Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors (the "now it's permanent" spoilers thread)

[Guest]

Okay, so because of the lull, I have started to reread Bloodline, and a kind of basic question has come to mind as I was reading the big where Leia's Senate friend asks why she never became a Jedi. In the conversation this Tai-Lin is aware Luke is her brother and that Luke is a Jedi. He also mentions that he knows force sensitivity can be inherited. He also seems to hold the role of Jedi in his esteem. Yet, she purposefully hides from her friend that her son is FS and is seemingly being trained to be a Jedi by Luke.

Why hide her son's force sensitivity and training when it sounds like it is a respectable thing to do in at least some folks eyes? I mean why is all of this a state secret? I mean everyone knows Luke is her brother and he's force sensitivity.  It's like for all her love that Ben needs to be hidden away.

I also got a similar feeling when Lady Carise said that Ben would be the governor of Birren.  Leia does say that he wouldn't be interested,  but the sentence just before says that Leia looked like she's aged when Carise mentions Ben being governor ... So there is some kind of anxiety there. I don't think it's necessarily Ben being power hungry either though. It almost feel like something like how families in the old days would send their mentally ill kid away to some country relatives for their own good. :-( Like the person can't handle themselves in regular society ie something.

So is Ben actually exhibiting mental problems or is his force so out of control? Is Snoke like a Rasputin who promises to cure his torments?

I don't know.  I am just writing here, but why hide your son basically going off to the priesthood or monastery?

@SoloSideCousin

My personal interpretation of Leia being cagey about her and Ben's force ability was just her being extra cautious and protective of her son. That passage when Tai-Lin Garr asks her if she ever considered training to become a Jedi Knight comes on the heels of her uncomfortable conversation with Ransolm Casterfo which stirs up painful memories of her torture at Darth Vader's hands. Her fears about how Ben might react to the truth about his grandfather is ambiguous enough that it could relate to deep seated concerns about him, ditto the thing about the Governorship of Birren. But as she doesn't express specific worries about her son's abilities, it's all framed as part of Leia's fears for the future of Galactic peace.

Bloodline is definitely my favourite canon book so far but I do wonder how much relevance it will have to the ST as a whole. The collaboration with Rian Johnson suggests some of it will figure in TLJ, at least. But Claudia Gray doesn't know the rest of the story. She didn't even know Han and Leia would be separated in TFA as she said it surprised and upset her when she saw the movie. Pablo also said that book authors are only provided with the information they needed. The authors collaborated with the Story Group if/when needed and Lucasfilm worked on edits to make sure nothing would contradict canon but that they didn't want to stifle the writer's creativity. This accounts for the differences in characterisation between Claudia Gray and Chuck Wendig, for example.

I'm not saying there's nothing of value to be gleaned from the books, I'm personally just cautious when it comes to these things. To date, the references to Luke and Ben have been so vague, they can most likely be read in a variety of ways which will fit the canon story in retrospect. Like if it turns out Ben Solo was always power crazed with a superiority complex, it will cast a different light on Leia's concerns etc.

[Birdwoman]

Maybe she feels powerless?  She can't control her son's actions but sends him away hoping that Luke can help him resist the dark?

I was reading spoilers in our archive spoiler thread last night.  There was a leak that happened before TFA about Luke. Do you think they will follow this treatment?  Luke being disturbed and defeated?

[spacebaby45678]

@spacebaby45678 Good call on Paul's vision of Chani before they met. 

@motherofpearl1 Dune was one of many inspirations for Lucas. The Desert Messiah trope was certainly it, another being special powers. 

However, ST looks like they are turning it up a notch. Not only that Rey has more similarities with Paul than Luke, and Kylo with Alia, but Aftermath gives Jakku a great importance. What of "Jakku was important 1000 years ago and will be again" as well as other stuff.

@vaderito

Exactly!  There is a difference Muadib was prophesied, the fremen had signs that they where looking for, this might be like Kylo and the KOR

Paul is agonized by visions of terrible Jihad which will destroy the Imperium. Yet he becomes Paul Muad'Dib, Mahdi of the Fremen, accepting the role imposed by Bene Gesserit. A new religion sweeps Paul to power.

[IoJovi]

Okay, so because of the lull, I have started to reread Bloodline, and a kind of basic question has come to mind as I was reading the big where Leia's Senate friend asks why she never became a Jedi. In the conversation this Tai-Lin is aware Luke is her brother and that Luke is a Jedi. He also mentions that he knows force sensitivity can be inherited. He also seems to hold the role of Jedi in his esteem. Yet, she purposefully hides from her friend that her son is FS and is seemingly being trained to be a Jedi by Luke.

Why hide her son's force sensitivity and training when it sounds like it is a respectable thing to do in at least some folks eyes? I mean why is all of this a state secret? I mean everyone knows Luke is her brother and he's force sensitivity.  It's like for all her love that Ben needs to be hidden away.

I also got a similar feeling when Lady Carise said that Ben would be the governor of Birren.  Leia does say that he wouldn't be interested,  but the sentence just before says that Leia looked like she's aged when Carise mentions Ben being governor ... So there is some kind of anxiety there. I don't think it's necessarily Ben being power hungry either though. It almost feel like something like how families in the old days would send their mentally ill kid away to some country relatives for their own good. :-( Like the person can't handle themselves in regular society ie something.

So is Ben actually exhibiting mental problems or is his force so out of control? Is Snoke like a Rasputin who promises to cure his torments?

I don't know.  I am just writing here, but why hide your son basically going off to the priesthood or monastery?

@SoloSideCousin

My personal interpretation of Leia being cagey about her and Ben's force ability was just her being extra cautious and protective of her son. That passage when Tai-Lin Garr asks her if she ever considered training to become a Jedi Knight comes on the heels of her uncomfortable conversation with Ransolm Casterfo which stirs up painful memories of her torture at Darth Vader's hands. Her fears about how Ben might react to the truth about his grandfather is ambiguous enough that it could relate to deep seated concerns about him, ditto the thing about the Governorship of Birren. But as she doesn't express specific worries about her son's abilities, it's all framed as part of Leia's fears for the future of Galactic peace.

Bloodline is definitely my favourite canon book so far but I do wonder how much relevance it will have to the ST as a whole. The collaboration with Rian Johnson suggests some of it will figure in TLJ, at least. But Claudia Gray doesn't know the rest of the story. She didn't even know Han and Leia would be separated in TFA as she said it surprised and upset her when she saw the movie. Pablo also said that book authors are only provided with the information they needed. The authors collaborated with the Story Group if/when needed and Lucasfilm worked on edits to make sure nothing would contradict canon but that they didn't want to stifle the writer's creativity. This accounts for the differences in characterisation between Claudia Gray and Chuck Wendig, for example.

I'm not saying there's nothing of value to be gleaned from the books, I'm personally just cautious when it comes to these things. To date, the references to Luke and Ben have been so vague, they can most likely be read in a variety of ways which will fit the canon story in retrospect. Like if it turns out Ben Solo was always power crazed with a superiority complex, it will cast a different light on Leia's concerns etc.

@Mrs Ben Solo

It's been over a year since I read this book (and a reread might be in order for me too), but I distinctly remember having the impression of Leia thinking Ben was completely fine, even if she hadn't heard from him in awhile.  It really depicted a woman who was very focused on her career while sometimes not giving her family the attention that was required.

Even if Ben had issues when he was young, prompting him to get sent to Luke, I'm certain his fall to the Darkside would have seemed to come out of left field for Leia.

[ISeeAnIsland]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

@reylo1992

I think that's all very likely. You post just reminded me of another idea that I've had as far as young Ben goes.

We know that Kylo is very emotional. It's probably very likely that Ben was a very sensitive, emotional kid.

And what often happens to sensitive, emotional kids in a typical school setting? They become targets for other kids. They get bullied at worst or labeled "the weird kid" at best.

Mix the possibility of bullying in with a kid who has these super strong powers that he may or may not be able to control...and it kind of sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Guest]

Okay, so because of the lull, I have started to reread Bloodline, and a kind of basic question has come to mind as I was reading the big where Leia's Senate friend asks why she never became a Jedi. In the conversation this Tai-Lin is aware Luke is her brother and that Luke is a Jedi. He also mentions that he knows force sensitivity can be inherited. He also seems to hold the role of Jedi in his esteem. Yet, she purposefully hides from her friend that her son is FS and is seemingly being trained to be a Jedi by Luke.

Why hide her son's force sensitivity and training when it sounds like it is a respectable thing to do in at least some folks eyes? I mean why is all of this a state secret? I mean everyone knows Luke is her brother and he's force sensitivity.  It's like for all her love that Ben needs to be hidden away.

I also got a similar feeling when Lady Carise said that Ben would be the governor of Birren.  Leia does say that he wouldn't be interested,  but the sentence just before says that Leia looked like she's aged when Carise mentions Ben being governor ... So there is some kind of anxiety there. I don't think it's necessarily Ben being power hungry either though. It almost feel like something like how families in the old days would send their mentally ill kid away to some country relatives for their own good. :-( Like the person can't handle themselves in regular society ie something.

So is Ben actually exhibiting mental problems or is his force so out of control? Is Snoke like a Rasputin who promises to cure his torments?

I don't know.  I am just writing here, but why hide your son basically going off to the priesthood or monastery?

@SoloSideCousin

My personal interpretation of Leia being cagey about her and Ben's force ability was just her being extra cautious and protective of her son. That passage when Tai-Lin Garr asks her if she ever considered training to become a Jedi Knight comes on the heels of her uncomfortable conversation with Ransolm Casterfo which stirs up painful memories of her torture at Darth Vader's hands. Her fears about how Ben might react to the truth about his grandfather is ambiguous enough that it could relate to deep seated concerns about him, ditto the thing about the Governorship of Birren. But as she doesn't express specific worries about her son's abilities, it's all framed as part of Leia's fears for the future of Galactic peace.

Bloodline is definitely my favourite canon book so far but I do wonder how much relevance it will have to the ST as a whole. The collaboration with Rian Johnson suggests some of it will figure in TLJ, at least. But Claudia Gray doesn't know the rest of the story. She didn't even know Han and Leia would be separated in TFA as she said it surprised and upset her when she saw the movie. Pablo also said that book authors are only provided with the information they needed. The authors collaborated with the Story Group if/when needed and Lucasfilm worked on edits to make sure nothing would contradict canon but that they didn't want to stifle the writer's creativity. This accounts for the differences in characterisation between Claudia Gray and Chuck Wendig, for example.

I'm not saying there's nothing of value to be gleaned from the books, I'm personally just cautious when it comes to these things. To date, the references to Luke and Ben have been so vague, they can most likely be read in a variety of ways which will fit the canon story in retrospect. Like if it turns out Ben Solo was always power crazed with a superiority complex, it will cast a different light on Leia's concerns etc.

@Mrs Ben Solo

It's been over a year since I read this book (and a reread might be in order for me too), but I distinctly remember having the impression Leia thinking Ben was completely fine, even if she hadn't heard from him awhile. It really depicted a woman who was very focused on her career while sometimes not giving her family the attention that was required.

Even if Ben had issues when he was young, prompting him to get sent to Luke, I'm certain his fall to the Darkside would have seemed to come out of left field for Leia.

@IoJovi

I also got the impression Leia wasn't unduly concerned about Luke and Ben. The only time she got upset was over the Vader reveal and that she hadn't been the one to break the news to Ben. But as Han is able to calm her fears fairly easily, it doesn't seem like either of them are overly worried about how Ben will react. However, like I said, there's an ambiguity and vagueness which could be later be explained as them having deep seated fears about Ben and his interest in Darth Vader but wanting to believe it would all be o.k because as his parents they loved him and believed the best of him.

[vaderito]

Exactly!  There is a difference Muadib was prophesied, the fremen  had signs that they where looking for, this might be like Kylo and the KOR

Paul is agonized by visions of terrible Jihad which will destroy the Imperium. Yet he becomes Paul Muad'Dib, Mahdi of the Fremen, accepting the role imposed by Bene Gesserit. A new religion sweeps Paul to power.

@spacebaby45678

Hmmm, that sounds like Knights of Rant's spoiler podcast about Rey the Harbinger of Doom, the reason why Kylo turned. She was the prophecized doom bringer, he thought it was one of Luke's padawan's and killed them all, and thus he fell into Rey's place and became the doom bringer himself.

[spacebaby45678]

Exactly!  There is a difference Muadib was prophesied, the fremen  had signs that they where looking for, this might be like Kylo and the KOR

Paul is agonized by visions of terrible Jihad which will destroy the Imperium. Yet he becomes Paul Muad'Dib, Mahdi of the Fremen, accepting the role imposed by Bene Gesserit. A new religion sweeps Paul to power.

@spacebaby45678

Hmmm, that sounds like Knights of Rant's spoiler podcast about Rey the Harbinger of Doom, the reason why Kylo turned. She was the prophecized doom bringer, he thought it was one of Luke's padawan's and killed them all, and thus he fell into Rey's place and became the doom bringer himself.

@vaderito

Most likely, harbinger of doom brings jihad, either Rey or Kylo ends up ruling the galaxy as Emperor or Empress... to soon to, tell if at all.

[reylo1992]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

@reylo1992

I think that's all very likely.  You post just reminded me of another idea that I've had as far as young Ben goes.

We know that Kylo is very emotional. It's probably very likely that Ben was a very sensitive, emotional kid.

And what often happens to sensitive, emotional kids in a typical school setting? They become targets for other kids. They get bullied at worst or labeled "the weird kid" at best.

Mix the possibility of bullying in with a kid who has these super strong powers that he may or may not be able to control...and it kind of sounds like a recipe for disaster.

@ISeeAnIsland

You mean, like this?

[vaderito]

Most likely, harbinger of doom brings jihad, either Rey or Kylo ends up ruling the galaxy as Emperor or Empress... to soon to, tell if at all.

@spacebaby45678

For those unfamiliar with Knights spoiler, here it is, very interesting:

[SoloSideCousin]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

@reylo1992

I think that's all very likely. You post just reminded me of another idea that I've had as far as young Ben goes.

We know that Kylo is very emotional. It's probably very likely that Ben was a very sensitive, emotional kid.

And what often happens to sensitive, emotional kids in a typical school setting? They become targets for other kids. They get bullied at worst or labeled "the weird kid" at best.

Mix the possibility of bullying in with a kid who has these super strong powers that he may or may not be able to control...and it kind of sounds like a recipe for disaster.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! This is the kind of thing that I was trying to get to in my earlier post. In fact, I have always had headcanon that Ben gets sent away after a bad reaction to a bully.

And in keeping with that, I am getting this impression that Han and Leia think that "he just can't handle things in a normal way. It's like he had multiple special needs diagnoses. First, he has emotional control problems. The book reiterates over and over that Leia has a temper. She also gets pissy and sour and defensive and aggressive and singleminded and zealous. These are all Anakin traits, and had she been trained, she might be rather Vader like herself. So let's assume Ben has that set of traits as well.

But then let's add on the Snoke/dark side interference which might involve dreams, voices, whispering, visions, etc. That would further mess with his emotional state in a way that would definitely scare Han and Leia, because it would seem dangerous (due to Vader history).

Finally, and this would be the most important "special need", Ben is a force prodigy with abilities no one ever heard of before *and* he awakens early.

As a result, you have this mentally abused (Snoke), Skywalker heir with abilities that he can't control and probably scare the s*** out of him too.

And this is where the rubber meets the road. Leia talks about her duty to the government. Han has uncontrollable wanderlust or whatever, but they have this kid who needs intense attention to be able to manage his powers and emotions

I have friends who have kids with special needs who have had to work like dogs and give up a lot for themselves, particularly when the kids are little, taking them to every therapy available, so when they are bigger the kids have had the neurological, speech, occupational, psychological therapy to handle life normally when older.

And as I was reading this book again, this felt like what was happening with Ben, but instead of going into the intense work with him themselves, which would have put a damper on their careers and which would have made them face their fears about Vader and Skywalker blood and the force head on, it's almost like they gave up on him and sent him off to Luke, like years ago somebody would send their kid off to a sanitarium. It's like they let their fears, denial (if Vader and the force) win.

What's also troubling is that a lot of people have kids who act out and then ship them off to get straightened out. But then those parents don't get into the whole story, instead focusing on the positive. Here they actually have a legitimate story. "My kid is becoming a Jedi," but they don't say it. It's like they have shame of his problems, and that is very sad. And of course he would sense that and would make his emotions worse. And honestly, when you think of him through this kind of lens, Adam's talk about Kylo feeling abandoned with powers he doesn't understand and feeling alone to navigate the world he doesn't understand (Snoke intrusion would provide a distorted pov) makes a lot of sense.

@Iseeanisland, yes, I get a sense that they love him, but have kind of washed their hands of him, like he has to be where he is, that nothing can change, that his capabilities are limited and that is that. There is of course Leia never considering hanging with Ben when she wants to retire. Also, in the book she makes sure that she tells Han first that she is running for First Senator, because for him to see it on the news would be "terrible." Yet she doesn't think it would be terrible for her son to get this news on the
news. Finally, up to where I have read so far, when Tai-Lin suggests that she might want to spend more time with her son and brother, she pivots and says, "Yes, I miss them, but really I was thinking of spending more time with my husband. She doesn't even give a cursory comment to spending time with Ben. But at the same time she thinks of Ben positively and is disappointed when he doesn't call after the bombing. It's like @snufkin says, he's like a puppy. She loves him intensely, but it's better that he is on the farm because he can't handle living in the city/apartment.

[ISeeAnIsland]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

@reylo1992

I think that's all very likely. You post just reminded me of another idea that I've had as far as young Ben goes.

We know that Kylo is very emotional. It's probably very likely that Ben was a very sensitive, emotional kid.

And what often happens to sensitive, emotional kids in a typical school setting? They become targets for other kids. They get bullied at worst or labeled "the weird kid" at best.

Mix the possibility of bullying in with a kid who has these super strong powers that he may or may not be able to control...and it kind of sounds like a recipe for disaster.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! This is the kind of thing that I was trying to get to in my earlier post. In fact, I have always had headcanon that Ben gets sent away after a bad reaction to a bully.

And in keeping with that, I am getting this impression that Han and Leia think that "he just can't handle things in a normal way. It's like he had multiple special needs diagnoses. First, he has emotional control problems. The book reiterates over and over that Leia has a temper. She also gets pissy and sour and defensive and aggressive and singleminded and zealous. These are all Anakin traits, and had she been trained, she might be rather Vader like herself. So let's assume Ben has that set of traits as well.

But then let's add on the Snoke/dark side interference which might involve dreams, voices, whispering, visions, etc. That would further mess with his emotional state in a way that would definitely scare Han and Leia, because it would seem dangerous (due to Vader history).

Finally, and this would be the most important "special need", Ben is a force prodigy with abilities no one ever heard of before *and* he awakens early.

As a result, you have this mentally abused (Snoke), Skywalker heir with abilities that he can't control and probably scare the s*** out of him too.

And this is where the rubber meets the road. Leia talks about her duty to the government. Han has uncontrollable wanderlust or whatever, but they have this kid who needs intense attention to be able to manage his powers and emotions

I have friends who have kids with special needs who have had to work like dogs and give up a lot for themselves, particularly when the kids are little, taking them to every therapy available, so when they are bigger the kids have had the neurological, speech, occupational, psychological therapy to handle life normally when older.

And as I was reading this book again, this felt like what was happening with Ben, but instead of going into the intense work with him themselves, which would have put a damper on their careers and which would have made them face their fears about Vader and Skywalker blood and the force head on, it's almost like they gave up on him and sent him off to Luke, like years ago somebody would send their kid off to a sanitarium. It's like they let their fears, denial (if Vader and the force) win.

What's also troubling is that a lot of people have kids who act out and then ship them off to get straightened out. But then those parents don't get into the whole story, instead focusing on the positive. Here they actually have a legitimate story. "My kid is becoming a Jedi," but they don't say it. It's like they have shame of his problems, and that is very sad. And of course he would sense that and would make his emotions worse. And honestly, when you think of him through this kind of lens, Adam's talk about Kylo feeling abandoned with powers he doesn't understand and feeling alone to navigate the world he doesn't understand (Snoke intrusion would provide a distorted pov) makes a lot of sense.

@Iseeanisland, yes, I get a sense that they love him, but have kind of washed their hands of him, like he has to be where he is, that nothing can change, that his capabilities are limited and that is that. There is of course Leia never considering hanging with Ben when she wants to retire. Also, in the book she makes sure that she tells Han first that she is running for First Senator, because for him to see it on the news would be "terrible." Yet she doesn't think it would be terrible for her son to get this news on the
news. Finally, up to where I have read so far, when Tai-Lin suggests that she might want to spend more time with her son and brother, she pivots and says, "Yes, I miss them, but really I was thinking of spending more time with my husband. She doesn't even give a cursory comment to spending time with Ben. But at the same time she thinks of Ben positively and is disappointed when he doesn't call after the bombing. It's like @snufkin says, he's like a puppy. She loves him intensely, but it's better that he is on the farm because he can't handle living in the city/apartment.

@SoloSideCousin

That's similar to what I was thinking, although in my headcanon, it was more like parents who send their seemingly out-of-control kid off to military school because they're not getting to the root of whatever is causing the behavior problems. Or the evangelical parents who can't deal with having a gay kid, so they send him off to reconditioning camp, rather than learning to accept who he is, etc.

[vaderito]

We don't know if Ben was a Carrie/Eleven but we know from Jason that he fell in with the wrong crowd due to perceived neglect. Jason didn't talk about it in a speculative way but like it's a real thing. So it appears that he has some inside info about that part of the story. Podcast 180:


http://makingstarwars.net/2017/05/episode-180-makingstarwars-nets-now-this-is-podcasting/

Courtesy of @ISeeAnIsland

* Around 56:00 or so, Pod People takes a Reylo question. Listener framed it as wanting her to be Luke's daughter, but basically said that he couldn't unsee that Kylo has "a massive boner" for Rey, and wanted to know if Rey could possibly be vulnerable to being seduced to the dark side by Kylo if she doesn't get along with Luke. Jason & co. mentioned the Phantom of the Opera concept art from TFA, but then for a while dodged the Reylo part of the question and concentrated on Luke. The interesting part (to me) of this is that they started drawing comparisons between Anakin and Kylo--mentioning Anakin getting taken away from his mother too young, and then drew a parallel with Kylo, saying that Ben was the son of these two highly successful people who weren't around enough, and he ended up falling in with bad crowds, and then got sent away to Luke.

[SoloSideCousin]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

@reylo1992

I think that's all very likely.  You post just reminded me of another idea that I've had as far as young Ben goes.

We know that Kylo is very emotional. It's probably very likely that Ben was a very sensitive, emotional kid.

And what often happens to sensitive, emotional kids in a typical school setting? They become targets for other kids. They get bullied at worst or labeled "the weird kid" at best.

Mix the possibility of bullying in with a kid who has these super strong powers that he may or may not be able to control...and it kind of sounds like a recipe for disaster.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! This is the kind of thing that I was trying to get to in my earlier post. In fact, I have always had headcanon that Ben gets sent away after a bad reaction to a bully.

And in keeping with that, I am getting this impression that Han and Leia think that "he just can't handle things in a normal way. It's like he had multiple special needs diagnoses.  First, he has emotional control problems. The book reiterates over and over that Leia has a temper. She also gets pissy and sour and defensive and aggressive and singleminded and zealous. These are all Anakin traits, and had she been trained, she might be rather Vader like herself. So let's assume Ben has that set of traits as well.

But then let's add on the Snoke/dark side interference which might involve dreams, voices, whispering, visions, etc. That would further mess with his emotional state in a way that would definitely scare Han and Leia, because it would seem dangerous (due to Vader history).

Finally, and this would be the most important "special need", Ben is a force prodigy with abilities no one ever heard of before *and* he awakens early.

As a result, you have this mentally abused (Snoke), Skywalker heir with abilities that he can't control and probably scare the s*** out of him too.

And this is where the rubber meets the road. Leia talks about her duty to the government.  Han has uncontrollable wanderlust or whatever, but they have this kid who needs intense attention to be able to manage his powers and emotions

I have friends who have kids with special needs who have had to work like dogs and give up a lot for themselves, particularly when the kids are little, taking them to every therapy available, so when they are bigger the kids have had the neurological, speech, occupational, psychological therapy to handle life normally when older.

And as I was reading this book again, this felt like what was happening with Ben, but instead of going into the intense work with him themselves, which would have put a damper on their careers and which would have made them face their fears about Vader and Skywalker blood and the force head on, it's almost like they gave up on him and sent him off to Luke, like years ago somebody would send their kid off to a sanitarium.  It's like they let their fears, denial (if Vader and the force) win.

What's also troubling is that a lot of people have kids who act out and then ship them off to get straightened out. But then those parents don't get into the whole story, instead focusing on the positive. Here they actually have a legitimate story. "My kid is becoming a Jedi," but they don't say it. It's like they have shame of his problems, and that is very sad.  And of course he would sense that and would make his emotions worse. And honestly, when you think of him through this kind of lens, Adam's talk about Kylo feeling abandoned with powers he doesn't understand and feeling alone to navigate the world he doesn't  understand (Snoke intrusion would provide a distorted pov) makes a lot of sense.

@Iseeanisland, yes, I get a sense that they love him, but have kind of washed their hands of him, like he has to be where he is, that nothing can change, that his capabilities are limited and that is that.  There is of course Leia never considering hanging with Ben when she wants to retire. Also, in the book she makes sure that she tells Han first that she is running for First Senator,  because for him to see it on the news would be "terrible." Yet she doesn't think it would be terrible for her son to get this news on the
news. Finally,  up to where I have read so far, when Tai-Lin suggests that she might want to spend more time with her son and brother, she pivots and says, "Yes, I miss them, but really I was thinking of spending more time with my husband. She doesn't even give a cursory comment to spending time with Ben. But at the same time she thinks of Ben positively and is disappointed when he doesn't call after the bombing. It's like @snufkin says, he's like a puppy. She loves him intensely, but it's better that he is on the farm  because he can't handle living in the city/apartment.

@SoloSideCousin

That's similar to what I was thinking, although in my headcanon, it was more like parents who send their seemingly out-of-control kid off to military school because they're not getting to the root of whatever is causing the behavior problems. Or the evangelical parents who can't deal with having a gay kid, so they send him off to reconditioning camp, rather than learning to accept who he is, etc.

@ISeeAnIsland

Right! And your choice of the word "accept" just keyed on a thought I just had eight now while getting ready for a barbeque. I could be wrong, but I wanted to get it down before I forget.  

I am starting to think that the whole theme of Bloodline is denial or lack of acceptance. When I say that I mean that Leia has never really faced the implications of her father. Yes, they are afraid of their son turning into Vader, they are afraid of the force, but she does everything and is almost obstinate about having a mindset that Vader is not her father and that he has nothing to do with her. I wouldn't want to claim Vader either, but you almost have to, to get past it. Not until the end does she ever ask the question of why Vader did what he did. Never once until the end does she wonder if she is like him in any way, when that's really a question you need to ask yourself.  Does she not use the force because that would mean acknowledging she was part of him? Does that why she hides Ben's abilities? Is she so driven by politics because that was Bail's way,  not Vader's. Does she hand her son off to Luke and hold him at arms length because her son is like her and maybe like Vader too, which then would mean she was like the father who tortured her on a floor and that is too horrible to face? The book continuously reiterates how she is traumatized in subtle but persistent ways. When she relives anything about Vader or Alderaan she is thrown hard, but she never lets herself truly feel it. Even with Alderaan she never lets herself cry, saying not crying has helped her get through. But in the end she is just burying all this stuff that she has never truly mourned or let herself fully experience and she has done a lot of it through work, and perhaps dealing head on with Ben wouldn't let her bury it, but it was too painful to face. I'm rambling a bit, and who knows where I am wrong, but I think that there is some truth here.  But in the end you never get to bury stuff like this forever. It always comes out somewhere and maybe her and Han's fear and lack of facing their "ugly" facts of life forced that "ugly" to manifest in their son.

[Birdwoman]

Thank you for writing this, I feel this is what is going on with Leia.

[snufkin]

@ISeeanIsland @SoloSideCousin @Birdwoman

That was my takeaway from reading Bloodline, that the writers were willing to "go there" in actually tackling what the implications were for merging Leia with the character of Luke's equally FS twin sister. Which I know has angered a lot of OT fans for supposedly ruining the happy ending. Personally speaking this OT fan is more than okay with it. Exploring these themes doesn't feel contrived because it's something that was really f**king significant for her character. It reveals that there's even more to her than how she was presented in the beginning. But then drops it other than the threat of Vader going after her causes Luke's final confrontation with Darkness. Like it doesn't matter what it means for her, it's just in service of Luke's story. Versus this route, which gives far more psychological depth to the characters. Leia's supposed to be tough and stoic given the cause she serves and how she was raised/trained by her adoptive father. Who comes off as somebody actually worthy of hero worship in light of Luke's daddy issues before and after learning the truth about his father. So that's what makes the book so interesting-  especially if there are implications for the ST about how they functioned as parents while trying to keep the ugly family business in the closet. There's even the moment where it's out and people are turning on her, where something is said wondering if the reason why their mother became pregnant was because he raped her. Because he was such an awful, evil person. Which shocked me at first, that it would be brought up in SW related book. But same thing, I was glad that they went there in actually treating the impact of Leia in being Vader's daughter in a way that comes off as more complicated/thoughtful/true than RotJ did.

The part about Ben falling in with a bad crowd could fit with some of the paternity themes raised in TFA. Which are meant to parallel ESB, but it's not really about Vader, it's about Han. Snoke never mentions Leia once during his dialogue, despite her being the offspring who passed Vader's DNA. But "too much Vader in him" is exactly like the "too much of his father in him" line in the first movie. It's Han's paternity which keeps getting brought up and we know that he's a scoundrel, reckless, has wanderlust, always thinks that he can bullshit his way out of situation, frequently gets in over his head, prone to being selfish, gets drawn into a completely different direction because he starts chasing after a headstrong, Force sensitive young woman, et cetera. As for falling in with a bad crowd, it's not hard to imagine that if he's anything like his dad, plus has his mother's Force powers.

[SoloSideCousin]

@ISeeanIsland @SoloSideCousin @Birdwoman

That was my takeaway from reading Bloodline, that the writers were willing to "go there" in actually tackling what the implications were for merging Leia with the character of Luke's equally FS twin sister. Which I know has angered a lot of OT fans for supposedly ruining the happy ending. Personally speaking this OT fan is more than okay with it. Exploring these themes doesn't feel contrived because it's something that was really f**king significant for her character. It reveals that there's even more to her than how she was presented in the beginning. But then drops it other than the threat of Vader going after her causes Luke's final confrontation with Darkness. Like it doesn't matter what it means for her, it's just in service of Luke's story. Versus this route, which gives far more psychological depth to the characters. Leia's supposed to be tough and stoic given the cause she serves and how she was raised/trained by her adoptive father. Who comes off as somebody actually worthy of hero worship in light of Luke's daddy issues before and after learning the truth about his father. So that's what makes the book so interesting-  especially if there are implications for the ST about how they functioned as parents while trying to keep the ugly family business in the closet. There's even the moment where it's out and people are turning on her, where something is said wondering if the reason why their mother became pregnant was because he raped her. Because he was such an awful, evil person. Which shocked me at first, that it would be brought up in SW related book. But same thing, I was glad that they went there in actually treating the impact of Leia in being Vader's daughter in a way that comes off as more complicated/thoughtful/true than RotJ did.

The part about Ben falling in with a bad crowd could fit with some of the paternity themes raised in TFA. Which are meant to parallel ESB, but it's not really about Vader, it's about Han. Snoke never mentions Leia once during his dialogue, despite her being the offspring who passed Vader's DNA. But "too much Vader in him" is exactly like the "too much of his father in him" line in the first movie. It's Han's paternity which keeps getting brought up and we know that he's a scoundrel, reckless, has wanderlust, always thinks that he can bullshit his way out of situation, frequently gets in over his head, prone to being selfish, gets drawn into a completely different direction because he starts chasing after a headstrong, Force sensitive young woman, et cetera. As for falling in with a bad crowd, it's not hard to imagine that if he's anything like his dad, plus has his mother's Force powers.

@snufkin

Right. I agree with all of this. I love how they are willing to "go there" too, because ROTJ is such a poorly defined story for all characters but Luke and completely unrealistic.

Further, these kind of the family issues with Han and Leia (suffering from their own fears and PTSD type symptoms) would not exclude the possibility of Ben joining a gang or bad crowd. In fact, these issues would make him joining a bad crowd more likely. Oftentimes kids join gangs because they are looking for a family of sorts, a loyal support system, and they do that because the home situation is not fulfulling that "family" need somehow.

[snufkin]

@SoloSideCousin - I always feel like I'm the supposed 'bad fan' for not being completely heart warmed by RotJ. But it honestly made me so angry as a kid to have them tease the whole "There is another" for 3 years, it turns out to be Leia, and in the end it's just in service of Luke's story. So personally I've been really impressed and interested by the fact that they were willing to actually tackle what the implications were. Including writing a book which shows how much more of an impact and sacrifice she's made her entire life for that society. Versus 40 years' of hero worship and stans for Mr Space Hippie who faffs off to an island when s**t gets bad.

I'm really curious to see whatever the "bad crowd" scenario is for Ben. Because it's not like his old man was a choir boy. Some of the "too much Vader" can almost come off like one of those couples' arguments over a kid where blame gets laid on the other partner's family.

[motherofpearl1]

Some great observations here.


I've posted this twice before
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sezin-koehler/complicating-good-vs-evil_b_9123592.html
but it's always worth another look, because the sad fact is many OT fans refuse to accept their fave characters had shortcomings but the plain truth is those shortcomings are there to see in the OT.
Han's sarcastic comment to Leia: "You're so busy giving orders you've forgotten to be a woman". Very sexist yes - but he had a point. Leia was consumed with her role as rebel leader, later with her role as politician. She had little time for anything else. Han was selfish - I love Han, always have, but he was at heart a mercenary. Now throw a child into the mix and what happens?
Mum's too busy. Dad wants to carry on enjoying life as a carefree pilot. Bad enough with an 'ordinary' kid but their child was anything but. Someone should have told Han to grow up and Leia to take time out to be a mother but where was the one person who could have?
Off forming a galactic monastery.
It's so easy to dismiss Kylo as an ungrateful child of privilege, but although he probably had plenty of wealth and material comforts I suspect he had little love and affection. The way he latches onto Rey is actually pitiful, he's so desperate for someone to understand him. He comes across as completely isolated and sadly by the time his parents realised how much he needed them ....it was too late.

What always impresses me is looking at the Vanity Fair pics....where Phasma and Hux appear as ruthless fanatics, both utterly comfortable in their roles and exactly where they want to be, Kylo just looks lost. He's a victim.

[rey09]

does anyone have the quote of what JJ said about kylo being neglected by his parents? I found the Adam quotes but I could have sworn there was also something from JJ...I think JJ even mentioned his own childhood and his parents' divorce. Tried looking for it online, can't find.

[motherofpearl1]

Didn't know that about JJ, but I'm pretty certain Adam had a difficult relationship with his parents. He's never said anything derogatory about them, but he did say they do not see much of each other - his exact words were: "They have their lives, I have mine"; and I was personally disturbed to read after he was medically discharged from the army they made him use the back entrance while he was living at home - and paying them $200 per month rent by the way.
Of course Adam quite rightly keeps his private life private, but I often wonder if some of his own hurt comes across in his performance, although of course he's a very intense actor anyway.
Sad,though.

Back to topic: although Kylo did a terrible thing in killing Han, it does irk me that some people insist he must ask for his mother's forgiveness when I think she should also ask for his - it's a shame we will never see such a scene on film, because I can just see Ben trying to apologise and Leia telling him that she should be the one to do it -mutual regret.
Even sadder.

[vaderito]

does anyone have the quote of what JJ said about kylo being neglected by his parents? I found the Adam quotes but I could have sworn there was also something from JJ...I think JJ even mentioned his own childhood and his parents' divorce. Tried looking for it online, can't find.

@rey09

I remember that quote but it's actually misquoted. Has nothing to do with JJ's parents and they were not divorced. His mother died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Abrams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_W._Abrams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Abrams

[Cowgirlsamurai]

Some great observations here.


I've posted this twice before
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sezin-koehler/complicating-good-vs-evil_b_9123592.html
but it's always worth another look, because the sad fact is many OT fans refuse to accept their fave characters had shortcomings but the plain truth is those shortcomings are there to see in the OT.
Han's sarcastic comment to Leia: "You're so busy giving orders you've forgotten to be a woman". Very sexist yes - but he had a point. Leia was consumed with her role as rebel leader, later with her role as politician. She had little time for anything else. Han was selfish - I love Han, always have, but he was at heart a mercenary. Now throw a child into the mix and what happens?
Mum's too busy. Dad wants to carry on enjoying life as a carefree pilot. Bad enough with an 'ordinary' kid but their child was anything but. Someone should have told Han to grow up and Leia to take time out to be a mother but where was the one person who could have?
Off forming a galactic monastery.
It's so easy to dismiss Kylo as an ungrateful child of privilege, but although he probably had plenty of wealth and material comforts I suspect he had little love and affection. The way he latches onto Rey is actually pitiful, he's so desperate for someone to understand him. He comes across as completely isolated and sadly by the time his parents realised how much he needed them ....it was too late.

What always impresses me is looking at the Vanity Fair pics....where Phasma and Hux appear as ruthless fanatics, both utterly comfortable in their roles and exactly where they want to be, Kylo just looks lost. He's a victim.

@motherofpearl1

That's an interesting article... It's definitely nice to read about others who sympathize with Kylo, but I think she demonizes other characters a bit too much to make her point. Specifically Leia (and at one point, Rey).

Sounds like she really wants Leia to die, possibly at the hands of her son. I don't think we could say that Leia is an all around horrible person. A poor mother, maybe. I imagine that Ben Solo was the kind of kid who had a nanny who he spent more time with than his parents. And would we call her power hungry? Dunno... The writer calls the first three Star Wars films terrible, so I guess that's why she doesn't have an ounce of sympathy for Leia or Han.  

I agree with what you had to say about it more than what the writer of that article did

[motherofpearl1]

No, I wouldn't call either of them 'horrible' and yes, I thought the author was a bit too hard on Han and Leia but in every other aspect she was right.

A lot of people love their kids, but fail to understand them and thus let them down. And sadly that was exactly what they did. Oddly, I think Leia was perhaps more to blame than Han because she herself had a very good childhood but he apparently didn't. Yet it was Han who made the ultimate sacrifice.
I always liked that line in TFA junior novel ...at the moment of his death 'Han forgave his son, and only hoped one day his son would forgive him'.

Powerful and moving stuff.

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@motherofpearl1

That article also fails to mention the biggest factor in Kylo's switch to the dark side: Snoke.
Lots of kids have bad parents and they don't turn in to villains. Kylo supposedly had that evil voice in his head his whole life. It's disturbing that Leia seemed aware of it and didn't do more. Actually, that makes Han's absence seem not so bad in comparison.

If I thought someone was f****ing with my kid, I'd do something about it TODAY.

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