Predictions for Episode 9

nickandnora wrote:So, there's a ton of discussion in the Star Wars: Rebels thread (which I have never watched) about a currently non-existent plot point where Ben had a girlfriend at Luke's Jedi camp who he may/may not have lost his (metaphorical?) virginity to, lol. Like I said, since I have NO IDEA about Star Wars: Rebels, I'm bringing this idea over here because it made me think of my predictions and I wanted to add to them/expand on them.

There are a few KEY things that I think happen in IX (and perhaps I don't have a ton of evidence for them happening, but thematically they make sense). 1. I think Hux literally hoists Kylo from power using his own Knights of Ren against him, 2. I think he gets one of those Knights of Ren to impersonate Kylo using the costume. Now, I've seen it mentioned that Snoke may have trained one other apprentice in addition to Kylo, and this kind of fits in with this idea (like possibly the one who usurps his costume is Snoke's other apprentice). Furthermore, I've also seen it mentioned that supplementary material suggests that one of the KoR is a girl? This also fits.

So why does it all fit? Well, as to whether Kylo/Ben was ever "with" anyone before Rey... SW Connection podcast ladies, I'm going to defer to something one of you said in one of your literary comparison episodes. The "dark" side CAN BE a metaphor for things like: giving into sexual temptations, sexual debauchery, becoming debased, etc. Because when we're talking about this story as a sexual awakening, I think (personally) we're mainly talking about that aspect from Rey's perspective. Because Ben is the one who is already "fallen" I think we can assume (again METAPHORICALLY) that Kylo has already "dabbled" because that's the whole point of his character. That he's "given in" to temptation and fallen in with the dark side. Rey is the one who will "bring him back" by acting as an example and perhaps making him recognize "pure" love once more.

At the same time however, because this ST is very much about a truer definition of balance, there's going to be some aspect of Rey embracing certain things that can be categorized under the "dark side" of the force, things that aren't actually *bad*. Sex, passion, attraction... all that stuff. She's going to "give in" a little, I'm sure. If that makes sense.

OK, what does this have to do with a female KoR/camp student? So, I have this idea that IF I'm right that Snoke has an apprentice who takes over Kylo's costume, that there's going to be a confrontation between that person and Rey, which ends in her tearing off the mask to reveal that it's NOT Kylo/Ben, but... *gasp* another chick? Wearing Rey's boyfriend's *clothes*?! Hells.no (lol). This confrontation would end in defeat of this "other woman" at the hands of Rey and (this is my strong, strong guess) Rey donning the mask of Kylo (likely for some practical purpose like diversion or escape). But the metaphor would be clear: "He's mine now." Does that make sense?

Maybe this is a really longwinded way of saying the following: as to whether Ben was "with" anyone at Jedi camp or afterwards before Rey came along... I mean, the answer is probably all three of: yes, no, and it doesn't matter because it's metaphorical until they say otherwise. I have NO PROBLEM with them revealing that Snoke's second apprentice was a female KoR who was slightly older than Ben, who put certain suggestions in his mind as to the seductive qualities of the dark side, temptations that he "gave into." I mean, it makes sense for the story. And maybe they will tell that story in the future, the story of Luke's Jedi camp and what actually went on there and they can be more blatant about whether or not the "fall" Ben experienced was symbolic or actually physical or whatever, but I think the point with the ST will be that it doesn't really matter. It's a metaphor.

Now don't get me wrong, there are points in SW where I think they do/will tip their hat to the idea that: "Yes, these two characters had a sexual relationship." Once someone becomes pregnant, then it's obvious, lol. And I do think that they're going to tell us that Ben/Rey had a family together in some kind of epilogue. More than that, because they've been so heavy-handed with the sexual symbolism between the two, I also think they're going to give some kind of "payoff" for the adults even before then (that the children in the audience won't precisely pick up on) that lets us know: "These two are going to have sex now." My guess? The easiest, most "innocent" and yet obvious way to do this is to recreate what happened when these two first met: the bridal carry. Ben bridal carries Rey again at the end, but this time into the Millennium Falcon (or whatever). It's under totally different circumstances. It's circular, classically romantic, obvious and yet not even slightly explicit. But the adults get it. Done.

My overall point is that in the ST itself, I don't think they will blatantly try to tell us that Ben/Rey ever had a sexual relationship with anyone else, because it's not necessary tonally. We can fill in the blanks. What they do in other mediums (TV, other films, etc.) is up for grabs in the future, but I won't care at that point because I'm not into supplementary stuff, personally.

DeeBee wrote:
@nickandnora
Hi nickandnora!
Interesting thoughts! Yeah I think SW will always go with addressing sex as subtext. I must say the force/dark/light has so many sexual connotations that as a child went right over my head! lol.

Your prediction that Hux dresses up a KOR as Kylo Ren to impersonate him is super interesting! Especially if at first the audience doesn’t know it.

The idea of someone creating a persona – and then having that persona hijacked and turned against them is the main plot of the recent one-shot DJ comic. I got curious the other day and actually read it on youtube. Lol. [Bit of a yawn but then I didn’t spend $$ anyway..]
In it, DJ has created this fictional big bad called Denel Strench. He says the name is an anagram for his real name  – it is an alternative identity for DJ… Everyone (cops, security, mobsters etc.) are referring to this Denel Strench as a mysterious and dangerous criminal mastermind who is dangerous to everyone- including DJ (not unlike Keyser Söze in the Usual Suspects movie).
DJ eventually figures out that he has lost control of his Denel Strench persona – it is taken over by a vengeful droid and gets turned against him…

I think tricking Rey with the impersonation would not work because she would sense it was not him. Or she would at least be on high alert that it felt different and wrong somehow. That energy that always passes between them would be absent. But super fun to play with this idea!

princessmoon wrote:The novelization is pointing so heavily to a coup d'etat by Hux. He's constantly trying to undermine Kylo, dreaming of power, and even thinking of defeating Snoke himself. There's also cameras/spies in Snoke's elevator. Ooh........

Moonlight13 wrote:

princessmoon wrote:The novelization is pointing so heavily to a coup d'etat by Hux. He's constantly trying to undermine Kylo, dreaming of power, and even thinking of defeating Snoke himself. There's also cameras/spies in Snoke's elevator. Ooh........

@princessmoon
True. He imagined himself being "Supreme Leader Hux".

MyOnlyHope wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
[Truncated quote- for full quote see here: http://reylo.skyforum.net/t740-positive-thoughts-for-ix-the-reylo-edition]
...Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

...

@FrolickingFizzgig
In support, a quote from Kathleen Kennedy in which she underlines the three act structure that's being followed with the ST.

“There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned.”

nickandnora wrote:
...I too think that Rey would know in her heart that it's *not* Ben, but I like the idea that she'd not able to give it too much thought if she and this fake Kylo Ren were engaged in some kind of brutal fight. Like, if she could stop and *think* for a second she would know it's not Ben, but she'd be busy having to defend herself and win the fight that if she struck a killing blow to (him) she might have a split second where she thought she *actually* killed him. Angst! But then she rips off the helmet at the true identity of the person is revealed. I think that would be really cool.

DeeBee wrote:hiya! Finding my way back into the positive thoughts for IX reylo thread yesterday, I was reminded of the graphic @FrolickingFizzgig shared.. I got to think about the structure we'll see in IX. I wanted to ask a question to all the learned educated fans here...
I hope this thread is an okay place to ask this - I figure it is about making predictions based on literary structure, but if not.. feel free to move me mods. And sorry to create work. lol.

MyOnlyHope wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
[Truncated quote- for full quote see here: http://reylo.skyforum.net/t740-positive-thoughts-for-ix-the-reylo-edition]
...Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

...

@FrolickingFizzgig
In support, a quote from Kathleen Kennedy in which she underlines the three act structure that's being followed with the ST.

“There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned.”

@MyOnlyHope

This KK quote was new to me, so I'm glad @californiagirl asked for the link and that @MyOnlyHope shared it...
I had a read of the article and followed the link to another article that had a more complete quote from KK:
"There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned," she said. "But we do try hard to have these films stand on their own, so you're not just feeling like you got dropped in the middle of something, but it's actually promising something more and maybe even something better."
[source: http://www.looper.com/58236/star-wars-spin-off-movies/ ]

So my question for all you literary educated about telling stories types [This is not my area of expertise at all]
With the structure above, and the quote from KK how does all this fit together? I'm a little confused about what story structure to expect across the ST and what story structure to expect across episode IX alone. Help?
or is it some stories are across the ST and some are treated as within episode alone? or are some stories both? and how does that then work with the structure?
I would love to learn from you guys who are knowledgeable about this stuff if anyone would like to share their thoughts!

Is it possible IX will start with the Reylo story in the Final Push/winning you back stage?

nickandnora wrote:
...I too think that Rey would know in her heart that it's *not* Ben, but I like the idea that she'd not able to give it too much thought if she and this fake Kylo Ren were engaged in some kind of brutal fight. Like, if she could stop and *think* for a second she would know it's not Ben, but she'd be busy having to defend herself and win the fight that if she struck a killing blow to (him) she might have a split second where she thought she *actually* killed him. Angst! But then she rips off the helmet at the true identity of the person is revealed. I think that would be really cool.

@nickandnora
-just replying to this bit specificially nickandnora, hope that's okay.
Whoa!!! I can just imagine the cheeky banter between Kylo/Ben and Rey when he finds out she struck down 'Kylo Ren'  Kylo to Rey: Hhmm you were pretty darn confident that was not me!!! How did you know it was not me? You didn't feel that intense overwhelming animalistic sexual tension with him huh!!!
I can just imagine Han Solo saying something similar to Leia! We could even have Rey reply along the lines of 'I don't know where you get your delusions laserbrain'! ...With Chewie chuckling away in the background.
Quite possibly the best Han/Leia scene ever!
here is the scene on youtube:

snufkin wrote:This is really good, including multiple shout outs to the writings/podcasting of various members here. Wouldn't be surprised if he lurks here and sounds like he's listened to the Jane Eyre podcast and has thoughts along those lines.

No One’s Ever Really Gone: The Synergy of The Heroic, Tragic, and Poetic Arcs in the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy

When confronting how to approach the Sequel Trilogy, the first thing I assume they established was using the three films to reverse the tragedy of Anakin’s fall. So, in some ways, they found themselves hemmed in by what had come before, but also had some serious decisions to make concerning a final element: by subverting the tragic trope, it makes the narrative of the tragedy inapplicable, and it must be supplanted by something else. Also, because the poetic device used to reverse prior stanzas is palindrome, all major elements and roles needed to be reversed. That leads to a few conclusions that explain a LOT.

In reversing Anakin’s fall, the same tragic archetypes must be used for the new characters. However, because of the palindrome, the production’s hand was forced in a few areas. First, the heroic role had to be the female counterpart to the Usurper, taking the tragic figure out of the Hero’s role. This is key. If the tragic figure is not the capital-h Hero, the tragedy can be avoided if the Hero/Heroine’s Journey overrides the tragic conclusions.

.......

The Heroine’s Journey differs fundamentally from the Hero’s Journey in that the Heroine is much more attuned to the Shadow than a Hero, gaining mastery over the darkness through understanding instead of conflict. Another important distinction is the Heroine’s Journey’s interest in family, and the transition from childhood to womanhood to motherhood. Where the Hero’s Journey is more anodyne and chaste, the Heroine’s Journey is explicitly a journey of sexual awakening, with one of the elements including marriage to the Animus (often portrayed as Prince Charming, et al), and eventual consummation and sexual union with him. The Animus is a true counterpart, representing the yin to her yang, completing the whole, and this relationship is essential in the Heroine’s Journey.

There are many examples of conflation of elements in the Heroine’s Journey, and here, as in Beauty and the Beast, Kylo Ren is both an agent of the Shadow, and the Heroine’s Animus. Because the Heroine must confront and overcome the Shadow, and also wed the Animus, the major conflict of her Journey becomes freeing her lover from the Shadow’s influence.

Fairy tale offers a lot of rich territory to mine, but it’s short on substance. This is where narrative structure comes into play. You have the poetic goal, the tragic character archetypes, and the Heroine’s Journey running through it. But what structure will the story adopt?

This is the point where my analysis of the synergies of these elements hit a snag, even though it was staring me right in the damn face: the story is being told as a Byronic gothic romance. The first response to this might be: why? Because Star Wars uses what works. And the Byronic tradition is perhaps the most effective and emotionally resonant model that employs a capital-h Heroine with a tragic lover who must be freed from the darkness.

........

Gothic romances very often end in tragedy (see Wuthering Heights), but only when there is no true capital-h Heroine to drive the narrative. When there is no true heroic figure, tragic flaws will rule the day in stories heavily tilted toward tragic ends. But in this iteration of Star Wars, we have a Heroine, whose mythic archetype and narrative role are tied up in the redemption of her lover, and since she’s on a Heroine’s Journey, and doesn’t have a tragic flaw herself, the rules of the game dictate she has to triumph.

......
With this formula, it becomes very possible to game out what will happen in Episode IX with a startling degree of specificity. Remember, this is my interpretation, applying the formula I’ve detailed above and supplementing my own personal conjecture and assumptions as necessary. So, again acknowledging that some of these basic predictions have been made before, here goes:

Rey and Kylo will remain severed in their bond for the first part of the movie. They must be made to feel the sting of loneliness and recognize the incompletion only cured by the other’s presence in their lives.

Rey will find solace in her new family for awhile, but will not be able to replace the feeling of belonging and completion she feels with Kylo. This longing will act as a real source of conflict and represent a constant struggle to stave off the Shadow (the Dark Side).

Supreme Leader Kylo Ren will try to convince himself that he only used Rey to help him usurp Snoke’s throne, if only as an attempt to shield himself from the reality that he has been abandoned by his Queen, and will continue to seek her, but probably use the excuse of pursuing the Resistance as justification.

The Knights of Ren will appear as Kylo’s personal honor guard and act as military commanders as well, another poke in the eye to General Hux. The Knights will represent Kylo’s stated ideal to begin a new order of Force users, one that has its basis in the Dark Side. If this is the case, I foresee Rey tangling with at least one of them in the front half of the movie (she’ll probably kill the Knight, having no other choice, and giving the other Knights a vengeance incentive to track her down and kill her).

Leia’s death will cause a real shift in the status quo for both Rey and Kylo, as the shock of her passing will leave them both vulnerable. I assume this will cause the Force to join them, and they will have a reckoning about their parting and an acknowledgment/reinforcement of the feelings they have for each other (though it’s likely this will still remain implicit for the time being). Unless they go for the gold and have them initiate physical contact through the Force again, only this time without Uncle Luke outside the door (the tragic trope suggests physical contact here due to the loss of the Usurper’s birth mother, but that could be toned down or delayed for dramatic effect). It’s also entirely possible that this could actually be an in-person meeting, but I doubt that for plot reasons.

Rey’s connection with Kylo will be revealed to the Resistance. Not sure how this will happen exactly, but its effect will be to cause separation and distrust between Rey and her adopted family.

The consequences of the revelation of the Force Bond to the Resistance will cause the rebels to make a fatal mistake. The First Order will move to finish the Resistance, and this time it’ll be for good.

About this time, Kylo is going to find himself in the midst of some extreme conflict. The pull to the Light will be stronger than ever, and I anticipate he will call once more to Vader for guidance. Typically, Sith cannot be Force Ghosts, but Anakin was redeemed, so his spirit endures. I anticipate it will be a riven, tortured existence, and we’ll get some spectacular visual effect that shifts his ghost from blue to red, with the red one maimed, burned, and scarred. This experience will shake him to his foundations.

For her part, I wrestled with whether Rey would also receive supernatural guidance from Luke’s Force Ghost, but I’ve come down on the side of that not being the case. Rey is past the point in the Heroine’s Journey where she’s looking to father figures for guidance. Rey’s reconciliation with the mother figure will probably have to come through some form of interaction with something left behind by Leia, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Maz Kanata reprise her quest giver role in a more motherly capacity, with a symbolic or literal passing of the torch, so to speak.

Having made his decision (“I know what I have to do” part 3?), Kylo will attempt to sabotage the First Order’s assault from the inside. This attempt will not go as planned (Kylo’s not much of a planner), and Hux’s long-anticipated coup will spring into action.

Having learned of his betrayal, the Knights of Ren will turn on Kylo, each of them having been trained to seek power over all else. I expect some of them will go with the assault force (which was at least partially successfully f**** up by Kylo’s attempt at sabotage— something that the Resistance will know was his doing), while the rest lie in wait to ambush Kylo as he goes to either escape or re-establish control.

During his fight with the Knights, Kylo will be badly wounded, but will manage to escape. Having made his way as far as he can on his own, he’ll either consciously or unconsciously call out to Rey through the Force.

Rey will hear his call and will go to him, and I expect that will be over the objection of her friends, and may result in Rey threatening violence against one of them (Finn, probably) if they try to stop her (still on the fence about this).

Finding him wounded, Rey and Kylo’s reunion will be cut short by the remaining Knights of Ren. Rey will fight them and hold her own for awhile, but will soon be overpowered, and an injured Kylo will join the fight and save her life. Together they’ll finish off the remaining Knights, thus bringing an early end to the new order.

Meanwhile, Hux and the First Order, having been more debilitated by Kylo’s betrayal than it first appeared, are losing to a resurgent Resistance fleet. Hux’s brief tenure as Supreme Leader will end in ignominy, his death coming in as humiliating a fashion as befits the smallness of his character.

The defeat of the First Order will be attended by Something Very Bad (I haven’t a clue as to what that could be, but suffice it to say I anticipate it would be some kind of kamikaze self-destruct protocol that’ll threaten both the Resistance fleet and a massive number of civilians).

Rey and Kylo, able to see this Something Very Bad happening from their vantage, will risk everything to save everyone else, and do something with the Force, working together, that will blow our minds. Like stop a Star Destroyer from falling on a city, or something equally as impossible. I expect this will involve them coming together physically (probably holding hands), to juxtapose them being separated at the end of TFA and TLJ.

The Resistance will be saved, and the First Order decimated beyond reckoning. Those who witnessed it know they were saved by the Force, and the only two people capable of wielding it in such a way.

Dar-ren19 wrote:Who is the blogger @snufkin?

DeeBee wrote:

Dar-ren19 wrote:Who is the blogger @snufkin?

@Dar-ren19

Hi Dar-ren19, the blogger is Wayne Kelley - and the blog is called 'A Handful of Dust'
Here is the link.. it's the same: http://marquissynd.blogspot.com.au/2018/02/no-ones-ever-really-gone-synergy-of.html?m=1

rawpowah wrote:So there are hints in the novelization that Finn's goal in IX will be to get stormtroopers to abandon the FO (which are corroborated by the deleted scenes in TLJ). So maybe there is a chance we will see some kind of stormtrooper rebellion in the next movie. How do you think this will play out in IX and how will this relate to Kylo as Supreme Leader? If this rebellion happens, do you think it will happen while Kylo is still in power? What measures might Kylo take as Supreme Leader at the start of the story as far as stormtroopers are concerned? I think we know Hux's position on the matter already. I'm trying to figure out how Kylo will fit into all of this, since I'd say it's a given that Finn will be successful if JJ makes the rebellion happen.

Night Huntress wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So there are hints in the novelization that Finn's goal in IX will be to get stormtroopers to abandon the FO (which are corroborated by the deleted scenes in TLJ). So maybe there is a chance we will see some kind of stormtrooper rebellion in the next movie. How do you think this will play out in IX and how will this relate to Kylo as Supreme Leader? If this rebellion happens, do you think it will happen while Kylo is still in power? What measures might Kylo take as Supreme Leader at the start of the story as far as stormtroopers are concerned? I think we know Hux's position on the matter already. I'm trying to figure out how Kylo will fit into all of this, since I'd say it's a given that Finn will be successful if JJ makes the rebellion happen.

@rawpowah

I finished the novel yesterday- I need to read it again to really get all details but my personal opinion based on what I think is hinted at... maybe the FO will split into two factions.

Hux want power and wanted to lead the FO even while Snoke was still alive, but he isn't really respected - at least not among the older, experienced military officers. I'm not sure they would prefer him over Kylo to be honest. If Kylo can get his sh** together in IX and be more reasonable I'm sure part of the military leadership would side with him.

So what advantage would Hux have? The Stormtrooper army...if the revolt- well that could get interesting.

californiagirl wrote:Also can Kylo wear something other than black on black on black? Please? A nice blue or green perhaps? Indicating he isn't the evilest of evils?

Teo oswald wrote:

californiagirl wrote:Also can Kylo wear something other than black on black on black? Please? A nice blue or green perhaps? Indicating he isn't the evilest of evils?

@californiagirl

Luke has gone from white to gray and finally to black

We saw Ben had white clothes, so it is possible that we will see him again, a style similar to Han or Anakin? I would not mind, we will see ... in any case Ben Solo is fine with everything

When we look at our own lives, it all depends on the choices we’ve made. Kylo Ren seems to have taken many bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of Star Wars, where they can lead to almost anything. This story reflects the real world. Many kids evolve in a political environment that can be difficult to decipher, and many events suggest that people are drawn to danger, trouble and agitation. In terms of international policy, there’s a sense that we live a time full of upheavals. The political structure of the Star Wars narratives reflects this in a unique way. Kylo Ren represents this dark side of society that can be appealing when we don’t know which side to choose and right and wrong become very vague concepts. All these aspects make Kylo Ren a really complex character and offer us many different options for future plots.”

californiagirl wrote:Also can Kylo wear something other than black on black on black? Please? A nice blue or green perhaps? Indicating he isn't the evilest of evils?

TLJ Novel blurb:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

DeeBee wrote:hiya! Finding my way back into the positive thoughts for IX reylo thread yesterday, I was reminded of the graphic @FrolickingFizzgig shared.. I got to think about the structure we'll see in IX. I wanted to ask a question to all the learned educated fans here...
I hope this thread is an okay place to ask this - I figure it is about making predictions based on literary structure, but if not.. feel free to move me mods. And sorry to create work. lol.

MyOnlyHope wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
[Truncated quote- for full quote see here: http://reylo.skyforum.net/t740-positive-thoughts-for-ix-the-reylo-edition]
...Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

...

@FrolickingFizzgig
In support, a quote from Kathleen Kennedy in which she underlines the three act structure that's being followed with the ST.

“There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned.”

@MyOnlyHope

This KK quote was new to me, so I'm glad @californiagirl asked for the link and that @MyOnlyHope shared it...
I had a read of the article and followed the link to another article that had a more complete quote from KK:
"There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned," she said. "But we do try hard to have these films stand on their own, so you're not just feeling like you got dropped in the middle of something, but it's actually promising something more and maybe even something better."
[source: http://www.looper.com/58236/star-wars-spin-off-movies/ ]

So my question for all you literary educated about telling stories types [This is not my area of expertise at all]
With the structure above, and the quote from KK how does all this fit together? I'm a little confused about what story structure to expect across the ST and what story structure to expect across episode IX alone. Help?
or is it some stories are across the ST and some are treated as within episode alone? or are some stories both? and how does that then work with the structure?
I would love to learn from you guys who are knowledgeable about this stuff if anyone would like to share their thoughts!

Is it possible IX will start with the Reylo story in the Final Push/winning you back stage?

@DeeBee

If you go with IX starting off w/Ben in Benporer (not Renporer) mode, like Darcy after Lizzie rejected his first proposal, that absolutely fits with the "Winning you back" spot in this story structure.