Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Again, we need to keep in mind that POTO is a tragic story that keeps things realistic, not an optimistic tale. And it shows that there are times in life when if you keep fighting, you'll end up drowning and bring other people with you.

That's the big reason why I don't compare POTO to Reylo. Rey and Kylo are in a fairy tale in space. POTO is not a fairy tale.

@Irina de France

I don't think that anyone here thinks that Reylo is POTO, dangerous sexual desire (DSD) aside. We are just trashing the antis notion that Rey shouldn't fall in love with Kylo cause they treated each other like crap in TFA (she unnecessarily sliced his face so that's crappy treatment too). And are discussing other examples where the heroine had to swap DSD for Blandy McBland, POTO being the most famous one.

@Moonlight13 I always insisted that Monstahzone >>>>>>>>>> friendzone and now we know why. Monstahzone = DSDzone 

vaderito wrote:Again, we need to keep in mind that POTO is a tragic story that keeps things realistic, not an optimistic tale. And it shows that there are times in life when if you keep fighting, you'll end up drowning and bring other people with you.

That's the big reason why I don't compare POTO to Reylo. Rey and Kylo are in a fairy tale in space. POTO is not a fairy tale.

@Irina de France

I don't think that anyone here thinks that Reylo is POTO, dangerous sexual desire (DSD) aside. We are just trashing the notion that Rey shouldn't fall in love with Kylo cause they treated each other like crap in TFA (she unnecessarily sliced his face so that's crappy treatment too). And are discussing other examples where the heroine had to swap DSD for Blandy McBland, POTO being the most famous one.

@Moonlight13 I always insisted that Monstahzone >>>>>>>>>> friendzone and now we know why. Monstahzone = DSDzone  [/quote]
@vaderito

Sure. But I still think that talking about POTO as being a case where the heroine has to swap DSD for Blandy McBland, as you say, is diminishing Christine's character arc. Just my opinion, though.

Heck, Wuthering Heights is an example (though that's more or less because Cathy is a bit of an *ss). So is Mansfield Park, if you're rooting for Fanny to end up with Henry Crawford.

I'm not too familiar with Phantom of The Opera but all this sounds like what Francis Ford Coppola did with his abomination of an adaptation (which he had the cheek to use the author's name in the title) of Dracula. He made it a love triangle with Mina, Jonathan Harker and Dracula which was a travesty IMO. The actual book is far superior and Dracula is well and truly a monster in that with no (sort of) sympathetic love story to redeem him. Mina and Jonathan have a true love and he's not the safe boring choice he's portrayed as in that movie.

I've shipped many pairs where one half of the couple isn't exactly the healthy choice such as Spuffy or Sooric. I love those couples together but I can usually always agree that they aren't each other's HEA for many reasons. I don't feel that way about Reylo at this point because despite everything Kylo has done, I still feel he and Rey could find understanding and eventual happiness together. That could change in the future, though, depending on what happens in TLJ. If Kylo doesn't start taking positive steps towards redeeming himself and if he hurts Rey, physically or emotionally, I doubt I'll continue to ship them. I really do want this ship to keep sailing, though!

Maybe it's because I read the Phantom book first (where Phantom's appearance is truly hideous), but the idea of Phantom as the DSD kinda baffles me. As intriguing as Christine finds him early on, she is clearly revolted and horrified when she sees his true face and it's pretty safe to say that all sexual desire dies there and then. That's why in the musical film adaptation they had to make Phantom look like a beefcake with half of his face mildly scarred; otherwise they'd never sell him as a potentially romantic interest.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I'm not too familiar with Phantom of The Opera but all this sounds like what Francis Ford Coppola did with his abomination of an adaptation (which he had the cheek to use the author's name in the title) of Dracula. He made it a love triangle with Mina, Jonathan Harker and Dracula which was a travesty IMO. The actual book is far superior and Dracula is well and truly a monster in that with no (sort of) sympathetic love story to redeem him. Mina and Jonathan have a true love and he's not the safe boring choice he's portrayed as in that movie.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Me whenever I find other people who hate the 1992 movie:

@Irina de France Yay, right back at ya! I've read Dracula so many times and I've never been satisfied with any TV or movie adaptation. I did once write a Dracula/Labyrinth crossover fanfiction which proved to have a controversial ending, not because of any romance between Mina and Dracula, though!

I actually really liked the 1992 Dracula ... then again, I never read the book, so I took it as it's own thing. :-) It also provided a great role for Gary Oldman, who I had only seen in the small part in JFK previously. Gary Oldman was one of my very first celeb crushes. Like Alan Rickman and now Adam Driver, I never remember him giving a bad performance.

vaderito wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

What I also want to point out is that POTO subverts the usual gothic tropes we can see in other monster stories. In those movies, we always see the virginal pure heroine who at some point will faint and be bridal-carried by the monster (who represents the heroine's *dangerous* sexual desires),

You are a monstah = You are my dangerous sexual desire. 

and of course, the dashing young hero has to save her.

from her dangerous sexual desire. No wonder the audience always sides with the monster and never with the bland hero. And they are all, without exception, bland whether they are pit against a real monster or a dark dangerously sexy male that represents a monster in human flesh. I think that's a point, kind of like a message that the girl should keep her desires in check. Suckage.  

And her gesture of selfless love is what finally convinces the Phantom that to love is to let go - hence why he lets Christine go in the end.

@Irina de France

Ugh, the glorified "letting one you love go" = ultimate proof of love or "dying for the one you love = ultimate proof of love. No and no. Fight for your love and live for your love.[/quote]
@vaderito

At bolded, yep. You hit the nail on the head. It isn't about what the Phantom does it is about what he represents to Christine.

It's funny but Reylo- if it happens - could very well turn the 'heroine gets rescued by the dashing hero' genre completely upside down. Because it's Kylo, not Rey, who needs rescuing. Twice in TFA Finn, and later Finn and Han, come to Rey's rescue and find she doesn't need rescuing.

Kylo is the one here who needs saving, from Snoke's manipulations and his own tortured mind.

By the way, has anyone here has seen Guillermo Del Toro's 'Crimson Peak', because that's one story which completely inverts the 'hero rescues heroine' notion.

Saracene wrote:Maybe it's because I read the Phantom book first (where Phantom's appearance is truly hideous), but the idea of Phantom as the DSD kinda baffles me. As intriguing as Christine finds him early on, she is clearly revolted and horrified when she sees his true face and it's pretty safe to say that all sexual desire dies there and then. That's why in the musical film adaptation they had to make Phantom look like a beefcake with half of his face mildly scarred; otherwise they'd never sell him as a potentially romantic interest.

@Saracene

I was pretty young when I first learned of Phantom of the Opera, I also read the book and I had the same impression you did. I never saw the Phantom as a potential lover for Christine as she didn't see him that way. He was actually kind of scary, but at the end he was also a character you felt some pity/sympathy toward.

SoloSideCousin wrote:I actually really liked the 1992 Dracula ... then again, I never read the book, so I took it as it's own thing. :-) It also provided a great role for Gary Oldman, who I had only seen in the small part in JFK previously. Gary Oldman was one of my very first celeb crushes. Like Alan Rickman and now Adam Driver, I never remember him giving a bad performance.

@SoloSideCousin

That is one of my favourite all time movies, and yes Oldman is also a fave of mine. He was amazing in Dracula, because he made his portrayal sexy and desperately sad yet never let anyone forget how terrifying he also was.
I did read that in the original script Mina went straight back to Jonathan at the end,but they decided to change it.

I was never attached to the original, so I really enjoy the 1992 Dracula version and Gary Oldman's performance especially is outstanding (now if someone went back in time and made them boot Keanu Reeves out of the film I'd be eternally grateful).

I think I could get onboard with sexy!Phantom and enjoy it as a different take on the character, if only the movie adaptation of the musical was actually any good. As it is, I mostly enjoy the parodies and takedowns it spawned.

Saracene wrote:I was never attached to the original, so I really enjoy the 1992 Dracula version and Gary Oldman's performance especially is outstanding (now if someone went back in time and made them boot Keanu Reeves out of the film I'd be eternally grateful).

I think I could get onboard with sexy!Phantom and enjoy it as a different take on the character, if only the movie adaptation of the musical was actually any good. As it is, I mostly enjoy the parodies and takedowns it spawned.

@Saracene

It was his accent that did it for me;his performance wasn't bad but his accent was awful!

Kessel wrote:

Saracene wrote:Maybe it's because I read the Phantom book first (where Phantom's appearance is truly hideous), but the idea of Phantom as the DSD kinda baffles me. As intriguing as Christine finds him early on, she is clearly revolted and horrified when she sees his true face and it's pretty safe to say that all sexual desire dies there and then. That's why in the musical film adaptation they had to make Phantom look like a beefcake with half of his face mildly scarred; otherwise they'd never sell him as a potentially romantic interest.

@Saracene

I was pretty young when I first learned of Phantom of the Opera, I also read the book and I had the same impression you did. I never saw the Phantom as a potential lover for Christine as she didn't see him that way. He was actually kind of scary, but at the end he was also a character you felt some pity/sympathy toward.

@Kessel

Susan Kay wrote an absolutely wonderful novel that explores the Phantom's birth,childhood and adolescence as well as his sojourn at the Opera, and I actually found it better than the original book. If you can ever find it,check it out.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Kessel wrote:

Saracene wrote:Maybe it's because I read the Phantom book first (where Phantom's appearance is truly hideous), but the idea of Phantom as the DSD kinda baffles me. As intriguing as Christine finds him early on, she is clearly revolted and horrified when she sees his true face and it's pretty safe to say that all sexual desire dies there and then. That's why in the musical film adaptation they had to make Phantom look like a beefcake with half of his face mildly scarred; otherwise they'd never sell him as a potentially romantic interest.

@Saracene

I was pretty young when I first learned of Phantom of the Opera, I also read the book and I had the same impression you did. I never saw the Phantom as a potential lover for Christine as she didn't see him that way. He was actually kind of scary, but at the end he was also a character you felt some pity/sympathy toward.

@Kessel

Susan Kay wrote an absolutely wonderful novel that explores the Phantom's birth,childhood and adolescence as well as his sojourn at the Opera, and I actually found it better than the original book. If you can ever find it,check it out.

@motherofpearl1

I haven't read Susan Key's novel on Phantom but I've heard really great things about it.There are actually a lot of really good novels about the Phantomout there just go to amazon and you'll see what I'm talking about.
In all seriousness though I just think we live in an age where we're fasicnated with the anti hero prefering more gritty and darker/morally grey storytelling than simply good vs evil(I'm not speaking for everyone ofcourse) which is why we like characters like the Phantom we're aware that he's a deeply disturbed and flawed individual but at the same time we can't help but want him to find happiness and love due to the vulnerabilty and suffering he's gone though.And I think the same applies to Kylo to some extent as well.

Well, don't get me wrong, I've actually written stories where Erik/the Phantom finds happiness - I just don't think it should be with Christine. I wrote some with an OC, some others with Meg Giry (and I admit it, Erik/Meg Giry is one of my biggest OTPs of all time, and I ain't even sorry). Those stories were actually my first fanfics ever. Ah, the good ol' days...

Count me in the crowd who just feels sorry for Keanu Reeves - he's an absolutely lovely person, but let's just say that there are some roles that are just not fit for him. Jonathan Harker is one of them, sadly... And Gary Oldman is a great actor - in a better movie, I think he would have made an amazing Dracula, but the 1992 movie seemed like it couldn't decide whether Drac was a monster, a Byronic Hero, or some dude moping for 400 years in his castle about his long lost love while he has three half naked vampire ladies with him, only to find the reincarnation of his long lost wife and then freaking out when he realizes that, oh my god, she has a life of her own, how dare she.

Irina de France wrote:Well, don't get me wrong, I've actually written stories where Erik/the Phantom finds happiness - I just don't think it should be with Christine. I wrote some with an OC, some others with Meg Giry (and I admit it, Erik/Meg Giry is one of my biggest OTPs of all time, and I ain't even sorry). Those stories were actually my first fanfics ever. Ah, the good ol' days...

Count me in the crowd who just feels sorry for Keanu Reeves - he's an absolutely lovely person, but let's just say that there are some roles that are just not fit for him. Jonathan Harker is one of them, sadly... And Gary Oldman is a great actor - in a better movie, I think he would have made an amazing Dracula, but the 1992 movie seemed like it couldn't decide whether Drac was a monster, a Byronic Hero, or some dude moping for 400 years in his castle about his long lost love while he has three half naked vampire ladies with him, only to find the reincarnation of his long lost wife and then freaking out when he realizes that, oh my god, she has a life of her own, how dare she.

@Irina de France

I am a fan of Gary Oldman and his portrayal of Dracula would have been pretty spot on if not for the tacked on romance with Mina/incarnation of his dead wife. If it had actually been 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' and not some attempt to second guess the origins of the character while adding in an unnecessary doomed romance scenario, I would have been okay with it. Keanu Reeves, bless him, was dreadfully miscast but I could even have overlooked that if they'd stuck to the book.

I read a wonderful AU novel where Sherlock Holmes is asked to investigate the Phantom - it's called the Angel of the Opera, although I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it.

It's not only an enjoyable read but it is possibly the most sympathetic take on Erik I've read outside of fan fiction. Most notable is the very unsympathetic take on Raoul, his brother and even Christine! None of them are cast in a very good light.

I think the big difference between Erik/Christine and Reylo is Kylo and Rey have a lot in common. Both Force sensitive, both desperately lonely, both let down by their families, both seeking a father figure. The closest Erik/Christine came to that was their mutual talent for music, although I often wonder just how 'happy ever after' Christine and Raoul would have been considering the vast difference in their backgrounds.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I read a wonderful AU novel where Sherlock Holmes is asked to investigate the Phantom - it's called the Angel of the Opera, although I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it.

It's not only an enjoyable read but it is possibly the most sympathetic take on Erik I've read outside of fan fiction. Most notable is the very unsympathetic take on Raoul, his brother and even Christine! None of them are cast in a very good light.

I think the big difference between Erik/Christine and Reylo is Kylo and Rey have a lot in common. Both Force sensitive, both desperately lonely, both let down by their families, both seeking a father figure. The closest Erik/Christine came to that was their mutual talent for music, although I often wonder just how 'happy ever after' Christine and Raoul would have been considering the vast difference in their backgrounds.

@motherofpearl1

Moreover, Eric is disfigured af. Kylo's a Byronic Hotness. There was just nowhere for Eric to go but hiding in the Opera. That pretty much sealed his and Christine's romantic fate. They would have to live in the underground forever.

Also, Kylo's a damsel that need saving from Snoke. Eric had no Snoke.

It's a different story altogether except for enemies to lovers vibes. But that has variations and variations.

vaderito wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I read a wonderful AU novel where Sherlock Holmes is asked to investigate the Phantom - it's called the Angel of the Opera, although I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it.

It's not only an enjoyable read but it is possibly the most sympathetic take on Erik I've read outside of fan fiction. Most notable is the very unsympathetic take on Raoul, his brother and even Christine! None of them are cast in a very good light.

I think the big difference between Erik/Christine and Reylo is Kylo and Rey have a lot in common. Both Force sensitive, both desperately lonely, both let down by their families, both seeking a father figure. The closest Erik/Christine came to that was their mutual talent for music, although I often wonder just how 'happy ever after' Christine and Raoul would have been considering the vast difference in their backgrounds.

@motherofpearl1

Moreover, Eric is disfigured af. Kylo's a Byronic Hotness. There was just nowhere for Eric to go but hiding in the Opera. That pretty much sealed his and Christine's romantic fate. They would have to live in the underground forever.

Also, Kylo's a damsel that need saving from Snoke. Eric had no Snoke.

It's a different story altogether except for enemies to lovers vibes. But that has variations and variations.

@vaderito

Tbh, I never understood why musical!Erik didn't just pretend he had a war injury or something. But then again, he isn't the sanest person in the world.

@irina de France

Not the sanest person in the world you say? Teacher!Kylo says Hi.



perfect place and time:



Also, right after she's seen him at his most appealing:



But he's still hoping she'll accept the marriage proposal:



Not that this means No

Interesting thing is....Kylo didn't see Rey watching until after impaling dad.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Interesting thing is....Kylo didn't see Rey watching until after impaling dad.

@motherofpearl1

if he knew, he wouldn't.

vaderito wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Interesting thing is....Kylo didn't see Rey watching until after impaling dad.

@motherofpearl1

if he knew, he wouldn't.

@vaderito

Yes, that makes you think.

Irina de France wrote:

vaderito wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I read a wonderful AU novel where Sherlock Holmes is asked to investigate the Phantom - it's called the Angel of the Opera, although I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it.

It's not only an enjoyable read but it is possibly the most sympathetic take on Erik I've read outside of fan fiction. Most notable is the very unsympathetic take on Raoul, his brother and even Christine! None of them are cast in a very good light.

I think the big difference between Erik/Christine and Reylo is Kylo and Rey have a lot in common. Both Force sensitive, both desperately lonely, both let down by their families, both seeking a father figure. The closest Erik/Christine came to that was their mutual talent for music, although I often wonder just how 'happy ever after' Christine and Raoul would have been considering the vast difference in their backgrounds.

@motherofpearl1

Moreover, Eric is disfigured af. Kylo's a Byronic Hotness. There was just nowhere for Eric to go but hiding in the Opera. That pretty much sealed his and Christine's romantic fate. They would have to live in the underground forever.

Also, Kylo's a damsel that need saving from Snoke. Eric had no Snoke.

It's a different story altogether except for enemies to lovers vibes. But that has variations and variations.

@vaderito

Tbh, I never understood why musical!Erik didn't just pretend he had a war injury or something. But then again, he isn't the sanest person in the world.

@Irina de France

I think the attitude of his parents emotionally scarred him; what kind of mother makes her own child wear a mask?