Re: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors (the "now it's permanent" spoilers thread)

[snufkin]

Nope, still could care less about Luke, but more Phasma is promising. I'd be stoked if we get Laura Dern as Tracy Flick in Space and Phasma breaking the glass ceiling of villainy.

@snufkin

Yes!!

@motherofpearl1

Just watch the two of them together, especially her reaction to Carrie's comments about sleeping with the crew and weed. Like who wouldn't want to have those two team up to take over the galaxy?



I'm not even really all that excited about Laura Dern because her characters have always kind of bored me tbh, even the David Lynch roles (and her mother is far more charismatic when they're together in Wild at Heart). But sign me up for Phasma stepping all over Hux to take over control of the FO and scaring the pants off of Finn.

[motherofpearl1]

I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from fanboys...

[Irina de France]

All right, let's have a movie where Phasma, Leia, Rey and Rose take over the galaxy. They keep Poe, Finn and Kylo as arm candy

(I'll delete this later)

[ISeeAnIsland]

More pics of the Lego mini-fig for Admiral Holdo:

[Darth_Awakened]

More pics of the Lego mini-fig for Admiral Holdo:

@ISeeAnIsland

Classy!

[snufkin]

All right, let's have a movie where Phasma, Leia, Rey and Rose take over the galaxy. They keep Poe, Finn and Kylo as arm candy

(I'll delete this later)

@Irina de France

Ha! They can do a tie-in pinup calendar, like one of those cheesy firefighter fundraisers. Seriously though, out of all the characters you know that those two have the best chance of actually taking over and running the show.

I do like the additional new range of female characters from heroic/villainous leads to supporting characters because it just means more female characters in general. Like just having them around even in the background as Hux's minions or Stormtroopers, it's just more of a world where women are a part of it in different roles and it goes uncommented on. Which I think is some of how fans are neurotic about how Rey "has" to do this or that or how she "should" be a role model. Like instead of investing the lead character with the responsibility of being all things to all representations to her gender, it's actually much healthier to expand the scope to show it as being more like the real world, where women are different things and different people.

[SoloSideCousin]

Great list, @SoloSideCousin!  

I'am super curious about the Luke stuff - will it feature young Ben or not?

@Darth_Awakened

Yeah, me too! I was really shocked to see that Luke had a book coming up at all, and then to see older Luke on the front was really interesting.  I doubt that they will give anything about young man Ben, but we could get something of him as a little kid, especially if they want to emphasize that he was not born evil and/or someone was interfering with him all along.

@SoloSideCousin

The way I understand it, the Luke book is basically "not canon" in the sense that it's a compilation of stories told about Luke in the GFFA. So there may be some truth to it, but kind of like gossip in the real world, it's not reliable. Should be interesting though.

I'm most looking forward to the Leia YA novel, and the Phasma novel because of its author - the short story The Perfect Weapon is one of my favourite bits of writing in the new canon, and I'm thrilled Delilah S. Dawson is writing a full-length SW novel. She did so well with Bazine Netal that her version of Phasma is probably a thousand times more interesting than the film version. (Not that Gwendoline couldn't make her super interesting, I just doubt she gets much of a chance to do that.)

I'm trying to wean myself off buying every single canon thing that gets released. I'm trying to read only the books that interest me from now on. I've got too many books to read as it is; I really don't need Lucasfilm leeching all my time and money... *grumble, mumble*

Unfortunately I don't expect much illuminating info about the light and the dark from The Power of the Force, as it's a book for 6-8-year-olds. The past year and a half has taught me that though a good author can elevate a book into something interesting in its own right, not much thought and effort goes into the children's stuff canon-wise.

@Darth Dingbat

Have you or anyone else read Guardians of the Whills?  I just read it.  It's very quick, like a few months in the life of Chirrut and Baze, and I enjoyed it.  I found some things in it to be possibly Kylo-relevant and/or Force-relevant and/or to reflect the greyer tone that we started seeing in RO.  I'll put it in spoiler tags for now because I will be majorly spoiling the book here.

Spoiler:

[Kessel]

Great list, @SoloSideCousin!  

I'am super curious about the Luke stuff - will it feature young Ben or not?

@Darth_Awakened

Yeah, me too! I was really shocked to see that Luke had a book coming up at all, and then to see older Luke on the front was really interesting.  I doubt that they will give anything about young man Ben, but we could get something of him as a little kid, especially if they want to emphasize that he was not born evil and/or someone was interfering with him all along.

@SoloSideCousin

The way I understand it, the Luke book is basically "not canon" in the sense that it's a compilation of stories told about Luke in the GFFA. So there may be some truth to it, but kind of like gossip in the real world, it's not reliable. Should be interesting though.

I'm most looking forward to the Leia YA novel, and the Phasma novel because of its author - the short story The Perfect Weapon is one of my favourite bits of writing in the new canon, and I'm thrilled Delilah S. Dawson is writing a full-length SW novel. She did so well with Bazine Netal that her version of Phasma is probably a thousand times more interesting than the film version. (Not that Gwendoline couldn't make her super interesting, I just doubt she gets much of a chance to do that.)

I'm trying to wean myself off buying every single canon thing that gets released. I'm trying to read only the books that interest me from now on. I've got too many books to read as it is; I really don't need Lucasfilm leeching all my time and money... *grumble, mumble*

Unfortunately I don't expect much illuminating info about the light and the dark from The Power of the Force, as it's a book for 6-8-year-olds. The past year and a half has taught me that though a good author can elevate a book into something interesting in its own right, not much thought and effort goes into the children's stuff canon-wise.

@Darth Dingbat

Have you or anyone else read Guardians of the Whills?  I just read it.  It's very quick, like a few months in the life of Chirrut and Baze, and I enjoyed it.  I found some things in it to be possibly Kylo-relevant and/or Force-relevant and/or to reflect the greyer tone that we started seeing in RO.  I'll put it in spoiler tags for now because I will be majorly spoiling the book here.

Spoiler:

@SoloSideCousin

Thanks for posting this! I remember hearing about this book and I planned to read it...eventually. After reading your synopsis (spoilers and all), it's now definitely one of the next books on my list. Sounds very interesting. I love the focus on new Force lore and the light and dark dynamics.

[ReyofLightSide]

^ That's a great point @SoloSideCousin.

GOTW spoilers just in case:

[Moonlight13]

^ That's a great point @SoloSideCousin.

GOTW spoilers just in case:

@ReyofLightSide

That would be interesting to see.

[Kylo Men]

I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from fanboys...

Starting with mine.

[SoloSideCousin]

Okay, so because of the lull, I have started to reread Bloodline, and a kind of basic question has come to mind as I was reading the big where Leia's Senate friend asks why she never became a Jedi. In the conversation this Tai-Lin is aware Luke is her brother and that Luke is a Jedi. He also mentions that he knows force sensitivity can be inherited. He also seems to hold the role of Jedi in his esteem. Yet, she purposefully hides from her friend that her son is FS and is seemingly being trained to be a Jedi by Luke.

Why hide her son's force sensitivity and training when it sounds like it is a respectable thing to do in at least some folks eyes? I mean why is all of this a state secret? I mean everyone knows Luke is her brother and he's force sensitivity. It's like for all her love that Ben needs to be hidden away.

I also got a similar feeling when Lady Carise said that Ben would be the governor of Birren. Leia does say that he wouldn't be interested, but the sentence just before says that Leia looked like she's aged when Carise mentions Ben being governor ... So there is some kind of anxiety there. I don't think it's necessarily Ben being power hungry either though. It almost feel like something like how families in the old days would send their mentally ill kid away to some country relatives for their own good. :-( Like the person can't handle themselves in regular society ie something.

So is Ben actually exhibiting mental problems or is his force so out of control? Is Snoke like a Rasputin who promises to cure his torments?

I don't know. I am just writing here, but why hide your son basically going off to the priesthood or monastery?

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

[vaderito]

OK, so Sands of Jakku confirmed that they are mining the hell out of Dune:



Paul awakens


Rey awakens



Shai Hulud (sandworm)



Sandworm of Jakku

That's on top of:



Alia needs her villanous, dead grandfather's help to keep her sanity 



Kylo needs his villanous, dead grandfather's help to keeps his sanity



Alia and Ben awaken in their mother's wombs, immediately fall under dark influences.

[motherofpearl1]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

[Saracene]

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

That made me think of How Frozen Should Have Ended

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

Seems like Luke could've filled the Professor X role, but we don't know how he treated Ben yet  It sounds like he had no one to sympathize with him and his "abilities" growing up. Maybe his parents tried to suppress them until he was a teenager and they couldn't control him anymore, so they said, "Luke, you deal with him."

[IoJovi]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

Seems like Luke could've filled the Professor X role, but we don't know how he treated Ben yet  It sounds like he had no one to sympathize with him and his "abilities" growing up. Maybe his parents tried to suppress them until he was a teenager and they couldn't control him anymore, so they said, "Luke, you deal with him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

Just because someone excels at something, like in Luke's case with the Force, doesn't make them a great teacher. I think Rey is going to learn this as well. Remember Daisy Ridley's quote about meeting your heroes and realizing they're not at all how you imagined? I think Rey is going to empathize with Ben/Kylo in more ways than one.

[spacebaby45678]

OK, so Sands of Jakku confirmed that they are mining the hell out of Dune:



Paul awakens


Rey awakens



Shai Hulud (sandworm)



Sandworm of Jakku

That's on top of:



Alia needs her villanous, dead grandfather's help to keep her sanity 



Kylo needs his villanous, dead grandfather's help to keeps his sanity



Alia and Ben awaken in their mother's wombs, immediately fall under dark influences.

@vaderito

Yass!! Spot on. Paul had visions about the future, Paul's prescience begins manifesting itself through dreams while he is still living in his ancestral home on the planet Caladan; he sees Chani in these visions, though they have not yet met.

[motherofpearl1]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

Seems like Luke could've filled the Professor X role, but we don't know how he treated Ben yet  It sounds like he had no one to sympathize with him and his "abilities" growing up. Maybe his parents tried to suppress them until he was a teenager and they couldn't control him anymore, so they said, "Luke, you deal with him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

I thought the same about Luke but I wonder if his mistake was trying to force the Dark Side out of him? I can't help but think that someone like Charles Xavier would have instead taught him to accept that side of him and that having such traits did not make someone evil.

In some ways Ben was like a young Magneto - full of hurt and anger,yet Charles did not for one moment give up on his friend.

Perhaps Luke should have tried something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHksDAB9vOo

[motherofpearl1]

OK, so Sands of Jakku confirmed that they are mining the hell out of Dune:



Paul awakens


Rey awakens



Shai Hulud (sandworm)



Sandworm of Jakku

That's on top of:



Alia needs her villanous, dead grandfather's help to keep her sanity 



Kylo needs his villanous, dead grandfather's help to keeps his sanity



Alia and Ben awaken in their mother's wombs, immediately fall under dark influences.

@vaderito

Yass!! Spot on. Paul had visions about the future, Paul's prescience begins manifesting itself through dreams while he is still living in his ancestral home on the planet Caladan; he sees Chani in these visions, though they have not yet met.

@spacebaby45678

I did hear somewhere Dune was the inspiration for A New Hope, but Lucas still managed to make it original.

[vaderito]

@spacebaby45678 Good call on Paul's vision of Chani before they met. 

@motherofpearl1 Dune was one of many inspirations for Lucas. The Desert Messiah trope was certainly it, another being special powers. 

However, ST looks like they are turning it up a notch. Not only that Rey has more similarities with Paul than Luke, and Kylo with Alia, but Aftermath gives Jakku a great importance. What of "Jakku was important 1000 years ago and will be again" as well as other stuff.

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

Seems like Luke could've filled the Professor X role, but we don't know how he treated Ben yet  It sounds like he had no one to sympathize with him and his "abilities" growing up. Maybe his parents tried to suppress them until he was a teenager and they couldn't control him anymore, so they said, "Luke, you deal with him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

Just because someone excels at something, like in Luke's case with the Force, doesn't make them a great teacher.  I think Rey is going to learn this as well.  Remember Daisy Ridley's quote about meeting your heroes and realizing they're not at all how you imagined?  I think Rey is going to empathize with Ben/Kylo in more ways than one.

@IoJovi

Right, but Luke did have students at one time, although we know that that all went to hell. TFA makes it sound like evil Kylo suddenly went rogue and took everyone out at righteous Uncle Luke's school. But as people here have speculated, while well meaning, perhaps Luke's teachings were too strict, severe, or perhaps just misguided, and that (along with Snoke's) influence drove Kylo to the dark side. Rey will figure all of it out in TLJ. I hope Kylo's the one to tell her. Perhaps in a certain exploding hut scene 

[reylo1992]

@SoloSideCousin

Perhaps Ben had already exhibited some scary powers at that point, which is why he was sent off with Luke. Then if people know her son is FS and then he goes dark that would look bad for her politically? Maybe they'd discover her link to Vader? Just speculation, could be a stretch...

But yeah, I feel like, though they love him, Ben is the child they never wanted, and they kind of talk about him, maybe even treat him as such 

@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the impression they were uncomfortable with his abilities, Leia because of who her father was, Han was simply uncomfortable with the Force. I find it so sad and ironic that they sent Ben off to prevent him becoming like Vader - and he ended up trying to be just that.

What Ben needed was someone like Professor X.

@motherofpearl1

I bet that Leia and Han rather wanted to have their grow up like a normal kid. It seems that they sent him away only in the last resort. However, I don't think that it necessarily implies that Ben made something really wrong. In someway, the teenage Ben that I imagine looks very alike like Hercules. Someone who couldn't be part of the "normal human" world because he showed incredible strenghth and Force abilities that maybe led some problematic situations against his own will. Even for a Force user, Ben/Kylo displays incredible and never-seen Force abilities:

[ISeeAnIsland]

Okay, so because of the lull, I have started to reread Bloodline, and a kind of basic question has come to mind as I was reading the big where Leia's Senate friend asks why she never became a Jedi. In the conversation this Tai-Lin is aware Luke is her brother and that Luke is a Jedi. He also mentions that he knows force sensitivity can be inherited. He also seems to hold the role of Jedi in his esteem. Yet, she purposefully hides from her friend that her son is FS and is seemingly being trained to be a Jedi by Luke.

Why hide her son's force sensitivity and training when it sounds like it is a respectable thing to do in at least some folks eyes? I mean why is all of this a state secret? I mean everyone knows Luke is her brother and he's force sensitivity. It's like for all her love that Ben needs to be hidden away.

I also got a similar feeling when Lady Carise said that Ben would be the governor of Birren. Leia does say that he wouldn't be interested, but the sentence just before says that Leia looked like she's aged when Carise mentions Ben being governor ... So there is some kind of anxiety there. I don't think it's necessarily Ben being power hungry either though. It almost feel like something like how families in the old days would send their mentally ill kid away to some country relatives for their own good. :-( Like the person can't handle themselves in regular society ie something.

So is Ben actually exhibiting mental problems or is his force so out of control? Is Snoke like a Rasputin who promises to cure his torments?

I don't know. I am just writing here, but why hide your son basically going off to the priesthood or monastery?

@SoloSideCousin

Well, we know that something bad happened that caused Leia to send Ben to Luke. From what we know of him so far, I doubt it was being power hungry, but it could have been an out-of-control temper or something that we've gotten glimpses of.

We've heard rumblings that Ben "fell in with a bad crowd" (MSW) and was "an extremely difficult child" (or something similar--that was from JJ), and I think we might have had a situation where Ben was doing the typical teenage rebellion thing, but possibly with Force powers that he might not have been able to control. Possibly Han and Leia projected their "Vader" fears onto him and made it worse.

Since you're re-reading it, maybe you can comment, but I remember getting the vibe from Bloodline that Han and Leia had sort of washed their hands of Ben at that point--I got a sense of denial like "Well, Luke is dealing with it now".

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