it - "It is too late" on the bridge is enough telling in a sense of Kylo s remorse, and also Pablito repeats it as parrot.
However, the circumstances are not clear, it is not definitely the situation of "bad Kylo" vs "good Padawans" out of nothing.
There is Snoke s influence for sure and sudden reveal of Vader s true identity. (Anakin Skywalker = Ben s grandfather)
Kylo s sense of abandonment - we can discuss if it is justifiable or not, but the hints on "busy" Han and Leia exist whatever some people think.
I do not think there were bad parents, but as per many hints they were not perfect either.

Saracene wrote:Kylo "luring" Han never made sense to me. Whatever other faults Kylo has, he's not a manipulator - he's very much what you see is what you get.

This. It is so simple.

@Darth_Awakened

Indeed, very simple. And is one of many things that I appreciate so much in him: he is not manipulative at all. That's why I cringe when I read about headcanons where Kylo Ren uses the force bond to bring Rey closer to him. I have the feeling that he is the type of person that doesn't want you at all, if you are not totally spontaneous in your decision to stay with him.

ZenBrainJam wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:Great speculation all around!

My headcanons around Ben s fall consists of few main points:

Yes, Kylo is the "jedi killer" - there is no doubt about it - "It is too late" on the bridge is enough telling in a sense of Kylo s remorse, and also Pablito repeats it as parrot.
However, the circumstances are not clear, it is not definitely the situation of "bad Kylo" vs "good Padawans" out of nothing.
There is Snoke s influence for sure and sudden reveal of Vader s true identity. (Anakin Skywalker = Ben s grandfather)
Kylo s sense of abandonment - we can discuss if it is justifiable or not, but the hints on "busy" Han and Leia exist whatever some people think.
I do not think there were bad parents, but as per many hints they were not perfect either.

Saracene wrote:Kylo "luring" Han never made sense to me. Whatever other faults Kylo has, he's not a manipulator - he's very much what you see is what you get.

This. It is so simple.

@Darth_Awakened

Indeed, very simple. And is one of many things that I appreciate so much in him: he is not manipulative at all. That's why I cringe when I read about headcanons where Kylo Ren uses the force bond to bring Rey closer to him. I have the feeling that he is the type of person that doesn't want you at all, if you are not totally spontaneous in your decision to stay with him.

@ZenBrainJam

Exactly. Hence an offer to teach the ways of the Force post "it is you" look rather than "he will join us or die" in true Vader fashion.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

ZenBrainJam wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:Great speculation all around!

My headcanons around Ben s fall consists of few main points:

Yes, Kylo is the "jedi killer" - there is no doubt about it - "It is too late" on the bridge is enough telling in a sense of Kylo s remorse, and also Pablito repeats it as parrot.
However, the circumstances are not clear, it is not definitely the situation of "bad Kylo" vs "good Padawans" out of nothing.
There is Snoke s influence for sure and sudden reveal of Vader s true identity. (Anakin Skywalker = Ben s grandfather)
Kylo s sense of abandonment - we can discuss if it is justifiable or not, but the hints on "busy" Han and Leia exist whatever some people think.
I do not think there were bad parents, but as per many hints they were not perfect either.

Saracene wrote:Kylo "luring" Han never made sense to me. Whatever other faults Kylo has, he's not a manipulator - he's very much what you see is what you get.

This. It is so simple.

@Darth_Awakened

Indeed, very simple. And is one of many things that I appreciate so much in him: he is not manipulative at all. That's why I cringe when I read about headcanons where Kylo Ren uses the force bond to bring Rey closer to him. I have the feeling that he is the type of person that doesn't want you at all, if you are not totally spontaneous in your decision to stay with him.

@ZenBrainJam

Exactly. Hence an offer to teach the ways of the Force post "it is you" look rather than "he will join us or die" in true Vader fashion.

@MeadowofAshes

And this is why Kylo will never be "as strong as Darth Vader" from the dark side point of view.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Kyla Ren wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Darth Dementor wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm also impressed by how genuinely strong he is. I saw a  youtube clip from Girls where he picked up Lena Dunham and held her with absolutely zero effort. And I noticed how easily he carried Rey.

@motherofpearl1

I can attest picking up and carrying someone bridal style takes some strength.  I carried a girl, around the same size as Daisy, that way from a pub, we were at, to her car and it felt like a work out.  And I am a large guy who practices martial arts.

"Oddly" enough the entire time she was saying:  "OMG this is really happening?! This is so romantic.  Like one of those perfect scenes that only happens in movies."

But yeah, I guess she's in the minority with associating a man carrying a woman that way as romantic.  No one else connects those two things together.  Just her; the hundreds of members on this forum; and people who get married who end the ceremony with the BRIDAL carry.

@Darth Dementor

I had one ex who was 6'3, super bulked up try to pick me up when he was trying to be romantic -- let's just say that while I'm not super huge (and this is somebody who's pretty physical strong), he quickly put me back down on my feet once he realized that he could throw out his back. I read something somewhere that most of the shots of him carrying "Rey" is actually a dummy because likely they didn't want to have one of the leads get a back injury or drop the other lead on her head.

Between carrying her off and then the Interrogation reminding me of the car truck scene in Out of Sight, I pretty quickly came to the conclusion that he was going to chase her through that trilogy, but ultimately for reasons other than getting the map or being the Big Bad. Also to the comments about being starved, even under the weird/dangerous circumstances, it's likely the first time since childhood anybody's held Rey and also likely the first time in his life since getting packed off to Luke/becoming Snoke's follower that he's had physical contact with another person.

@snufkin

About the bolded:  I think that makes sense because I've heard AD say in interviews that he couldn't really see right out of that helmet, and also I think he mentioned something about tripping on his robes (not necessarily in that scene, I think he just meant the costume was difficult to walk around in in general).  But anyway, I shudder to think what would have happened if he had tripped and fallen while actually carrying her.  And months ago when someone asked Pablo about that photo of the princes touring the set and looking at a model of Rey’s head and asked what it was for, Pablo said that he thought it was from a mannequin that Kylo carried, but I think he said he didn't remember exactly.  So, yes, anyway, I think in the distance shots of Kylo carrying Rey, it wasn't really her.

@Kyla Ren

Hell what if he'd landed on her?

Still think final scene of this impressive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEcI0rD_SyM

@motherofpearl1

That's exactly what I was thinking.  What if he had tripped and fallen on top of her?  I guess it was safer to use a mannequin.

Thanks for posting that link.  I see his character on Girls seems to have Kylo's temper.

IoJovi wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:http://makingstarwars.net/2016/10/a-clip-from-j-j-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens-3d-commentary/

a sneak peek at JJ's commentary for TFA!

JJ wrote:People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time, if he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think, that Kylo Ren in this moment is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him, and I think that somewhere Ben knows this, but I think he can’t accept it. Deep down, he has gone too far.

@BastilaBey

I appreciate him squelching that "luring" nonsense, but I want to hear what he says after that bit. I didn't even know we were getting a commentary this early. Disney's just going to keep getting more of my money. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

It was in the adult novelization that Kylo "lured" Han to him telekinetically prior to killing him.  That never sat right with me.  In the movie, he's walking in the opposite direction of Han, and knowing he can sense his presence, it's gotta be on purpose.  He's trying to avoid this meeting if possible, while at the same time, not angering Snoke.

The fact that the story group admitted they never read the novelization is very telling.

@IoJovi

Was the luring telekinetically part from the hardcopy version of the novelization?  The reason I ask is that I just went back to read that part of the Kindle edition (it's been months since I've read it and I don't remember all the details), but I couldn't find any mention of it.  I'm really starting to think that the hardcopy and Kindle versions are very different because there have been other discrepancies between the two that I didn't know about until I read about them here.

Pablo said: "where novleization defers from the movie, movie takes precedence as canon."

We didn't get metas in a long time, and this Loneliness and Empathy is a really nice one:

http://kristinships.tumblr.com/post/148141617546/loneliness-and-empathy

I also think that micro-expressions in this moment are under-analysed by the community:

Now, I want to really focus on this pivotal moment, and for good reason: because it’s the main attraction (no pun intended.) While the fandom usually sees it as evidence for a force bond, it could at the very least be a last, desperate attempt to show he’s human, beneath all the red wildfire and chaos, beneath that metal mask. A lone comfort on a planet of war. He felt everything that she did, and surpassed empathy itself. They connected on a level far deeper than the Force.

I deliberately zoomed this gif in so that I could try to encapsulate the power of the tiniest details, and Adam is exceptionally talented at utilizing micro-expressions, so I will point them out and you can try your luck at spotting them.

The soft quiver of the lips. The profound iridescence of his eyes that seem to indicate the ghosts of tears forming. His eyebrows, furrowing, raising. The look he first gives her as if he is being bombarded with emotions he hasn’t let himself feel in so long. The almost pained, concerned expression he seems to be fighting against. Feeling her at his fingertips, broadening both their mental horizons.

He feels it too. He feels everything, and such a moment would be indeed rare for someone as guarded as he. There is something crackling, weaving between them. Two sides of the same coin, Yin and Yang. Their hardships are their own, yet the experiences are identical. Quite the oxymoron, but that’s the beautiful balance they bring to each other.

One swelters under the desert sun while the other freezes on an icy world, yet through time and space, they have felt the same exact loneliness that defines them both.

What did he see/feel about her? Look at his face right before he starts talking to reassure her.

Kyla Ren wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:http://makingstarwars.net/2016/10/a-clip-from-j-j-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens-3d-commentary/

a sneak peek at JJ's commentary for TFA!

JJ wrote:People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time, if he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think, that Kylo Ren in this moment is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him, and I think that somewhere Ben knows this, but I think he can’t accept it. Deep down, he has gone too far.

@BastilaBey

I appreciate him squelching that "luring" nonsense, but I want to hear what he says after that bit. I didn't even know we were getting a commentary this early. Disney's just going to keep getting more of my money. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

It was in the adult novelization that Kylo "lured" Han to him telekinetically prior to killing him.  That never sat right with me.  In the movie, he's walking in the opposite direction of Han, and knowing he can sense his presence, it's gotta be on purpose.  He's trying to avoid this meeting if possible, while at the same time, not angering Snoke.

The fact that the story group admitted they never read the novelization is very telling.

@IoJovi

Was the luring telekinetically part from the hardcopy version of the novelization?  The reason I ask is that I just went back to read that part of the Kindle edition (it's been months since I've read it and I don't remember all the details), but I couldn't find any mention of it.  I'm really starting to think that the hardcopy and Kindle versions are very different because there have been other discrepancies between the two that I didn't know about until I read about them here.

@Kyla Ren

Yeah, I also have the Kindle version of the novel and I can't find any reference to Kylo luring Han to the bridge. Although in the movie, Kylo didn't lure Han so it's not canon. I have also never heard that the hard copy of the novel differs from the Kindle edition. In what other ways do they differ?

I don't think the backstory will be that Ben was kidnapped by the KOR (although this may have been the story at some point according to the old spoilers that Ben disappeared). Ben committed the massacre as an adult so I doubt there was a kidnapping. I think if he had been kidnapped, the conversation between Leia and Han in TFA would have been different. It also doesn't really fit with Han saying Ben had too much Vader in him.

Currently, I believe the story will be similar to what is "implied" in TFA and the adult novel.  Ben was probably influenced and manipulated by Snoke since childhood (in person and telepathically). Leia knew Snoke was around and saw he was getting close to Ben, although I don't know if she knew at the time how dangerous Snoke was. Ben apparently developed some issues he struggled with (maybe at puberty because he was a normal little boy according to Bloodline) and was sent to Luke to learn to develop and deal with his Force powers.  Snoke must have continued his influence or came back and this finally accumulated in Ben making terrible decisions based on his own beliefs which were greatly shaped by Snoke. I think the Vader reveal may be the straw that broke the camel's back in more than one way.

In the adult novel, it indicates Han was surprised to hear of Snoke's influence and I'm curious if that is canon because the movie is more ambiguous about it (this could be interpreted as true or not in the movie).

there's no need to 'lure' his father anywhere.

the bridge is nice a for a dramatic setting but it's not needed to kill anyone.

I am absolutely sure Ben's reasons for 'turning' will be a big twist, and that it will change audience's opinions of him, because it's going to change Rey's and she is our main protagonist - we see everything through her eyes.

I still have this feeling he was abducted, or captured on a mission myself - something happened to cause such a rift between him and his parents, and if he was abducted and they genuinely thought he'd gone of his own accord it would explain both his bitterness and sense of abandonment, and also Han's belief there was 'too much Vader' in him. Both sides would be unaware of what had really happened.

Something just crossed my mind, after JJ yesterday s comment:

What would happened if Kylo saw Rey looking at them from above before he murdered Han?

Darth_Awakened wrote:Something just crossed my mind, after JJ yesterday s comment:

What would happened if Kylo saw Rey looking at them from above before he murdered Han?

@Darth_Awakened

That's a really interesting thought! Actually, if you look at the scene, I've noticed that Rey's attention is completely on Kylo during the entire scene. She looks nervous, but also... she actually looks hopeful. And if you pay close attention, Kylo's eyes sometimes quickly flicker towards Rey. One can wonder why...

So I really believe one of the reasons why Rey's reaction to Kylo after him killing Han is so strong is because she has seen his fears. It's heavily hinted she's seen more than "you're afraid of not being as strong as Darth Vader". So I think Rey really had high hopes of Kylo eventually coming to realize he has to leave the FO and go back to his family, because she can see a similar sense of abandonment to hers in him. And heavens know Rey's biggest dream is to find her family again. So when Kylo kills Han, she simply doesn't understand, and it angers her.

It's really not a coincidence if Rey is literally standing in a ray of light above and shining directly towards Kylo and Han.

Irina de France wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:Something just crossed my mind, after JJ yesterday s comment:

What would happened if Kylo saw Rey looking at them from above before he murdered Han?

@Darth_Awakened

That's a really interesting thought! Actually, if you look at the scene, I've noticed that Rey's attention is completely on Kylo during the entire scene. She looks nervous, but also... she actually looks hopeful. And if you pay close attention, Kylo's eyes sometimes quickly flicker towards Rey. One can wonder why...

So I really believe one of the reasons why Rey's reaction to Kylo after him killing Han is so strong is because she has seen his fears. It's heavily hinted she's seen more than "you're afraid of not being as strong as Darth Vader". So I think Rey really had high hopes of Kylo eventually coming to realize he has to leave the FO and go back to his family, because she can see a similar sense of abandonment to hers in him. And heavens know Rey's biggest dream is to find her family again. So when Kylo kills Han, she simply doesn't understand, and it angers her.

It's really not a coincidence if Rey is literally standing in a ray of light above and shining directly towards Kylo and Han.

@Irina de France

I am pretty much sure that Kylo is absolutely unaware of Rey s (and Finn s and Chewie s btw) presence before she screamed.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I am absolutely sure Ben's reasons for 'turning' will be a big twist, and that it will change audience's opinions of him, because it's going to change Rey's and she is our main protagonist - we see everything through her eyes.

I still have this feeling he was abducted, or captured on a mission myself - something happened to cause such a rift between him and his parents, and if he was abducted and they genuinely thought he'd gone of his own accord it would explain both his bitterness and sense of abandonment, and also Han's belief there was 'too much Vader' in him. Both sides would be unaware of what had really happened.

@motherofpearl1

I think this is the case as well...and I hope the special edition (commentaries) being released in November sheds some light on what happened to Ben Solo. I think we'll be getting information on this around the first week of November. The novel- Poe's Flight Log is being released and it is supposed to shed light on a few things other than Poe's own story and missions:

1. The circumstances surrounding Shara Bey's death (and Leia's condolence letter to Poe) and the fate of Kes Dameron.

2. Poe's espionage missions against the FO (this means there is at least one resistance spy in the FO- we might get answers about the datacard)

3. Classified resistance records/dossiers containing missions, pilots etc from the time even before Poe joined the resistance. (this should confirm whether Ben Solo was ever part of the resistance and was captured, what happened to other members like Greer, Joph etc) and maybe even a bit of information about the trouble at Luke's school.
1111

Um...
Han and Leia really like Poe, I wonder if Kylo knew that...

Sneak peek of deleted scene with Unkar Plutt tracking Rey to Maz's castle

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/18/star-wars-force-awakens-deleted-scene-unkar-plutt-chewbacca

motherofpearl1 wrote:Um...
Han and Leia really like Poe, I wonder if Kylo knew that...

@motherofpearl1

Kylo and Poe didn't grow up together, though their parents were good friends and fellow members of the rebellion.....I think Leia is close to Poe, probably because she was his mother's friend and he is around her son's age...but I'm not sure Han knew Poe very well since he joined the rebellion close to the events of TFA, and Han was off hauling rathars and illegal artifacts from Nantoon on the Erawana freighter (which we see in TFA). I like the name they've selected for the freighter- Erawana is the name (in Balinese) of the elephant of the rain God.

SW Cross-Sections confirms that Han was still really wealthy at the time of TFA and few individuals could afford their own Freighter...I wonder if we're seeing Sith artifacts make another appearance (this would be their third appearance in canon)....maybe Prana collects rathars and sith artifacts? It also means Han hasnt returned to smuggling due to financial issues.

guardienne wrote:there's no need to 'lure' his father anywhere.

the bridge is nice a for a dramatic setting but it's not needed to kill anyone.

@guardienne

I never understood the luring thing either, or the idea that Kylo needed Han to get close. People seem to forget that the guy could just Force push Han off the edge if he wanted to and barely lift a finger to do it. He was truly struggling with his decision.