ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me...

motherofpearl1 wrote:Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me...

@motherofpearl1

SW is a fairytale and characters in fairytales do fairly terrible things. Beast threatens to kill Belle's father if one of his daughters doesn't come to live with him. That's fairly terrible punishment over a simple theft.

“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind".
We were even right about this....d*mn.

vaderito wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Ashgate never troubled me, possibly because I saw Kylo as mentally ill from the start, and it actually made me feel even more sympathy for him.
Or maybe it's just me...

@motherofpearl1

SW is a fairytale and characters in fairytales do fairly terrible things. Beast threatens to kill Belle's father if one of his daughters doesn't come to live with him. That's fairly terrible punishment over a simple theft.

@vaderito

Same here - Ashgate never bothered me either. My reaction to all the hoopla was, "Well, it's not like that's the worst thing he's ever done..."

Still, it made others here think they had misinterpreted the character, so I can see that side to it...

Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind".
We were even right about this....d*mn.

@Xylo Ren

Remember how Pablo once tweeted, when people wondered how Rey could be so powerful and use a Jedi mind trick, that she got it from
Kylo's head. But let me guess, he was lying back then, wasn't he?

Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind".
We were even right about this....d*mn.

@Xylo Ren

It's 2 completely different powers though.

One is mind reading

The other is mind control

She gets the courage and does something she beckons from within but what she does is not what she was doing with kylo.

That was battling to get inside his mind and read it. Not control his mind.

And to think I was dreading J.J.'s commentary. A part of me was convinced he would say something that would leave our ship in doubt. I couldn't have been more wrong.

EchoBase wrote:

Xylo Ren wrote:“The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren and on the dim minds of a typical stormtrooper. She just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

Kylo awakened the force in her confirmed, tbh.
She learned how to use the force by being in his "powerful mind".
We were even right about this....d*mn.

@Xylo Ren

Remember how Pablo once tweeted, when people wondered how Rey could be so powerful and use a Jedi mind trick, that she got it from
Kylo's head. But let me guess, he was lying back then, wasn't he?

@EchoBase

To be fair, nothing in the movie suggested that was the case at all. Even I was a bit surprised when Pablo said that, even when it made the scene make more sense.

And like Gemini says, mind reading and mind controlling/suggestion are different skills.

So I've been out for day, and I come back in the middle of a huge party. What a nice surprise.

Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.

But it's not the same thing. The power she has comes from defeating him, he says that. Defeats a strong mind so it's easy to defeat the storm troopers weak mind. Kylo never shows mind control power. Only mind reading and breaking into minds.

If kylo could control minds he wouldn't need to torture people for information.

Kylo awakens force powers In rey, I think that's all jj means. She defeats kylo and does something which kylo does not seem able to do.

Xylo Ren wrote:Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.

@Xylo Ren

Pablo's words as well.  Someone had asked for an explanation of how Rey got so powerful so quickly, and his exact words were, "Wouldn't it be something if she got it from Kylo's head?"

That was also my first impression when I saw TFA for the first time.  

I also don't think the GFFA differentiates between Force powers in that way. If she took the power to read minds from Kylo's head, she also took the ability of the Jedi Mind Trick (JMT), which was his to begin with....

Xylo Ren wrote:Lol he literally just says that she is desperate to use the power she got from Kylo's mind. JJ's words, not mine.

@Xylo Ren

What I'm saying is that it isn't surprising that people didn't get that impression from the film, and that it took Pablo and JJ outright saying it to get it. There wasn't anything in the movie that suggested she got the mind trick idea from Kylo's mind. She just kind of did it.

Gemini wrote:If kylo could control minds he wouldn't need to torture people for information.

@Gemini

I'm sure he can. It's just nearly impossible to do on strong-minded individuals. Especially other Force-sensitives.

@Iojovi I was going to say - from JJ's description, it doesn't sound as if he's particularly concerned about the differences between each type of force power, or mind reading vs mind controlling.

hard to believe that Kylo can't do mind control on weak minds just because he failed with a strong one. Qui Gonn also failed with everyone's favorite Toydarian Watto and Luke with Jabba.

I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo. Literally says she does that because she overcame a powerful mind and so decides she can easily dominate a weak one.

She uses a completely different technique

@gemini I don't think anyone is saying Kylo gave Rey the power, she had it already but was able to do things after being in Kylo's mind. It just allows her to figure out how to do it, and it comes even easier when dealing with a 'dim' stormtrooper mind compared to Kylo's. I like this stuff because it's add another layer of nuance to 'you need a teacher'. Dude, it's a little late for that, you've already been teaching her even though neither of you really realize it yet.

Gemini wrote:I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo.

@Gemini

he didn't give her the ability, she saw in his mind how to do it or at least that it could be done. Like, I've just read this guy's mind, and he's read mine, and see that he can make people do stuff so if my power is the same I shall be able to do it.

If every force user just started controlling everyone with the force to get what they want, we wouldn't have a story because there would be way too much power over absolutely everything. I'm reminded now of the complaints with Lord of the Rings and anyone who complained about the eagles. Yet if the eagles delivered the ring, there would be no story. And I am probably very confused and have no idea what's going on in this thread. Do I make sense?

I want to add that if Rey didn't have her own agency in terms of her own Force powers, Kylo wouldn't have been able to "awaken" her in the first place, to allow her to get stuff from her head.

If that was the case, it could have just have easily been Poe that got back in his head and slashed his face...

Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylo gives it to her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that. Literally says that's how she overcomes the trooper.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?

Gemini wrote:I think kylo awakens her force power but that doesn't mean jj is saying that he gave her the ability to control minds. He just says she has powers, which we saw awakened when she was battling kylo. He then says she's able to defeat the stormtrooper because of her own strength. Not because of kylo.

@Gemini

And yet the problem remains that just about every Force sensitive in the history of Force sensitives has required extensive training in order to use the Force effectively - apart from the Ultimate Chosen One Gary Stu(tm), Anakin.

(And, an example from materials that are at least currently not canon, Vitiate and his daughter Vaylin, who were both Force prodigies, using the Force as little children.)

Gemini wrote:Again it's taking away from rey if the only reason she does stuff is because kylos shows her. Its her own strength not kylos. Jj says that.

Nothing in the film or from what jj just said imo suggests that the ability to control a mind comes from kylo. Her reading his mind, maybe?

@Gemini

I always thought they were saying that Rey discovered she was Force sensitive by fighting back, then found out she could do things like mindtricks with the Force by being in Kylo's mind and seeing what he can do. Not that he gives her the strength.

But if that's the case, the movie doesn't make it very clear. All it suggests is that Rey now knows she can use the Force because she just did it.

I honestly think it's still kind of a weak excuse. I understand the complaints about Rey doing that mind trick after just discovering she can use the Force at all. I don't let it ruin the movie for me like many people do, though.

Little_Boots wrote:If every force user just started controlling everyone with the force to get what they want, we wouldn't have a story because there would be way too much power over absolutely everything. I'm reminded now of the complaints with Lord of the Rings and anyone who complained about the eagles. Yet if the eagles delivered the ring, there would be no story. And I am probably very confused and have no idea what's going on in this thread. Do I make sense?

@Little_Boots

OMG the eagle theory