ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors -13

I want to know what happens after Kylo pushes Rey off the cliff and incapacitates Luke?  At some point Rey and Kylo talk without trying to kill each other?

This is a interesting leak...

Educated guess or insider knowledge, it's also plausible if it's meant to set up Rey for the same type of general coming-of-age trials Luke went through. Luke signs on to become a Jedi in part because of his eagerness for adventure and glory. But it's also driven by the romantic and idealized image of his father than Obi-Wan has manipulated. Luke sees himself as living up to something, which eventually gets turned on its head as he learns (and comes to terms) with the more messy and complicated truth. The part in bold is what they'll probably show about what happened to Ben and forced him over into Snoke's corner. Likely it'll also include the dawning realization that it isn't Luke who really needs help, it's Ben.

As for Rey, it's the same thing. She's carried around this idealized image of her departed family in her mind and been driven by that in her struggle to survive on Jakku. It also feeds into the makeshift family she forms with with BB-8 (getting him home), Finn (the friend who becomes the family member who comes back for her), and Han (nagged by Maz to go home, the tragedy of him trying to convince his son to come home, and meeting the wife who has lost her husband, son, and brother). Her relationship with each of those characters and overall mission is to return somebody home. To essentially act in the role for others which nobody could ever do for her being stranded on Jakku. So likely her primary reason for agreeing to go to Ache-to is to reunite Leia with her brother and restore something of that family.

Except that Luke will probably refuse for weird space hippie reasons and frustrate her by not co-operating and possibly telling her that she just needs to off his nephew. It'll go against everything she holds central to her personal code. And if they delve into what happened with Ben and Luke and why Ben ended up betraying his family, she'll get a full taste of how families aren't always like the ideal and romantic image she's held in her mind. Having to learn that lesson will be her coming of age, learning the hard truth and coming to terms with it to move forward. Becoming a full adult.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

nonesuch wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:So that's the first 40 minutes of the film, and no mention of Finn, KMT, Leia, Poe, BDT, Dern...? Okay

Much as I like "Kylo and Rey connect to each other through the Force", to me that whole thing sounds like somebody taking a bunch of different rumours from different sources and putting their own spin on things.

@Darth Dingbat

The person backing the 4Chan rumour up is someone who's 'in' with MSW. They basically said that some of the Luke and Rey bits match up with things they've heard but haven't published on the site yet. That's why I'm taking this more seriously than I would usually (since 4Chan is normally something of a cesspit).

And I expect they mean that this stuff happens in the first hour, not that it is a complete account of everything that happens in that first hour (so they're only sharing the Luke/Kylo/Rey strand, rather than going into everything).

@nonesuch

Yeah, maybe I have no instincts for this kind of thing, but the Luke and Rey stuff feels like it might be right.  He doesn't look too good at the end of TFA, and he looks even more off in the RJ Episode VIII teaser.  It would subvert every expectation of the GA to have Luke be insane ... that's why I could see them doing it.  Also, considering what we know about his story so far, it could work.

Also, remember that teaser started with a shot of the island in foreboding shadow.  It almost looked like a King Kong or Jurassic Park type of shot if you think about it.  That would fit with Rey having to deal with an extremely hostile environment.

The visions with Obi-Wan and Yoda are also plausible, at least Yoda ... because hasn't it been pretty confirmed that Frank Oz was around?  And if Luke is off, they may not "talk" to him anymore.

However, at the same time, a couple of the Kylo things sound fanboy fanfictioney.  Are we supposed to see the back of Kylo's head, just like Vader, and just not see his face until whenever? I guess they could do it, but it almost seems like too close of a match.  The getting swarmed by birds also seems fanfictioney.  Both could absolutely be true, but they feel a little "on the nose".

To swing the pendulum the other way, I could actually see them killing off Hux very early, just to knock everyone off their footing.

There's a lot to chew here.  In a spoiler drought, this is at least something we can play around with, as opposed to just laugh at.

@SoloSideCousin
Well, if the birds were rumoured to be Luke's sort of companions on the island I don't think it's totally fanfictional to imagine that they would attack Kylo. But the timing definitely seems too convenient IMO, what with MSW's most recent leak involving birds as well, like someone just tacked on the birds bit to make it fit with the leak. But yeah, I don't find any of it hard to believe and it definitely falls in line with various leaks and predictions. And I'm with you on the Rey/Luke stuff, it actually feels pretty on-the-nose.

As for Rey possibly being the personification of the light side (or something similar to that, a chosen one that extends into the mythology of the Force itself). I've said this before, but I'm keeping an open mind as far as that goes because I don't think it's impossible that Rey is going to end up being a really particular kind of heroine, the Star Wars equivalent of FF7's Aerith. Others have said before that it would be too dark, but it depends on how it's handled. Certain characters are meant to fulfill a greater purpose and return to the "earth" (or the life-stream or the spirit world or the Force, whatever). That could be Rey, and it could not be. But it's definitely a trope that has been utilized in both adult and children's fiction for all ages, and bittersweet as anything. I wouldn't be against them pulling something like this off. Or not. Who knows. xD

Big grain of salt and all that, as per usual. But as far as Reddit/4Chan "leaks" go, this isn't a bad one.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

nonesuch wrote:>rey and kylo connect to each other w/ the force
>he arrives on planet and they fight and kylo knocks rey off cliff and incapacitates luke
>kylo ren gets swarmed by birds

@nonesuch

I love you Kylo but I will pay $12 to watch you get swarmed by birds. Srsly tho, the birds were a recent reveal from MSW and suddenly they have a starring role in all of these supposed leaks. I don't personally think they're meant to do anything major although their symbolism will no doubt be important and they could offer some guidance to the main characters at most.

I don't see Kylo deliberately pushing Rey off the cliff; he might, I'm sure after Snoke's training he'll think he wants to kill her even if deep down he really doesn't. In TFA his compassion for her was holding him back and I think we're going to see that role get reversed in VIII. This time it'll be Rey who has compassion for him and doesn't want to fight. There will probably be interesting dialogue and I can see her making the choice to fall.

I'm side-eyeing the bit where a helmet gets lowered onto Kylo and we're only shown this from behind like with Vader. I do think the extensiveness of his injuries will be kept a secret for now because it could mean all the difference between Kylo's descent into becoming more machine than man, or if he's been spared that fate and will have more of an attractive/anti-hero scar that doesn't exempt him from being a love interest.

But yeah. As @FrolickingFizzgig mentioned before, you can pretty much always spot the agenda behind these fake leaks. I think the person who wrote this one is yet another fanboy hoping for a more Vader-like, bad*** Kylo Ren in the next installment.

@WhatGirl

I'm with you on the Kylo-getting-swarmed-by-birds bit!

If that happened, or something like that happened, it would explain why no one knew what the heck happens to Kylo after Rey disappears over the edge of the cliff. I'd think that the "birds" would be done via CGI, so that would explain why that part wasn't actually filmed on the Irish cliffs.

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh, I agree - I can't see Rey giving up, even if Luke does turn out to be insane.

But from a practical standpoint, I can't imagine Chewie just standing there if the fauna on the island are actively trying to kill Rey

@Darth Dingbat

I hear you.  I don't think he'd stand there either, but I could see them getting separated and him trying to find her while she's fallen in some hole under a tree "having her vision'.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

nonesuch wrote:>rey and kylo connect to each other w/ the force
>he arrives on planet and they fight and kylo knocks rey off cliff and incapacitates luke
>kylo ren gets swarmed by birds

@nonesuch

I love you Kylo but I will pay $12 to watch you get swarmed by birds. Srsly tho, the birds were a recent reveal from MSW and suddenly they have a starring role in all of these supposed leaks. I don't personally think they're meant to do anything major although their symbolism will no doubt be important and they could offer some guidance to the main characters at most.

I don't see Kylo deliberately pushing Rey off the cliff; he might, I'm sure after Snoke's training he'll think he wants to kill her even if deep down he really doesn't. In TFA his compassion for her was holding him back and I think we're going to see that role get reversed in VIII. This time it'll be Rey who has compassion for him and doesn't want to fight. There will probably be interesting dialogue and I can see her making the choice to fall.

I'm side-eyeing the bit where a helmet gets lowered onto Kylo and we're only shown this from behind like with Vader. I do think the extensiveness of his injuries will be kept a secret for now because it could mean all the difference between Kylo's descent into becoming more machine than man, or if he's been spared that fate and will have more of an attractive/anti-hero scar that doesn't exempt him from being a love interest.

But yeah. As @FrolickingFizzgig mentioned before, you can pretty much always spot the agenda behind these fake leaks. I think the person who wrote this one is yet another fanboy hoping for a more Vader-like, bad*** Kylo Ren in the next installment.

@WhatGirl

I'm with you on the Kylo-getting-swarmed-by-birds bit!

If that happened, or something like that happened, it would explain why no one knew what the heck happens to Kylo after Rey disappears over the edge of the cliff. I'd think that the "birds" would be done via CGI, so that would explain why that part wasn't actually filmed on the Irish cliffs.

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh, I agree - I can't see Rey giving up, even if Luke does turn out to be insane.

But from a practical standpoint, I can't imagine Chewie just standing there if the fauna on the island are actively trying to kill Rey

@Darth Dingbat

I hear you.  I don't think he'd stand there either, but I could see them getting separated and him trying to find her while she's fallen in some hole under a tree "having her vision'.

@SoloSideCousin
Plot twist, Chewie joins the fauna and tries to attack Kylo and Rey.

snufkin wrote:Educated guess or insider knowledge, it's also plausible if it's meant to set up Rey for the same type of general coming-of-age trials Luke went through. Luke signs on to become a Jedi in part because of his eagerness for adventure and glory. But it's also driven by the romantic and idealized image of his father than Obi-Wan has manipulated. Luke sees himself as living up to something, which eventually gets turned on its head as he learns (and comes to terms) with the more messy and complicated truth. The part in bold is what they'll probably show about what happened to Ben and forced him over into Snoke's corner. Likely it'll also include the dawning realization that it isn't Luke who really needs help, it's Ben.

As for Rey, it's the same thing. She's carried around this idealized image of her departed family in her mind and been driven by that in her struggle to survive on Jakku. It also feeds into the makeshift family she forms with with BB-8 (getting him home), Finn (the friend who becomes the family member who comes back for her), and Han (nagged by Maz to go home, the tragedy of him trying to convince his son to come home, and meeting the wife who has lost her husband, son, and brother). Her relationship with each of those characters and overall mission is to return somebody home. To essentially act in the role for others which nobody could ever do for her being stranded on Jakku. So likely her primary reason for agreeing to go to Ache-to is to reunite Leia with her brother and restore something of that family.

Except that Luke will probably refuse for weird space hippie reasons and frustrate her by not co-operating and possibly telling her that she just needs to off his nephew. It'll go against everything she holds central to her personal code. And if they delve into what happened with Ben and Luke and why Ben ended up betraying his family, she'll get a full taste of how families aren't always like the ideal and romantic image she's held in her mind. Having to learn that lesson will be her coming of age, learning the hard truth and coming to terms with it to move forward. Becoming a full adult.

@snufkin

I agree entirely, and that's why I think the concept of "family" it's so important in Rey's arc. Not because she is the daughter of someone extremely important, but because she is this humble, lost girl who always longed for a family. That's literally the only thing she wants: a family. All of a sudden she is in the middle of a huge conflict and its central point is... another family. She gets involved with the Skywalker-Solo family in a way that changes her whole life. Her bloodline is irrelevant here, the main conflict happens when she meets her new "family". Her friends, Han and Leia, Luke and Kylo.

To be honest, I personally wouldn't fixate on the details of that leak itself (birds! birds! birds! or as someone on Reddit said, "Written and directed by a bird"). It doesn't matter, IMO, if the leak is somebody's invention or has grains of truth...

The more interesting detail here is that confirmation from that someone-in-the-know that the Rey/Luke stuff sounds accurate, based on what they've heard.

Luke being insane and disappointing Rey in some way, and Rey not finding Ahch-To a welcoming place at all, is something that's been speculated a lot at least since the first teaser clip where Luke looked angry and kind of demented.

It's a very interesting possibility, to be sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be the case - especially since Mark would probably like something a bit more challenging from an acting standpoint than "awesome Luke is awesome".

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

nonesuch wrote:>rey and kylo connect to each other w/ the force
>he arrives on planet and they fight and kylo knocks rey off cliff and incapacitates luke
>kylo ren gets swarmed by birds

@nonesuch

I love you Kylo but I will pay $12 to watch you get swarmed by birds. Srsly tho, the birds were a recent reveal from MSW and suddenly they have a starring role in all of these supposed leaks. I don't personally think they're meant to do anything major although their symbolism will no doubt be important and they could offer some guidance to the main characters at most.

I don't see Kylo deliberately pushing Rey off the cliff; he might, I'm sure after Snoke's training he'll think he wants to kill her even if deep down he really doesn't. In TFA his compassion for her was holding him back and I think we're going to see that role get reversed in VIII. This time it'll be Rey who has compassion for him and doesn't want to fight. There will probably be interesting dialogue and I can see her making the choice to fall.

I'm side-eyeing the bit where a helmet gets lowered onto Kylo and we're only shown this from behind like with Vader. I do think the extensiveness of his injuries will be kept a secret for now because it could mean all the difference between Kylo's descent into becoming more machine than man, or if he's been spared that fate and will have more of an attractive/anti-hero scar that doesn't exempt him from being a love interest.

But yeah. As @FrolickingFizzgig mentioned before, you can pretty much always spot the agenda behind these fake leaks. I think the person who wrote this one is yet another fanboy hoping for a more Vader-like, bad*** Kylo Ren in the next installment.

@WhatGirl

I'm with you on the Kylo-getting-swarmed-by-birds bit!

If that happened, or something like that happened, it would explain why no one knew what the heck happens to Kylo after Rey disappears over the edge of the cliff. I'd think that the "birds" would be done via CGI, so that would explain why that part wasn't actually filmed on the Irish cliffs.

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh, I agree - I can't see Rey giving up, even if Luke does turn out to be insane.

But from a practical standpoint, I can't imagine Chewie just standing there if the fauna on the island are actively trying to kill Rey

@Darth Dingbat

I hear you.  I don't think he'd stand there either, but I could see them getting separated and him trying to find her while she's fallen in some hole under a tree "having her vision'.

@SoloSideCousin
Plot twist, Chewie joins the fauna and tries to attack Kylo and Rey.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Another plot twist - Chewie is actually Snoke!

I'll try to sum it up a bit and connect to what we know so far (from MSW mostly)

VIII starts w/ kylo ren in bacta tank
>we see back of his head as helmet placed down like vader in ESB

Given his state after TFA - it's more than plausible (and exciting   )

>snoke kills hux w/ the force while stationary in his throne

The bit I have most problem with: Why? and why so early in the movie? If true - who's going to replace him as FO General?

>luke is insane
>talks to animals

Yoda in ESB also had insane vibe comparing to PT Yoda

>he disappears, again

Actually there's video out there took in Ireland - of Luke meditating alone on the rock

>rey has to fend for herself on island where everything wants her dead
>fights a giant loch ness monster

MSW spoiler on convorees and sea monster

>gets chased/lead by birds into a giant tree

Tree is there, we saw it.
>

rey trips balls and meets obi-wan and yoda

and see what? perhaps the vision of Jedi Academy fall?

>wakes up to luke standing above her and a bird w/ giant eyes
>tells rey she has to kill kylo ren
>rey doesn't want to

becuase she saw someting in a vision or by the influence of Yoda and Obi ?

rey and kylo connect to each other w/ the force
he arrives on planet and they fight and kylo knocks rey off cliff and incapacitates luke
kylo ren gets swarmed by birds

We'll see I guess.

The questions: where are the others? R2, Chewie, KOR
No mention of huts.
No mention of training.

Darth Dingbat wrote:To be honest, I personally wouldn't fixate on the details of that leak itself (birds! birds! birds! or as someone on Reddit said, "Written and directed by a bird"). It doesn't matter, IMO, if the leak is somebody's invention or has grains of truth...

The more interesting detail here is that confirmation from that someone-in-the-know that the Rey/Luke stuff sounds accurate, based on what they've heard.

Luke being insane and disappointing Rey in some way, and Rey not finding Ahch-To a welcoming place at all, is something that's been speculated a lot at least since the first teaser clip where Luke looked angry and kind of demented.

It's a very interesting possibility, to be sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be the case - especially since Mark would probably like something a bit more challenging from an acting standpoint than "awesome Luke is awesome".

@Darth Dingbat

It would also explain why Luke would ask Rey to kill Kylo.Luke in his right mind wouldn't ask this(bot only because Kylo's his newphew but also because of the pain he would cause his dear sister) but cray Luke?Hell,yeah,it would also be an interesting thing to explore because if you think about it Luke has went through so much in his youth with finding out Vader's his father and almsot being killed by Palpatine and later when Ben falls to the DS.If he believes Kylo killed his students and blames himself it's totally in character for him to have a mental breakdown and it also gives a plausbale explanation as to why he wouldn't help Leia and the Resistance.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

nonesuch wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:So that's the first 40 minutes of the film, and no mention of Finn, KMT, Leia, Poe, BDT, Dern...? Okay

Much as I like "Kylo and Rey connect to each other through the Force", to me that whole thing sounds like somebody taking a bunch of different rumours from different sources and putting their own spin on things.

@Darth Dingbat

The person backing the 4Chan rumour up is someone who's 'in' with MSW. They basically said that some of the Luke and Rey bits match up with things they've heard but haven't published on the site yet. That's why I'm taking this more seriously than I would usually (since 4Chan is normally something of a cesspit).

And I expect they mean that this stuff happens in the first hour, not that it is a complete account of everything that happens in that first hour (so they're only sharing the Luke/Kylo/Rey strand, rather than going into everything).

@nonesuch

Yeah, maybe I have no instincts for this kind of thing, but the Luke and Rey stuff feels like it might be right.  He doesn't look too good at the end of TFA, and he looks even more off in the RJ Episode VIII teaser.  It would subvert every expectation of the GA to have Luke be insane ... that's why I could see them doing it.  Also, considering what we know about his story so far, it could work.

Also, remember that teaser started with a shot of the island in foreboding shadow.  It almost looked like a King Kong or Jurassic Park type of shot if you think about it.  That would fit with Rey having to deal with an extremely hostile environment.

The visions with Obi-Wan and Yoda are also plausible, at least Yoda ... because hasn't it been pretty confirmed that Frank Oz was around?  And if Luke is off, they may not "talk" to him anymore.

However, at the same time, a couple of the Kylo things sound fanboy fanfictioney.  Are we supposed to see the back of Kylo's head, just like Vader, and just not see his face until whenever? I guess they could do it, but it almost seems like too close of a match.  The getting swarmed by birds also seems fanfictioney.  Both could absolutely be true, but they feel a little "on the nose".

To swing the pendulum the other way, I could actually see them killing off Hux very early, just to knock everyone off their footing.

There's a lot to chew here.  In a spoiler drought, this is at least something we can play around with, as opposed to just laugh at.

@SoloSideCousin
Well, if the birds were rumoured to be Luke's sort of companions on the island I don't think it's totally fanfictional to imagine that they would attack Kylo. But the timing definitely seems too convenient IMO, what with MSW's most recent leak involving birds as well, like someone just tacked on the birds bit to make it fit with the leak. But yeah, I don't find any of it hard to believe and it definitely falls in line with various leaks and predictions. And I'm with you on the Rey/Luke stuff, it actually feels pretty on-the-nose.

As for Rey possibly being the personification of the light side (or something similar to that, a chosen one that extends into the mythology of the Force itself). I've said this before, but I'm keeping an open mind as far as that goes because I don't think it's impossible that Rey is going to end up being a really particular kind of heroine, the Star Wars equivalent of FF7's Aerith. Others have said before that it would be too dark, but it depends on how it's handled. Certain characters are meant to fulfill a greater purpose and return to the "earth" (or the life-stream or the spirit world or the Force, whatever). That could be Rey, and it could not be. But it's definitely a trope that has been utilized in both adult and children's fiction for all ages, and bittersweet as anything. I wouldn't be against them pulling something like this off. Or not. Who knows. xD

Big grain of salt and all that, as per usual. But as far as Reddit/4Chan "leaks" go, this isn't a bad one.

@FrolickingFizzgig

The attack from the birds could definitely happen, especially if they are Luke's friends/protectors.  My first thought just went to I think a recent MSW article that I read where they immediately went to Hitchcock's The Birds in reference to these convorees.  I remember thinking upon reading it that just because there are birds involved *does not* necessarily mean that there will be a "The Birds" type of situation.   This is especially true considering how the converees have been portrayed in Rebels.  So when I saw that part of the leak I got a very cheeseball kind of image in my head  , but they could handle it well.  But again, like you said, ever since that report birds seem to be everywhere. :-)

Also, could you explain your reference to "FF7's Aerith"? I don't think I am familiar with that, but from what I am gleaning from what you've written it sounds like a kind of reincarnation soul.

Piper Maru wrote:

snufkin wrote:Educated guess or insider knowledge, it's also plausible if it's meant to set up Rey for the same type of general coming-of-age trials Luke went through. Luke signs on to become a Jedi in part because of his eagerness for adventure and glory. But it's also driven by the romantic and idealized image of his father than Obi-Wan has manipulated. Luke sees himself as living up to something, which eventually gets turned on its head as he learns (and comes to terms) with the more messy and complicated truth. The part in bold is what they'll probably show about what happened to Ben and forced him over into Snoke's corner.  Likely it'll also include the dawning realization that it isn't Luke who really needs help, it's Ben.

As for Rey, it's the same thing. She's carried around this idealized image of her departed family in her mind and been driven by that in her struggle to survive on Jakku. It also feeds into the makeshift family she forms with with BB-8 (getting him home), Finn (the friend who becomes the family member who comes back for her), and Han (nagged by Maz to go home, the tragedy of him trying to convince his son to come home, and meeting the wife who has lost her husband, son, and brother). Her relationship with each of those characters and overall mission is to return somebody home. To essentially act in the role for others which nobody could ever do for her being stranded on Jakku. So likely her primary reason for agreeing to go to Ache-to is to reunite Leia with her brother and restore something of that family.

Except that Luke will probably refuse for weird space hippie reasons and frustrate her by not co-operating and possibly telling her that she just needs to off his nephew. It'll go against everything she holds central to her personal code. And if they delve into what happened with Ben and Luke and why Ben ended up betraying his family, she'll get a full taste of how families aren't always like the ideal and romantic image she's held in her mind. Having to learn that lesson will be her coming of age, learning the hard truth and coming to terms with it to move forward. Becoming a full adult.

@snufkin

I agree entirely, and that's why I think the concept of "family" it's so important in Rey's arc. Not because she is the daughter of someone extremely important, but because she is this humble, lost girl who always longed for a family. That's literally the only thing she wants: a family. All of a sudden she is in the middle of a huge conflict and its central point is... another family. She gets involved with the Skywalker-Solo family in a way that changes her whole life. Her bloodline is irrelevant here, the main conflict happens when she meets her new "family". Her friends, Han and Leia, Luke and Kylo.

@Piper Maru

Have you seen the documentary about Carrie Fisher and her family, especially her relationship with her mother, Bright Lights? I really felt after watching it that a lot of what Carrie meant about family being a theme for the ST was her own life experience. Born into a family which starts out as literal royalty with her parents' marriage. Except that things went pear shaped but that where they ended up after years of infidelity, bad marriages, bankruptcy, drug abuse, mental illness, anger, and brief estrangement was something more real, strong, and human. Rey is still very much idealistic and naive because she grew up as an orphan. It makes sense that she'll learn via her interactions with these two characters that the truth that is a familes (and especially that family) are always more messy. But still capable of being mended with love. But yeah, it's not that she learns about family because that they're her family. Just that she learns and comes of age as an adult through her interactions with that specific family and mending the errors/pain of the past. It's kind of hard to watch that documentary and see Debbie choke up talking about the hardest parts of her relationship with Carrie (especially the anger/estrangement and hospitalizations for drug overdose and psychotic breakdown) and not see that Leia wouldn't feel that way about her own child.

The idea I like most is the island being alive and possibly in-tune with Luke's mental state. The flora and fauna attacking Rey because crazy!Luke sees her as unwelcome (either literally or by accident). And I absolutely agree, @CineaRee. Luke being off-his-rocker would give more reason to the spoiler about Luke telling Rey to kill Kylo. None of this in particular has to pertain to the recent 4chan leak above. They're things that have been speculated about here for a long time. Just something to think about I guess.

CienaRee wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:To be honest, I personally wouldn't fixate on the details of that leak itself (birds! birds! birds! or as someone on Reddit said, "Written and directed by a bird"). It doesn't matter, IMO, if the leak is somebody's invention or has grains of truth...

The more interesting detail here is that confirmation from that someone-in-the-know that the Rey/Luke stuff sounds accurate, based on what they've heard.

Luke being insane and disappointing Rey in some way, and Rey not finding Ahch-To a welcoming place at all, is something that's been speculated a lot at least since the first teaser clip where Luke looked angry and kind of demented.

It's a very interesting possibility, to be sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be the case - especially since Mark would probably like something a bit more challenging from an acting standpoint than "awesome Luke is awesome".

@Darth Dingbat

It would also explain why Luke would ask Rey to kill Kylo.Luke in his right mind wouldn't ask this(bot only because Kylo's his newphew but also because of the pain he would cause his dear sister) but cray Luke?Hell,yeah,it would also be an interesting thing to explore because if you think about it Luke has went through so much in his youth with finding out Vader's his father and almsot being killed by Palpatine and later when Ben falls to the DS.If he believes Kylo killed his students and blames himself it's totally in character for him to have a mental breakdown and it also gives a plausbale explanation as to why he wouldn't help Leia and the Resistance.

@CienaRee

Ooh, good call on that one!

The Luke we saw in the OT (and particularly RoTJ) wouldn't ask Rey to kill Kylo; however, if Luke is a bit nuts (or was rumored in that early TFA leak, is haunted by "spirits" from an ancient Sith tomb), it's not going against the character of the Luke that we know. It's possibly in character for a Luke that we don't know yet.

I take these things with a huge grain of salt but I quite like the sound of it. Some things we've heard from elsewhere including MSW so it's likely another cobbled together wish list. Unlikely as the Snoke killing Hux at the start scenario might sound it could be an effective device. Hux (and DG who I'm a big fan of) had a largely thankless role in TFA. If Snoke were shown cutting Hux down for the failures of Starkiller Base it would up the ante for Kylo to show he's on borrowed time. To be honest, if Kylo, Hux, Phasma and the rest of the First Order are all business as usual after the resistance dealt them a huge blow, it would weaken Snoke's villain status even further, IMO. Lots of people, me included, are already concerned about how he'll establish his Supreme Leader credentials. Killing Hux horribly would be a start, even though I really love Domnhall Gleeson and hoped Hux would get something more to do in Ep VIII than be a frothing glowering space Nazi!

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The idea I like most is the island being alive and possibly in-tune with Luke's mental state. The flora and fauna attacking Rey because crazy!Luke sees her as unwelcome (either literally or by accident). And I absolutely agree, @CineaRee. Luke being off-his-rocker would give more reason to the spoiler about Luke telling Rey to kill Kylo. None of this in particular has to pertain to the recent 4chan leak above. They're things that have been speculated about here for a long time. Just something to think about I guess.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oooohhh, I like that.  Luke being in a kind of symbiotic system with the island.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I take these things with a huge grain of salt but I quite like the sound of it. Some things we've heard from elsewhere including MSW so it's likely another cobbled together wish list. Unlikely as the Snoke killing Hux at the start scenario might sound it could be an effective device. Hux (and DG who I'm a big fan of) had a largely thankless role in TFA. If Snoke were shown cutting Hux down for the failures of Starkiller Base it would up the ante for Kylo to show he's on borrowed time. To be honest, if Kylo, Hux, Phasma and the rest of the First Order are all business as usual after the resistance dealt them a huge blow, it would weaken Snoke's villain status even further, IMO. Lots of people, me included, are already concerned about how he'll establish his Supreme Leader credentials. Killing Hux horribly would be a start, even though I really love Domnhall Gleeson and hoped Hux would get something more to do in Ep VIII than be a frothing glowering space Nazi!

@Mrs Ben Solo

If Phasma really does have a bigger role in VIII, offing Hux early on would be one way to build that in to the story.

It seems like there have been some rumblings of Phasma having something personal out for Finn (for what happened in TFA), and one way to raise the stakes for that would be to promote her within the ranks of the FO.

What kind of conflict could feel Rey if she's just a personification of a complicated archetype? If she's the Light, why she tried to kill Ben? It doesn't quite add up. Crazy!Luke is going around from the beginning and I could be ok with that. Kylo wants only to kill her in every leak and it doesn't make sense in the "humanity" aspect. This guy imo nipped and tucked every bit of spoilers we've heard

Wait, where did this "Rey as the embodiment of the Light side" thing come from? I didn't see it in the 4chan thing... or didn't I look closely enough?

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I take these things with a huge grain of salt but I quite like the sound of it. Some things we've heard from elsewhere including MSW so it's likely another cobbled together wish list. Unlikely as the Snoke killing Hux at the start scenario might sound it could be an effective device. Hux (and DG who I'm a big fan of) had a largely thankless role in TFA. If Snoke were shown cutting Hux down for the failures of Starkiller Base it would up the ante for Kylo to show he's on borrowed time. To be honest, if Kylo, Hux, Phasma and the rest of the First Order are all business as usual after the resistance dealt them a huge blow, it would weaken Snoke's villain status even further, IMO. Lots of people, me included, are already concerned about how he'll establish his Supreme Leader credentials. Killing Hux horribly would be a start, even though I really love Domnhall Gleeson and hoped Hux would get something more to do in Ep VIII than be a frothing glowering space Nazi!

@Mrs Ben Solo

I like that explanation, makes sense.

Though, it's really hard to tell what's legit in that particular leak (or if it's legit at all). In any case it doesn't sound as usual Finn-centric "leak".
It doesn't mention any parentage theroy. And is more in tune with the previous speculations (unstable!Luke).

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

nonesuch wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:So that's the first 40 minutes of the film, and no mention of Finn, KMT, Leia, Poe, BDT, Dern...? Okay

Much as I like "Kylo and Rey connect to each other through the Force", to me that whole thing sounds like somebody taking a bunch of different rumours from different sources and putting their own spin on things.

@Darth Dingbat

The person backing the 4Chan rumour up is someone who's 'in' with MSW. They basically said that some of the Luke and Rey bits match up with things they've heard but haven't published on the site yet. That's why I'm taking this more seriously than I would usually (since 4Chan is normally something of a cesspit).

And I expect they mean that this stuff happens in the first hour, not that it is a complete account of everything that happens in that first hour (so they're only sharing the Luke/Kylo/Rey strand, rather than going into everything).

@nonesuch

Yeah, maybe I have no instincts for this kind of thing, but the Luke and Rey stuff feels like it might be right.  He doesn't look too good at the end of TFA, and he looks even more off in the RJ Episode VIII teaser.  It would subvert every expectation of the GA to have Luke be insane ... that's why I could see them doing it.  Also, considering what we know about his story so far, it could work.

Also, remember that teaser started with a shot of the island in foreboding shadow.  It almost looked like a King Kong or Jurassic Park type of shot if you think about it.  That would fit with Rey having to deal with an extremely hostile environment.

The visions with Obi-Wan and Yoda are also plausible, at least Yoda ... because hasn't it been pretty confirmed that Frank Oz was around?  And if Luke is off, they may not "talk" to him anymore.

However, at the same time, a couple of the Kylo things sound fanboy fanfictioney.  Are we supposed to see the back of Kylo's head, just like Vader, and just not see his face until whenever? I guess they could do it, but it almost seems like too close of a match.  The getting swarmed by birds also seems fanfictioney.  Both could absolutely be true, but they feel a little "on the nose".

To swing the pendulum the other way, I could actually see them killing off Hux very early, just to knock everyone off their footing.

There's a lot to chew here.  In a spoiler drought, this is at least something we can play around with, as opposed to just laugh at.

@SoloSideCousin
Well, if the birds were rumoured to be Luke's sort of companions on the island I don't think it's totally fanfictional to imagine that they would attack Kylo. But the timing definitely seems too convenient IMO, what with MSW's most recent leak involving birds as well, like someone just tacked on the birds bit to make it fit with the leak. But yeah, I don't find any of it hard to believe and it definitely falls in line with various leaks and predictions. And I'm with you on the Rey/Luke stuff, it actually feels pretty on-the-nose.

As for Rey possibly being the personification of the light side (or something similar to that, a chosen one that extends into the mythology of the Force itself). I've said this before, but I'm keeping an open mind as far as that goes because I don't think it's impossible that Rey is going to end up being a really particular kind of heroine, the Star Wars equivalent of FF7's Aerith. Others have said before that it would be too dark, but it depends on how it's handled. Certain characters are meant to fulfill a greater purpose and return to the "earth" (or the life-stream or the spirit world or the Force, whatever). That could be Rey, and it could not be. But it's definitely a trope that has been utilized in both adult and children's fiction for all ages, and bittersweet as anything. I wouldn't be against them pulling something like this off. Or not. Who knows. xD

Big grain of salt and all that, as per usual. But as far as Reddit/4Chan "leaks" go, this isn't a bad one.

@FrolickingFizzgig

The attack from the birds could definitely happen, especially if they are Luke's friends/protectors.  My first thought just went to I think a recent MSW article that I read where they immediately went to Hitchcock's The Birds in reference to these convorees.  I remember thinking upon reading it that just because there are birds involved *does not* necessarily mean that there will be a "The Birds" type of situation.   This is especially true considering how the converees have been portrayed in Rebels.  So when I saw that part of the leak I got a very cheeseball kind of image in my head  , but they could handle it well.  But again, like you said, ever since that report birds seem to be everywhere. :-)

Also, could you explain your reference to "FF7's Aerith"? I don't think I am familiar with that, but from what I am gleaning from what you've written it sounds like a kind of reincarnation soul.

@SoloSideCousin
It's a trope, a character revealed to unique in a way that reaches as deep as you can into the lore of whatever made-up world you're dealing with. Usually female and connected to the lifeblood of the world, planet or galaxy (a sort of symbolic and spiritual mother or goddess). If Rey is indeed something like the avatar of the Force or the embodiment of the light side I would be surprised if she didn't have to return that energy to the Force before the end of the trilogy, kind of a twist on "too pure for this world" (and I don't mean that literally, Rey is still an individual and a character with her own personality and experiences, but well-executed versions of this trope always are). In FF7's case Aerith is the only survivor of a civilization called the ancients living on a planet being sucked dry of its ability to procreate life by an evil power company LOL. The livestream is where all souls originate from, and it's essentially being drained in the form of energy used to create weapons and soldiers and power cities. The primary protagonist was one of the soldiers and Aerith's impact on him, the villain and the planet serves as the ultimate backdrop for the plot. Her death allows the world to be saved.

Another good example can be found in The Last Airbender with Yue, a princess given life by a spirit who eventually has to take it away again, at which point the princess herself becomes the spirit.

Again, I doubt this will be the case for a lot of reasons, but I'm keeping an open mind about it because it could be really powerful and it goes beyond Rey being just another prophesied "chosen one". She would be part of the life of the galaxy itself destined to impact it hugely and then return to it.

Maria Antonietta wrote:What kind of conflict could feel Rey if she's just a personification of a complicated archetype? If she's the Light, why she tried to kill Ben? It doesn't quite add up. Crazy!Luke is going around from the beginning and I could be ok with that. Kylo wants only to kill her in every leak and it doesn't make sense in the "humanity" aspect. This guy imo nipped and tucked every bit of spoilers we've heard

@Maria Antonietta

I think you're probably right.  I don't believe the "personification of light" part either.  She's way too trigger happy for that.

But at the same time, it makes me wonder about the source of this.  A lot of this Luke and Rey stuff can be inferred by stuff that is already out there.  But haven't there been instances in the history of LF where correct and wrong information have been intentionally put out at the same time? I haven't been in the fandom long enough to know, but any rudimentary knowledge of how propaganda/disinformation/distraction works tells you that there always has to be some kernal of truth in whatever is released.  Luke being crazy and Rey having a vision could be true.  Rey being the personification of light not so true ... but it can seem true at the moment because a lot of the Rey portrayal was cinnamon roll-ish, but I don't think they are going there with her long term.  I think she will be a lot more complicated and they want that to be a surprise.

tbh I never found the idea of Luke wanting Kylo killed far-fetched. After Han's murder (which I feel is not really given enough weight here as a story point), he could have decided that there's nothing left of his nephew Ben anymore, and that Kylo needs to be destroyed. The bit that made little sense is that for some reason he'd ask a newbie with zero real training to carry it out.

Saracene wrote:tbh I never found the idea of Luke wanting Kylo killed far-fetched. After Han's murder (which I feel is not really given enough weight here as a story point), he could have decided that there's nothing left of his nephew Ben anymore, and that Kylo needs to be destroyed. The bit that made little sense is that for some reason he'd ask a newbie with zero real training to carry it out.

@Saracene
I agree, I never found it farfetched either. Just another way of looking at it though.

Saracene wrote:tbh I never found the idea of Luke wanting Kylo killed far-fetched. After Han's murder (which I feel is not really given enough weight here as a story point), he could have decided that there's nothing left of his nephew Ben anymore, and that Kylo needs to be destroyed. The bit that made little sense is that for some reason he'd ask a newbie with zero real training to carry it out.

@Saracene

Right, even if Luke isn't crazy, I could see him thinking Kylo needed to die from a "bitter old, disillusioned, 'sees what Obi-Wan was talking about'" kind of pov.  The lame part was putting it on Rey.

However, if he is insane, maybe he thinks "only she" can kill him.